View Full Version : The Veil, HBP and book 7
So, we all remember OoTP and the burning questions about the veil ...
Did HBP offer up anymore clues to the device?
Is there anyhting we learnt in HBP that could show the veil future in book7?
It seems that we all have moved our focus - does this mean that perhaps the veil was nothing more than a trigger for dispatching Black - or will it finally have it's day in Book7?
We saw in the TLC/Mugglenet interview JKR responded on the veil - interesting answers as always ...
Fortescue
26-07-2005, 16:11
We might see the veil again as according to JKR and her "no comment" regarding the locked room Harry couldn't enter, it seems Harry will return to the DoM once more, but the veil was not even mentioned in HBP.
Sirius Potter Fan
26-07-2005, 21:41
I think we will get at least some information on the veil, in that JKR did say that we would hear from Sirius again. (hoping that it wasn't just that he had a will :rolleyes: ) If Sirius can indeed communicate from there, the there will have to be some sort of explination or resolution.
I found it a bit strange, or maybe a huge clue that the Veil played such a big role in OoTP and then no mention of it in HBP ...
I mean, it really was prominent in my mind as I sat down to read HBP - and just like - nope, no more details ...
HBP was all about capping all the little answers from the series, the fact that this remains open suggests it plays a big role in the whole septology ... and such worthy of much speculation ...
Also JKR's comments - she said it was so that the MoM could study death ... Dumbledore called it the Death Room ... someone else was obsessed with death and looking at ways of preventing it ... wonders, wonders, wonders
Snuffles
02-08-2005, 00:46
Well, I for one, found out that the Veil wasn't the final resting place for dead wizards and witches. :p After reading OotP, I thought they just chuck bodies of dead wizards and witches in the veil. Pretty unceremonious, but that was what I thought. :o Well, in HBP, there was the mention of Harry's parents' grave, but I'm wondering, how did Harry know they had graves? Nobody told him of them, did they?
See a little offtopic - but I think that was pretty bad writing from JKR ...
We have never been lead to believe, even via Harry that his parents had graves - in fact we all spent a lot of time talking about this very thing ... then all of a sudden Harry comes out with he might go to Godric's Hollow and see the graves ... I mean even the Godric's Hollow thing made me think it was a little ... well a little coarse for JKR ...
I suppose what I am struggling with is what we found out from OoTP - given no extra facts on HBP - and that it will appear in 7 ... how does it link together?
Many talk about the room which was locked in HBP - and also that the veil could be used against Voldemort - does that mean we are to assume that the final showdown takes places in MoM?
If so - why would Voldemort be sniffing around?
He seems to know how to get in there OK ;)
:confused: What EXACTLY was DD regretting as he was fed the potion? If he had anything to do with the Potters' deaths, why was he so vague when he spoke to McGonagall in SS?
"What they're saying," she pressed on, "is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to find the Potters. The rumor is that Lily and James Potter are -- are -- that they're -- dead."
Dumbledore bowed his head. Professor McGonagall gasped.
"Lily and James . . . I can't believe it . . . I didn't want to believe it . . . Oh, Albus . . ."
Dumbledore reached out and patted her on the shoulder. "I know . . . I know . . ." he said heavily.
. . .
" . . .but how in the name of heaven did Harry survive?"
"We can only guess," said Dumbledore. "We may never know.
----------------------------------------------------
Why wouldn't DD know exactly what happened if he was in Godric's Hollow when the Potters died?
Sirius Potter Fan
03-08-2005, 07:10
Well, I for one, found out that the Veil wasn't the final resting place for dead wizards and witches. :p After reading OotP, I thought they just chuck bodies of dead wizards and witches in the veil. Pretty unceremonious, but that was what I thought. :o Well, in HBP, there was the mention of Harry's parents' grave, but I'm wondering, how did Harry know they had graves? Nobody told him of them, did they?
Possibly, Harry had just assumed that there were graves there. We have to remember that Harry is still very unknowledgable of the wizarding world. Seeing that Dumbledore now had a grave, Harry I guess figured there had to be graves for his parents. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, however, hasn't it been mentioned somewhere that there was supposed to be a graveyard scene on the hogwarts grounds in the CoS movie, but JKR told them to take it out, because it would give something away?
Now, the veil. . . well, it is obviously a quick way to "kill"/get rid of people/wizards/witches. doesn't require even a wand, just a push. as such, probably a good thing that it isn't redily accessable to "common" wizards. I don't think it's going to be used as a weapon however. . . we have been told that we will hear from Sirius, so some form of communication must be possible, we just don't know how yet. We know that Sirius is considered to be "dead" since he is on the other side of the veil. Could it be possible. . . maybe getting a little wild here. . . that with information and communication from the order, that Sirius may be able to effect Voldemorts controll of the infiri? Perhaps there is some way from him being inside the veil, that he can throw a "wrench" in the works of Voldemort's comunication with the infiri?
