Was it real? ***MAJOR SPOILERS***

[psychgirl83]

***MAJOR SPOILERS***





I just can't beleive that Dumbledore could be actually dead. It's too much. So here's my thought. Snape took the Unbreakable Vow, so he had to at least attempt to kill Dumbledore. So he's tells Dumbledore this. They cook up some kind of plot together; create some sort of magical protection for Dumbledore, work out a "play" of sorts where the whole death is faked, or something like that. Snape keeps his vow, Voldemort and the Death Eaters think Dumbledore is dead (as does pretty much the whole world). Snape has to run off with them, otherwise the members of the Order would kill him. They fake the whole funeral and whatnot, giving Dumbledore time to do some things that he needs to do. So we see him come back in the next book, but as the Order's secret weapon against Voldemort since he is believed to be dead. Please, please, please let this be it.

[Weasleyfanforever]

I don't think so. I think that Dumbledore is absolutely and completely dead. He was AK'd, and as far as we know, there are two people that have ever survived are Voldemort and Harry, and we now know why Voldemort survived. I really don't think that the Order would put Harry through all of that, I don't think they'd be able to stand it themselves...

[Boing]

Have to agree with WFF. We saw every indication that Dumbledore is dead.

His portrait was immediately up on the wall with the dead headmasters/mistresses in his old office, for one.

The second, and of course something upon which we will all be speculating over the next couple years, was the "phoenix" rising from the ashes at his funeral. It was a wispy sort of bird, so probably not a real one, and I think this was Dumbledore off to his "next great adventure."

I think he's gone, but I also think that he knew what Snape was going to do. I think that he and Snape had discussed it and he had told Snape to AK him should it ever come to it. When he was asking him for help, he was asking him to kill him and release him . . .

[Sirius-fan-forever]

See I could be convinced either way. But what made me wonder that snape might still be a good guy is a couple of things. When flitcwick (sp?) came to tell him about about death eaters, snape only stunned him when he could have easily chose to kill him. He also left Hermione and Luna when he could have hurt them. The last thing that really intrigued me was the fact that he kept shouting to Harry that don't call me a coward. I think this could be because killing dumbledore, if he's still on the order's side, would have been a very hard thing for him to do. It's kind of similar to Harry forcing Dumbledore to drink that potion in the cave. Both needed to be brave. And also even though he was not hurting Harry because voldemort wanted him for himself, I kind of believe that it's because he didn't want to. I mean we all have seen death eaters to kill and cause pain for no significant reason. Either Snape is really smart or he resisted for other reasons. :confused:

[kaz]

I think Dumbledore is dead- but not gone in many ways..for one, the portrait on the wall in the headmasters office. He will be a major source of information, and guidence for McGonagall and Harry in the final book. Fawkes is still alive and knew Dumbledore better than anyone, and as Harry says in the last part of HBP, will remail at Hogwarts while there are still people loyal to Dumbledore...Much more to add to this but RL calls!...

[Nimue]

I think it was real. But think perhaps that death may not be permanent. For anyone. I'm working on antheory I'll post in a bit.

[kashlie]

Okay, here is my theory, and I am very hopeful that it is true...
Dumbledore IS dead, but in those last few moments, Snape and DD communicated through Legilimens, that Snape would have to kill him and get Malfoy to safety. By stepping in and killing DD when Malfoy was supposed to do it, he was keeping the Unbreakable Vow, but going against Voldemort. I think the possibility of him being good is still there, because if he were really on Voldemort's side, wouldn't he rather die in his service and make Malfoy finish what he was ordered to do, as breaking the vow would supposedly kill him?

Dumbledore knew Harry was ready to carry on without him when they were leaving the cave, as he told Harry they would be okay because 'I'm with you'.
Then, everything that SPF brought up about who Snape could have killed - he had a dislike for Hermione that could have ended there. He could also have easily killed Harry, I believe, instead of just deflecting Harry's attacks.


