**Spoiler - In the Cards **

[Alz]

'I am not one to press my company upon those who do not value it. If Dumbledore chooses to ignore the warnings the cards show-'

'Again and again, no matter how I lay them out-'

'-the lightning-struck tower,' she whispered. 'Calamity. Disaster. Coming nearer all the time ...'



She see's and predicts this as the lightning-struck tower ...
Dumbledore buys it in the Astonomy tower ...
What interests me is the 'lightning-struck' part - we know that D was seen off with AK - we know that when Harry was attacked with AK he got a lightning shaped scar ...
Thoughts?

[Tonks]

Oho - now i get it :o

You know, while Trelawney isn't exactly the greatest Divination teacher in the world, she does have a knack at predicting some things that happen to come true. I have to wonder if she is just good at guessing, or if she is using some tool to help her predict these events.. How did she know Neville would break a cup back in PoA? How did she know something bad would happen to Lavender on the 13th of October?

Anyway, back to lightning..
Obviously Harry has the lightning scar on his forehead as you mentioned, and he was there when Dumbledore was killed.. so im sort of seeing the term "lightning-struck tower" as her unknowingly predicting Harry would be in the tower when disaster "struck" .. ?

Also, when AK is performed, there is a "flash" of green light.. almost like a flash of lightning that strikes the person down.. it just happens to be green and non-electrical.. Could her prediction be interpreted to mean simply that someone is going to be disastrously killed by the AK curse?

[Finnegan]

You're making a good point, Beanie - but I'm not sure that I agree. :o

I'm not big on Tarot cards (not big at all), but isn't it a Tarot card, the Lightning-struck Tower? I'm pretty sure that's there's a card called The Tower, which depicts a tower being struck by lightning, and someone falling out of it. Oh, wait - I think you actually might be right - JKR is describing the picture in the Tarot card, and she's using the curse as the lightning. At least, that's what I think she's doing.

[Tonks]

You know, that's quite a lot of symbolism if that's true..

JKR uses the Tarot card the Lightning-Struck tower to supposedly represent disaster and calamity, yet makes the actual disaster and calamity occur in a tower, with a curse that strikes someone down - almost like lightning.. and has a history of once before leaving someone marked with a lightning-shaped scar ;)

*Edit* - I googled the Tarot card and came up with a picture of it.. Found it interesting that the picture shows someone falling off the tower as well, and we all know what happened to Dumbledore..

[Finnegan]

You know, that's quite a lot of symbolism if that's true..

You're right - it is. I've got a friend who's very much into the Tarot thing, and I'll ask her what it usually means, this card. But I'm pretty sure that every Tarot card has a double meaning - that every card could be good as well as bad. So while we may have only seen "the bad side of the card" at first, there could be a good meaning to this as well - the use of the card could be a hint of the good side-effects of Dumbledore's death.

[Fortescue]

But the cards Trelawney had were just a regular deck of playing cards:


Harry proceeded through deserted corridors, though he had to step hastily behind a statue when Professor Trelawney appeared around a corner, muttering to herself as she shuffled a pack of dirty-looking playing cards, reading them as she walked.
"Two of spades: conflict," she murmured, as she passed the place where Harry crouched, hidden. "Seven of spades: an ill omen. Ten of spades: violence. Knave of spades: a dark young man, possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner-"

Trelawney has always predicted death and disaster, but it's odd, now with the war on - was her predictions becoming correct because she was actually becoming a seer, or was it just because she always predicts bad things and most everything that happened in HBP was bad???

[Boing]

I loved that last part - where she said there was a dark-haired boy who disliked the questioner . . .:D

Fortescue, she did have playing cards at that point, but later on I think Blaise is right she is talking about Tarot cards. She has several different ways of "predicting" things. She actually took the card out and showed it to Harry. As she showed it to him, she said, "the lightning struck tower," so that suggests the picture was of a lightning struck tower. Otherwise, she would have said something like "the three of spades - refers to the lightning struck tower" or something.

It would be really interesting to hear the good part of the card, if anyone knows it!

[Fortescue]

From the two quotes it does seem she might actually be making real predictions. It could be the stress of all that is happening around her is bringing out her "inner eye".

Unfortunately, no one is going to take anything Trelawney said seriously because of all the wrong predictions she had made in the past. I like the one about the "dark young man" as well - "possibly troubled, who dislikes the questioner...." could the questioner be Snape and the dark young man Draco - or was it Dumbledore and Draco? Draco didn't like the questions of either of them.

