View Full Version : The Ring *Spoilers*
You will die in 7 days..
Ok, sorry, couldn't pass that up.. now to the actual purpose of this thread - ;)
Everyone who read HBP knows that Voldemort turned the ring previously owned by Marvolo Gaunt into one of his Horcruxes. Dumbledore then discovered this ring in the ruins of the Gaunt shack, and destroyed it. However, I am curious as to when Dumbledore destroyed this - and if this is how he injured his hand..
Let me try to explain - ;)
When Harry gets his first glimpse of Dumbledore in HBP, he is wearing this ring on his left hand:
HBP - Ch. 4: Horace Slughorn (US version p. 67-68)
'He [Dumbledore] shrugged and held his hands wide, as though to say that age had its compensations, and Harry noticed a ring on his uninjured hand that he had never seen Dumbledore wear before: It was large, rather clumsily made of what looked like gold, and was set with a heavy black stone that had cracked down the middle. Slughorn's eyes lingered for a moment on the ring too, and Harry saw a tiny frown momentarily crease his wide forehead.'
I think two parts of this paragraph should be noted - the crack in the ring and the fact that Dumbledore was wearing it.
(Slughorn's reaction should probably also be noted but I'll bring that up again later.)
The next time we see the ring, Gaunt himself is wearing it:
HBP - Ch. 10: The House of Gaunt (US version p. 207)
' "That's right!" roared Gaunt. For a moment, Harry thought Gaunt was making an obscene hand gesture but then realied that he was showing Ogden the ugly, black-stoned ring he was wearing on his middle finger, waving it before Ogden's eyes. . . '
I thought it particularly interesting that the stone is not described as cracked here, and this led me to wonder if it cracked when Dumbledore destroyed the Horcrux it contained. .
To continue, we see the ring again at the end of the same chapter:
HBP - Ch. 10: The House of Gaunt (US version p. 215)
'He [Harry] turned away again, and was almost at the door when he saw it. Sitting on one of the ltitle spindle-legged tables that supported so many frail-looking silver instruments, was an ugly gold ring set with a large, cracked, black stone.'
Once again, the stone is cracked..
Next chapter:
HBP - Ch. 13: The Secret Riddle (US version p. 278)
'Harry got to his feet. As he walked across the room, his eyes fell upon the little table on which Marvolo Gaunt's ring had rested last time, but the ring was no longer there.
Now, why would the ring be gone?
I promise I'll explain myself better after this last one, just bear with:
HBP - Ch. 23: Horcruxes (US version p. 503-504)
'But the six Horcruxes, then," said Harry, a little desperately, "how are we supposed to find them?"
"You are forgetting. . . you have already destroyed one of them. And I have destroyed another."
"You have?" said Harry eagerly.
"Yes indeed," said Dumbledore, and he raised his blackened, burned-looking hand. "The ring, Harry. Marvolo's ring. And a terrible curse there was upon it too. Had it not been - forgive me the lack of seemly modesty - for my own prodigious skill, and for Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale. However, a withered hand does not seen an unreasonable exchange for a seventh of Voldemort's soul. The ring is no longer a Horcrux."
"But how did you find it?"
"Well, as you now know, for many years I have made it my business to discover as much as I can about Voldemort's past life. I have traveled widely, visiting those places he once knew. I stumbled across the ring hidden in the ruin of the Gaunts' house. It seems that once Voldemort had succeeeded in sealing a piece of his soul inside it, he did not want to wear it anymore. He hid it, protected by many powerful enchantments, in the shack where his ancestors had once lived (Morfin having been carted off to Azkaban, of course), never guessing that I might one day take the trouble to visit the ruin, or that I might be keeping an eye open for traces of magical concealment."
"However, we should not congratulate ourselves too heartily. You destroyed the diary and I the ring, but if we are right in our theory of a seven-part soul, four Horcruxes remain." '
Now, the actual attempt to explain.
The first time we see the ring, it is cracked. When it was worn by Gaunt, it is not described as uncracked, but nor is it described as cracked either, which leads me to wonder whether or not the stone cracked when Dumbledore removed the Horcrux from it.
