Dumbledore's Pensieve

[Weasleyfanforever]

Just as I was sitting down to eat my chicken wrap for lunch, something occurred to me, and I had to get it out there.

We know that Dumbledore has, or I should say had, the Pensieve, and that there could be some very revealing, as well as useful memories contained within. Do you think that Harry will get a hold of the Pensieve? If he does, it could reveal how to destroy the Horcruxes, or even where Dumbledore expected the other's lay.

Even worse, what if Voldemort got a hold of the Pensieve? He could do a lot of damage having some of Dumbledore's most important memories at his hands. The prophecy would be revealed to him, he would know everything that Dumbledore knew about Harry, etc...

So, what do you guys think?

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I think/hope it very likely that one of the precautions Dumbledore would have taken before leaving on a dangerous mission would to be to leave instructions in some way for someone to carry on his work. He took steps to leave extra protection for Hogwarts when he left, so it would make sense that he would leave other instructions as well, and the pensive would be a very good way to leave his collections of clues and ideas.

As far as Voldemort getting ahold of them. . .That could be a problem, however I think it likely that once Harry has them, the "copies" would be destroyed. I have come to believe that memories in pensives are gathered in two ways. Orriginals, and copies. As Snape did in his occlumency lessons with Harry, he could remove certain memories completely into the pensive, leaving no trace in his mind of what they were, in other words he couldn't even remember those things when he removed them. the other way is to "copy" a memory into a pensive (or bottle)
leaving it available for others to see and keep, but you would still retain the memories in your head as well.

[Angelis]

I was thinking about this , and will one of the chapters of the next book be dumbledores will, i'm sure DD knew more about voldy so will he leave harry all the information in his will & the pensieve with all the memorys and i think fawkes will come to harrys aid in the next book too.

[Nimue]

Wow, I never thought of Voldy getting Dumbledore's memories, but thanks for that frightening. :eek:

Seriously though,
I know Dumbledore and he's very cautious. I'm sure that all of his posessions are quite safe and secure. And his final will with surely be vital to the story in B7. Harry will likely need all of Dumbledore's memories to solve vital clues to the puzzle. And Snape as well--why Dumbledore trusted him with his life. Or even his death?

[Fortescue]

I think Dumbledore left a bunch of those little vials full of instruction for Harry who will use the Pensieve to finish his training through Dumbledore's memories. Dumbledore did all that investigation regarding Voldemort's past to find out where he might have left the Horcruxes, and I'm sure he would have made arrangement to preserve that information for Harry.

[psychgirl83]

LOL, I just posted something like this on Boing's Horcrux thread. What if Dumbledore left most of his memories in bottles for Harry to use in the Pensieve, so that he could find out where the others are and how to destroy them? Just a thought.

[Alz]

I think given all the plot we have seen attached to the past - looking at it etc - and given the Horcruxes were placed in the past - I think there is a good chance we could see Harry using it ...
If Voldemort got one - the only fear would come if he could get the accompanying memories ..

In Harry's case - if Dumbledore has got things locked up in his head - I would have thought more likely Harry would just talk to the portrait of Dumbledore to get the inside info ... not like Dumbledore would have that much to hide now ...

[Tonks]

Well, it wouldn't be good for Voldemort to get the Pensieve, especially because then he would know just how much Dumbledore knows about the Horcruxes as well as learn the entire Prophecy. That obviously wouldn't be good - :eek: I do think it is pretty safe in Hogwarts at the moment though..

I do think that Harry will see the Pensieve again, and will probably get advice and direction from Dumbledore's portrait in the office. He doesn't really know how to use it, he's just seem Dumbledore do so - and he still really needs a mentor, even though he doesn't have anyone left - :(

[Sirius Potter Fan]

and he still really needs a mentor, even though he doesn't have anyone left -
I think that will be where either Lupin or this "other" Order member will come in. I hadn't actually thought of the fact that Harry might not have the info he needs to use the pensive. we see what DD does, but I bet Harry just couldn't sit down and do it could he. I think DD must almost have to have saved most of his memories somewhere for Harry, I think he knew that any of his quests for the Horcruxes could have been fatal, and he would take a chance that important knowledge would die with him. I don't think the portrait will be that much help, but I could be wrong. I thought that in OotP when Harry was moruning Sirius, we were told that the portraits were just representations of their personalities, or their essence, but didn't have all the knowledge or memories of the person?

I think if Voldemort got ahold of a pensive with DD's memories, he would then know 1, of the Horcruxes that had been destroyed, and 2, that they were still looking for others. Voldemort would imediately retrieve the others, and probably comit a few more murders just to create 2 new ones to replace the others.