I am so hopeful he turns out good because there can't be two evil, evil wizards against poor Harry :(


I had a brief thought that Dumbledore may have in some way been the real Horcrux too - the Gryffindor one and by going to the cave to find the other one he figured if he died, that is two gone. Don't ask me how Voldemort made Dumbledore one, I just think it is slightly possible.

[yarvelling]

What we don't know yet is quite how one puts a piece of one's soul 'into' an object or living thing...
I'm going to re-rread HBP again, and will pay attention to whether at any time DD and Riddle shared food or drink..that could be how maybe DD could have been tricked into being one of the Horcruxes, possibly?
Perhaps Riddle/Voldemort 'expected' DD to look for and find his Horcruxes...perhaps a piece of his soul was in the liquid that DD had to drink on thet island in the cave, and not in the locket. Maybe that's how Voldemort did it! He of course, wouldn't have expected Snape to kill DD; or if he did, he would have known that upon his death, DD's portrait would 'live on' his old office....perhaps now, through the portrait, DD IS still a Horcrux?
If so, then Harry will have to return to Hogwarts at some next term, to destroy the fragment of soul. He may have to return anyway in order to seek advice or help from existing Order members still at Hogwarts....

Damn....yet again, another book leads to even more unfathomable questions rather than answering any!!!

[Alz]

Have to agree with WFF. We saw every indication that Dumbledore is dead.

His portrait was immediately up on the wall with the dead headmasters/mistresses in his old office, for one.

The second, and of course something upon which we will all be speculating over the next couple years, was the "phoenix" rising from the ashes at his funeral. It was a wispy sort of bird, so probably not a real one, and I think this was Dumbledore off to his "next great adventure."

I think he's gone, but I also think that he knew what Snape was going to do. I think that he and Snape had discussed it and he had told Snape to AK him should it ever come to it. When he was asking him for help, he was asking him to kill him and release him . . .
Yep - I'm with Wheezy and Boingy for the exact same reasons ...
He is dead - just like Sirius you are all going to have to get used to it - he isnt coming back :(
He had to die for a reason - that was to give Harry the last motivations he needed to complete the job - and to also remove himself as a target for Voldemort to which Voldemort could use as a 'weapon' against Harry.
As Harry dumped Ginny he said he needed to do it to protect her - she would be a target - Dumbledore knew that if Voldemort ever got hold of him - Harry would bow to Voldemort rather than have Dumbledore hurt etc ...

[Sirius-fan-forever]

Ok I agree that dumbledore is definitely dead. I mean there's no doubt in my mind :( What I wonder about was whether snape is good or evil. It says for the first time they hear dumbledore pleading before snape is about to kill him. There was hate and revulsion on his face. Now I think this can be interpreted in two ways. Either that snape hated dumbledore and that dumbledore pleaded because he was scared/afraid or because disbelieving that he was wrong about snape. In other words he pleaded not because he was afraid but he was pleading to the good snape that he believed existed. My other take on this is that dumbledore pleaded because he and snape had agreed that under some situation if snape had to kill him, he should without hesitation. Meaning, just as he had made Harry promise to obey his order, he made the same promise with snape. He pleaded for snape to carry on with what they agreed. In this case, the hate and revulsion on snape's face was not for dumbledore, but for the task he was about to do...In other words for himself.
Later on Harry calls Snape a coward, Snape yells at him
'DON'T CALL ME A COWARD' .
But it was the description that interested me most.
'...screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog in the burning house behind them'.
It's possible that snape had some other reason for being in 'pain' when being called a coward. But I think it could have been because it took him a lot of courage to kill dumbledore because he was still loyal to him but he only did it because he made a promise of some sort.

[Buzzzz]

Okay, first off I believe Dumbledore is definantly not coming back, maybe as a ghost, and he is living in the painting. But he wont come back to life. Sorry people...