Now, I have to wonder when Dumbledore removed the Horcrux. It seems to me that he became injured from the curse upon the ring, but once that curse was lifted he could wear the ring without being further maimed, as we see when he arrives to pick up Harry and has it on his left hand.
However, if that is so, did Dumbledore also remove the Horcrux from the ring at the same time?
When Dumbledore says "The ring is no longer a Horcrux", is he saying that because the ring is completely destroyed or just that he managed to get the Horcrux part destroyed but keep the ring intact?
Basically, did Dumbledore have to destroy the ring completely to destroy the Horcrux?
If so, why, at the end of the last quote, does it seem that Dumbledore is saying he destroyed the entire ring like Harry destroyed the entire diary?
If not, was Dumbledore wearing the ring around while it was still a Horcrux? Wouldn't that be extremely dangerous?
Lastly, I find it pretty interesting that Slughorn had this reaction to the ring. He had seen it before, because Tom Riddle had gotten it after killing his father and had it on when questioning Slughorn about the Horcruxes. It seems Slughorn remembered the ring, but is there a possibility he knew that Voldemort had made it into one of his Horcruxes?
Ok, I'm finally done. Phew. I think I got that all out pretty much how I wanted too.. so thanks for reading it all, even though it wasn't that complicated and just had a lot of quotes I wanted to include..
Thoughts?
I like the way you think. With that last quote, HBP - Ch. 23: Horcruxes (US version p. 503-504), I believe it explains at least one of your questions. I think Dumbledore did maim his hand by destroying the horcrux in the ring. What puzzled me about this was in the quote Dumbledore said "Had it not been - forgive me the lack of seemly modesty - for my own prodigious skill, and for Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale." Obviously Snape had some part in this. Whether it was saving Dumbledore's hand or helping to destroy the horcrux. What do you think?
I don't think the ring had to be completely destroyed for the horcrux to no longer exsist. And I also think it probably would be safe to wear the ring with the horcrux in it. Unless, the horcrux was like what was in the diary. Maybe it was able to control the person wearing it like the diary did to Ginny in CoS. *shrugs*
Fortescue
19-07-2005, 02:08
I think the ring was cracked when Dumbledore cast his spell to remove the Horcrux. I got the feeling while reading that he sustained the injury to his hand when he actually found the ring and touched it. It was cursed by Voldemort just for that reason - the first person to find the ring and touch it would die, thus the Horcrux would be safe.
As for Slughorn - he was the head of Slytherin House - the ring was a Slytherin artifact, I'm sure Slughorn knew that in the same way Dumbledore did. I wonder though, Slughorn might not have suspected that Tom would actually use the information he, Slughorn, had given him regarding Horcruxes, but he might have heard word that Tom was the last remaining descendant of Slytherin and maybe a bit of his family background since most of the heads seem to know that kind of stuff about the students in their houses.
Remember, Slughorn was big on people of status - what bigger status could you have then being the last descendant to someone who was as powerful and well noted as Salazar Slytherin? He probably practically wet himself to be chummy with Tom - but I don't think Tom was dumb enough to confide any of his plans or actions with his teacher - after all he had to commit at least seven murders in order to carry those plans out.
I like the way you think. With that last quote, HBP - Ch. 23: Horcruxes (US version p. 503-504), I believe it explains at least one of your questions. I think Dumbledore did maim his hand by destroying the horcrux in the ring. What puzzled me about this was in the quote Dumbledore said "Had it not been - forgive me the lack of seemly modesty - for my own prodigious skill, and for Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale." Obviously Snape had some part in this. Whether it was saving Dumbledore's hand or helping to destroy the horcrux. What do you think?
Thanks ;)
See, I was wondering whether the last quote meant that Dumbledore injured his hand destroying the Horcrux, or simply finding it. There is another part a few paragraphs after the third quote..
HBP - Ch. 10: The House of Gaunt (US version p. 216)
"But how come -? Have you always had it?" [Harry]
"No, I acquired it very recently," said Dumledore. "A few days before I came to fetch you from your aunt and uncle's, in fact."