JKR stated that the Veil was used by the MoM to study death ...
I got the feeling from Dumbledore reffering to it as the Death Room that is was an execution chamber - but JKR dispells that myth ...
JKR also stated that the veil had been there as long as the MoM - so why would they spend so much time studying death?
I figured they might have been looking into Horcruxes - but then we are told it seemd like only Dumbledore knew of Voldemort using Horcruxes ...
Something just doesnt seem right here ...
okay, here are my thoughts and you might not like them...
We heard from Sirius for the last time, through his will. He wrote that will after meeting Harry again, I am sure of it, because before being in Azkaban he probably didn't think he needed to, then after Lily and James died, he didn't have time to write it.
I think we got all the information about the veil that we are going to. Were there really any unanswered questions about? No. Sirius fell through it, and he is dead. Everyone knew that. The questions of how it works, etc, is for the ministry. As for the reader, I think it was the use of clever writing tools to make us think there is more to that veil, or want there to be so we can see Sirius again.
As for the veil being there as long as the ministry, I am guessing the ministry was built around it (maybe not physically).
I wonder why Harry WOULDN'T assume his parents had a grave. It would be a little morbid for him to not want to visit them, believing their bodies just thrown away. He also grew up in the muggle world, where graves and cremation are the options
He hasn't really spoken to anyone about his decision to visit them, so there is still time for him to be told what happened to his parents bodies. I am hoping they were given something nice, considering the circumstances they were killed in.
Your right - I dont like it ;)
This could end up merging into another thread - but in OoTP we were given a lot and I mean a lot of new things to consider ...
Many of them were not addressed in OoTP - in fact to the point of exclusion...
I think JKR was settling in big pieces for reveal in book 7 - and the reason they were skipped was because JKR was already planning on using HBP to quell all the older issues.
The use of the veil seems to be made more clear by JKR - but exactly why would the Unspeakables be so interested about death?
I mean what or who did they put through it?
It was designed to be observed by a great deal of people - as such I wonder what they put through there?
Of course - the veil could be like - a piece of Wizarding history and the MoM was built around it as a symbol and preservation - or just because it remained so dangerous .. I mean you can throw anything through it and it is gone right ...
The veil itself - there has to be more than just a way to dispose of Sirius - JKR described voices, certain people attracted to it - other fully unaware of it ... there is a purpose to this piece and it wasnt just a plot bunny to dispose of Black - many other ways she could have done that ;)
Sirius Potter Fan
05-08-2005, 12:46
okay, here are my thoughts and you might not like them...
Yes Kash You are right there! ;)
The veil itself - there has to be more than just a way to dispose of Sirius - JKR described voices, certain people attracted to it - other fully unaware of it ... there is a purpose to this piece and it wasnt just a plot bunny to dispose of Black - many other ways she could have done that ;)
And Blaise, you too are quite right! :)
If the only reason the Veil was there was to dispose of Sirius, JKR would have not gone into the mysteries surrounding it. It would have been - the veil was there, Sirius went through, now he's dead, oh well. . . but she didin't do that, she had both Harry and Luna heard the voices, and even commented to each other afterward about it as well. Hermionie sensed that it was something dangerous before anything had happened concerning it, and she hadn't felt that way about any of the other things in the DoM. I think the only way she could have used it just to do away with Sirius, was to allow the mystery of it to be dominant in Harry's mind and trouble him continuously over the circumstances of Sirius' death, but she didn't do that, she had Harry adjust actually quite quickly, rather quicker than I actualy liked :mad: So obviously that wasn't the issue either.
I also can't swallow that the will was the communication with Sirius that JKR was talking about. It's way too obvious, and would be a cop-out to boot,but. . . that's another thread :p
I think there will be communication, and that communication will be it's key to the story. . . you just need something. . . something or someone, to tune into what those voices are saying. . .
I suppose my question is still the same as it was after OoTP ...
We all know Voldemort was obsessed with his mortality - and we saw in HBP exactly the lengths he would go through to ensure it ..
JKR said that the DoM was using the veil to study death - she also said it had been there a while - the question is did they recently start to investigate death - as in the last 10/20/30 years on the understanding that Voldemort was obsessed with his mortality?
If so - what exactly would they have been doing?
What actually happens when a wizard dies? Why was DD snoozing in his portrait? Is Lupin somehow James in a transformed mode? Will DD communicate through chocolate frog cards? :confused:
I think the Lupin/James thing has been dismissed by JKR ...
