Snape and Dumbledore *Major Spoilers*

[Weasleyfanforever]

OK, I am sure I'll get some hate mail for this one, but here is what I am thinking.

We all know that Dumbledore had an ironclad trust in Severus, it couldn't be broken. I don't think that could have possibly come down to just one thing, one piece of information. I think that just because Harry only knows about Snape being the one that reported the prophecy, and that he went to Dumbledore, remorseful and broken, doesn't mean that's all there is to know. We don't know anything else, of any of the work that he did for Dumbledore. I simply do not believe that was the only reason that Dumbledore trusted Snape.

So, with that being said, we know that Dumbledore would trust Severus with his life. Or perhaps, more interesting.... his death.

Yup, I think it was all a set-up. Not a set-up to the effect that Dumbledore isn't really dead. Oh no, I think he's gone. Dumbledore is dead, and I think that there are two people that knew it was coming. That's right, Severus Snape and Albus Dumbledore.

Think about it. How much did Harry find out in this book, about his own, as well as Voldemort's past? Loads. Perhaps, almost everything that Dumbledore knew about the two.

Let's just say, that Dumbledore knew that he would have to give Harry as much information as possible, and the exit stage right. Why? For the same reason that James and Lily and Sirius had to die. Harry has to stand on his own two feet, and use his anger and and need for vengeance, and also, his ability to love, to kill the Dark Lord. On his own, not with the help of a protector, which he has had since before he was born.

So, Snape tells Dumbledore that he has forged an "Unbreakable Vow" with Narcissa. This gives Dumbledore the perfect oppurtunity. He starts lessons with Harry, to pass on the knowledge that he has, along the way, Harry also finds out more information about Snape, making him more and more suspicious of Snape. This leads perfectly to the end.

I don't doubt that Snape knew Harry was there, immobilized, watching the whole thing, his hatred mounting with each second. And why would it help with Snape seemingly a traitor and Dumbledore dead? Because of all the people that Harry has been close to, he has never so closely witnessed murder. Yes, he saw Cedric die, and as shattering as it must've been, they were not close, I daresay it didn't tear him apart as it would have had he been as close to Cedric as Cho had been. And yes, he also saw Sirius float through the Veil, but again, he could not grasp the fact that Sirius was dead so resolutely as he did when he saw Dumbledore Aveda Kedavra'd.

And that's what Harry needed, to, in one fell swoop, have his last and greatest protector, as well as his last real family figure, murdered before his eyes. Why? Because now he has, with the maturity not often seen of a 16 year old, resolutely made up his mind on what he has to do. Not what he wants to do, not what will make him happy, but what will make things right. He won't go back to Hogwarts, He won't become an Auror. He will find every last Horcruxe, and destroy them, including the one that resides in Voldemort's body.

And when he finally comes to Voldemort, Snape will be there. But he will still be working undercover, gleaning information about everything, for he has now become Voldemort's right hand man, above Lucuis, above Bellatrix. And when it comes down to it, I think Snape will help Harry, and he will finally be freed of all his demons.

[Boing]

LOL - WFF, I just posted something similar to this in the "Was it Real" thread . . .:D

So, yeah, I totally agree with you on this point. In fact, it's exactly what I was thinking as it was happening. I think that Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him if it came down to it and also knew about the Unbreakable Vow. So, when he was asking Snape to "help" him, he was actually asking him to kill him, to release him.

I'll think more on this later, but this is exactly what was going through my mind, too, WFF!

[Nimue]

I agree and I disagree. I had the inkling that something wasn't quite right about it all--Dumbledore's death that is. But would Dumbledore have really played that kind of trick on Harry with no warning at all? Was the whole purpose of his death only to fuel Harry's rage? I can't believe this of Dumbledore.

I must say that I felt this book would give more answers about Snape as a character. JK Rowling led us to believe that herself. But as it was, the most we see of Sname is at the beginning. Something is definately up with him (biggest understaement ever, I know) and I for one am not looking forward to a two or three year wait.