[Fortescue]

I think the Pensieve will actually go to Harry. I think it's a relatively new acquisition for Dumbledore. In the scene from HBP where Voldemort goes back to visit Dumbledore to apply for a teaching position, JKR went to the trouble to show us the cabinet where current day Dumbledore kept the Pensieve had liquor bottles in it, and not the Pensieve.

Not to get into wild spec :rolleyes: but I mentioned before that I think the Pensieve actually belongs to Harry, left in Dumbledore's possession by James in the same way he left the Invisibility Cloak for Harry. The Pensieve was part of James's inheritance, and now that Dumbledore is gone, the Pensieve will go to its rightful owner: Harry.

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I think the Pensieve will actually go to Harry. I think it's a relatively new acquisition for Dumbledore. In the scene from HBP where Voldemort goes back to visit Dumbledore to apply for a teaching position, JKR went to the trouble to show us the cabinet where current day Dumbledore kept the Pensieve had liquor bottles in it, and not the Pensieve.

Not to get into wild spec :rolleyes: but I mentioned before that I think the Pensieve actually belongs to Harry, left in Dumbledore's possession by James in the same way he left the Invisibility Cloak for Harry. The Pensieve was part of James's inheritance, and now that Dumbledore is gone, the Pensieve will go to its rightful owner: Harry.

I kind of like the idea of it being Harry's. But I wonder then why Dumbledore would not have mentioned it. and. . . we saw Snape use it too in OotP. Would Snape have used something of James'?. . . well, I guess he would, he made use of the invisibility cloak in PoA didn't he.

My only problem with the scene where Riddle comes to Dumbledore to apply to teach, is that it had to be quite shortly after Dippet left, since Dippet was in charge while Riddle was a student. So if indeed Dumbledore had just moved in, then possibly, he may not have "settled" in with all his gadgets and gizmos. . . I believe that it stated that alot of those weren't present as well didn't it? Problem now is, unless Dumbledore left instrustions to McGonagal to give it to Harry, how will he get it to use it, since he cant' tell McGonagal what he's up to?

[Alz]

Given the nature of the Pensive - I figured it would only be wise, official kinds of people that had them - you know like MoM high level employee's etc ...
What I mean to say - is the nature of the device is to analyse old events from a persons POV - as such it would be perfect for roles that require that kind of insight.
I think it is almost like a Time Turner - I think they are few and far between and the ones that exisit are controlled ... and reserved for people that are using them in some kind of investigation related job ...

[Fortescue]

Given the nature of the Pensive - I figured it would only be wise, official kinds of people that had them - you know like MoM high level employee's etc ...
What I mean to say - is the nature of the device is to analyse old events from a persons POV - as such it would be perfect for roles that require that kind of insight.
I think it is almost like a Time Turner - I think they are few and far between and the ones that exisit are controlled ... and reserved for people that are using them in some kind of investigation related job ...

I guess my argument here is that an Invisibility Cloak is also a rare item as was pointed out to us by Ron in book 1 when Harry first opened the package from Dumbledore. We don't know any background on Harry's family - if Dumbledore can give an eleven year old an Invisibility Cloak to use at will, then it's very possible that the Pensieve could be part of Harry's families possessions and now would go to Harry who is almost an adult and would make good use of it considering what he's facing. Dumbledore didn't mention it as he was using it to sort out all the memories he was collecting regarding Tom Riddle. We saw Dumbledore make use of it many times - the Pensieve is not something that a child would find of great use, unless of course, they were looking at other people's memories as Dumbledore was at the time.

[Alz]

That is total cross purposes here!
I mean - pensive to invisibility cloak is like chalk and cheese ...
Dumbledore gave Harry the cloak because it would help him - and we saw in HBP the exact reason - as more of a way of protection by concealment ...
The Pensive is more of - well how to put it ... more of a device where a wise or learned person can reflect back on events - it just doesnt seem like something a child would find useful ..
I think we saw leading up to HBP the gradual use and introduction of the device - we now see in HBP the use of it to the extreme ... I think Dumbledore said that he had given all he could find on Voldemort - because once he became Voldemort the people he contacted or came into contact with were usually dead or in his circle ...

