View Full Version : Dumbledore is Evil
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So, now that Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince is out, the 'Dumbledore is Evil' crew will soon be resurrecting the old argument and trying to prove to the rest of us that the sweet old Headmaster is much more sinister than he looks! :rolleyes:
This thread is for any and all "proof" (quotes, developed theories, or random thoughts) and/or relevant information that will help Blaise in his continuing quest to prove that nice old Albus Dumbledore really is an evil conspirator out to get Harry. :rolleyes:
Not that he will ever be successful, but we should humor him since it is his site and all - ;)
There is certainly more to Dumbledore than we found out in HBP. We will still find out more from him in the last book, as Kaz reminded me this evening. Unfortunately, it will be up to her to say what she reminded me of, and only when it is safe to assume that most members have finished reading.
However, I must add that I was never happy with the idea of him being evil, as convincing as the evidence could be.
Oh, sorry...this was supposed to be supportive. Delete if you must :evil1:
I stand by my opinion. :) I will say more when I know I am allowed!
You know there was a lot of conflicting thoughts going through my head as I read HBP - but I still feel when he is in the cave and having his 'episode' we hear a few things that might get a few of you thinking ...
Overall - I am not 100% convinced as I was before - but I am not about to give it up as well - I just have that feeling again ...
Fortescue
17-07-2005, 06:08
You know there was a lot of conflicting thoughts going through my head as I read HBP - but I still feel when he is in the cave and having his 'episode' we hear a few things that might get a few of you thinking ...
Overall - I am not 100% convinced as I was before - but I am not about to give it up as well - I just have that feeling again ...
:rolleyes: Oh, come on, Blaise - you can say that Dumbledore was a sweet, kind, brave wizard, who never had an evil bone in his body. :rolleyes:
Um, I believe since he made the ultimate sacrifice for the cause that he surely can be taken off the evil list. :rolleyes:
Or, Blaise may be right. Think about this:
Dumbledore was hoping by getting Harry so close to him, then planning with Snape to kill him, that Harry would crack.
Far fetched, but I was hoping that it gives all the "Dumbledore's evil" crew something to grip onto. Hehe. There was so many times I thought maybe he was evil, that was until he died...
I think we should all think a little about what the new MoM calls Harry - Dumbledore's man ...
I dont want to get to much into this at the moment - mainly because the death is still raw in many people's mind - especially those that wasnt expecting it - where there was a few of us that accepted the result a while ago and was able to move forward once JKR made it so ;)
psychgirl83
25-07-2005, 08:39
Ok, I've thought of something that might give new hope for the DiE crew. Dumbledore is a Parselmouth (or he can at least understand Parseltounge, even if he can't speak it). While he and Harry are exploring the memories in the Pensieve, the Gaunt's and Riddle typically speak Parseltounge. But Dumbledore doesn't have to ask Harry what they are saying. If he didn't understand it, wouldn't he have asked? Plus, he says that after he saw the memory from Morfin that he tried to clear his name and all the conversation between Morfin and Riddle in that memory takes place in Parseltounge. So before, I accepted that the reason Dumbledore didn't defeat or seem to even know about the basilisk in CoS was because he didn't have the small bit of information that HRH had gained from Harry being able to hear the voices and Harry being a Parselmouth. But if Dumbledore is able to understand Parseltounge, what was stopping him from stopping the basilisk?
Alright, I have to say I don't think DD is evil.
However, I woud like to get to the bottom of this whole Parcelmouth bit. Psychgirl brought it to my attention just before she posted and I was INSTANTLY intrigued. There a lot of ramifications is if you introduce DD as a parcemouth speaker, but also a lot of questions.
Why didn't he hear the basilisk and if he did, why didn't he stop it?
Why didn't he speak with Harry about it?
If he isn't a parcelmouth, why could he understnd the Riddles?
And, does this gift/power affect the outcome of Harry's actions?
~Curiouser and Curiouser~
DiE doesnt need hope - check out my signature ;)
Interesting pick up there ... we are often reminded how much of a rare skill it is and also associated with the Slytherin sides of the bloodlines ... yet we see the red and gold Phoenix etc ... suppose we could be looking at another 'Black' where his heat was in Gry and not Sly ...
I suppose this one is kinda up in the air - we havent really been told much about Dumbledore's roots ... but yet I still wonder why he seemed to bond so well with the young Riddle - seemed all too willing to help him, even though everyone else was remarking what an odd lil one he is ...
