'Neither can live while the other survives'

[PrettyMS.Potter]

Originally Posted by JKR
In "COS" what would of happen if Ginny Died and Tom Riddle escaped the Diary?

JKR: I can't answer that until all 7 books are finished BUT it would have strenthened the present day voldemort considerably.


My ohh my, that is a great question and an even better answer!

So many questions - anyone want to get us started?

I took the above quote from our other tread of IF GINNY HAD DIED. A friend of mine and I have been pondering about this for a while now so I want your opinion on this. Sorry if this has been brought it it just hit me.

I see this as part of the prohecy - " Niether can live while the other survives" Meaning While Ginny was under the influence with of Tom Riddle for the purpose of sacraficing her life so he could live and grow stronger poor ginny grew weaker until it balance and tom was strong enough to leave the diary. In the final stage of this ginny was hardly alive anymore but Tom could not fully 'LIVE' while ginny still 'SURVIVED'. So harry destroyed the diary killing Tom and he died and Ginny lived. Because he couldn't fully exsit if she was still living. So this leads me to the connection of ' NEITHER CAN LIVE WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES' DO YOU GUYS SEE THE SAME PATTERN I DO??

The connection between them was the diary. Right THerefore the connection I see with Harry and Voldemort is the Scar which we all know. But that diary had secrets and information that may lead to the death of voldemort. What secrets and information can help us solve the connection between harry and Vold? It has memories - I also think memories will play a HUGE role in the next book you now the famous PENSIEVE.

What do you guys think about this???

[Alz]

*kisses Pretty on cheek* :D

OK - so here goes ...

Harry should have died when Voldemort killed him
What actually happened was Harry was left with a scar - and some of Voldemort in him - Voldemort was ripped from his body and should have died - but his soul survives.
So - in effect one should have lived - one died ...
So then the linkage here - both had spells protecting them - Voldemort with one of he steps that seemed to work - Harry with his mothers sacrifice charm ...

Sooooo - what we are left with is a situation where one should have died lived - one should have lived died ....
"Neither can live while the other survives ..." - go figure - spells and charms conspired to create an almost paradox - the natural order was effected and still - one must die - one must live ...

So yah - the link - can you feel it :D

[Fortescue]

I think I understand what you're saying ---

If Harry's scar is his connection to Voldemort, which we have been shown many times - the connection does exist, it's possible that the scar in some way is the deciding factor in the final confrontation.

Voldemort doesn't have the advantage Harry does simply because the scar and the connection between them seems stronger for Harry. He was first to see through Voldemort's eyes and in the instance of Mr. Weasley's attack, he even saw through the eyes of the snake Voldemort possessed. Sure, Voldemort can make Harry see things now that he's aware of the connections, but to our knowledge, what Harry sees isn't a two way thing. So maybe since he has the scar, that gives him an edge over Voldemort and to fulfill the prophecy, whichever wins will get all the strength and powers of the other??

[kashlie]

If I am right in my crazy thinking, Harry will learn to control what his scar can do for him. If he is to learn Occulemncy, he may also learn Legilimens. Perhaps he'll even figure out how to get into V without him even noticing (again).
Therefore Harry might be able to predict Voldemort's movements before he makes them.

My conclusion - the scar as the defining factor, gives Harry the advantage. In the final battle - we are assuming it will be Harry and Voldemort otherwise it will be an anticlimax, right? Anyway, the final battle, Harry will break the connection between them - perhaps having found out how Dumbledore could have removed the scar when he first got it.
And that I think is very important - Did Dumbledore not hint that for him to remove the scar meant the 'handyness' of it would no longer be there?
So, Harry, instead of attacking Voldemort, removes the scar, because he knows while he has that scar, neither of them can actually kill the other, because they are connected, but Voldemort doesn't know that...so Harry has no scar now, his powers become full and only his, Voldemort can't predict his behaviour, nor get into his mind any longer and is thrown off by this sudden surge of his whole self coming back together. It could even be that the 'dead' part of him was what Harry had within him.

