Secret of Underage Magic Revealed *spoiler*

[Fortescue]

In HBP, Dumbledore revealed to Harry that the Ministry of Magic cannot detect who uses magic in an all-wizarding household. The only reason Harry got busted for Dobby's Hover Charm was because he was supposed to be the only person with magic abilities on Privet Drive.


A Sluggish Memory - HBP, pg 368 US

"You are quite right - they can detect magic, but not the perpetrator: You will remember that you were blamed by the Ministry for the Hover Charm that was, in fact, cast by - "

"Dobby," growled Harry; this injustice still rankled. "So if you're underage and you do magic inside an adult witch or wizard's house, the Ministry won't know?"

"They will certainly be unable to tell who performed the magic," said Dumbledore, smiling slightly at the look of great indignation on Harry's face. "They rely on witch and wizard parents to enforce their offspring's obedience while within their walls."


Will this knowledge be of importance to Harry since he still has to wait to turn 17 to use magic at Privet Drive?

Since JKR said he only needs to go back for a short time; an afternoon possibly, will Harry chose to spend his time before he sets out for the Horcruxes at the Weasley's where he can freely do magic as it is an all-wizarding household?

Also, his two best friends, Ron and Hermione are now of age, so logically, based on what Dumbledore said, Harry could do magic in their presence and the Ministry would never know.

Harry obviously felt duped, and was actually used more as an example of what happens when an underage wizard uses magic outside of Hogwarts, when any of the Weasley children could use magic freely and not face retribution.

Any thoughts?

[Snuffles]

Also, his two best friends, Ron and Hermione are now of age, so logically, based on what Dumbledore said, Harry could do magic in their presence and the Ministry would never know

Wow!! this never occured to me! This is a great idea! So then, now. every time he casts a spell or something when he is with Ron or Hermione!!! :D How cool!!! I think Harry would have to stay at the Dursley's till his birthday, when he would be turning seventeen, which would be near the end of July.

I always thought the law worked kind of weird, because in GoF, at the Quidditch Tournament, when we see the little boy playing around with his father's wand but never getting in trouble except from his mother. So.. this makes sense!!

[Nimue]

It does make sense in that sucky kind of way. What's more irritating is that Harry has to go back "home" at all. He hates Privet Drive and you know that once he's of age he'll never go back there again. As for the magic with R. & H. Any of them probebly could have performed magic anyway--At least anywhere where wizards were present.

[Fortescue]

According to Harry, he was going back to the Dursley's only for a short "visit". He did not say he was staying. Dumbledore said if he went back one more time, "as long as he could still call Privet Drive home," the protection would last until he turned 17. He does not have to stay there until his birthday, or even spend the night - which I don't think he intends to do.


The White Tomb - HBP, pg 651 US

"We'll be there, Harry," said Ron.
"What?"
"At your aunt and uncle's house," said Ron. "And then we'll go with you wherever you're going."
"No -" said Harry quickly; he had not counted on this, he had meant them to understand that he was undertaking this most dangerous journey alone.
"You said to us once before," said Hermione quietly, "that there was time to turn back if we wanted to. We've had time, haven't we?"


I can only assume from this that Ron and Hermione will accompany Harry to the Dursley's - he will pop his head in the door, say goodbye forever, and set out to the Weasley's for Bill and Fleur's wedding, and then off on their adventure, and as long as he's with Ron and Hermione, he will be able to do magic wherever they go as they are both 17.

This does raise the question though, why didn't Harry get into trouble with the Ministry when the Advanced Guard showed up in OotP to take Harry to Grimmauld Place and Tonks did magic to help Harry pack and levitate his trunk down the stairs???? The Ministry should have pinned that on Harry as well!

Slightly off topic: We might even get the pleasure of seeing Hermione admonishing the Dursley's for the way they treated Harry over the years. I'm sure that would make Harry happy - having another sensible person chew out the Dursley's for the horrid way they've treated him. I can even see Hermione telling the Dursley's, to their complete shock of course, some of the things that Harry had faced and survived over the years - things that any normal family would have been proud. She once mentioned that the Dursley's would be proud of Harry's surviving Voldemort in the graveyard, and Harry said something like, they would only be upset that he hadn't died.

[Sirius Potter Fan]

First. . . I don't think the Dursleys will ever be proud of Harry. They are just too. . . hmmm. . . what's the word?. . . STUPID! (Shhhhhhh! don't tell my kids I said that!) And yes I think Harry will just show up to gather up anything he may still have there that he wants, and to tell them thanks for nothing, and leave!