[Fortescue]

I mean - pensive to invisibility cloak is like chalk and cheese ... LOL, never heard that term for comparrison before :p

Dumbledore gave Harry the cloak because it would help him - and we saw in HBP the exact reason - as more of a way of protection by concealment ...
The Pensive is more of - well how to put it ... more of a device where a wise or learned person can reflect back on events - it just doesnt seem like something a child would find useful ..
I think we saw leading up to HBP the gradual use and introduction of the device - we now see in HBP the use of it to the extreme ... I think Dumbledore said that he had given all he could find on Voldemort - because once he became Voldemort the people he contacted or came into contact with were usually dead or in his circle ...

Something comes to mind that Dumbledore once said to Harry about the Pensieve, about how it was sometimes nice to filter off the excess memories when your mind was too full of thoughts --- doesn't sound too wise and reflective there. Harry also noted at one time that he wished he had a Pensieve because he had so much on his mind that he couldn't think properly. So yes, the Pensieve might be used as a device for looking back and comparing memories as Dumbledore told Harry in GoF, and it could also be used just to store spare memories, or things you didn't want to think about. I see the Pensieve coming in handy when Harry faces Voldemort - Harry surely didn't learn Occlumency, and he might have to strain a few memories off that he definitely wouldn't want Voldemort to see, like the prophecy for example.

[Tonks]

Also, JKR has said that the Pensieve can be used to examine memories and pick up new things that were not noticed before.. so they can be used for reflection and to notice extra details as well:
TLC/Mugglenet Interview, July 16th 2005

MA: One of our Leaky “Ask Jo” poll winners is theotherhermit, she's 50 and lives in a small town in the eastern US. I think this was addressed in the sixth book, but, “Do the memories stored in a Pensieve reflect reality or the views of the person they belong to?”

JKR: It’s reality. It’s important that I have got that across, because Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't want to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve.

ES: I was dead wrong about that.

JKR: Really?

ES: I thought for sure that it was your interpretation of it. It didn’t make sense to me to be able to examine your own thoughts from a third-person perspective. It almost feels like you'd be cheating because you'd always be able to look at things from someone else's point of view.

MA: So there are things in there that you haven't noticed personally, but you can go and see yourself?

JKR: Yes, and that's the magic of the Pensieve, that's what brings it alive.

ES: I want one of those!

JKR: Yeah. Otherwise it really would just be like a diary, wouldn’t it? Confined to what you remember. But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you, so you could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't notice the time. It’s somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all of our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know you remember are all in there somewhere.
Harry might definitely find something like this useful, to recall what certain people said or how they were acting while they did certain things..

Also, she said that the Pensieve "recreates" a moment for you, but doesn't say that it really takes the memory out of your head. I don't quite understand how this helps with clearing the brain though (maybe those put into the Pensieve somehow go a little bit deeper into your brain so they aren't at the front and you aren't still thinking about them so much). As such, I don't think it would really help him get rid of that Pensieve memory to hide it from Voldemort - especially cuz Voldemort probably has some idea how a Pensieve works anyway or could figure it out and just get it anyway..

[Fortescue]

Also, she said that the Pensieve "recreates" a moment for you, but doesn't say that it really takes the memory out of your head.

I guess I'd have to ask why then did Snape go to the trouble to take his memories of James and Sirius out of his head so Harry couldn't see them if they were still there all the time? I'd think the Pensieve would lose a bit of its usefulness if it didn't extract the memory completely. Maybe it does what ever the person wants - in Snape's case it removed the memory completely so Harry couldn't see it, but in Slughorn's case, it only took a copy of the memory as Slughorn wouldn't have wanted to lose that memory completely.

[Tonks]

I guess I'd have to ask why then did Snape go to the trouble to take his memories of James and Sirius out of his head so Harry couldn't see them if they were still there all the time? I'd think the Pensieve would lose a bit of its usefulness if it didn't extract the memory completely. Maybe it does what ever the person wants - in Snape's case it removed the memory completely so Harry couldn't see it, but in Slughorn's case, it only took a copy of the memory as Slughorn wouldn't have wanted to lose that memory completely.
Where did it say that Snape extracted those memories so that Harry couldn't see them? During an Occlumency lesson?

See, I was under the impression that during the Occlumency lessons those thoughts may have been swimming around in Snape's head and he didn't want them to be the first thoughts that popped into his head if Harry did happen to be slightly successful, so he put them into the Pensieve..

.. that would fit with my theory of the memories staying in your brain, but not exactly being the first thing that came to mind.. because that really wouldn't help too much for that whole "having too many thoughts at once" thing..
It’s somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all of our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know you remember are all in there somewhere.
I just take that to mean that the Pensieve helps the user to access the memories in the back of the brain by recreating them, but not fully taking them out of your head.. then you would have no knowledge of a certain event, and that would be really scary (and almost like being possessed as Ginny described it)..

