Harry's lack of mourning - a problem? (Spoiler)

[Fortescue]

I guess my biggest problem with HBP was JKR's completely ignoring Harry's time of mourning for Sirius. There was little to no mention of it!! I thought that was rather short-sighted considering how she showed Harry at the end of OotP in such emotional turmoil, then drops into HBP, and nothing!!

If Harry's biggest strength is supposed to be his ability to love, and Sirius was supposed to be the most important person in his life to have died when Harry was old enough to understand the pain of death, why was there no mourning?

Is Harry losing his ability to love and will this weaken him in someway, especially after watching Dumbledore die?

[Buzzzz]

I have read a few threads/posts which have touched on this issue and I'm glad someone brought it up.

I think J.K Rowling meant to make the book this way. She seems to be putting across the message that Harry has gotten over the fact that the most important person in his life was murdered. Although, like Fortescue, I agree that maybe there is a reason behind this which we will see in book 7. Just thinking about it now, I have a thought.
Maybe Dumbledore's death was a test. Maybe Dumbledore also saw that Harry had suddenly stopped mourning the death of his godfather and was wondering exactly what Fortescue said above. Is Harry losing his ability to love?
Maybe Dumbledore sacrificed himself to see whether this was so, with Snape as an allie.

Harry did not react the way I thought he would when Dumbledore died. I expected him to kick and scream, even try and kill Snape, who obviously did not want to hurt him. He lost the most important person in his life last year and this year, a wizard who has been in his life since day one was murdered. You would think there would be more of a reaction from Harry.

Yes Fortescue, I think it is quite possible that Harry may be losing his ability to love.

[yarvelling]

But Harry DID try to get back at Snape....he chased him through the castle and out across the grounds, flinging every jinx, every curse he could think of at him, but Snape just kept deflecting them until Harry fell and lost his wand, then Snape made good his escape.
I think as to his apparent lack of mourning, during the couple of weeks at the Dursleys, he'd probably worked the worst through his system, and had steeled himself to fight on against Voldemort, heartened when DD informed him that he would be coming to collect him, and so he tried to focus on what was to come rather than linger in the past. We did see a few instances where Harry deliberately avoided talk of or mention of Sirius because it still rubbed a raw nerve.
I don't think he's losing his ability to love, I just think he's growing up fast and the years of bullying from Dudley probably strengthened his character and now Harry is able to bury the unpleasant when he needs to.

[Buzzzz]

But Harry DID try to get back at Snape....he chased him through the castle and out across the grounds, flinging every jinx, every curse he could think of at him, but Snape just kept deflecting them until Harry fell and lost his wand, then Snape made good his escape.
Yes, I understand he chased him and flew curses and jinxes at him. I was suggesting that, after him being at school, picking on Harry, and getting away with so many things, that Harry would be much more mad then he was.
If I were in Harry's situation I would throw the first Unforgivable curse I could think of at him. Not a spell that would hang him upside down, or disarm or contain him. I would want him dead and I thought Harry would be the same.

[Hermione]

I also think it unrelistic that Harry was so unemotional over the loss of Sirius in the begining of HBP. It says that when Dumbledore came to pick him up, he had only been there for two weeks. I can understand how he would have moved through some grieve by then and resolved to try to move on, but he seemed so viod of feeling towards the death of his godfather. Talking about settling his estate didn't seem painful at all.

I do think with each death, Harry is maturing and learning the pull of the Dark Arts. He can understand the pain of living and knows how someone would want to go to Voldemort and be his servant.

[yarvelling]

Buzzzz, page 562 of the UK edition...Harry TWICE attempts to use Cruciatus on Snape..both times they are repelled. Snape turns to Harry and sneering, shouts "No Unforgivable Curses from you, Potter!", and goes on to shout "You haven't got the nerve or the ability -".

[Boing]

I don't think his is losing his ability to love at all. I think his resolve is being steeled through these attacks. As for the death of Sirius - he mourned a lot at the end of OotP and in the beginning of HBP, he's sitting for two weeks not doing much of anything but mourning.

