View Full Version : **Spoiler - Regrets **
'I don't want ... don't make me ...'
'... don't like ... want to stop ...'
'I don't want to ... let me go ...'
'make it stop, make it stop'
'No, no, no ... no .. I can't ... I can't, don't make me, I don't want to ...'
'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'
'No more, please, no more ...'
'I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die!'
'KILL ME'
OK, I have to get all your thoughts on this ...
It is something I am really keen to hear what you all thought this was about - what was making Dumbledore speak like this (and I dont mean the green liquid!) .. basically, give me your thoughts on big D ...
LovingHarryPotter
26-07-2005, 15:16
Maybe by him saying that stuff it brought back how he burnt his hand so bad. Maybe it brought back that pain he suffered from his hand being so badly damaged.
He may have wanted to die from the pain, and knowing nothing could fix it.
I think it is extremely interesting that he mentions other people - "Don't hurt them!" .. Obviously, Dumbledore feels responsible for something that caused others pain.. or led Voldemort or one of the Death Eaters to hurt others in front of him because of something Dumbledore did..?
It's obvious he is feeling extremely guilty about either one huge thing or a number of small things here. I think this is a good place to mention that he had such power in controlling the Order the first time Voldemort was powerful - maybe that led to some deaths due to some mission he sent some of the members on and he felt really guilty about that?
Fortescue
26-07-2005, 15:22
Dumbledore drank the potion knowing full well that Voldemort would not allow the person who drank it to die on the island as he'd want to know how they knew about the Horcrux and how they managed to get to the basin. But he also added that whatever the potion did it would be something that would make the drinker unable to take the locket, and would possibly kill them eventually. Dumbledore drank the potion knowing he might die doing so - but did it anyway.
I guess I could associate some of what Dumbledore said under the influence of the potion possibly to the prophecy.
"It's all my fault, all my fault," he sobbed. "Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again...."
Thinking of the prophecy and what we learned about it in HBP - could it be that Dumbledore was expressing his regrets at even making a record of the prophecy. If he'd have kept it to himself; never made a record of it or wiped Snape's memory the night he caught him spying, Voldemort would have never found out about it - Voldemort wouldn't have killed James and Lily, and Harry wouldn't be facing either being murdered or becoming a murderer. The prophecy would have simply passed with no action taken by anyone. "please make it stop," stop the forward progression of the prophecy that Voldemort started by marking Harry as his equal.
"I'm sorry, Harry; I should have said, he would not want to immediately kill the person who reached this island," Dumbledore corrected himself. "He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defenses and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin. Do you forget that Lord Voldemort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes."
I'd assume some of the other things could be related to pain - it seemed that he was in a great deal of pain at the end. I wonder if the potion was going to kill him eventually and he knew that to be the case before he drank it? Maybe he did have a few things to get off his concious, but upon reflection, it seems that nothing he said seemed to be very damning.
I think they were Dumbledore's true feelings. The guilt he feels for the deaths of Order members, because he is the leader, and they die for him, and the wizarding world. Deep down he would do anything to have those people alive again, and even though we know Voldemort has to be defeated, Dumbledore has probably thought on occasion that if it meant saving the lives of all those people - Harry's parent included, he'd never challenge Voldemort...
That is such an interesting passage. I think when we all read that, it sort of set off bells in our heads. Then JKR comes along and says we'll find out more about Dumbledore in Book 7 and the way she says it isn't at all flattering . . . not like we'll find out he was a fabulous croquet player, but rather, we'll find out something we might not have thought possible . . .
I have hypothesized that perhaps the liquid made the person drinking it relive Voldemort's worst memories through his eyes (like Harry feeling like he was the snake in OotP). If R.A.B. did in fact change the liquid, that could be a possibility.
However, if the liquid simply refills itself and R.A.B. didn't change it at all, I would say that it causes the drinker to relive their own worst moments. And, honestly, the first thing that comes to my conspiracy-laden mind, is that he somehow feels responsible for/was present at Lily and James's deaths.
But, another thing that comes to mind is that perhaps he is seeing the future as a result of his actions. Perhaps he is seeing what is to befall the Hogwarts students . . . because of his cockiness and belief that he has prepared, there is something that will happen to the students or members of the Order or something and he realizes it is all his fault.
