View Full Version : Thrice Defied ... ***Spoilers***
..anyone think that one or more of the thrice defied moments could involve the Potter & Longbottoms interfering with Voldemort's Horcruxes?
The DE's are sent after the Longbottoms on the understanding they know the whereabouts' of a certain Voldemort .... what if it isn't Voldemort they know the whereabouts of but in fact one or more of his Horcruxes?
Would explain why the DE's were sent around to the Longbottoms - tortured - but not killed - because if they died no-one could work out where Voldemort's Horcruxes were and thus be unable to resurrect him!
Sirius Potter Fan
19-07-2005, 13:38
Now this is an interesting theory. and it makes sense that the longbottoms would still have some kind of role in the story still, or why would JKR have not only left them in, but made shure we knew that they were alive in OotP? I mean, in a way, "knowing" where a horcrux is would be nearly equivilent to knowing where Voldemort was. . . they could have been seen searching clues for the hiding places and the DE's thought they were searching for Voldemort himself. But. . . how do we get the info from them? a miraculous cure? Vulcan mind meld? a skilled ligilimens?
Fortescue
19-07-2005, 16:44
My man Dumbledore's theory was that Voldemort didn't share the information of his Horcruxes with his Death Eaters, just as he doesn't share any information with them unless it's on a 'need to know' basis. I think I mentioned this someplace else, but the way he keeps many of his people in the dark, only telling certain ones certain things, and not sharing everything with anyone, it leaves a big gray area for someone to come along and manipulate his organization.
The only chink in this theory is if the initials on the letter in the locket R.A.B - is truly Regulus Black, how did he find out about the Horcrux in the cave?
I guess the fact that the Longbottom's can't say why the Death Eaters came to call that night will leave us guessing until JKR tells us outright or someone asks her after the 7th book is out.
Vulcan mind meld all the way.
But seriously, I have always thought that Neville's mom would begin to play a larger role(what is with those gum wrappers?). I'm sure she has info that is vital to fighting Voldemort. How to help them will be a challenge. But I think Neville is made of sterner stuff than he appears--he could really help Harry I think.
Sirius Potter Fan
19-07-2005, 17:46
The only chink in this theory is if the initials on the letter in the locket R.A.B - is truly Regulus Black, how did he find out about the Horcrux in the cave?.
Hey Fort, I started a thread on R.A.B. but I think it got buried, I had some ideas in there
I think it likely that Nevil's parents will come round somehow. I mean, his mother seems to somehow "know" who he is, after all she gave the gum wrapper to him, not his grandmother. She may be trying to find a way to communicate, and maybe when she does?
mimbulus mimbletonia
19-07-2005, 20:01
But not even DD knew much about the Horcruxes until he had the correct memory from Sluggy - how would the other members of the Order have known? I can understand Regulus somehow finding out, it would only take one DE to spill the beans,,
Voldemort made his first Horcrux alone, but it's entirely possible that one (most faithful servant) was with him when he made subsequent ones, especially as I can see him being increasingly arrogant and even careless as he neared the completion of the 6 horcruxes.
Sirius Potter Fan
19-07-2005, 21:02
Actualy I think that Dumbledore knew about Horcruxes, he just didn't know how many Voldemort may have made. He asked for that memory specificly from Harry, so if he knew the name, I'm shure he would have known what they were and how they were used. Slugy being a potions expert, shouldn't have had any superior knowledge than did Dumbledore, It was just that Riddle knew (as did Harry) that if you butter the bread enough you'll get a sandwitch eventualy, and that's what Riddle was doing.
My man Dumbledore's theory was that Voldemort didn't share the information of his Horcruxes with his Death Eaters, just as he doesn't share any information with them unless it's on a 'need to know' basis. I think I mentioned this someplace else, but the way he keeps many of his people in the dark, only telling certain ones certain things, and not sharing everything with anyone, it leaves a big gray area for someone to come along and manipulate his organization.
The only chink in this theory is if the initials on the letter in the locket R.A.B - is truly Regulus Black, how did he find out about the Horcrux in the cave?
I guess the fact that the Longbottom's can't say why the Death Eaters came to call that night will leave us guessing until JKR tells us outright or someone asks her after the 7th book is out.
Voldemort told his Death Eaters in GoF - that they knew the steps he took long ago to ensure he would always be around and that how far he had gone down the path of immortality ... kinda suggests to me if they knew - he told them ...
Blaise, I really like that theory about the Longbottoms knowing where at least one of the horcruxes is. That would explain why the DEs went after them. JKR said they were sent there that night, so I wonder who sent them, too . . .
But yeah, Voldemort did say that the DEs knew the steps he took long ago.
Fortescue
20-07-2005, 04:11
Well, I don't want to repeat two posts, and the other one is quite long so I'll edit:
In the R.A.B. thread I had an idea - what if:
R = Regulus
A = Alice
B = Barty Jr
Regulus wanted out of the Death Eaters, went to Alice and told her about the Horcrux - Regulus and Barty are the same age and probably friends as they are purebloods and were both in Slytherin at Hogwarts -
Suppose the thrice defied comes from Alice's knowledge of the Horcrux they stole from the cave - Barty was with the Death Eaters who tortured them - Barty wanted to know where the Horcrux was - the other Death Eaters wanted to know Voldemort's location, probably unaware of what Barty did with Regulus and Alice, and according to the note left in the locket, Voldemort's Horcruxes were secret.