"That would be around the time you injured your hand, then, sir?"
This one leads me to believe he sustained such injury in the process of finding the ring, but of course he could have destroyed the Horcrux during the same period of time, I suppose.
As far as Snape goes, I think Snape quickly prevented the curse from spreading to the rest of Dumbledore's body and thus saved his life. I do wonder what Snape was doing at Hogwarts and not at Spinner's End..
Slughorn - I don't know I sort of think he was pretty darn aware that Tom used the information he gave him regarding the Horcruxes and that is why he was so ashamed of giving Dumbledore the memory. It really does seem too obvious for Slughorn not to notice - he definitely committed murders, and turned evil, and could not die. Wouldn't that be hint enough to Slughorn that Tom really did use the information he gave him?
Sirius Potter Fan
19-07-2005, 10:00
I don't know when Dumbledore had orriginaly asked Slughorn for the memory, but I am assuming that it was after he found the ring. I think it likely that he was, as he said just "looking around" for any clues he could find concerning Voldemort. but then finding the ring so protected in the shack led him to the revelation of what Voldemort had done to sustain his life. I think that, in turn, is what led him to question Slughorn, thinking that since he (DD) had just destroyed the horcrux, that there may be more. I believe that is what DD wanted from slughorn's memory, was the number of them, not whether or not Voldemort knew of them.
The crack I believe was indeed caused by destroying the Horcrux. The ring did not need to be entirely destroyed for the Horcrux to be destroyed. The Diary was dammaged, not entirely destroyed, hence Dobby's freedom!
I think that at the time when Riddle first asked Slughorn about the Horcrux, Slughorn first considered it to be curiosity, although about a very forbidden subject. However as the conversation progressed, it hit him where Voldemort was leading with it, but at that point he became afraid of him. I believe that when Slughorn saw the dammaged ring on Dumbledore's hand, he connected the thoughts and tried to at that point reconstruct his memory.
Interesting. I think the crack in the ring was caused when Dumbledore removed/destroyed the horcrux.
As for Snape being at school, it seemed that Dumbledore did this right at the end of the school year and it would not surprise me if the teachers all stick around a bit and wrap up the year . . . He got Harry after two or three weeks, so he could have done that within one or two days of school getting out. Perhaps he asked Snape to stick around just in case . . .
My question - why would he continue to wear the ring?
He finds the ring - does what he needs to for ridding the Horcrux from it - why the heck does he keep wearing it?
That just seems - well so random!
It obviously damages the man when he first gets it - but why did he wear it?
My question - why would he continue to wear the ring?
He finds the ring - does what he needs to for ridding the Horcrux from it - why the heck does he keep wearing it?
That just seems - well so random!
It obviously damages the man when he first gets it - but why did he wear it?
Kinda weird huh?
You know, to go a bit off here, perhaps Dumbledore isn't all that unlike Voldemort and also enjoys collecting trophies.. Still, Gaunt did mention that the ring was pretty valuable and had some special crest on it that made it so.. or maybe Dumbledore just wanted to see Slughorn's reaction to it..
Sirius Potter Fan
19-07-2005, 18:10
.. or maybe Dumbledore just wanted to see Slughorn's reaction to it..
Really, I think that may have been it, also, if Snape is truly on the "other" side, it may have beenf or him to see as well.
... also, if Snape is truly on the "other" side, it may have beenf or him to see as well.
But would Snape be able to identify the ring? Dumbledore knows that he used to be a Death Eater and as such may have seen Voldemort wear the ring before he his it in the ruins of the Gaunt house..
If Snape is truly on the other side, the only thing that would have resulted from Dumbledore wearing the ring around Snape would be that Snape would have alerted Voldemort to the fact that Dumbledore had his old ring. Snape himself would probably not have known about the Horcruxes, and may not even thought to mention it, but if he did, Voldemort would now realize that Dumbledore was searching for and attempting to destroy the other parts of his soul..
mimbulus mimbletonia
19-07-2005, 20:14
But would Snape be able to identify the ring? Dumbledore knows that he used to be a Death Eater and as such may have seen Voldemort wear the ring before he his it in the ruins of the Gaunt house..