[Alz]

I suppose in support of Tonky here - if you removed the portion completely - wouldn't you then forgot exactly what you removed - thus the importance of it etc etc etc ..
It was always an argument we shared on MP - I don't think it removes it completely - otherwise you would have this thing swimming around - yet have no comprehension as to what and why - and even when you studied it - you would forget what you were looking for ... does that make sense?

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I've said somewhere on this site before, that I believe whent he memory is extracted from the mind there is some kind of incantation (non verbal of course:) ) You have the option of completely removing a memory as Snape did, but you could obviously keep the memory that you have removed a memory that needs to be put back, or you can copy a memory to share with others, or to look at in more detail yourself. I think you can do both as suits your needs at the time.

[Alz]

Off topic but I will bite ...
I don't believe that is the case ...
Slughorn really didn't want to give up his memory - he even tried to throw a smoke screen over it all ...
I think he would love to have that memory gone from his mind, especially as he really regretted it etc.
He gave the memory up to Harry in the end - I think if you can choose to either remove or copy it - he would have asked for it to be removed ... but I think he still feels just as guilty ...
It makes sense logically that the memory cannot be fully removed - it has to leave a trace or shadow to what it was ... otherwise everyone would be using it to remove bad experiences from their life ..
It's our mistakes that shape us ;)

[Sirius Potter Fan]

It makes sense logically that the memory cannot be fully removed - it has to leave a trace or shadow to what it was ... otherwise everyone would be using it to remove bad experiences from their life ..
It's our mistakes that shape us ;)

Good point Blaise, I can see that, it certainly makes a good deal of sense, what bothers me, is two things, first, Snape removing memories he didn't want accessed. . .maybe doing that could push them further into your subconcious, but then why could Snape so easily access memories humiliations from Dudley that Harry would have tried to forget? And with Sluggy, the copy thing is the only theory here, he had to copy his memory then "change" it before he gave it to Dumbledore, where as the one he gave Harry was intact. Just a guess here, but. . . what if you could truly remove a complete memory, no traces, but only for a certain amount of time?

[Alz]

With Snape as an example here ...
I think he was removing the event - not the knowledge of the event ... once again if that makes sense ..
He is able to extract the deep memories of it - but still has the knowledge of what he took out and it's importance - kinda make sense that you cant fully remove all the bad things in your life - you can remove the event but you cant remove the knowledge of the event ... if someone wanted to see - they could see maybe a Snape that was ashamed and humliliated - but not what made him feel like that ... that would be what was washing around in the pensive ...

[Fortescue]

But if we look at what Dumbledore said about his head being so full of memories and thoughts that it was a relief to siphon some off and place them in the Pensieve, how could it be a relief if you could still remember them and think about the things you were trying not to think about?

[Boing]

But Forte, he can't take away every memory that is then connected to the one he removed . . . so he would still have others that are connected in his brain. So, sure, it's a relief for him to get some of them out that are just crowding in there and making it hard for him to concentrate, but he will still have memories of things that are associated with those events . . . otherwise, he might simply forget the memory and it will be lost in the pensieve forever!!

So, take for example the memory Dumbledore must have of Snape "giving him his story," whatever that means! :p Just because that one memory is removed, it doesn't mean there is no trace of the event in Dumbledore's mind. There are still plenty of memories in there that have pieces of that memory or are connected in some way - they perhaps resulted from it, etc.

[Alz]

But Forte, he can't take away every memory that is then connected to the one he removed . . . so he would still have others that are connected in his brain. So, sure, it's a relief for him to get some of them out that are just crowding in there and making it hard for him to concentrate, but he will still have memories of things that are associated with those events . . . otherwise, he might simply forget the memory and it will be lost in the pensieve forever!!

So, take for example the memory Dumbledore must have of Snape "giving him his story," whatever that means! :p Just because that one memory is removed, it doesn't mean there is no trace of the event in Dumbledore's mind. There are still plenty of memories in there that have pieces of that memory or are connected in some way - they perhaps resulted from it, etc.
That is a good post because it is true ... the mind in a complex device.
You would have to remove hundreds if not thousands of strands in the mind in order to remove trace of a memory.
There is going to be times when the person reflects on the memory, even for just a split second - I think by removing that memory altogether all it would do is make these dormant thoughts come rushing to the front - it's like the mind is an index of experience, events, circumstance etc - you remove a piece of it the index is incomplete and the memory would scan to see what it was - at the very least you would be left thinking you are missing something - human curiosity is very insatiable - I think it wouldn't take long to find a trace of the removed thoughts.