[Boing]

Forte - I thought the "dark young man, possibly troubled, who dislikes the questioner" was Harry and the questioner was the one asking the questions - Trelawney! That's why it was so funny!

Agreed, though. No one will take her seriously - especially not if she's just reading cards. Now if she goes into another trance, that's easier to believe. But I don't think there's much time for another prophecy in the last book . . .

[Alz]

See I was thinking Snape and Harry for the dark young boy thing.
Credability has always been a tough gig for Sibyll - but see JKR is capable of manipulating this to great effect - we always dismiss what she says unless she is in a trance - but it could be the fact the situation she finds herself in now is making her powers more - well powerful.
She has her position threatened by Firenze - then of course the breakdown of her relationship with Dumbledore - I think her natural defence mechanism is to actually start to be a seer ...

[kashlie]

Which girl did she tell to beware of the red headed boy? It wasn't Lavender, was it?

See, I think apart from her trance predictions, her simplest ones also come true. Just the off handed comments...not the 'i am really trying to make a prediction but you can't force the inner eye' ones

[Fortescue]

One thing I noticed about the second quote - I think JKR was making a point as all the cards that Trelawney drew were spades even though she had shuffled the deck. Spades are known for their dark meanings, especially the ace of spades: the death card, that luckily, didn't come up.

It will be interesting to see what she does in the last book and especially if she does something to make people realize there is more to her than once thought.

See I was thinking Snape and Harry for the dark young boy thing.


I took the "dark young man" to mean dark as in brooding, dark magic, not dark as in hair. Even though Harry went through a lot in HBP, I think Draco went through a lot more, and even though he is now a Death Eater, and will probably remain one, I think he was all talk before and the transformation to a future killer had taken its toll on him.

Which girl did she tell to beware of the red headed boy? It wasn't Lavender, was it?

Yes, it was Lavender in their third year - when Trelawney said Harry was supposed to die every other week. That's what I mean - if Trelawney was having trouble getting through to Dumbledore, thus the first quote Blaise did, where Trelawney told Harry she wasn't supposed to bother the Headmaster anymore, I can only imagine what it will be like for her now that McGonagall is Head. McGonagall really doesn't like Trelawney!!

[Snuffles]

I really was bothered when I read about Trelawney's cards.
I do kind of take her seriously, you know. *sheepish smile*
Then, when Dumbledodre died... [died!!!! :(]
I was like.. "ohmigawd. did Trelawney have a small, but true prophecy yet again??"
The lightning-struck tower: obviously the Avada Kedavra Charm, as well as the glowing, Dark Mark above it.... Calamity!!! Yes!! It's a calamity for all people!! :evil:


Lavender??? Is that right?? :eek: I didn't read the PoA for such a long time, and I'd have to check and see for myself!! Trelawney is not a fraud, after all!!!

[Fortescue]

You're making a good point, Beanie - but I'm not sure that I agree. :o

I'm not big on Tarot cards (not big at all), but isn't it a Tarot card, the Lightning-struck Tower? I'm pretty sure that's there's a card called The Tower, which depicts a tower being struck by lightning, and someone falling out of it. Oh, wait - I think you actually might be right - JKR is describing the picture in the Tarot card, and she's using the curse as the lightning. At least, that's what I think she's doing.

I was in a bookshop yesterday and thought about this thread :rolleyes:

I found a book on Tarot cards and sure enough, there it was, the Tower card. It even had a picture of lightning striking the top of the tower and bodies falling :rolleyes:

I found a website with some of the same information - they have descriptions of each card. I can't help myself - I have to put a link to this because if you read the meaning behind the Tower card - you can see the significance of the entire ending of HBP.

Aeclectic Tower Card (http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/tower.shtml)

Note the reference to the Fool and false beliefs. It's very interesting!

[Alz]

Umm - now that is interesting - not least in the fact it gives no further clarifications on Snape's motivations here ...
It could be read both ways ... ummm ...
Scary thou - looks like JKR has been doing her homework again on this one ... the description given here is very insightful - I would recommend you all take a look!

[Fortescue]

I really hate to say this, Blaise, but when you read the card information several times as I have - it immediately takes my mind to the quote you now have in your signature! :rolleyes:

Not to get into DiE :D But maybe Dumbledore did have a little something to hide!