I don't know about u all, but I feel rather depressed now

[Boing]

No no. I don't think that Dumbledore was doing it as some sort of joke or trick or something.

I guess I was thinking that if he was cornered by DEs, he had told Snape to go ahead and kill him. Not only would it spare him possible torture, etc., but it would also really make Snape look like he is on the side of Voldemort. I thought that perhaps he had too many secrets and didn't want them to get into the wrong hands.

Also, I think Dumbledore really wanted to spare Malfoy. If he knew about Snape's promise, then he knew that Snape had to try and protect Malfoy and that it would mean that he, Dumbledore, might have to die. But rather than force an innocent (well, mostly innocent - he had played childish games before, but nothing like killing in cold blood) to shed blood and perhaps force him to go down the wrong path, he sacrificed himself for both Snape and Malfoy.

[amyleigh13]

well, now what happens to malfoy is he in the inner circle with snape? and voldemort , he wont be able to return to school does he still want to and what will the other students do to him coause they will find out what he was supposed to do and what about crabbe and goyle with they follow malfoy :eek:

[kaz]

I agree Boing, Dumbledore died to save Malfoy's innocence I think. I believe that Snape killed him so Malfoy didn't have to (and to save his own life so not to break the Unbreakable Vow) therefore saving Malfoys life- I think Malfoy will turn good. He trusted Dumbledore, I am sure, when he said he could help him but feared Voldemort's threat that he would kill him if he failed his mission- and he couldn't tell Dumbledore he wanted to swap sides with all of the death eaters around him as it would go straight back to Voldy and he would be hunted- and his family. I think Snape is good. I really do! This sounds silly, but I trusted Dumbledore's judgement and he wouldnt have put Harry's life in danger if he didn't have good reason to believe Snape has turly changed sides. Dumbledore knew of the Unbreakable Vow and instructed Snape to do as he needed to save both Harry and Malfoy.

[Nimue]

Excellent clarification Boing.

Actually, I have this dark twisted feeling about Snape--not that he's evil. My original theory when I started the book was that Snape would be forced to break his oath in order to stop Malfoy from killing Harry and would then die himself. Maybe something like that will still happen.

I can't help but hope that there will be some kind of reconciliation between Snape and Harry. I never thought he was evil. What is Rowling planning I'm so distraught :eek:

[Alz]

I keep hearing it and it makes me smile a little - Starwars and the famous Obe Wan and Darth Vadar moment - if you strike me down you will make me stronger ...

I think in essence this is very important here as we all suddenly now start to think (or maybe) that Snape was the Double Agent we all so rightly guessed but in fact his loyalties are to those of Voldemort...
I think this is a grave mistake to make so late on in the series ...
JKR did her manipulation to a whole level none of us could fail but to be amazed at - she wrote Snape to be out and out 'I'm Voldemorts biggest fan' ... and left us with that very conclusion ...

Manipulative as you will see - but seems that indeed many of you have seen through it to the actual matter of this ... that indeed Snape was doing what he was told by Dumbledore ..
Dumbledore took Harry out of the equation and left him a mere 'spectator' to the sequence of events as they happened - because he knew it had to happen to give Harry the final motivations needed.
If Harry was free to act - it wouldnt have gone down like it did - Harry was suppose to witness Snape killing Dumbledore ... because Harry already had renewed hatred from him after working out that he effectivly lead to his parent death ... but seeing Snape kill Dumbledore gave Harry the last push - he is never going to stop till he finds Snape - and guess where Snape will be - yep you got it.
So - I agree most strong that this was a stage where Dumbledore had to scarifice himself in order to ensure Harry had all he needed to tackle Voldemort ...
By killing Dumbledore like that - Snape ensured that he would be around and next to Voldemort - right hand man - shoulder to shoulder when Harry finally seeks to destroy the 7th Horcruxes.