It would make sense - Why wouldn't the Death Eaters have killed the Longbottom's? They saved them for a reason - the location of the Horcrux!!!
Still, if that works, then it didn't really do them much good to torture Alice to insanity did it? She's not much use in St. Mungo's and it almost would be better if they were dead - Harry thinks so anyway, and feels more sorry for Neville than he does for himself..
I sort of find it hard to believe that the Potters and the Longbottoms would have known about the Horcruxes.. I guess it's possible, especially if Dumbledore did know about them back then, but I think thats a bit stretching it too because at this point nobody knew for sure that Voldemort couldn't be killed..
I said earlier that Voldemort informed his DE's of the steps he took long ago ...
Perhaps one knew more than others - and summised that they needed to find a Horcrux to ressurect Voldemort ...
Somewhere along the line the Longbottoms found one - aware or not of what it was - then this someone sent the DE's to go get the location or even the object ...
JKR said that the DE's were sent - that is important ...
So - the Longbottoms are having none of it - they are being torchered and one of the DE's push too hard ... effectivly leading to the Longbottom's going mad ...
But thing is - there is still a chance they might come back from their madness - Malfiy Snr is a contributer to St Mungo's and as such in a great position to know when they shows signs of improvement ... this has all been covered before ...
It all makes total sense - but I wonder if the 'thrice defiance' of Voldemort was what lead them - and maybe the Potters to one of his Horcruxes ... that is the question ;)
Fortescue
20-07-2005, 16:09
If the Potter's and the Longbottom's each thrice defied Voldemort 3x2=6 Horcruxes - maybe they were on the trail of all of them but the one Voldemort was using at the time and never managed to get to them because of Voldemort.
If Alice had the knowlege of where the one from the locket was - and the scenerio played out as mentioned, then it's possible that's what happened.
I said earlier that Voldemort informed his DE's of the steps he took long ago ...
His words were:
"I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal - to conquer death. (GoF, pg 653)
He didn't actually say what it was he did to conquer death, which goes along with Dumbledore's assumption that Voldemort didn't share that information with his Death Eaters.
And if you look at the note found in the locket.
Line 3: but I want you to know it was I who discovered your secret.
So, since they title the note: To the Dark Lord - it was obviously from a Death Eater as they are the only ones who call him that - it makes sense that if applied with my previous post regarding Alice's part in R.A.B and 3x2=6. :p
But thing is - there is still a chance they might come back from their madness - Malfiy Snr is a contributer to St Mungo's and as such in a great position to know when they shows signs of improvement ... this has all been covered before ...
I wonder if a dose of Felix Felicis would do wonders for the Longbottom's if only for twelve hours - it would be long enough to find out the truth! ;)
'And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?
Back at ya is the phrase I think we tend to use here :D
I mean come on - guard against mortal death - Horcruxes - you think he needed to draw a map? ;)
Aw, Blaise, you beat me to posting that quote! :D I have always been intrigued by that one.
I think that there were levels of DEs in Voldemort's first prime . . .there were names mentioned that we have never heard of before in HBP from the first time around, so perhaps there was the "inner circle" and then the periphery of "up and coming" DEs . . . :D
So, the inner circle knew the plans, but as R.A.B. wasn't around long enough to get into that private circle, he/she didn't know exactly what the plans were until they found out on their own . . .
Fortescue
22-07-2005, 05:28
Back at ya is the phrase I think we tend to use here :D
I mean come on - guard against mortal death - Horcruxes - you think he needed to draw a map? ;)
If Snape was part of Voldemort's inner circle, and was supposedly spying for both sides, would he then have known about the Horcruxes? Dumbledore didn't say how long he'd been persuing them, but it would seem it was at least since the attack on Harry, if not before that time. Did the Potter's and Longbottom's then know the secret too, through Snape's knowledge and the information he was feeding to Dumbledore and the Order?
Sirius Potter Fan
22-07-2005, 14:52
Seeing that quote, kind of has me confused here. As stated if Snape was in the inner circle, he should have known of them, but maybe at that time Voldemort just didn't trust him enough then. . . Unless Snape has told Dumbledore that the horcruxed were made, but that doesn't mean that he would have known just where they were. I have been getting kind of close to liking the idea of the longbottoms having knowledge. Also, with Harry going back to Godrick's Hollow, it could be that even James and Lilly may have had some knowledge of it, they had also thrice defied him. . .Be nice if Harry could find one there, one at Grimwauld place, one the Long bottoms know of, and one the Potters knew of, would just leave Nagini if we are right about that.
Snape wasnt in the circle that night - confirmed by JKR in HBP ...
As such - when Voldemort made his statement - it appeared that the ones he addressed knew of the steps he took long ago - ex Snape ...