If I was in full DiE - perhaps could even pin the education of Riddle on him - perhaps Dumbledore knew the history so well - because he once re-called it to Riddle :eek: :D
I suppose this one is kinda up in the air - we havent really been told much about Dumbledore's roots ... but yet I still wonder why he seemed to bond so well with the young Riddle - seemed all too willing to help him, even though everyone else was remarking what an odd lil one he is ...
If I was in full DiE - perhaps could even pin the education of Riddle on him - perhaps Dumbledore knew the history so well - because he once re-called it to Riddle :eek: :D
I can't say I ever got the impression that DD and Riddle "bonded." As I read HBP I got the strong impression that DD watched over Riddle because he didn't trust him. Riddle charmed the other teachers around him (think Slughorn and the Horcruxes), but not DD.
And if DD knew Riddle was the Heir of Slytherin, wouldn't he have known who freed the basilisk? Then Hagrid would never have been blamed.
And none of this explains how DD could understand the Riddle family. Or why Harry never noticed DD understanding Parcelmouth.
Ok, I've thought of something that might give new hope for the DiE crew. Dumbledore is a Parselmouth (or he can at least understand Parseltounge, even if he can't speak it). While he and Harry are exploring the memories in the Pensieve, the Gaunt's and Riddle typically speak Parseltounge. But Dumbledore doesn't have to ask Harry what they are saying. If he didn't understand it, wouldn't he have asked?
Not necessarily.
Granted, Dumbledore was a very skilled wizard who had many magical skills that very few else could do, if any. And while at first I really thought it would be possible that he could speak it, I thought about it a bit more and now I sort of doubt that he could speak Parseltongue. He didn't say whether or not he understood it, but merely asked if Harry could understand it.. but it seems to me that just about everything said in Parseltongue could have been figured out by the context and how everything was said, along with what Dumbledore already knew about them (and Voldemort).
There is a possibility, however slight, that Dumbledore may have asked someone else to translate and showed them the memory like he did Harry, but I highly doubt this due to the rarity of such an ability and the probable unlikeliness that Dumbledore would share such a thing with anyone else..
If Dumbledore didnt understand Parselmouth, why didnt he ask Harry to translate or even give him the overview?
There sould have been clues etc in this part and if Dumbledore never understood exactly what was being said - he could have missed something.
I think the fact he didnt ask Harry to explain it etc suggest to me he was understanding it as well ...
I think it would be very hard to gleam all we did from that section of the book just from body language - it would require understanding of the dialogue etc ...
Weasleyfanforever
27-07-2005, 07:54
DiE doesnt need hope - check out my signature ;)
Interesting pick up there ... we are often reminded how much of a rare skill it is and also associated with the Slytherin sides of the bloodlines ... yet we see the red and gold Phoenix etc ... suppose we could be looking at another 'Black' where his heat was in Gry and not Sly ...
I suppose this one is kinda up in the air - we havent really been told much about Dumbledore's roots ... but yet I still wonder why he seemed to bond so well with the young Riddle - seemed all too willing to help him, even though everyone else was remarking what an odd lil one he is ...
If I was in full DiE - perhaps could even pin the education of Riddle on him - perhaps Dumbledore knew the history so well - because he once re-called it to Riddle :eek: :D
I wouldn't say that Dumbledore and Riddle ever bonded. He went to get him from the orphanage because it was special circumstances, and someone would have to account for where he was going. Dumbledore even tried to teach Tom Riddle how to do the right thing in making him return the things he had stolen from the other children. Also, the reason that Dumbledore kept such a close watch on him was because everyone was saying what a 'odd lil one' he was...
I think as Riddle progressed and really began to change, then the whole CoS thing really changed Dumbledore's mind ..
I think previous to this - Dumbledore was trying to mentor him - show him the way ... or errors of ... that in my mind constitues bonding ... just Harry seemed to take to it more than Riddle ;)
I would also like to submit to the floor another thing I might attribute towards his evilness ...
In HBP Harry recalls to Dumbledore the meeting he had with the new MoM where he calls Harry 'Dumbledore's man' - Harry tells this to Dumbledore and says it is true, Dumbledore gets tears in his eyes ...
On normal reflection this could be the fact Dumbledore is overcome with emotions because of the sentiment ... I propose he is overcome because of the same thing - but the emotion stems from the fact he knows what is in store for Harry.
See - I think now that Dumbledore knows Harry is a horcrux - and knows that Harry will probably have to die in order to end Voldemort's life ...
In fact I think Dumbledore has known this all along - and one of the final things Dumbledore concealed from Harry was this fact ... I revise that Dumbledore is evil as in out and out evil - but instead suggest that his wickedness steams from withholding these facts from Harry ...