I am starting to think that Snape might even have an Unbreakable Vow to keep Harry alive - bought on because he lead to the Potter's death - talk of redemtion and all ;)

[Buzzzz]

I definantly think Snape is not as evil as made out to be. Dumbledore had reason to trust him and therefore I believe that Snape wasn't only acting on Voldy's orders, but also Dumbledores.

Dumbledore died to save Malfoys innocence, and Snape killed to save his life... although the unbreakable vow was that Snape was to watch over, protect and forfil the duty if Malfoy could not. What puzzles me is why Snape jumped in when Malfoy was still able and some what willing to complete the task. Maybe to save Malfoys innocence, but since when has Snape cared?

Reading through the posts above, the comment was made that maybe Dumbledore was asking Snape to kill/release him. Why would he want to be released? And released from what exactly?

Also, something else that does not add up... Dumbledore was supposed to be one of the most powerful wizards... yet he did not put up a fight against Malfoy. You would think that although unarmed, Dumbledore would do more then try and convince Malfoy to not go through with his plan. Maybe Dumbledore knew what was coming to him...

[Fortescue]

What if Dumbledore had a horcrux, possibly planted in Fawkes?

I can see where Dumbledore might have sacrificed himself to keep his plan in motion, but if that is the case, then Snape is as good as dead no matter what the outcome as no one will believe that he was instructed by Dumbledore to kill him if the need did arise.

I also think there is still more to the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape then just the bit about his being sorry for telling Voldemort the bit of the prophecy he heard. What would Snape think Voldemort would do with this information, stitch it on a sampler? No, there was more to Dumbledore's trust then just what Harry perceived it to be - Dumbledore's not that stupid.

I don't believe he allowed himself to be killed simply to save Draco from committing murder. Draco, even though he couldn't bring himself to perform the AK - it's possible that because of his age and lack of experience, the spell wouldn't have killed Dumbledore anyway. Remember what Crouch/Moody said in DADA class - if the entire class cast the curse on him at once, he might not get as much as a nosebleed.

When Dumbledore found the first horcrux, the one that caused the damage to his hand, he said Snape was the one who saved him from dying. I think that the point of all this is that if Snape were not a part of Dumbledore's plan, then why would he have saved Dumbledore's life? What would be the point unless it was to polish the next generation of Death Eaters - to test Draco and see what he was made of. That still wouldn't make sense as it would have been much easier just to let Dumbledore die and be done with it - especially if Dumbledore knew Voldemort's secret of immortality, and Snape would then also know as Dumbledore would have had to disclose what he had touched that practically killed him.

Also, if Snape wasn't a part of Dumbledore's plan, he could have simply polished Harry off after Dumbledore, but he did not. He had the opportunity several times at the end, but even stopped the other Death Eaters from harming Harry in the guise of saving him for Voldemort. Um, I don't think that Voldemort would care who killed Harry as long as he was dead considering how he had faced Voldemort so many times and survived. That was definitely a ruse on Snape's part.

[kashlie]

Re-reading, Snape says to Narcissa and Bellatrix that he thinks Voldemort wants him to finish the job anyway, as if he expects Malfoy to fail.

So...either Snape killed him in cold blood, under instruction of Voldemort and as part of the Unbreakable Vow, or he informed Dumbledore of Voldemort's wishes as well as the Vow, and he and Dumbledore came to the agreement that if the situation arose, he stop Malfoy or any of the others from doing it, and do it himself.

[Weasleyfanforever]

[QUOTE=Fortescue]What if Dumbledore had a horcrux, possibly planted in Fawkes?

I can see where Dumbledore might have sacrificed himself to keep his plan in motion, but if that is the case, then Snape is as good as dead no matter what the outcome as no one will believe that he was instructed by Dumbledore to kill him if the need did arise. QUOTE]

I wanted to address these two points quick. First off, did Dumbledore have a horcrux? No! Horcruxes are the most evil magic, he forbade them to be taught at Hogwarts, some books dare mentioned their name, but wouldn't instruct on how to perform them, kinda like how Voldemort's name is not spoken because of all of the evil he has committed.