So either this dead part returns to Voldemort, finishing what started all those years ago, now that the body is mortal, or Harry takes advantage of Voldemorts state of shock and hits him with a very powerful curse that kills him...

I can come and explain that better if it is hard to follow...

[kaz]

That is an excellent post Kash and I followed it though just fine! (Something to discuss on Saturday!) I am wondering if Dumbledore didnt remove the scar so HE would have a spy? We know that DD knows more about Harry than we think- is he trying to get information out of Harry about Voldemort, but discretley so Harry doesnt think DD is using him?

I agree, the scar has a connection between Harry and Voldemort (we know that bit!!) DUH KAZ!) but I think it is more useful to Harry if he can work out how to use it properly. I could be a window in to Voldemorts world where Harry can see his weaknesses- or to his past and Harry might see what steps he has taken to protect hinself from death...

[PrettyMS.Potter]

Voldemort doesn't have the advantage Harry does simply because the scar and the connection between them seems stronger for Harry. He was first to see through Voldemort's eyes and in the instance of Mr. Weasley's attack, he even saw through the eyes of the snake Voldemort possessed. Sure, Voldemort can make Harry see things now that he's aware of the connections, but to our knowledge, what Harry sees isn't a two way thing. So maybe since he has the scar, that gives him an edge over Voldemort and to fulfill the prophecy, whichever wins will get all the strength and powers of the other??

** Blushes from Blaise kiss - Thanks**

WOW! this is what I'm talking about right here. Harry has in advantage with this scar and the way he can feel and even now see what Voldemorts up to. I think like Fortescue mentioned above Voledmort know that harry has this Power so to speak. He will fool him in to going into other area I think thats what he did in Ootp. Harry will use his scar to help him through his war against Voldemort. He will use the power it has the advantage it gives him.That is his connection with Voldemort like the diary was with Tom and Ginny. I think Harry will get around to makeing his scar useful and figuring out how to kind of control what he is feeling and seeing to even make Voldemort feel what Harry feels and see's. What if Harry starts to control it very well that he start to make Voldemort feel love and see good things.

[George]

Well, I really don't know. On one hand, I agree with you all, in the fact that I am sure that the scar will be a deciding factor. However, in this statement, I paradoxically counter all of your points. The scar will be A (or ONE OF THE) decisive factors. I don't mean to be a pessimist, but I reckon that it is not possible for Harry to defeat Voldemort through his scar alone. What I would suggest is a combination of the scar and the green eyes- I think the two go together very well, and, when acting together, will get the better of Voldemort. WHY the eyes will play a very important role (which JKR talked about) I do not know. But I can't help the feeling that it goes hand-in-hand with the scar. But, if it could be "activated" as a window into Voldemort's world (as has been said in this thread), perhaps the eyes could then act as the means of control- the scar keeps the connection active and Harry's eyes- the windows to his soul- work some kind of magic on Voldemort's brain, making him comrade of Harry's will. Anyone with me?

[Sirius Potter Fan]

One thing I am seeing here is just the theme of connections. Riddle had the connection with Ginny through the diary, and Voldemort has the connection with Harry through the scar. the thing is, who is in controll of the connection. in CoS, it was Riddle (Voldemort) who was in controll, in OotP, at the begining, neither had "controll" of the connection through the scar. Voldemort upon realization that the connection was there used it to his benifit, but now that Harry knows that it can be used will actualy try to close his mind now, remember, before, Harry was wanting to see what was behind that door badly and would't close his mind. Voldemort seems to rely on connections for his life. First it is there in Riddle choosing to use Ginny to bring himself back through the diary, upon hearing from Giny that he had been killed by Harry. Voldemort used the connection with Nagini to strengthen himself before he used another connection with Harry, through his blood, to bring him back to his body. Now Voldemort knows of the connection through the scar. That Voldemort is aware of the two way connection, means that he will be on his guard as well as Harry will. But Voldemort is known for underestimating dangers, or "forgetting" the influence of "old" magic.