On another note, as much as we all loved Sirius, Harry had very limited contact with him. I mean, he only met him in his third year (at the end of it) and so he knew him for two years. One of those years, Sirius was on the run. The other he was cooped up in Number 12. So, while he loved Sirius and gained comfort from his letters and things and from the idea that he had a "family" out there somewhere, he didn't know him that well.

I think that three weeks or so of mourning is enough . . .

Plus, the pangs of the death still came back to him throughout the book in different ways - not receiving owls, etc.

I think Harry is just learning to steel himself against the inevitable deaths of people he loves. He saw it all through the schoolyear when people around him were learning of their family members' deaths. I think he has simply grown up and matured.

[Alz]

Scary this - but for once I might be with Forte :eek:
I think JKR as shown us that Harry is starting to loose his one biggest strenght!
Althought we would all love to see Harry tough, strong and raring to go kill Voldemort - we have to remember the words that Harry's biggest strenght is Voldemorts biggest weakness ...
Once Harry starts to supress love (another sign of this is when he dumps Ginny) and follows the path of revenge and killing - he is playing the same way as Voldemort - and his biggest strenght over Voldemort - the power he knows not - Harry will loose his edge!
Someone needs to give Harry some sugar - you know love and kisses - hugs and such before he becomes that harderned - he becomes like Voldemort :eek:

[Fortescue]

I know what Harry said, but I get the feeling that Ginny won't allow him to dump her, and that Harry will think about it while away from her for his short stay at the Dursleys, and he'll figure it was a really stupid thing to do.

Maybe his longing for her could be a boost to his love power, but for him to simply go cold turkey might damage that power. JKR said in the interview today about book seven that she put some pretty big clues at the end of book six. Maybe one of those clues was the reason Harry gave Ginny for the breakup - he didn't want Voldemort to find out that Ginny was now the most important person to him and use or kill her - so logic suggests that this might be exactly how the final battle comes about. Voldemort again takes Ginny and Harry is forced to rescue her.

[kashlie]

I remember that Harry had refused food and stayed in his room the whole time he was at the Dursleys. But it threw me too, when Harry all of a sudden seemed 'over it'. I hardly knew my grandmother, and it took me a while to accept that she had died, even at the age of 96, but even now I get that feeling that anytime now we will hear from her. I think that when Harry decided to accept it, was the first time that I said, I don't like where this is going.
I am also guessing that a big part of the end of Book 7 will be Harry learning to love again, if he is losing the ability now. He will fight his way through, destroying the Horcruxes, but when it comes to his final battle, I am pretty sure all the love he has felt for the people he has lost, all the friends he still has, and all the love that still exists around him despite the war, will help him be triumphant over Voldemort.

[Tonks]

Well, I really don't think Harry is losing his ability to love. I really think that Ginny will be like Tonks, and refuse to allow the man she loves to get rid of her.. she's not going to stand with it, even if he wants it for her protection..

I do think that Harry seemed to have gotten over Sirius' death pretty quickly, but I don't think that it was because he barely knew him or anything. Sirius and Harry were as close, or even closer, than Harry was with Ron and Hermione.. I really just think that he decided, as he told Dumbledore, not to shut himself away or crack up as it isn't what Sirius would have wanted. Harry has began to realize more and more just how short life is and that he has to make the most of it.. Still, even after making that decision, I think he should have shown a bit more weakness and such about Sirius' death because that would have made his grief much more realistic..

[Boing]

I was just throwing some stuff out there when I said that he might not have known him very long and that could affect his mourning. What is important to remember is that, despite those "rules" of grief that I posted about in another thread, people do tend to take their own paths when dealing with death. Some could skip some "steps" while others take longer on some of them.

To some people here, it seems like Harry didn't spend enough time grieving, while to others, it may appear he took a completely healthy path.

I think we should also remember that JKR is probably writing this based upon her own experiences with death - you can't help but put your own experiences in sometimes - so perhaps this is the way she dealt with it. She mourned her loss, then realized she had to "buck up" and move on with living her own life . . .

[The SketchWolf]

I see that it's already been pointed out that Harry DID attempt to kill Snape, so I won't harp on that, but as for mourning...