Secondly, Snape could prove it, there are several ways, if in fact, he was killing on Dumbledore's orders. He could take Veritaserum, he could show them a Pensieve. Occlumency could be used, but as we know, Snape is a master Leglimens/Occlumens. So, if Snape did kill on Dumbledore's orders, I think that he won't be killed for it, as long as he can prove that that's why he did it....

[Alz]

I wanted to address these two points quick. First off, did Dumbledore have a horcrux? No! Horcruxes are the most evil magic, he forbade them to be taught at Hogwarts, some books dare mentioned their name, but wouldn't instruct on how to perform them, kinda like how Voldemort's name is not spoken because of all of the evil he has committed.

Sorry - just had to say what an excellent observation ...
I was kinda toying with the same thoughts as Forte - but you are totally correct - Slughorn was very sure he wasnt to talk about it - enough to supress it from Dumbledore when he tried to capture the moment - as it were - for Pensive moments ...

[Fortescue]

Sorry - just had to say what an excellent observation ...
I was kinda toying with the same thoughts as Forte - but you are totally correct - Slughorn was very sure he wasnt to talk about it - enough to supress it from Dumbledore when he tried to capture the moment - as it were - for Pensive moments ...

But Dumbledore is a great and powerful wizard. He might have banned the subject of horcruxes from Hogwarts only to keep them away from the students who might get ideas, (like Tom Riddle) but he surely doesn't need a book to know how to perform one. (I can't really see him killing someone to split his soul, but....) Dumbledore might have seen the benefit of this type of magic, regardless of how dark it was. It seems that the more times you split your soul, the worse it gets as far as the evil part of it. Voldemort is definitely evil, and I'm sure Dumbledore could find a use for such Dark magic if it helped rid the world of Voldemort.

[kashlie]

Well, just to keep this idea flowing, Dumbledore DID defeat Grindewald, and as far as I know, that usually means killed, and of course, it was before Voldemort, but that doesn't mean he didn't make a Horcrux...

It is possible, but I think Dumbledore is gone, and that splitting his soul would be the last thing Dumbledore would do. Plus, it would almost go to supporting Blaise's DiE theory...

[Alz]

Exactly - Dumbledore does not fear death in any way shape or form - in fact he looked at it as his next great adventure ... why would he want to preserve himself and make him just as bad a Voldemort ... well DiE and all maybe :evil1:
No, I think the difference is that of the situation - Dumbledore has no fear of death - in fact mocks Voldemort because Voldemort is so hung up on it ... but Dumbledore wouldnt want to prolong his life more than the once around he was given ...
He can still be useful to Harry via his Picture in the Heads Office ... so not like he cant be there for Harry in some other capacity - and also - Dumbledore knows Harry has to kill Voldemort - no-one else - so why come back - to hold his hand?

The Snape/Dumbledore incident will fuel debate until book 7 comes out - you either take JKR at face value or you look deeper - no-one is right so far ... ;)

[Snuffles]

We all know that Dumbledore had an ironclad trust in Severus, it couldn't be broken. I don't think that could have possibly come down to just one thing, one piece of information. I think that just because Harry only knows about Snape being the one that reported the prophecy, and that he went to Dumbledore, remorseful and broken, doesn't mean that's all there is to know. We don't know anything else, of any of the work that he did for Dumbledore. I simply do not believe that was the only reason that Dumbledore trusted Snape.

I really agree with you that that wasn't the only reason Dumbledore so trusted in Snape. How could it? If I were Dumbledore, I would just shake Snape off. "Oh, I'm so sorry I ever reported the prophecy to the Dark Lord... I didn't know it was going to cause that tragedy... Even as I hated James, I didn't want him to die! I'm sorry! Forgive me!" Huh! very.. convincing, isn't it?