I was under the impression that Voldemort made that Horcrux when he killed hin uncle and hid the ring at the same time, which was when he was still at school.
I also wondered if DD was wearing the ring simply to bring it to Harry's (and our) attention.
I was under the impression that Voldemort made that Horcrux when he killed hin uncle and hid the ring at the same time, which was when he was still at school.
I also wondered if DD was wearing the ring simply to bring it to Harry's (and our) attention.
I was under the same impression - he sealed the Horcrux at the same time - then removed the ring ...
You know it has been nearly 24 hours since I posted in here - and it is bothering me now ... why did Dumbledore wear the ring?
I mean - he was going to make Harry aware of it at some point - there was no needs for a hint etc - not like JKR wasnt going to provide the answer ...
If she was going to make it a clue - I could see sticking it on Dumbledore's hand - to later tease us that it was there all along and we missed it... but she disclosed the truth of it ...
It is bothering me :o
He can't have. Tom Riddle was wearing the ring in Slughorn's memory when he learned about the Horcruxes. That means that he had to have already killed his uncle and gotten the ring from him, correct? But obviously he didn't know enough about Horcruxes at that point to have already hidden it in there..
.. which means he would have made a specific trip back to Gaunt's house just to hide it there.. hum dum.. that's kind of interesting..
Fortescue
21-07-2005, 18:24
I was under the same impression - he sealed the Horcrux at the same time - then removed the ring ...
You know it has been nearly 24 hours since I posted in here - and it is bothering me now ... why did Dumbledore wear the ring?
I mean - he was going to make Harry aware of it at some point - there was no needs for a hint etc - not like JKR wasnt going to provide the answer ...
If she was going to make it a clue - I could see sticking it on Dumbledore's hand - to later tease us that it was there all along and we missed it... but she disclosed the truth of it ...
It is bothering me :o
Dumbledore wore the ring to impress Slughorn - JKR made a point of showing his attention go to the ring. He might have had it on for Harry's sake as well because of the rings significance in Harry's lessons, but when he wore it to visit Slughorn, that was definitely for Slughorn. After that scene, the next time Harry went into Dumbledore's office, the ring was laying on one of the spindly-legged table - then the next time Harry went into the office the ring was gone.
He can't have. Tom Riddle was wearing the ring in Slughorn's memory when he learned about the Horcruxes. That means that he had to have already killed his uncle and gotten the ring from him, correct? But obviously he didn't know enough about Horcruxes at that point to have already hidden it in there..
.. which means he would have made a specific trip back to Gaunt's house just to hide it there.. hum dum.. that's kind of interesting..
As Dumbledore pointed out, Tom liked to keep trophies - when Dumbledore took Harry into his memory in the Pensieve of Dumbledore's visit to the orphanage to give Riddle his Hogwarts letter, he had a shoe box of things he had stolen from the other kids in the orphanage. Dumbledore said the ring, locket and Hufflepuff's cup were the same things - just trophies. Tom didn't know at the time what use he'd put the trophies to until he found out the details from Slughorn of how to make a Horcrux.
I can see what you are saying - I understand and it makes sense- but I just think there was more to it ...
Someone speculated that maybe Dumbledore was a 'collector' as well - it would be consistant as he was so readily able to identify with Riddle.
I wonder if Dumbledore was wearing it because of pride - that he had one of the best Slytherin artifacts - he was the one that got it and he was the one that cracked it?
I just wonder if he couldnt help but feel a little smug about it all - maybe it would filter back to Voldemort that the Champion of mudbloods and muggles was wearing what was the most important Slytherin heirloom?
Fortescue
22-07-2005, 04:58
To go chronologically, when Tom went to Little Hangleton the first time, he didn't kill his uncle. He jinxed him, planted a false memory, took the ring and Morfin's wand and proceeded to the Riddle House and killed his father and grandparents. He then went back to the shack and planted Morfin's wand so when they checked the last spells it cast, Morfin was guilty without a doubt.