[Alz]

You think ;)
It interests me greatly what Dumbledore was seeing - what he was re-calling as he drank that green stuff - because to me - it was a question we will have answered later on - not an answer from the previous books questions.
I dont want to drift off topic really - what I took from the initial read of this was the fact we had lightning, AK and someone dying ... I just wondered more about the significance of the lightning, Harry's scar and the AK spell ...

[Fortescue]

Looking at the meaning behind the Tower Card:
"In fact, The Fool, himself, helped build this Tower back when the most important thing to him was making his mark on the world and proving himself better than other men."

This part of the description could actually be looked at as the meaning behind both Dumbeldore and Voldemort. Both are known as the greatest Wizards of the age - "proving himself better than other men," sort of makes me think of Voldemort more than Dumbledore, but it could really be read either way.

The card is basically like the ace of spades, or the death card, represented by the unlucky number, thirteen. If Trelawney has truly been "seeing," the meaning behind this card is very significant in the characters of both Dumbledore and Voldemort - and there are a few things in the description that could also relate to Harry:

"What's most important to remember is that the tearing down of this structure, however painful, makes room for something new to be built."

This could refer to Harry's new resolution, now that he is alone, to finish Dumbledore's work?

[Alz]

I suppose you could argue that indeed it is more Dumbledore than Voldemort based on 2 facts ... he appears to be a 'fool' based in his trust in Snape - who finally dispatched him ... and second point, Dumbledore has helped build Hogwarts, where the tower was situated, the same way as the founders and all the other Heads have done, they have all contributed somewhat to Hogwarts...

[Fortescue]

The Tower Card is the thirteenth card, and also the death card - thirteen is know by superstitious people as an unlucky number - I thought about this and also the other scene from the book where Trelawney was reading from the regular deck of playing cards and kept drawing spades. The seven of spades came up as an "ill omen," and Tom Riddle noted the number seven as the best possible number in which to split his soul.

I did a little research on the significance of the number seven and it is a really important number all the way back to the date of creation. I'll just note a few things that might pertain to Tom/Voldemort as there's quite a lot of relevant stuff on the number. I have highlighted the most significant passages:


According to E. W. Bullinger in Number in Scripture, the number seven represents "spiritual perfection." (1) In Hebrew, the number seven (shevah) comes from the root word savah, which means "to be full or satisfied, have enough of." The number seven often venerates these ideas. On the seventh day, God rested from the work of creation since it was full, complete, good and perfect. In relation to time, seven marks the week of seven days used by all nations. Seven tells of eternal Sabbath-keeping for the people of God in all its everlasting perfection.(2) In Daniel's "time-oriented" prophecy, the number seven also points to spiritual perfection or completeness for the Jewish people.

******************

The Number 7 has for ages been regarded as the Number of mystery relating to the spiritual side of things. It may be remarked that all through the Bible and other sacred books, the seven, whenever mentioned, always stands in relation to the spiritual or mysterious God force, and has a curious significance in this sense whenever employed.
For a few instances of this, take the seven days (or cycles) of the creation as referred to in Genesis:

The seven heavens, so often referred to.
The seven thrones.
The seven seals.
The seven churches.

The seven days' march round the walls of Jericho, when, on the seventh day, the walls fell, before that mysterious God force symbolized in the number of seven. It is also remarkable that there are exactly seven generations from David to the birth of Christ. In Revelation we read of the seven spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Ezekiel speaks of The seven angels of the Lord that go to and fro through the whole earth, which is believed to be a reference to the magnetic influences of the seven creative planets which radiate through the earth.

Again, we have the seven Spirits referred to in the Egyptian religion.

The seven Devas of the Hindus' Bible.
The seven Angels of the Chaldeans.
The seven Amschaspands of Persian faith.
The seven Sephiroth of the Hebrew Cabala.
The seven Archangels of Revelation, etc. etc.

***************

In numerology:

The negative number meaning of the 7 may tend to display paranoia and insecurity about how they handle their affairs. The negative number meaning of the 7 may also tend to be harsh and aloof at times, often distant from outside contact.



Of all the numbers I looked at, this was the one that had the most references to Genesis, and creation.
Note the significance in the number 7 and time.
The number seven is also considered a lucky number.

[Boing]

Also very strong for magical people - as noted in HBP. JKR also said in her interview that Ginny is a powerful witch because she is the seventh daughter of a seventh son/daughter, etc. So I think it has connotations of power as well.