Dumbledore is dead, and I think that there are two people that knew it was coming. That's right, Severus Snape and Albus Dumbledore.
Was that why he was begging Snape?? "Severus... Please..."?? He was stabbed on the back by the person he trusted a lot, for some unknown reason.

[Alz]

It really does make you wonder what else Snape could have done to make Dumbledore so trusting in him ...
Even at the best of time Snape's motivations were and still are questionable - his loyalty not 100% exposed .. so what was it that kept Dumbledore so trusting ...

This reminds me of JKR quote - 'Snape has given Dumbledore his side of the story - and Dumbledore believes it' comments she made ...

On that assumption - face value and all - it could so easily just be because Snape fessed to Voldemort, then came back to Dumbledore - and Dumbledore's forgiving nature was fully exploited ...

[ginnyruin]

immediately after reading the 'spinner's end' chapter i thought 'holy cow, why is snape so evil?'..but after finishing the book and doing a great deal of thinking, i agree with many people on here that snape kill dumbledore was all part of dumbledore's plan..he knew he was a goner, wanted to protect draco, and all that jazz. i think the big question is why we should believe snap is truely on DD's side. My theory, which is only speculation, is that dumbledore had an unfaultering trust in Snape because of LOVE. :p
DD is all about the love and honestly, i think snape was in love with lily. Noo, I am not suggesting there was any romantic relationship between the two or that snape is somehow harry's father or any of that nonsence. I also know that in OotP, Snape's worst memory recounts calling lily a mudblood. i think he was embarrased or afraid to show his true feeling toward her or what have you and covered that up by a horrible insult.
snape ratted out the prophecy in exchange that LV would spare lily..but as we know lily hopped in front of harry, saving his life, thus ending hers. Once snape discovered that his "dark lord" killed the only person he ever loved he went to dumbledore, slobbered apologies all over the place thus forming an ironclad trust. Dumbledore knows that since snape lost the love of his life to LV, there's no way he'd ever go back to serving him. In essence, love is as good as gold to Dumbledore. This is why no one knows about why dd trusts snape..if harry knew snape was in love with his mum, he'd vomit!

[Alz]

LOL - I thought for a second you were going to say it was all about love - and Dumbledore loved Snape :eek: :D :D :D
That is a little slash but amusing all the same for a split second ...

I'm not sure it is so much love that Dumbledore values - I think it is more he feels everyone is good or capable of being good - as was stated in HBP - it is well known that Dumbledore's greatest weakness was his faith and trust in humanity - and that no matter the subject or person Dumbledore would look for the best in them ...
Some may call that niavity - some might call it compassion of the human race - but at the end of the day it proved to be Dumbledore's undoing ... even if Snape is good (and I think he is!) Dumbledore still could be seen as being too compassionate - and yah maybe loving ...

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I too believe that Dumbledore looked for the good in everyone and tried to focus on that and bring it out. But I also believe that kept his reservations when there was room for suspicion. Look at Tom Riddle. He never left any reason to be distrusted while at Hogwarts, yet Dumbledore was quite right in not trusting him. He still tried talking to him, giving him a chance as he did with Malfoy, but never was blinded by Riddles act. Dumbledore wasn't "Dumb"ledore.

[Alz]

I think after the stitch up on Hagrid - Dumbledore got wise to Riddle ... Riddle even says as much in CoS ... before this - I think Dumbledore did what he always did with 'lost causes' and tried to change them around ...
I know it is unpopular - but IMHO - Dumbledore did try to mentor Riddle until the point he realised that Riddle was going off the plot ...