There's been a big change in Harry's attitude. Remember the little hormonal monster in need of Midol that we left in OotP? He's changed (thank God). He handles things differently now. I think at first, the very concept of death through his already unstable world completely out of balance. After all, we all know what death is, but experiencing it almost makes you feel as if you never even knew of it before. It's a whole new ball game, if you'll excuse an old cliche. Now Harry understands that yes, death happens, there's nothing he can do so he needs to get over it. He needs to walk foward without looking back. He'll always keep Sirius close to his heart, but now's not the time to reminice about the good ol' days. And never forget that spirits (not ghosts- spirits) never die.

I don't think that he mourned for Dumbledore in the same fashion because, frankly, Dumbledore's more the kind of person I'd expect to play 'Another One Bites the Dust' at his funeral, if you get my gist. Harry had a point- we're talking about the guy whose first words to Harry at Hogwarts were 'Nitwit, blubber, oddment, tweak!'

And now if you'll excuse me I believe I've bored you all to death with my long-winded discussion, so I think I'll go.

[Snuffles]

Harry WAS mourning about Sirius's death.
Remember the moment he saw or heard about Bellatrix? (can't remember.. don't have book right now). I remember vaguely that he said something along the lines like, "She killed Sirius!" Then when Harry met Tonks, who was grieving, he thought it was more like him who killed Sirius than Tonks, and was very struck to his heart. At the end of OotP, I believe Harry has been very upset, and was yelling at Dumbledore about Sirius? Over the summer, too, Harry was so sad and upset that he was never going to get another letter from Sirius, or ever talk to him again. Doesn't this sound like mourning and grieving?

[Fortescue]

I guess I'd call Harry's remark about Sirius and never getting another letter as more of a walk down memory lane - a regret - you can't really call that mourning.

I guess the most significant thing I noticed through HBP is the fact that on more than one occasion, Harry thought of his hate for Bellatrix. Harry has always hated Snape - but now it's a ten-fold kind of hate. He even asked at the end how Dumbledore could be so stupid as to trust Snape.

Harry didn't grieve that much for Sirius and now he won't have a lot of time to grieve for Dumbledore --- I think he will basically be functioning on hate and retribution as he sets out to find the Horcruxes, Snape, Bellatrix and Voldemort.

[Alz]

I think that could be a key right there - we have all spoken about OoTP and the comment that Harry's biggest strength is Voldemort's biggest weakness ...
If we are right and now Harry is running on hate and retribution - this wont help him at all - in fact it makes him more like Voldemort ...
I think this was intentional - Harry feels that by freezing out anyone around him he can form an emotional bond with - it will make him more resolute - but I fear that all this death and destruction around him was on purpose to weaken his biggest strenght - I think Harry will work this out in book 7 - and once again hold the upper hand ..

[Fortescue]

If we are right and now Harry is running on hate and retribution - this wont help him at all - in fact it makes him more like Voldemort ...
I think this was intentional - Harry feels that by freezing out anyone around him he can form an emotional bond with - it will make him more resolute - but I fear that all this death and destruction around him was on purpose to weaken his biggest strenght - I think Harry will work this out in book 7 - and once again hold the upper hand ..

JKRs whole plot in the series is for Harry to defeat Voldemort alone. That is why she killed his parents, and then Sirius and Dumbledore. She has made a point to make him a solitary "good" character against the most "evil" bad character. I think she did that for a reason, just as she showed Harry distancing himself from Ginny.

In book six she showed a mature Harry - one who came to the realization that what he had to do, he had to do alone. Harry can't have all the love and innocence he had when he was eleven as he's seen too much and been through too much. If he faced Voldemort alone, there is no way that hate can't play a part in that considering all he has lost. He's already had the realization more than once through the books that all the people who have died, no matter who killed them, all could be blamed on Voldemort. I don't see how he can go into the final battle without a good amount of hate driving him.