Morfin went to Azkaban because he admitted, due to the planted memory and his wand, that it was he who had killed the Riddles.
Then we saw through Slughorns' memory that Tom had the ring on at Hogwarts - at the same time he was asking about Horcruxes. Obviously, at that time the ring was just a trophy - something that Tom thought he was entitled to being the heir of Slytherin, but at that time he wasn't the last heir of Slytherin because Morfin was still in Azkaban.
Then, ten years after Voldemort left Hogwarts, he returned to ask Dumbledore for a teaching job. Dumbledore, of course, denied him the job, but the significant thing of this memory was no mention was made by Harry's view into the Pensieve that Voldemort was wearing the ring. Voldemort's appearance was noted - he no longer looked like Tom Riddle, yet didn't quite look like the Voldemort that Harry now knew. He was obviously already making Horcruxes, thus the transformation of his looks - the splitting of the soul transforming him into the evil thing that sat across from Dumbledore in the memory.
Finally, Dumbledore tells Harry of where and how he found the ring in the Gaunt's old shack, thus suffering the damage to his hand.
As I mentioned before, Dumbledore wore the ring only on the night he went to get Harry and visit Slughorn, shortly after that it disappeared. I think if Dumbledore could be considered a collector, it would be of Voldemort's soul bits - he doesn't seem like the type of person who collects things in the way Voldemort did - not like proof of his conquests or anything. As he said, the damage to his hand inflicted by the curse on the ring was small payment for a seventh of Voldemort's soul.
....and the constant reminders from JKR about the things in his office - strange instruments etc ... I think he is a collector of things .. and I think that is why he felt so in tune with Riddle ... and it seemed to me he did relate to the boy Riddle a great deal ...
IMHO and all ;)
Snuffles
23-07-2005, 17:18
Wow... You people are so beyond me.. lol :D
First... the cracking..
I think it is obvious, and that msot of us agree that the crack was caused by Dumbledore when he "destroyed" the ring and bit of soul inside.
I don't think this part of the crack is as much important as how and when the ring was destroyed, as well as how the ring was initially found by Dumbledore at Gaunt's House.
The ring... I agree with people who say that the bit of soul insde must hav been destroyed earlier on, when Dumbledore met Harry over the summer. Even then, Dumbledore had hurt his hand. It is true that Dumbledore didn't tell Harry that he had destroyed the ring till the later part of the book, but it is also true that Dumbledore didn't tell Harry that he had NOT destroyed the ring till then, either. (does this make sense?)
So.. that kind of clears up the "when" part for me. But "How" did he destroy the Horcrux? When the diary was open, Harry had to have a fight with a live, legal teenage Voldemort, Tom Riddle, in order to destroy it. Did Dumbledore had to fight yet another part of Voldemort when he cracked the ring? And somehow along the way, Dumbledore got his hand injured, and when Dumbledore rushed to Hogwarts, Snape was there to make him a potion that would somehow soothe, if not heal, his hand?
I don't quite agree with Fortescue that Dumbledore was only wearing the ring to impress Slughorn. I think it is more like a keepsake; a token of what he had done. My only question to this is... what became of it? The diary, when the soul of Tom Riddle inside was destoryed, didn't simply vanish. I believe it was given to Lucius Malfoy. So what became of the cracked ring? Where did it go?
Ypu know perhaps we should ask more questions about the damage to Dumbledore's hand, the ring and of course Snape being able to 'sooth' it ...
Question along the lines of exactly what happened when he released the Horcrux - because Harry will have to endure similar injuries maybe - and who will help him?
And yet again - why Snape?
Whatever injured Dumbledore - how did Snape know how to help him - is it just a case of plain old potions or was a little knowledge invested in the cry for assitance?
My only question to this is... what became of it? The diary, when the soul of Tom Riddle inside was destoryed, didn't simply vanish. I believe it was given to Lucius Malfoy. So what became of the cracked ring? Where did it go?
See, this was the initial reasoning behind why I thought Dumbledore may have destroyed the ring entirely. Naturally, it wasn't needed (as some part of the diary still remains obviously) but we saw it once on Dumbledore's table, and the next time it was gone and we didn't see it again..