I like your idea Sirius-Fan-Forever, maybe Snape was in some other pain. I got to say when I read through I missed that sentence... Well I don't remember it. Reading this thread gave me a theory.. I'm going to go write it.

[Fortescue]

Dumbledore is dead, regretfully, but I think a significant thing is when the flames burst up around his body - a funeral pyre - and the ghostly shadow of a phoenix rose and disappeared.

Dumbledore knew of the horcrux and owned the perfect pet to place a bit of his soul into if he wanted to become immortal - Fawkes's musical lament over Dumbledore's death could be significant as well. The phoenix song - the phoenix as a whole has always brought Harry strength and he connects that strength to Dumbledore. He truly is dead or his portrait would not have appeared in the office, but could there be something of him left behind - something that might come back and help - Harry told Scrimgeour at Dumbledore's funeral that he was Dumbledore's man (not boy) and Dumbledore would always be there to help when help was needed!! Could be a clue.

[Boing]

I think that it was in tribute to Dumbledore's memory that he said those things. Remembering back to CoS when Dumbledore told them while they were under the invisibility cloak that he would never have truly left Hogwarts while there still remained those that were loyal to him.

I think Harry said he was Dumbledore's man through and through and said that Dumbledore hadn't truly left because there were still kids there who believed in him, Harry included. It is the memory of Dumbledore, what he stood for, and what he was trying to do that people at Hogwarts will remain loyal to and therefore, Dumbledore's spirit will always be there to fill them up with the needed courage, etc.

[Alz]

It's possible that snape had some other reason for being in 'pain' when being called a coward. But I think it could have been because it took him a lot of courage to kill dumbledore because he was still loyal to him but he only did it because he made a promise of some sort.
That is exactly what we are seeing ...
We are seeing emotion from Snape at long last - and I mean the emotion of hurt, upset, boarding crying - and another strong clue that the death wasnt just him being Voldemort's true servant - but someone who was forced into doing something he really didnt want to ...
The reason he so willingly created the unbreakable curse with Malfoy was because he knew he would have to kill Dumbledore - at Dumbledore's orders - he knew Malfoy wouldnt need to do it - in essence Malfoy was always going to survive and be OK ...

Snape was in mental turmoil - he had just killed someone who - above all others doubts - showed faith in him, treated him like and equal and dare I say a friend - respected him - and his final act was to kill him ...

This is scary - but I actually feel sorry for Snape - he got himself a true friend at last - and he had to kill him ... kinda reminds me a lot of Harry - all the people he gets close too - bonds with - all die :(

[Dumbledore]

I'm not sure, there was somthing very odd about the way he died, everyone else just dropped dead after they had killed by Avada Kedavra

He was dead before he hit the floor (GoF)

"Causes instant death in a flash of green light" (HP- Lexion)

However Dumbledore:

Blasted into the air, for a split second he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull and then he fell slowly backwards, like a great rag doll. over the battlements and out of sight.

Somthing is wrong!

[Alz]

Totally agree!
This was bought up in Gumshoe's post about Slughorn and the cave ...
The actions on Dumbledore didnt appear to be consitant with what we have been told about AK.
AK seems almost passive in respect it does nothing but kill a person dead - they fall over or whatever - but dont jump into the air - dont reel from the impact - they just drop dead.

[Dumbledore]

I was re-reading Harry Potter 1 i noticed this:

I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even put a stopper to death

Maybe Snape gave Dumbledore that potion.

I know loads of people have said this but why didn't they cheak his pulse?

[Weasleyfanforever]

I was re-reading Harry Potter 1 i noticed this:

I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even put a stopper to death

Maybe Snape gave Dumbledore that potion.

I know loads of people have said this but why didn't they cheak his pulse?

I don't think there would have been time for Snape to give Dumbledore any potion, soon after AK he left the school grounds and apparated. If he did give it to him, he would have had to do it before Dumbledore left the school, I think.