[Alz]

Well - at least it wasnt the Heir of Slytherin Versus the Heir of Gryffindor ;) :D
Sorry - had to get that in there ... :p

OK, so you are right - he has a huge amount of hate - but I dont see that as helping him ..
Anything that makes him more and more like Voldemort is going to work in Voldemort's favour - because lets face it he has had a lot more years in perfecting hatred and evil ...
The differences that define both of them will be - as JKR said - Voldemort's biggest weakness if Harry's greatest strength ... Harry will work that one out and will supress the primal need to vent all his anger and instead adopt an approach that will lead to Voldemort's death ... he will be compassionate and loving ... :D

[squib]

Once Harry starts to supress love (another sign of this is when he dumps Ginny) and follows the path of revenge and killing . . .

I don't think this is a suppression of love. It is the responsible thing to do in ensuring her safety, Harry is showing his maturity. Hate to make this comparison, but it is much the same as when Spidey refuses to consummate the now-mutual love at the end of the first Spiderman movie - it was for the same reason, that evil always goes after loved ones and he is protecting her.

Regarding the mourning period - different strokes for different folks. When you are busy, there sometimes isn't time to mourn. It comes out eventually, but not everyone's mourning schedule is alike. Now, agreed, at the end of OP, he had plenty of time to mourn on Privet Drive, but he was more angry and inquisitive than anything else. Those feelings took precedence, sometimes there isn't time to simply sit and dwell on the death of a loved one - I think that's why we immediately plan a wake - it gives the mourner something to do/plan/concentrate on. We have wakes, Harry had bigger issues.

No doubt in 7 it'll all come to a head. Harry has already indicated that even if Hogwarts reopens in the fall, he won't be there (I'm sure this is discussed in some other thread that, being new, I haven't found yet). This time away will certainly give him time to think about the two father figures he lost only 12 months apart.

[ChienNoir]

Well, we all grieve differently. Some people are outwardly expressive, while others prefer to keep their emotions to themselves. Look at Harry's background with the Dursleys, where he was expected to be unobtrusive. Shows of emotion were inevitably met with rebukes and abuse. I can't imagine Harry being up-front about his losses, but I can imagine him grieving very deeply within himself.

As an "inward" griever myself, I've had people speak ill of me for not crying enough about my losses...as if the number of tears shed is an indicator of the level of one's grief!

Some people react to loss with despair and depression, others react to it by strengthening their resolve to do what the lost ones would have them do! In Harry's case, I think his reactions clearly show the depth of his affection for Sirius and Dumbledore -- he resolves to fight the battle his loved ones can no longer fight.

Clear as mud, no?

Le Blaque Dawg

[Alz]

I suppose the point I was trying to make is that the big difference between Harry and Voldemort - strength etc is that Harry can love and be loved ...
Voldemort doesn't know it and not sure he has ever felt it ..
I suppose what I was saying is that while Harry has the ability to feel emotions and be - well human - he still possesses skills that Voldemort doesn't ... skills that are Harry biggest strength and Voldemort's biggest weakness ...
If Harry starts to harden up - forget the humanity in him - realise it is ok to grieve, be upset, care, love blah blah - then he will loose this strength and also become more like the person he is seeking to destroy ...

[Fortescue]

In order for Harry to be effective against Voldemort he also has to become mature. He has to give up his naive thoughts and ideas. Throughout the books, JKR has showed the kindness and forgiveness of Harry in the nice, sweet, innocent little boy way that he had. Harry now has to throw all that aside. We will probably see sort of the same type of Harry in book seven that we saw in OotP - a very emotional and confused Harry.

Considering what he's lost, with little to no time to cope with the loss of Dumbledore, now he will be off looking for Horcruxes which he has no idea where to look, and one object still unknown. Even though Harry has the power Voldemort knows not - I think Harry will also need to keep a bit of the anger, hate and need for vindication within him as he might need a to be a bit more like Voldemort in order to complete his task. He can't go through the whole of the final book with the mindset of an innocent little boy or he will surly die now that he has no one to protect or advise him.

[Alz]

I cant help but feel you are missing my point on this ...
My point was that Dumbledore said that Harry's biggest strength was Voldemort's biggest weakness - I just extended this to hypothesise that if Harry becomes too hardened and starts to forget about his love and compassion - Voldemort regains a foothold - after all Dumbledore said it was Harry biggest strength and Voldemort's weakness - we all know that he seem incapable of loving so can never understand the power of it - and also have know concept of how far a person will go in the name of it.