That is why Dumbledore chokes up - and also might account for his 'nightmares' after drinking the potion :)
Guys, if I seem ignorant to past discussion, then I apologize in advance. I read this thread, and the thread in the MG wild spec forum, and I'm a bit confused.
I guess I'm wondering what is the point of Dumbledore being evil: what is the method in his alleged madness, what does he want? Is he eviller than Voldemort? Is he going for World Domination? I have always considered a milder version, a Greater Good guy, if someone dies in the line of duty, so be it -- even if it was his own mother (perhaps...)
But is this evil?
Maybe what I'm thinking of is "Dumbledore Sees Everyone as Expendable" or "Dumbledore's Got the Harry/Horcrux Trump Card." I'm with you all on the indicators that he's evil:
parselmouth/not doing anything about the basilisk
withholding information from Harry
trusting Snape
letting Sirius rot in Azkaban instead of going in there to pick his memory like he did Hokey and Morfin
putting Harry in the line of fire repeatedly and playing dumb about it
sentencing Harry to life with the Dursleys
But all that could be explained as a good man fighting a nasty war. How can define him as evil? What does he want?
gumshoe
Dumbledore seems to be very much in control of things - or at least likes to.
He dictates his own vision and direction - many times upsetting the MoM in the process - those appointed to direct a clearer vision for the Magical world.
Being Evil doesn't mean he has to be bigger and better than Voldemort - he doesn't even have to act in the same manner.
I think he likes to be in control - he did it well enough with Harry just farming him what he needs ...
He does view people around him as expendable - Snape, Lupin, Hagrid etc - after all they have all been sent on missions at Dumbledore's orders ... not always with clear intentions as to why.
I think a miscomprehension can occur when you look at the word evil - it doesn't mean hell bent on world domination - but can stretch to removal of people/persons that upset a balance you establish.
Seems Dumbledore's forte is to fight Dark Lords ... but I don't think he is evil in respect that he wants to replace them - more in the fact they upset or encroach on his plan for harmony.
It is a fine line that makes someone willing to have others lay their life down for his/hers beliefs ... it can almost make him the same as Voldemort and Grindelwald - they have their own views and opinions and aggressively impose their views on other - I believe Dumbledore is a lot more passive.
That is why I liked the MoM's comment 'You are Dumbledore's man through and through' it's almost like saying that the person is beyond hope as they have been infected with the views and opinions ...
The Frozen North
04-09-2005, 07:07
I think a miscomprehension can occur when you look at the word evil - it doesn't mean hell bent on world domination - but can stretch to removal of people/persons that upset a balance you establish.
In religious terms, the greatest gift we have from God is our agency to act, think and behave as we see fit. Removal of this agency is often seen as the greatest evil (I don't mean by punishing/imprisoning criminals as they themselves have, by definition, had a negative affect on the agency of others). Using this definition it is very easy to construct an argument for DD being evil.
Not that I'm saying religious beliefs have anything to do with this forum or the world of Harry Potter but it is important to understand where our definitions of right and wrong come from and in the western world (and much of the rest of the world) our morale foundations are found in Christianity, either our own beliefs or those of our forefathers.
Well done Blaise!!
I mentioned in another thread that we are all evil, and as Dumbledore puts it... our choices are what make us who we are.
What if Dumbledore has a link to the Dark Lord Grindelwald, as Harry does to Voldemort ?
I think Dumbledore has a dark side to him, but I think it is because of his experience fighting dark wizards.
I often feel Dumbledore walks a fine line between commanding and intimidating.
We have cases of this in HBP when he has Snape in the Forbidden Forest - when he makes Harry swear he will listen and to a certain extent his reactions to Harry with reagards to securing the Slughorn memory.
As I said this is like the whole concept - a very fine line exists between good and evil and I feel that Dumbledore isnt sitting right to the left of good - at best he walks the middle ground.
Look at my sig for goodness sake - I maintain that Dumbledore can be very cold sometimes... there is hatred in that man!
gswarriors1123
27-10-2005, 17:07
Personally i think Hagrid is evil not Dumbledore. I also think snape is good. I know my ideas may be way far fetched but think about this. Why was Hagrid on the camp grounds and not out fighting. And Dumbledore would know if Snape was evil, because he is the greatest wizard ever... So im thinking that Snape purposly missed dumbledore so everyone thought snape was really bad, and dumbledore stayed alive... i kno its far fetched but thats just my opinion
You know what - I think we actually have a thread in here somewhere that covers the possibilities that Hagrid is evil - hey we like to look at wild as well as plausible theories!