The imagery of the lightning struck tower is very interesting. The interpretation of who the fool is can be very interesting as well. When I first read the link from Fortescue, I imagined Harry to be the fool. When looked at from different character perspectives it can really change the meaning behind it.

[Fortescue]

I think this part of my quote on the number 7 is very significant in Voldemort's case:


the number seven also points to spiritual perfection or completeness


That definitely seems what Voldemort was after by making the Horcruxes. If you look at the interconnection between your spirit and soul, which some look upon as two separate things, but I think they are one.


take the seven days (or cycles) of the creation as referred to in Genesis:


The definition of genesis is: the origin or coming into being of something. Maybe by making the Horcurxes, Voldmort felt like he was creating himself, or becoming something he's not.

[Alz]

The last quote grabbed my attentions - I love the whole cyclic nature of Voldemort in the series ...
He dies, lives, dies, lives over and over again we see him cycling between death and life ... and you can see the appeal of the Horcruxes to him ... it allowed the ebb and flow of time, space and matter to be blown apart - immortality doesnt care for that ...
It's like the famous quote from Snape - 'Time and space matter in magic ..' this could so easily be seen that the Horcruxes Voldemort created were never going to fully keep him alive - because then he would be breaking the fundmentals in nauture ...
If you think time is a factor or not - you cant deny that Voldemort's life and most recent events do follow the cycle or birth and death ... somewhat the significance of the bird in the bell jar in the DoM ... the DE's head baby to adult ... interesting :p

[halliemei]

I read a post on another site by a Tarot reader who looked up the meanings of the cards in question. Here's what he said:

This is a technique for reading playing cards like Tarot. There are subtle differences from the actual Tarot, and different systems for working with playing cards, but since she's also reading Tarot cards (she got the Tower), she must know the Tarot system.

If we use the Tarot system for reading playing cards (as opposed to the most basic system of fortune telling), where Spades stand in for Swords, we come up with a different interpretation:
Two of Swords: An uneasy truce

Seven of Swords: Futility or Failure

Ten of Swords: Total Destruction

Knave of Swords: an intelligent, though possibly calculating young man, most likely blond with a pale complexion


I suggest that if we use the Tarot system (and Rowling has very well-researched this stuff, it's obvious), then Trelawney's talking about Snape and Draco's situation. The Tower Card -- total destruction, and also literally, the Astronomy Tower -- seems to suggest this, too.

Snape makes the uneasy truce. The situation leads to no room for manoeuvring. this leads to destruction -- destruction of Dumbledore's life and Snape's hope for redemption.


I agree with this person -- the Tarot reading was about the Unbreakable vow, related to Draco. As usual (in my opinion), Trelawney saw something and misread it.

[Alz]

I just stumbled across this one - I must have missed it :o
Yah - I like that a lot!
You see it plays to the usual JKR plot - make the answer have multiple paths - I think the observations and readings above are very good - but there is also a lot to be said about it applying to Harry.

Draco was very troubled by the task set to him - in fact he was living on the edge towards the end.
Harry observed at Slughorns Christmas party that Draco was looking very different - the first chance he really had to see him upclose for a long time. Given what Draco had to do and also what was at stake - you can see why it was effecting him physically as well as mentally.

[Fortescue]

I don't know a lot about Tarot cards, but when I was looking around for the meaning of the Tower Card, I found that there are many different sets of Tarot Cards. The Tower Card is the number 13 - a number that represents bad luck to most people, and each different set of Tarot cards had a different symbolic reference for that number - not all decks have a Tower card. In all the sets I viewed the number 13 represented extreme misfortune or death. So regardless of what deck of cards Trelawney used, she saw death.

[Alz]

She see's and predicts this as the lightning-struck tower ...
Dumbledore buys it in the Astonomy tower ...
What interests me is the 'lightning-struck' part - we know that D was seen off with AK - we know that when Harry was attacked with AK he got a lightning shaped scar ...
Thoughts?
I suppose I wanted to look back at my own post here - because before all this great interpretations of the Tarot cards came out - I was more taken by the Lightning-struck part ...
Considering that Harry was a scar in that shape - he got it from being nearly killed ...
I just wondered if the lightning struck tower could mean Dumbledore does survive as well ...
Not sure - just saw the symbolic nature of the use of lightning :)