[Fortescue]

I can't help but feel you are missing my point ;)

I'm not saying Harry won't still know love. I'm saying he needs his anger and the hate for his target in order to complete his task. We saw in HBP how Harry no longer feared adults by the way he spoke to the Minister of Magic. He did not back down - he did not cower like a child. He said what was on his mind and refused to give any information to the most socially powerful man in his part of the Wizarding world. If Sirius's death did nothing more than give Harry a bit more resolve, Dumbledore's death hardened him.

He still has the one thing that Voldemort doesn't have; the capacity and the knowledge of love. Voldemort doesn't have the ability or the complete soul to love. It could be the reason that Voldemort left Harry so quickly when he tried to possess him in the Ministry in OotP - because Harry's feelings of love for Sirius did something to Voldemort's damaged bit of soul that remained. No, I'm not saying Harry has totally lost his ability to feel love, but the anger and hate he now possesses will be important to finish what he started with Dumbledore. ;)

[Alz]

No, I'm not saying Harry has totally lost his ability to feel love, but the anger and hate he now possesses will be important to finish what he started with Dumbledore. ;)
Fighting fire with fire isn't always the best way - I would personally use the traits I possessed and made me stronger to a person who is deficient and incapable of replying ...
Harry fighting Voldemort with aggression and hatred will be bad advice - because Voldemort has been using hatred and anger a lot longer than Harry - and doesn't have the emotional hang up's Harry will have ...

[Boing]

I think Blaise brought up a really good point about Harry knowing how to love, but also able to be loved. It might not just be Harry's love that gets him through, but also the love that others have for him (in terms of his friends being willing to sacrifice themselves for his benefit). And when Harry sees that sacrifice, he will know the love that is there for him and that he felt for that person.

On another note, I think that Harry's anger isn't the same kind of anger that Voldemort has in him. Voldemort has a complete absence of love/compassion. Harry has anger that stems from his love.

[Fortescue]

On another note, I think that Harry's anger isn't the same kind of anger that Voldemort has in him. Voldemort has a complete absence of love/compassion. Harry has anger that stems from his love.

That is completely true. Harry's anger is one of love and loss. Voldemort's only remorse is when he doesn't get what he wants, and I'm not sure that could be considered remorse.

He didn't get the DADA job from Dumbledore, but then I don't believe he wanted it to begin with. If he had been out after more items for Horcruxes and didn't get them, that would have been his only remorse. Harry has lost people that he loved and his type of anger is fueled by his love, therefore, it can't be completely bad.

[Alz]

I also think that is well observed ...
If you think about that and expand it - the emotions Voldemort displays are always the one's that we would term negative - hatred, anger, amusement at others misfortunes.
In fact the only time he seems to display any joy is when his actions have lead to another's pain and suffering.

The fact Harry is at the other end of the spectrum on this - he feels hatred only based on the cruel and callous actions by Voldemort - not hatred for hatred sake - but because Harry is compassionate and is feeling the loss of someone, once again this comes back to the ability to love and be loved ... Harry's aggression is based on a compassionate feelings - Voldemort's only emotions are based on cruelty.

[Fortescue]

If Harry goes back to Godric's Hollow as he stated at the end of HBP, maybe there he will be able to grieve for all he's lost. His parents, Sirius, and now Dumbledore. Maybe there he will find the strength and courage he needs to complete his task, and bring the prophecy that Voldemort set in motion, to a conclusion for the good. Maybe a trip to Godric's Hollow will be just what Harry's love engine needs to boost that within him that makes him the "One" destined to defeat Voldemort.

[kashlie]

that is a very ''romantic'' idea! i quite like it, actually.
i agree that he needs to accept was he has to do, but yeah, he can't do that until he accepts what he has already lost. and who knows what else he might find at godrics hollow to help him on his way

[Alz]

Yah that is an agree as well!
I think that Harry has a chance here to really release ... I think he will go there alone and as such will let it all out - I mean finally standing in the place where parents had died and all ...

Kasher makes a great point - perhaps another thread - but there was other houses and people in Godric's Hollow - maybe he will happen upon one that gives him some further information about what was going on up at that house the hours, days, weeks or even years before ...