I was listening to the moment Harry confronted Dumbledore about Snape being the eavesdropper again today - Dumbledore did not want to discuss his reasons for trusting Snape and actually cut Harry off dead at the end. This just makes me feel there could be more to this than wild speculation.
SnapeLovesLily
23-08-2006, 23:03
There are alot of good reasons actually plausible ones that make DD evil, but I think JKR spelled it out when she created his name.
Albus- meaning white commonly reffered to as a sign of good.
percival- one of King arthurs knights the only one who was pure enough to retrieve the Holy Grail
Wulfric- Wolf Power refering to beowulf the great warrior who defeated Grendel (grindlewald).
Brian- Meaning hill or extending to "high" or "noble" or it could just be comic relief to the rest of his names.
and the Dumbledore which of course we all know means bumblebee because how JKR pictured DD.
Just the way she put him together and the way she pictures him just seems that he was created to be a good character. The same way C.S Lewis described Aslan " Is he safe of course not, but he is good"
cagedcactus
24-08-2006, 03:55
There are alot of good reasons actually plausible ones that make DD evil, but I think JKR spelled it out when she created his name.
Albus- meaning white commonly reffered to as a sign of good.
percival- one of King arthurs knights the only one who was pure enough to retrieve the Holy Grail
Wulfric- Wolf Power refering to beowulf the great warrior who defeated Grendel (grindlewald).
Brian- Meaning hill or extending to "high" or "noble" or it could just be comic relief to the rest of his names.
and the Dumbledore which of course we all know means bumblebee because how JKR pictured DD.
Just the way she put him together and the way she pictures him just seems that he was created to be a good character. The same way C.S Lewis described Aslan " Is he safe of course not, but he is good"
Simply excellent.
Nice job. I was looking down the same lines over the net yesterday.
Threads like these are fun. I love to see the range of ideas people can have.
No-one can argue JKR wrote Dumbledore to be the epitome of goodness - in fact she even says this in an interview once ... but then again JKR also said no-one important would die in book 6 - that kind of suggests she isn't too adverse to mislead if it protects a big secret.
As I tell everyone who reads this thread - do me a favour, re-read the books with the thought in the back of your mind he could be evil - and then look at certain parts and apply it - you will see reason!
The person that set me on this path was someone who said back in 2002/03 that Snape as a double, double agent - well before OoTP and HBP - and everyone laughed ... goes to show the wildest thinkers are sometimes the people to get it right!
cagedcactus
07-09-2006, 07:27
No-one can argue JKR wrote Dumbledore to be the epitome of goodness - in fact she even says this in an interview once ... but then again JKR also said no-one important would die in book 6 - that kind of suggests she isn't too adverse to mislead if it protects a big secret.
As I tell everyone who reads this thread - do me a favour, re-read the books with the thought in the back of your mind he could be evil - and then look at certain parts and apply it - you will see reason!
The person that set me on this path was someone who said back in 2002/03 that Snape as a double, double agent - well before OoTP and HBP - and everyone laughed ... goes to show the wildest thinkers are sometimes the people to get it right!
But you see ALZ, keeping that thought in back of mind, would qualify as biased reading.
Read any book ever written. I bet you that more than 90% of the books will offer you that kind of biased reading.
What you have to do is follow what author gives you. Follow the line that author wants you to follow. Follow the characterization that author has provided.
Only that way you can come to the unbiased, correct conclusion.
I can sit here and prove Voldemort not so evil too, if I tried hard.
These books are not murder mysteries or suspense thrillers.
These books are good all around children's reads, which are amazingly and rightfully attracting adults like us.
The true message behind them is for the kids. Showing DD evil is not part of it, I assure you.
:D
SnapeLovesLily
07-09-2006, 11:35
But you see ALZ, keeping that thought in back of mind, would qualify as biased reading.
Read any book ever written. I bet you that more than 90% of the books will offer you that kind of biased reading.
What you have to do is follow what author gives you. Follow the line that author wants you to follow. Follow the characterization that author has provided.
Only that way you can come to the unbiased, correct conclusion.
I can sit here and prove Voldemort not so evil too, if I tried hard.
These books are not murder mysteries or suspense thrillers.
These books are good all around children's reads, which are amazingly and rightfully attracting adults like us.
The true message behind them is for the kids. Showing DD evil is not part of it, I assure you.
:D
Brilliantly put! My thoughts exactly. It's how JKR created a character that strolls around the school humming to himself showing his innocence and his fearless nature. Also to add to my list of names meaning other things, Percival is also the only english Prime Minister to be assassinated.
.. I beg to differ - JKR wrote these books with twists and turns in every book - and I mean in every book!