in the quote "neither can live while the other survives" and taking their connections into consideration, I can hypothesize this. . . Voldemort cannot truly live while Harry lives because part of him that was lost when the spell rebounded is trapped inside Harry, and untill Harry dies, Voldemort would not ever be entirely whole in himself. Harry cannot truly live while Voldemort survives, because Voldemort would never leave him, not only would Voldemort never cease his desire to kill Harry, but I believe that when Voldemort is Killed by Harry, the part of Voldemort that lived on in Harry when the spell rebounded, would be "exorcised" and Harry could finaly fully live his life as himself without the essence of voldemort. The prophesy isn't speaking in this sentance of life in death, but more of the quality of life they lead.

[Boing]

Yup yup yup. See, this is something that we discussed way back in the prophecy thread and I tend to agree with you, SPF. The prophecy is talking about the quality of life the person wants to lead - neither can fulfill their potential while the other one is still around . . . Voldemort can't be the ultimate dark wizard and Harry can't just lead a normal life.

I also believe the scar connection is huge and will be something that really starts to come into play again in HBP. We saw what it could do for Harry and Voldemort in OotP and I can only imagine it will come back again in HBP. And Dumbledore knew about the connection - remember when Harry was all upset because Dumbledore was at the Order headquarters and didn't say anything to him and then didn't even look at him the whole time in the hearing in OotP? Well, it was because Dumbledore was worried that Voldemort could see through Harry's eyes and that Voldemort could influence Harry's actions in some way because of the scar. And it turns out he was right because there is that time when he looks into Dumbledore's eyes and gets the feeling he just wants to kill him, there is such an intense hatred all of a sudden, but it was Voldemort, through the scar.

[Fortescue]

** Blushes from Blaise kiss - Thanks**

WOW! this is what I'm talking about right here. Harry has in advantage with this scar and the way he can feel and even now see what Voldemorts up to. I think like Fortescue mentioned above Voledmort know that harry has this Power so to speak. He will fool him in to going into other area I think thats what he did in Ootp. Harry will use his scar to help him through his war against Voldemort. He will use the power it has the advantage it gives him.That is his connection with Voldemort like the diary was with Tom and Ginny. I think Harry will get around to makeing his scar useful and figuring out how to kind of control what he is feeling and seeing to even make Voldemort feel what Harry feels and see's. What if Harry starts to control it very well that he start to make Voldemort feel love and see good things.

If Harry could somehow learn to control the connection, maybe through learning Occlumency, that would definitely give him the advantage, especially if he could still see through Voldemort's eyes, yet shut his own mind to Voldemort's penetration. That would be a very powerful weapon, not only to Harry in the form of additional protection, but to Dumbledore and the Order as well. Imagine if Harry could see what Voldemort was doing without his knowing, and the Order could act before Voldemort carried out his plans.

[Sirius Potter Fan]

Imagine if Harry could see what Voldemort was doing without his knowing, and the Order could act before Voldemort carried out his plans.


And, if he could indeed do that, might we not finaly learn for shure whether Snape is on one side or the other? If Harry sees one thing, and Snape is reporting something different. . .or, if Harry indeed sees that same thing being truthfully reported that would answer it as well! :p

[Alz]

I think we have the potential for a return on Harry's skill.
As much as Harry will try closing Voldemort out of his mind - I still think Voldemort has the potential to sneak through Harry when he least expects it.
But the observation about Snape was a good one - I really do think Snape will be worried now he had Harry in his head - he knows the boy can do it ...
Wonder if he will take the Dumbledore approach and just avoid Harry now :D

[Fortescue]

The connection between them was the diary. Right THerefore the connection I see with Harry and Voldemort is the Scar which we all know. But that diary had secrets and information that may lead to the death of voldemort. What secrets and information can help us solve the connection between harry and Vold? It has memories - I also think memories will play a HUGE role in the next book you now the famous PENSIEVE.