As far as Dumbledore's injuries are concerned, I think that he may have been injured by one of the curses that was protecting the ring and not exactly the Horcrux itself - one of the many spells guarding it. Snape, I think, was at Hogwarts when Dumbledore returned back and was probably just able to stop the curse from continuing to spread - perhaps Dumbledore was in so much pain that he couldn't stop it himself? .. and Snape just happened to be the one who was there at the right moment? .. that was my impression anyway..
... OK I am gonna say this here ...
On the inside of the UK edition - on the loose cover part inside - you see 2 hands and a ring of fire ...
Most logical assumption is that this is the moment Snape makes his unbreakable vow ... and of course that works at many levels ...
But I wonder - just maybe - if Dumbledore made a similar vow to someone - and the effect of him trying to destroy the Horcrux was almost like breaking the vow - but not fully doing it - maybe indirect - and as such that is why he had such a strange injury that was never really explained ...
If it was simply and open and closed 'it was a protection ... it was releasing the Horcrux...' - then why didnt JKR just come right out, say it and close it ...
Might be over-analysing this ... but still something doesn't sit right ...
Fortescue
25-07-2005, 11:32
When I got to the part of the book when Snape made the Unbreakable Vow, my mind went immediately to the picture on the UK HBP of the clasped hands. I can't see Dumbledore making such a vow to someone - not sure what the need for that would be or who he'd make such a vow with that might somehow involve Voldemort's Horcruxes. :rolleyes:
Snuffles
25-07-2005, 16:49
But I wonder - just maybe - if Dumbledore made a similar vow to someone -
Wouldn't that require a third person, then? Who would that third person be?
Wouldn't that require a third person, then? Who would that third person be?
Well, yes, technically.. someone to be the Binder and oversee the Vow.. but that could be anyone at all - definitely depending on who Dumbledore made the Vow with..
So Bla, you're wondering if Dumbledore's injury was a result of breaking something like an Unbreakable Vow and somehow he escaped the death sentence but his hand was seriously hurt instead? I think that's possible, but that would sure show his power and ability if he was able to cheat death that way - I don't know if i can see Dumbledore somehow getting away with that, if you know what i mean..
Or were you saying that in destroying the Horcrux he broke some type of Vow? If so, that would sure be a conspiracy theory.. because who would he have made a vow with that concerned not destroying Horcruxes?! :eek:
Sirius Potter Fan
25-07-2005, 18:12
I believe that what happened with Dumbledore's hand and the ring, was meant to remain a mystery, there were no clues at all, obvious or subtle, as to exactly what happened, only that it was Snape that stopped the damage before it got worse. That doesn't sound like a broken vow to me. . . It seemed to me that if someone took that vow, then broke it, it would be instant like AK. What happened to Dumbledore's hand took a bit of time, he had time to get to Snape, and then for Snape to know how to stop it as well. I don't think an unbreakable vow would give you that much time.
Well, yes, technically.. someone to be the Binder and oversee the Vow.. but that could be anyone at all - definitely depending on who Dumbledore made the Vow with..
So Bla, you're wondering if Dumbledore's injury was a result of breaking something like an Unbreakable Vow and somehow he escaped the death sentence but his hand was seriously hurt instead? I think that's possible, but that would sure show his power and ability if he was able to cheat death that way - I don't know if i can see Dumbledore somehow getting away with that, if you know what i mean..
Or were you saying that in destroying the Horcrux he broke some type of Vow? If so, that would sure be a conspiracy theory.. because who would he have made a vow with that concerned not destroying Horcruxes?! :eek:
What I am saying is that because he didnt directly break the vow he made - he did it indirectly - maybe without knowing - it didnt kill him but more burnt the place that the circle of flames encased as a reminder to him of the vow ...
It just seems so - wierd ... fire that binds the Unbreakable vow - and Dumbledore's hand that he or no-one else will explain exactly how it got burnt ..
If it was becasue of a Horcrux - then there would have been no reason to conceal exactly what happened - but it was indeed concealed non the less ...
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