And then you have the series overall - once again filled with mystery, twists and turns ...
The reason my site exists - as well as thousands of others?
Because when people read them they do see different things ... if we all read them the same way - why would you want to discuss them?
If DiE - it would be the greatest twist of all in my mind ... to have so many people gasp - just like when Dumbledore died ... well a few of us saw it coming ;)
cagedcactus
11-09-2006, 07:27
.. I beg to differ - JKR wrote these books with twists and turns in every book - and I mean in every book!
And then you have the series overall - once again filled with mystery, twists and turns ...
The reason my site exists - as well as thousands of others?
Because when people read them they do see different things ... if we all read them the same way - why would you want to discuss them?
If DiE - it would be the greatest twist of all in my mind ... to have so many people gasp - just like when Dumbledore died ... well a few of us saw it coming ;)
The story can twist and turn in many ways.
It may also do exactly what you are suggesting.
Given the information on character of DD, it just seems very less possible. Then again, that is why we are debating it all.
I believe of all my theories that is the most unlikely but I still cant get it out of my head - it just seems there is something about Dumbledore that is nested away and hidden ...
We know he can be cold and calculating, we know he is willing to sacrifice and be sacrificed but I say again, look at my signature - what he says to Voldemort in OoTP is very cold ... and then we have the second quote - he is very upset about something there ... something he bought about and could have maybe had a hand in ...
idk - all the same this is pretty wild but if JKR did pull it off - WOW is all I can say!
cagedcactus
04-10-2006, 08:26
Your speculation there is extremely detailed and quite agreeable.
I can definitely agree that DD is different. He is cold, and calm and just too spooky.
But there is a difference between being cold or being cold blooded.
He is not cold blooded. An evil person doesnt sacrifice his/her life for anything. Let alone life, and Evil person wouldnt risk a hand for a horcrux.
And finally an evil person wouldnt walk in to a student, pick up his box of every flavored beans, be scared of eating one, and describe how he always comes accross a bad one, the way he did in SS.
:D
Is he crazy? maybe.....
Evil? That should not be even an option..... :p
If you were really looking for a shocking twist to kill off the series - this would rank up there I reckon and would seal in history the series moreso - to pull that off would make a lot of Potter fans really mad ... which is why I like it so much :D
I just think there is enough about Dumbledore that no-one knows right now - enough in his actions in the past - his looks and mannerisms - he sterility in circumstances that dont need it - his ability to make sacrifices and most of all - his enigmatic approach that would suggest all isnt exactly as it seems - there is a lot more to Dumbledore than we know and I think there is a reason for it - JKR could have spent the 6 previous books talking about Dumbledore in his past but has never touched upon it - we have had character developement all over the series but Dumbledore's true past is all unknown and glossed over - I think there is a reason!
cagedcactus
09-10-2006, 09:55
I am definitely in agreement with you on that last statement.
I also know that you almost hope that DD turns that way and whole fan base is shocked. ;) :D You being the trouble-maker, you are. :D
I also hope to see more into DD's back. But since he is not alive anymore, and JKR's desire to keep book in the same range as OoTP, I dont see how she can explain about DD's past much to us.
With Dumbledore removed and away from awkward confrontations with Harry - I can see that whole past coming out in book 7 and we find out the real reasons Dumbledore set his life to erradicate dark lords - well on face value and uncomplicated reading of the books at the very least ...
JKR has used concealment to great effect - in fact Horcruxes stand as the greatest evidence in this whole premise of concealing things - Dumbledore's past is now ripe for discovery and I think there is a reason she wanted him out of the way before the big reveals ... Harry is going to be in turmoil!
SnapeLovesLily
10-10-2006, 12:40
I've always assumed that DD is going to leave some of his memories in something for Harry to view in the pensieve. It's possible, for a more elevated story, that DD changed some of his own memories and Harry will have to figure them out.
Dumbledore will have left memories for Harry - that much seems sure in my mind ..
I think Harry seeing why Dumbledore did what he did, living it so to speak - will lessen the blow to Harry when he finds out that Dumbledore really isnt the white of white we all believe him to be.
To be evil may not be the best description of this whole premise - it is the same of anyone who leads and is followed, they become focused on their own agenda and the people that fell for Dumbledore will always have their blood on his hands but I wonder if he became this less than light person due to his strong focus on what he believed and circumstance created the other side ... the side no-one thinks exists but is in everyone - the difference between you and him - he had the followers and thus the responsibilities both morally and ethically to take into consideration ... the issue I believe stems from his blind faith in what he was doing was 'right' - right and wrong is subjective to those affected ...
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