Throughout the series, we have seen how detached he is and seemingly unaware of other's emotions sometimes. JKR has said this is because he is extremely intelligent and has never really had an equal with whom to share and confide, so he doesn't have the social graces some people take for granted. Perhaps his trust in his own intelligence will cause the downfall of some people close to him . . .
Just a couple thoughts.
Sirius Potter Fan
26-07-2005, 21:18
My thoughts when readint it were that it was a potion that had the basic effects of a boggart. That the potion caused the drinker to visualize, and feel as if they are living through their worst fear. As protective as Dumbledore is over his school and students, I can see him fearing students being killed because of a mistake he made, and offering himself instead of the students, and we know he would have.
yarvelling
27-07-2005, 11:20
Y'know, when I read that part in the book, it occured to me that it wasn't DD speaking..almost as though someone else where speaking, or pleading, through him.....
Those just aren't DD's words, or styles of speech; that begging and pleading is SO different to the dignified manner to which we've become accustomed. Even under the circumstances, it just doesn't 'seem' like DD to crack like that.
And then you know, I got to wondering too about his blackened and damaged arm...we never really got to understand exactly how these injuries happened...merely a reference to destroying the Horcrux in the ring.....would he have to be wearing the ring to destroy it? Would it do so much damage to the wearer? No....I had a vague thought, along the lines of what Blaise has been advocating for some time, that maybe DD had something evil in his past, and maybe it was because of this that DD seemed to crack having drunk the potion. I wondered maybe if at some point in his past whether he'd ever for whatever reason, been branded with the mark of the Death Eaters, and it was the final removal of that evil totum that caused such injury to his arm.....DD could have been caught in the Imperius curse for a time, and forced to swear allegiance to Voldemort....
It could have been this , or something like it that caused him to utter those words....
unlikely, I know! But with JKR? Who can tell!!
I like the idea it is making him relive a situation - possibly marked as his worst ever memory ...
It seems genuine that whatever he was seeing in his head was pretty horrific - and nothing is more so than if you feel guilt over something ...
I think there is a reason this was added into the book towards the end - at a point where Harry couldn't ask any questions on it ..
It seems poignant and also eludes to an event, an event or situation where Dumbledore wishes he could go back and change ... interesting ...
Snuffles
27-07-2005, 17:31
Can it be possible that DD had actually killed the Potters, if somewhat indirectly, and was forever bound by the guilt? ;) Crazy thought, I know. lol. Just couldn't imagine what was so bad that it could have caused Dumbledore to crack down like that.
I also think it livens up the worst memory of a person's thoughts. Or, as people have said, be the worst memory of another person other than the one who actually drinks it.
Can it be possible that DD had actually killed the Potters, if somewhat indirectly, and was forever bound by the guilt? ;) Crazy thought, I know. lol. Just couldn't imagine what was so bad that it could have caused Dumbledore to crack down like that.
I don't think that's all that ridiculous.
We know that Dumbledore wasn't the Potters Secret Keeper - after their death I wouldn't be at all surprised if he beat himself up about not pestering them more to let him be their S.K. (assuming Dumbledore is good for discussion purposes here).
Also, there has been speculation that Dumbledore was the other person at the Potters that night - and if so, he may have felt guilty that he was unable to stop Voldemort from killing them.. although I think that's a slight bit of a long shot - :o
Sirius Potter Fan
27-07-2005, 21:30
I like the idea it is making him relive a situation - possibly marked as his worst ever memory ...
It seems genuine that whatever he was seeing in his head was pretty horrific - and nothing is more so than if you feel guilt over something ...
I think there is a reason this was added into the book towards the end - at a point where Harry couldn't ask any questions on it ..
It seems poignant and also eludes to an event, an event or situation where Dumbledore wishes he could go back and change ... interesting ...
OK, for the sake of discussion, let's assume for now that you are right. . . could he be regretting that he didn't stop Riddle when he was young and not as powerfull. He never did trust Riddle, even Riddle knew that, but never did anything to stop him. I would say that that would be a BIG regret!
I will be really honest here - I have no idea what he is really sorry for ... :o
I think that he is facing an event and his action lead to a consequence - that much I can fully assume from the passage ...
I could see this in so many ways - ranging from DiG right through to DiE ... irrelevant of his overall outwards appearance there was an event that he had control over - but lives with the regret locked away in his mind ....
Now see - this is the big powerful D that Voldemort fears - in fact the only one he ever feared ...