Good catch on the Tonks thing at privit drive, curious, unless since they knew they would be there and would likely be using magic themselves, they might have notified someone at the ministry who does the "monitoring" that it would be them. Only thing I can think of. Most likely just a little goof on JKR's part :eek: :eek:

Really, as far as magic away from school goes, I would say Harry is home free now. (maybe Hermionie will give Dudley his piggy face :evil1: ) as long as he is with them, or at the Burrow he can do what he needs to do, and the others can take the "credit" :)

[Alz]

The Order do have people in the MoM - I am sure they could have pulled a few strings over the Tonks stuff in OoTP ...

The MoM isnt niave - if Harry started to do magic left right and centre - the MoM will question the people who are present - and if they were so inclind there are ways of extracting the truth ... so that seems almost irrelevant.
Given all that is happening and the Wizarding world is at war - they arent goint to be too fussed about Harry performing magic ... the MoM job now is to try and stop the Muggle world seeing what is going on - thus a bigger battle would be created ...
I think there isnt that much room to exploit this - this was a JKR answer from the past books - she was giving us one of the many answers we had ;)

[lsuandmonroe]

I believe that if Harry really wanted to perform magic at the Dursleys he would. Maybe not on purpose like with Aunt Marge.

But that brought up a good point, the only time Harry was caught was at the Dursley's.

It also answers the question on how Hermione was able to do magic at Diagon Alley and on the Express before school started!! Both areas were filled with people over age, it would have been a hassel to see if the person who castes the magic was underage.

[Tonks]

It also answers the question on how Hermione was able to do magic at Diagon Alley and on the Express before school started!! Both areas were filled with people over age, it would have been a hassel to see if the person who casts the magic was underage.
Could Hermione have known about how the MoM detects underage magic? She performed spells both times, quite aware that she was not at school, yet doing so anyway. In addition, I think there was a point during GoF after the Quidditch World Cup where Harry performs the Lumos spell because they are stumbling through the dark woods.. naturally, that wasn't picked up on because they were surrounded by hundreds of adults there..

Backing up a minute - I do think you're allowed to use magic on the Hogwarts Express:
CoS - Ch. 18: Dobby's Reward (US version p. 340)

' Too soon, it was time for the journey home on the Hogwarts Express. Harry, Ron, Hermione, Fred, George, and Ginny got a compartment to themselves. They made the most of hte last few hours in which they were allowed to do magic before the holidays. '
Anyway.. if Hermione knew this I don't find it too hard to believe that she might keep it quiet from Harry and Ron (and anyone else) because she is such a believer in following the rules and knows they would probably try to perform magic outside of school.. and she doesn't want them to get caught and get in trouble..

[kashlie]

I totally believe Hermione knew of the rule...no doubt she read it in a book somewhere - perhaps Hogwarts, A History (gee I wish JKR would actually write that book!). She possibly overlooked telling the others for the reason Tonks mentioned - she liked the rules kept - but she may have simply thought they knew already (as evident when she assumes they know about apparating and disapparating inside Hogwarts).

[Somnia_Veritas]

"Are you sure that's a real spell?" said the girl. "Well, it's not very good, is it? I've tried a few simple spells just for practise and it's all worked for me. Nobody in my family's magic at all..." (Hermoine on the Hogwarts Express, PS)

I wonder why she didn't get into trouble if she was doing this at home? I don't imagine that her family lives in a condo with another witch or wizard in one of the nearby units...

[Boing]

I know this has been discussed somewhere else, but now that we know that underage magic isn't necessarily watched/detected around other wizards, I think perhaps she meant that she had practiced a few on the train? Or in Diagon Alley? She would have to have done it when she got her wand, so it's possible she did it in Diagon Alley or on the train.

I have to believe that the messenger that comes with the letter to Muggleborn kids says something about no underage magic/no magic away from the magical community.

I don't think Hermione ever explicity says she did magic at home . . . just that she had practiced. So it's possible that she did it in a magic-filled area such as Diagon Alley or the Hogwarts Express.

Question: Can the Ministry detect nonverbal spells?

[Somnia_Veritas]

I'd assume that they can, Boing. Dobby's spell wasn't verbal, if I remember correctly, and they mistook that for being Harry. Harry also blew up his aunt without a verbal spell, and the Ministry had to clean that mess up and obliviate the necessary people.

[Fortescue]

The rules of underage magic don't seem to apply until the end of the students first year at Hogwarts when they leave the school and are given the letter that reminds them they aren't allowed to use magic at home. It would be pointless to tell a child who doesn't have much magic talent anyway that they couldn't ever perform any type of magic before the age of 11. How do you think Ginny Weasley got so good at the Bat Bogey Hex before she even attended Hogwarts?

I think the magic that Hermione did prior to getting on the Hogwarts express her first year was probably done at home, but because she wasn't officially a student yet, and hadn't been given the letter from Hogwarts telling her she couldn't do magic outside of school, there was no way the Ministry could punish her. It's not like the warning is in their Hogwarts letter - not that we've ever been shown, and every year the students get a new copy of the letter to remind them as they leave Hogwarts for the summer.