And also, we don't know if there is some kind of magical autopsy or not. Dumbledore could have been taken to St. Mungos or had a doctor pronounce him dead on the school grounds, they might've checked his pulse and we just don't know it....

[Alz]

I suppose the lack of any real questions into Dumbledore 'post mortem' is another indicator of possible hope for you 'Dumbledore is alive' theorists.
I suppose we saw him laying with his body parts at strange angles etc - then i think it was Hagrid that eventually moved him ... but pretty much apart from the scene where Harry gets the RAB horcrux - there isnt that much detail on Dumbledore's proposed death.
Once again JKR I think does this on purpose no? ;)

[Dumbledore]

I've was thinking that Dumbledore had been taking the potion evrytime before he went out.I think the death was real and J.K said she cried while writting the book. Surley if it was fake she wouldn't care or maybe she is just lying?:confused:

[Alz]

JKR also said that the death in HBP wouldn't be significant - well I think we all know that isn't true now ...
Sometimes JKR will have to bend the truth slightly to ensure that her overall questions remain unanswered and the plot remains closed only to her - letting us have the details when she wants to give them out.
I know JKR cried when she killed off Sirius but wasn't aware she said the same about HBP.

If JKR is true to her word - then Dumbledore is dead - but we know that she possesses the skills to trick us in her writing and the fact we are all able to speculate means she did a great job - reminds me of the 'Is Snape evil' arguments - I don't think anyone apart from JKR can be 100% sure.

[Federalist_10]

Change of opinions because of a change of thought


5 seconds ago I would have downed this idea, but now I have changed my stance. (Now that I think about it) I don't think that Dumbledore can be dead because there is too much finality in his death. When Sirius died. Closure didn't really exist. JK kind of wanted us to keep thinking that Sirius would be dead. However, in this book JK gives us a finality so we can assume and know that Dumbledore is dead. Just because of the finality that she assures us would be enough to make us be wow. In the Last big
Something big is gonna happen in this last one I know it.

[kashlie]

Okay, if JKR said the death in HBP wouldn't be significant, she meant to the overall story. There were many deaths in HBP, but besides Dumbledore's, which was the most prominent?
I think that, with what Federalist has said, Dumbledore isn't dead. It was too final, there was too much emphasis put on his death and funeral, which has worked against the idea of him being dead.
Was there ever a mention of a memorial service for Sirius? No one told Harry anything about one for his parents.
The death in HBP isn't significant? Well, what about the disappearance of Dumbledore then? Perhaps this statement is still directed at Dumbledore, but it isn't the death we should be concentrating on...

[kashlie]

this might not seem really relevant, but i just finished watching an episode of Stargate SG-1 called Babylon.
I found it paralled some of the discussion here. For those who haven't seen it, I hope you don't mind a spoiler.
Mitchell, the main guy, is being trained (for his pending battle to the death) by a man who is sort of an enemy (doesn't trust Mitchell, as he is a stranger and trespassed)....
this man believes, in part, in the power of a 'god', called the Ori whom Mitchell knows is actually evil. When Mitchell, however, convinces the man that the Ori are not gods and are most definitely evil, the man steps forward as the one to fight Mitchell to the death. However, he first feeds Mitchell a potion, which was designed to make him appear dead for several hours. the man takes the body away personally, and when Mitchell awakes, lets him go home, the village unaware he is still alive.

So...Mitchell is Dumbledore, the man is Snape, the god is Voldemort.
It can be done, Dumbeldore could have faked his own funeral (there was a fire, and in PS/SS if I remember correctly, Hermione and Harry both had potions to get them safely through the fire). This episode allows us to look at this kind of situation from another angle. If Snape wanted to keep his true loyalties hidden, a plan like this could do that. The man from the village appeared to have killed Mitchell, and unless he says otherwise, they will go on to believe that, while Mitchell goes on to help defeat the Ori.
It was weird to watch. Dumbledore took Snape in and trusted him, and somewhat trained him probably, just as occured in this episode.