[Fortescue]

Exactly - Dumbledore does not fear death in any way shape or form - in fact he looked at it as his next great adventure ... why would he want to preserve himself and make him just as bad a Voldemort

Maybe Dumbledore took steps to ensure that he'd be around, or some part of him, to help Harry and make sure he completed his task of finding Horcruxes. We saw what Dumbledore was willing to give up, as in his comment that the irreparable damage to his hand was worth one seventh of Lord Voldemort's soul. It could be that he was willing to do other, slightly out of character things, in order to make sure Harry succeeded, even if that meant doing something perceived by others as evil.

[Alz]

Maybe Dumbledore took steps to ensure that he'd be around, or some part of him, to help Harry and make sure he completed his task of finding Horcruxes. We saw what Dumbledore was willing to give up, as in his comment that the irreparable damage to his hand was worth one seventh of Lord Voldemort's soul. It could be that he was willing to do other, slightly out of character things, in order to make sure Harry succeeded, even if that meant doing something perceived by others as evil.
You keep trying to transcend the boarders between good and evil here don't ya - and you mock me for DiE? ;)
The real differences between Voldemort and Dumbledore - indeed the same as Voldemort and Harry is the most important - you have them becoming what they most hated - they are becoming like the person ...
For this reason - I don't think Dumbledore was a hypocrite - if your lucky you will see Fawkes come back - you will have Harry talking to Dumbledore via portrait - but not an alive Dumbledore = same as Lily, James and Sirius - give it up - they are dead!

[Fortescue]

We saw in the Chapter The White Tomb at the time Dumbledore's body burst into flames the shadow of a phoenix raise up and leave his body. JKR said the phoenix was Dumbledore's Patronus. The Patronus is a persons Spirit Guardian. Who's to say that the fact Dumbledore's Spirit Guardian didn't remain in his dead body for a reason! Usually the spirit is depicted as leaving the dead body immediately after death. There was some reason why his hung around for two days before leaving :p

[Haley's Comet]

Quidditch balls and Hogwarts to you all! Well it took me the best part of a month to get through 'The Half Blood Prince' and I am now just getting around to reading all the news and posts on the latest book. In regard to Dumbledore's death, after reading much of the input, much of what has been said has been very good. Myself, I would hope that Dumbledore's death is a part of an elaborate plan to draw Voldemort in closer for the kill. I hope he is not really dead, so yes, I'm kind of keeping a candle burning for the old guy hoping he will come back.
As for Severus Snape, I still have this stubborn point of view that tells me that the guy is not all bad. I would like to think that maybe, Snape was in on the whole thing to zap Dumbledore and make the people believe that he is dead. But, I think I am being just a bit too hopefull. We will see.

[Alz]

Dumbledore is now a portrait - that in itself is 100% proof to me that he isnt coming back ... I mean it is blatent!
If there was no portrait I might entertain you on the prospects of the Phoenix emerging from his ashes - but nope - like all other major characters in the series that bought it - you wont see an 'alive' version of them again ...

.. unless JKR goes all LoTR and a 'White' Dumbledore emerges ... :D

[Sirius Potter Fan]

.. unless JKR goes all LoTR and a 'White' Dumbledore emerges ... :D

OMG Blaise! I was just about to say, "unless Cumbledore pulls a Gandolf"! I know that when reading it the first time I was sure that that was exactly what would happen, especially since watching the LotR movies and noting the many parallels in the stories. but along with the fact that I had already predicted that DD would die, and for good reasons, I knew, and know, that it just ain't gon'na happen. We have the portrait, mostlikely memories in a pensive, possibly letters or notes he left with instructions. but no, just as with my poor Sirius, we will not see an "alive" Dumbledore.

[squib]

Ok, typically "noob" reply here . . . could Dumbledore have been one of the horcruxes? Knowing this, and knowing that LV is becoming more and more powerful and more and more confident and active, could that (as well as the circumstances of OotP) have lead DD to teach Harry all he could knowing of the need for his upcoming death? Some of the horcruxes are already gone, obviously, and some still remain - but knowing he's one of the horcruxes and knowing of the Malfoy/Snape agenda to kill him, he used it as the perfect opportunity to destroy a horcrux (the one in him) AND create the anger in Harry (as he witnessed DD get AK'd) AND save Malfoy AND save Snape from his bondage AND . . . it all fits, dontchathink? That's why he begged "Severus . . . Please . . . ." You are lead to believe he was pleading for his life, but I think he was begging Snape to complete what he came to the roof to do, he was encouraging him to AK him, not pleading for his life.