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I think that is at least mostly true, but with removing certain memories, not to be forgotten, but to be "out of the way" in the even that they are distracting you, or that you may be in a situation where someone else may gain access to them, as we saw with Snape, he removed ones he didn't want Harry to have access to, and indeed, Harry did momentarily get into Snapes head, an interesting thought there. . . something even Voldemort or Dumbledore hadn't done. . . anyway, back on track. If you removed a memory on purpose, I think all you would need is the memory of doing it to remind you to put it back if the remnants linked in other memories disturbed you.

[Alz]

.. not to get too much deeper here but the memory of the part you removed could be used as a clue to someone who could see into your mind - it is like an indicator - memory removed.
I think someone that is skilled could still look elsewhere into the persons mind to find further evidence of the event that was pulled.
I dont think you can fully remove a piece of memory - you can pull an event but not the whole memory from your mind.

[Boing]

I'd like to bring this thread back to see if there are further thoughts.

Mostly the debate has been around who will get the pensieve and eventually be able to go through Dumbledore's thoughts (if he left them in there). I'd like to ask another question - when a person dies, do their memory strands disappear? So, if Dumbledore is truly dead, will all his strands evaporate because there is no "base" for them to have come from anymore? I don't know how a memory would survive without its owner . . . any thoughts on that one?

Also, to answer a question asked a long time ago, about why Snape didn't take out the memories of him and James when they were at Hogwarts, I really don't think he thought that Harry would be able to get through is defenses - he's supposed to be a super-duper Occlumens, so how would a person who has never done this before be able to get through to his memories? Which brings up another question - did Harry receive a bit of Voldemort's power of Legilimens when he was attacked as a baby? This could answer for him being able to get through Snape's defenses. Also, what were the memories that Snape took out so Harry wouldn't see? Hmmm. Perhaps these last things are best suited to another thread - Alz, if you think so, just take them out of here - thanks! :D

[SnarkologyMajor]

Well Dumbledore and Harry looked at Morphin's memory that was extracted from him before he died-so it would appear that extracted memories do not disappear when a witch/wizard dies. To me this is similar to the marauder's map and the portraits-a person may die but you can't take away the memories, so it's kind of a metaphor for "the dead never truly leave us". They live on in our memories.
Since I believe H is an H-then yes, he probably does have all the same powers as Voldemort including legilimens(whether or not he's aware of this yet). Snape very well could have thought he removed the memory that Harry saw-but can you really isolate and remove a singular memory? Snape explained how complex this is and also we know that Voldemort breaks through any barriers on the mind-look at Bertha. So I really do think that Snape didn't want Harry to see what he did, but Harry due to his connection with Voldemort was able to break through that memory anyway. Hope that wasn't too garbled:D

[Alz]

Agreed with SM above there - also wasn't the MoM official that first visited the Gaunts dead as well??? :confused:
I think once the memories are removed - the magic that allows this also sustains them and keeps them alive and still viable - I am hoping that Dumbledore corked a few including why he trusted Snape so ... ;)

What we have to be careful is underestimating Snape - he was able to lie convincingly to either or both Voldemort and Dumbledore.
It would suggest that Harry's powers that he share with the Dark Lord (yep H is a H) does allow him some of the main strengths - it was said all throughout OoTP how Voldemort could see into Harry and more stronger and thus more important - how Harry could see into Voldemort's mind.
Harry only grasped at Snape's mind - his main memory intrusions took place in the pensive ... as such didn't require that much power. I think Snape was so intent on reading Harry that he let his own guard down and thus opened the door to Harry ....

[SnarkologyMajor]

Definately second not underestimating Snape-if Dumbledore and Voldemort are the best legilimens. then Snape must be the best occlumens. I wonder if Voldemort might not be so great at occlumency? I mean Harry was able to get into Voldemort's head as relatively easy as Voldemort was able to get into Harry's. Is this Snape's big advantage-it would seem so:D

[Boing]

Good point about the Occlumency. I think that Harry was able to see into Voldemort's mind simply by accident and by virtue of their mysterious connection that happened when Harry was attacked.

But, I agree that Snape must be the best at Occlumency because he needed to fool at least one great wizard (Dumbledore/Voldemort) in order to survive for so long.

Alz, I think you made a great point that Snape probably just let his guard down and opened the door for Harry because he was focused on reading Harry's thoughts.

Oh, and thanks for the clarification over the pensieve stuff! :D