Back to the connection between Harry and Voldemort. A possible advantage to Harry is that until Voldemort possessed the snake, and Snape told Harry that that particular intrusion into Voldemorts mind was so strong, that's what made Voldemort aware that Harry was in his mind, Harry definitely had the advantage. When Voldemort began entering Harry's mind through the same connection, we saw the adverse affect that had on Harry. His intrusions into Voldemort's mind were painful, and made him physically ill at times, but Voldemort's intrusions not only made Harry feel ill, but also made him feel murderous, as in the two times he looked Dumbledore in the eyes in OotP. For Harry to have the affects he had prior to Voldemort's awareness of the connection, and for Voldemort to have not been aware at all that Harry was there could be a big thing. If Harry can learn Occlumency and block his mind, maybe he can control the connection enough to go back to being able to intrude in Voldemort's mind without Voldemort being any the wiser. It seems the only way the connection can be broken is when one of the two, (Voldemort, of course,) is dead and the connection no longer exists.

I think the big thing here will be, as Pretty said, when we see Harry and Dumbledore using the Pensieve in HBP, and possibly learn what really happened between Harry and Voldemort the night of the attack on the Potters.

Think about his green eyes like his mothers :D :D

[Alz]

In the instances you mentioned - and the one that sticks in my mind - notice it was Harry feeling hateful and the result was him wanting to strike at Dumbledore ..
Point I am making here is that there was more of a snake 'impression' than that of Voldemort - as in the actions Harry wanted to take were snake like and not just Voldemort wanting to scream AK at him ...
I hope you can see what I am saying - when Harry was under control is seemed almost like it was a snake like action and not that of Voldemort - so are we back to the Nagini link here?


At once, Harry's scar burned white-hot, as though the old wound had burst open again - and unbidden, unwanted, but terrifyingly strong, there rose within Harry a hatred so powerful he felt, for that instant, that he would like nothing better than to strike - to bite - to sink his fangs into the man before him -."

[Fortescue]

That makes complete sense. :D In that quote we saw what Harry felt when he looked in Dumbledore's eyes as a transference of Voldemort's hate for Dumbledore. The connection, just as Dumbledore feared, had adverse effect on Harry. It made him feel murderous toward Dumbledore - someone who we know Harry would never dream of harming in the slightest. The connection of the snake is obvious considering Voldemort's physical appearance and the basis of his bloodline is the connection to the snake through Slytherin, and the transference of power from Voldemort to Harry the night of the attack. Voldemort created the link between himself and Harry by trying to kill him. That could be why Dumbledore checked the small instrument that showed the smoky snake splitting into two distinct snakes to make sure the connection was not changing and Harry was not being possessed. I think the connection between Harry and Voldemort and the fact that it is so strong could be very useful if Harry could learn to control it.

Remember when Harry tried to tell Sirius about the incident mentioned in the quote when in the pantry at Grimmauld Place after Mr. Weasley's attack. Sirius said it was probably because he had just had the dream and didn't take it seriously. I sometimes think Sirius needed to think a little more deeply when it came to Harry and his connection to Voldemort - maybe he would still be alive. :rolleyes:

[Alz]

You kinda miss my point on this one hun ...
Notice at the intersection Voldemort see's via Harry - he see's the person he really hates - mainly because he represents a real threat to him - it triggers a snake like response in Harry.
It isnt Voldemorts actions that swell in Harry's mind - it is the action of a snake.
Now then - can we gleam from this that even Harry might have some connections to Nagini - or the fact Nagini is so important to the series because they both have a connection via her in some respect - like she acts like a conduit to both of them.
Harry see's someone being attacked from Nagini's POV - this is the attack on Arthur - we are told this is because Voldemort is controlling her - yet notice Harry see's Nagini and not Voldemort.
Can you tell me that is a coincidence that when they mentally connect or clash as the case may be - the snake element plays an over-riding and somewhat strong connection there?

Where is this going - well the object that dictates the well being of Voldemort is the snake - so what if Harry just has to work on Nagini to get the real edge on Voldemort?
In CoS the projection mechanism was the diary - I go as far as to say that perhaps the overall linking device in this case - is Nagini ...