It kinda makes sense in this scenario I posted at the start of this thread - the DE's were sent to Longbottoms and it wasnt after Neville ...
They were also sent because it was believed by the DE's that the Longbottoms knew of Voldemort's whereabouts - or reading between the lines they knew where a piece of Voldemort was ...
Sirius Potter Fan
26-07-2005, 22:46
First I didn't mean in the circle at Voldemorts Rebirth, but in the first reign, that Snape was in Voldemorts "inner circle" of loyal folowers. And I think that the DE's may have known that he took steps, but I doubt that they knew exactly what steps were taken, ie the Horcruxes. That knowledge would make him too vulnerable to a disgruntled DE. . . (Regulus?)
Fortescue
27-07-2005, 03:04
Okay, something that bothers me is the fact that in HBP we learned that Bellatrix could do Occlumency. I can't imagine someone knowing Occlumency and not knowing Legilimency as it seems they go hand in hand. So why would she torture the Longbottom's to insanity if she could have just as easily read their thoughts to find the information she was looking for?
It would seem more practical to put them under the Imperius Curse to control them and then sift through their thoughts and memories at her leisure to find what the Death Eaters wanted if Bellatrix didn't intend to kill them which, of course, she did not.
And to Blaise - not to debate whether SiE ;) - no Snape wasn't in the circle that night. According to his speech to Bellatrix and Narcissa, he didn't turn up until two hours later. We saw in GoF that Dumbledore sent him out to begin his spying when Harry was in the hospital wing after Fudge left. Who's to say what his real reason for being there really was - whether he was working for Voldemort or working for Dumbledore - or both? So we can again assume that Snape ws the one Voldemort referred to as "left me forever - he will be killed". :rolleyes:
I think I said above he wasnt there when Voldemort addressed the circle? :confused:
.. and no, the logical assumption everyone worked to was that Snape was the one to die ... we now know that he was well in with Voldemort - and as such he was the most loyal ... and I think someone said that a long time ago ;)
Let's not argue with established, JKR ratified facts here ..
The DE's were sent to the Longbottoms
The DE's believed that the Longbottoms had information on Voldemort's whereabouts
The DE's were sent after the Longbottom parents - not child
The DE's torchered the Longbottoms to the point of insanity
Mind trix or not (I think not - difference between Occlumency and Legilimency - nothing says you have both skills) ... the facts speak for themselves - the DE's required torture to do their deeds - but never finished them off ...
Somnia_Veritas
28-07-2005, 07:02
The skills of Occlumency and Legilimency may go hand in hand to a degree, but talent in one does NOT mean one has talent in the other.
Snape's a great Occlumens, but I don't get the impression that he is a particularly good Legilimens. Why?
1) Snape needed a wand and a verbal spell, at least initially, to perform legilimency on Harry, but definitely requires eye contact, whereas Dumbledore, a very good Legilimens, does not necessarily need even eye contact.
2) Harry is NOT a good Occlumens, which means that probably anyone with any skill at Legilimency, including Snape, penetrates his defences "with absurd ease".
3) evidently, with only a few months of practice, Draco can prevent Snape from using Legilimency... either Draco is some kind of prodigy at Occlumency (which is possible, I suppose, given that he doesn't seem to be particularly good at anything else), or that Snape is not a very good Legilimens at all, at least without a wand.
So perhaps Bellatrix, like Snape, is a much better Occlumens than Legilimens, and we know she enjoys torture anyway, so it makes sense that she would rather use torture on someone unwilling to volunteer information rather than legilimency (even if she had the skill for it.) It'd be more fun for her that way.
I LOVE the idea that the Longbottoms were tortured for info on the location of the R.A.B. -stolen Horcrux, though! Good one! Maybe Regulus was able to get the locket to the Longbottoms successfully. And if Bellatrix believes she was Voldemort's "most trusted", then perhaps he WOULD have told her (after killing Regulus) what, exactly, was stolen from him, and ordered her not to share the explicit information of what he was seeking. I'm sure she must have gotten it from them, if they did know (I imagine they must have). Maybe she didn't have time to stash it anywhere safer than that cabinet in the Black family home before the Aurors got her.
Or else Regulus just put the locket in the cabinet, "hidden in plain sight", as it were.
The skills of Occlumency and Legilimency weren't introduced until recently, in GOF, on page 517, Snape is threatning Harry with Veritaserum to find out whether or not he broke into the potions room and took dillyweed. It was really Mr Crouch that had broken into Snape's office, and harry knows this, but Snape doesn't do any mind reading.
The skills of Occlumency and Legilimency weren't introduced until recently, in GOF, on page 517, Snape is threatning Harry with Veritaserum to find out whether or not he broke into the potions room and took dillyweed. It was really Mr Crouch that had broken into Snape's office, and harry knows this, but Snape doesn't do any mind reading.
I suppose you could look at that a few ways ..
One is that Snape didnt want to sho Harry he could read his mind
Second is that Snape couldnt get in there - or didnt want to incase he got Voldemort
Third = oversight on JKR's behalf :p
Like the observation thou :D
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