I think there could be relevance in your question - would agree somewhat as well - but when Dumbledore died ... he just seemed to die ...
There was of course the Phoenix Lament that I am still trying to get to grips with in my head ... but for the most part they just seem to die ...
That is what made me wonder about why the MoM would investigate it so ...
And the snoozing Albus - I am also wondering that ... just seemed very un-Dumbledore - afterall death was the next great adventure to him - he didnt fear it and I expected his portrait to be almost trying to get everyone over his death ... small funny comments etc ...
Sir Cadogan
15-08-2005, 14:30
DD snoozing in his portrait ... Maybe he was still exhausted from what he had to go through, from the poisonous drink in the cave to the AK curse from Snape, and has to sleep it off. That's what went through my head, anyway, when I read that passage.
OK, so I want to get sightly back on track here ...
So you have Voldemort totally afraid of death, you have the DoM investigating it ...
The veil was in a public area that had seating - public ...
I am still trying to work out if - and why the DoM would be investigating death ...
I mean - you could understand Voldemort trying to get a better handle on it in an effort to cheat it ... but why the DoM?
I wonder if somewhere along the line - maybe during the 'thrice defied' moments of the Potter and Longbottoms (Auror's) have pulled up and unearthed some of the experiments Voldemort was doing in order to conquer death?
Sirius Potter Fan
16-08-2005, 14:14
What do you suppose would happen if someone stood half in and half out of the veil? since a physical being goes in as Sirius did, do they remain physical on the other side? if so can a physical object: parchment, wand, mirror . . . be passed back and forth through the veil? I'm shure that is some of what the "study". . . but where are the answers?
This was another question I was thinking about ...
Their appeared to be a lack of cohesive links between the things Harry and co experienced - I would have thought at least 2 scenario's played out there are linked - what I am suggesting is that the veil and another one of the locations they visited are linked ...
Think of the big, clock like room and then a room that is filled with objects that seem to defy time ... that kind of thing ..
What makes me wonder more is that from best of memory none of this stuff was really bought up again in HBP - I suppose I was looking for others to show me some links - which makes me think how much is relevant in book 7?
Well, JKR said the veil has been around as long as the Ministry of Magic has been around, which, she also notes, is not quite as long as Hogwarts, but a very long time. So, this thing has been around for hundreds of years . . .
I think the Department of Mysteries is just that - they are investigating the great mysteries - as JKR said in her interview, "death, the universe, etc." Like scientists in the Muggle world.
What I want to know, after reading that interview - is there a link between the veil being created/appearing after Hogwarts? In essence, is there a link between Hogwarts or a founder and the veil?
The veil would have been a tidy way to remove people - not like you could find them again:p
I wonder also - didnt JKR say it was always where it was - as in the MoM was built around it?
The age of the device indicated it was really old and would fit it with origins in and around when Hogwarts was created - is there significance to the actual location the MoM was built on?
Think about it - we are told of this 'room of love' etc - I wonder if Voldemort is detine to walk those halls again ... seemed strange he was able to get into the MoM so easily in OoTP ...
Maybe the veil is the resting place for souls! Harry was affected by the veil the most because both of his parents had died and Luna was also affected because of her mother. It is also good to think that the MoM has been studing the veil in the hopes of communicating with the dead.
I believe that the veil, along with the mirror Sirius gave Harry is very inportant in the 7th book. How important they are is anyones guess.
Maybe the veil is the resting place for souls! Harry was affected by the veil the most because both of his parents had died and Luna was also affected because of her mother. It is also good to think that the MoM has been studing the veil in the hopes of communicating with the dead.
I believe that the veil, along with the mirror Sirius gave Harry is very inportant in the 7th book. How important they are is anyones guess.
I think we covered the death aspect in a thread in OoTP forums - I'm not sure it is so open and closed on that point ... The Veil (http://www.maturepotter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52)
I was personally still hopeful for more clues to this in HBP - but left a little wanting - but still with the firm belief that the Veil is still going to be a very important part in book 7 ...
I think when you look at that thread I linked to - you will see that how it effected certain people was different and very hard to link.
Another thing which I found interesting was a post from Wheezy on Hermione & the veil - here (http://www.maturepotter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1237)
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
06-02-2006, 15:47
Well I agree that there's a great deal of mistery about the veil and that will be important to explain why some people turn into gosts whilst the others don't.
But I'm mainly intereste on the mirror thing... the one that Sirius gave Harry... I think it would be too bad if it was given only to make Sirius Sacrificed. I mean Harry could have used it to communicate when he had that vision Voldemort gave him. This mirror's gonna be vey important... maybe it will prove Sirius's not dead... or otherwise it will prove to be an effective way of comunicating with dead people... just a thought. Just hope Sirius's Not dead.
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