Ok, I'm ready to get slammed . . . :o

[Sirius Potter Fan]

Ok, typically "noob" reply here . . . could Dumbledore have been one of the horcruxes? Knowing this, and knowing that LV is becoming more and more powerful and more and more confident and active, could that (as well as the circumstances of OotP) have lead DD to teach Harry all he could knowing of the need for his upcoming death? Some of the horcruxes are already gone, obviously, and some still remain - but knowing he's one of the horcruxes and knowing of the Malfoy/Snape agenda to kill him, he used it as the perfect opportunity to destroy a horcrux (the one in him) AND create the anger in Harry (as he witnessed DD get AK'd) AND save Malfoy AND save Snape from his bondage AND . . . it all fits, dontchathink? That's why he begged "Severus . . . Please . . . ." You are lead to believe he was pleading for his life, but I think he was begging Snape to complete what he came to the roof to do, he was encouraging him to AK him, not pleading for his life.

Ok, I'm ready to get slammed . . . :o

That's OK Squib. . . we don't really "slam" here ;)

With JKR, anything is possible, but I seriously doubt that Dumbledore could have been a Horcrux. One thing that stands out to me is the oportunity for Voldemort to do it. I don't exactly think Dumbledore would just stand there and say "OK give me part of your Soul" :p I know Dumbledore would most likely rather die than be a Horcrux, so it would have to be done without his knowledge, meaning Dumbledore would have to be incapacitated for a period of time. . . possible, but I don't think probable. It sounds kind of like killing three birds with one stone instead of 2. It just doesn't click with me.

[Piper]

i think snape was in love with lily. Noo, I am not suggesting there was any romantic relationship between the two or that snape is somehow harry's father or any of that nonsence.

JKR hints at this in an interview with muggles.com I believe, when asked, she won't answer about a romantic link between lily and Snape, or lily and Lupin, she only says that Lily was quite a catch, which is really the way that it is in real life sometimes. Sometimes a really good person has people like that around, people who are loyal just because the person is such a good person.

Possibly though, since we do know that James at one time did save Snape's life, could he have been trying to repay the debt by wanting Voldermort to spare Lily to raise Harry? Or did he know Harry was to die? I will have to reread more.

If Dumbledore was basing his trust in Snape on Snape's sorrow over the death of James and Lily, there is one heck of a twist somewhere in it.

I hope that Dumbledore is not dead also, it just totally doesn't make sense that he would allow himself to die and not be around to help Harry, who hasn't even passed his apparthiation test yet!!!!!!!!!

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I have posted somewhere on this site that I think Snape had some real feelings for Lily, and did indeed request that Voldemort spare Lily if at all possible, but not to raise Harry, just to save Lily.

I hope that Dumbledore is not dead also, it just totally doesn't make sense that he would allow himself to die and not be around to help Harry, who hasn't even passed his apparthiation test yet!!!!!!!!!

Well after him doing it when he needed to, I think we know he will have no trouble passing the test ;)

I think not being around to help Harry is the main reason JKR had Dumbledore die. Harry had to learn to stand on his own two feet, to rely on himself and trust himself. And that was why I had predicted it before HBP was out. Everyone Harry has leaned on, JKR has taken away. She has a reason.

[Alz]

We seem to be covering stuff in other threads here - so in an effort to try and steer it all back and all I will close this one off ...
I think over the course of the past few weeks various elements of this thread have been broken into seperate threads - so best we continue it there :)

Thanks Wheezy for a great thread of debate!