I wonder - in a far stretch of my mind if this was a role reversal and what Dumbledore was seeing was him looking at someone, who was uttering what he was ...
Afterall - we agree he doesnt seem the type to cower away right ;)
We have to remember that Dumbledore was 150 years old here, he did battle and defeat a very powerful wizzard in 1945, and he did tell Harry something along the lines of he makes mistakes too, and his tend to be of greater magnitude than the mistakes of others.
I have hypothesized that perhaps the liquid made the person drinking it relive Voldemort's worst memories through his eyes (like Harry feeling like he was the snake in OotP). If R.A.B. did in fact change the liquid, that could be a possibility
In another thread, Blaise suggested that the Inferi who jumped when Harry called accio horcrux was really RAB, and I was thinking RAB would have had to have drank a different potion for him to have had time to switch the lockets, and you have given a great piece to that puzzle here!!!
Consider RAB probably felt this was likely the only horcrux that Voldermort had, and felt that once he destroyed it, normal things could kill voldermort again, so knowing it was likely voldermort would be alone when he came to check, he changed the potion to one that would leave Voldermort dying in the cave reliving his own wosrt memories!!!!
Sirius Potter Fan
16-08-2005, 10:57
Piper, I really like the sound of that! It does make perfect sense. Although I am sure that Dumbledore probably does have some real regrests in his past, like said by before, I just can't see him become cowering and afraid like he was. Dumbledore had too much dignity for that.
In another thread, Blaise suggested that the Inferi who jumped when Harry called accio horcrux was really RAB, and I was thinking RAB would have had to have drank a different potion for him to have had time to switch the lockets, and you have given a great piece to that puzzle here!!!
Consider RAB probably felt this was likely the only horcrux that Voldermort had, and felt that once he destroyed it, normal things could kill voldermort again, so knowing it was likely voldermort would be alone when he came to check, he changed the potion to one that would leave Voldermort dying in the cave reliving his own wosrt memories!!!!
That is pretty hot actually - I like that a lot ...
I also think you should look at what he is saying - that is what really makes me take notice ...
'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'
I look at that and I see a case where Dumbledore made a mistake - a lack of judgement and that is going to lead to at least 2 people dying ...
He is making his case to the person that is going to kill them ...
Thsi could be of course reflective - as in he see's this scenario based on events - or it could be realtime and he is re-living a situation he could have stopped something happening ...
I of course need not imply anymore ...
Wonder if Dumbledore spent the last 16 years also trying to make up for a mistake - perhaps he was redeeming as well?
Sirius Potter Fan
16-08-2005, 14:02
Wonder if Dumbledore spent the last 16 years also trying to make up for a mistake - perhaps he was redeeming as well?
This could get deep Blaise. . .very speculative. . .Could Dumbledore have prevented this?. . .Did he let something slip to set a trap that failed?. . .Was this possibly a veiled confession to Harry?
Lets face it no matter which way you go on this - it is going to be speculative - so I say all please let rip ...
I just read the words over and over and it seems to fit in with that he could have prevented something - it involved more than one person and it's almost like from the pleading that he may have had a chance to prevent it ...
Of course it is also plausible that the last part he could now be reflecting back on the outcome - knowing what he knew afterwards he just ran through his mind pleading for their lifes ...
It could be that the liquid is used to make someone relive their worst nightmare - in such case Dumbledore is seeing something that upset him back when ...
Does this strike anyone as possibly the conversation that took place at Godric's Hollow?
For example:
"Make it stop, make it stop" (James? - while being cruicioed?)
"Dumbledore screamed." (Lily? - her scream as James is AKed?)
"It's all my fault, it's all my fault..." (Peter Pettigrew / Snape? - as he realizes what he's brought on.)
"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it''s my fault, hurt me instead." (Peter Pettigrew / Snape? - as he sees what is about to befall Lily and Harry)
"Please, please, please no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything..." (Lily? - as Voldemort gives her the terrible choice of releasing Harry?"
"KILL ME!" (Again, Lily? - begging Voldemort to kill her instead of Harry --- remember what JK says about Lily making a choice)
If so, then this could have been what was seen through the eyes of Voldemort.
Is this scene just giving us more details about that night? Is it something that Dumbledore wanted Harry to know? What other voices are there? Snape? Hagrid? What was going on with the "I don't want ... Don't make me ..." and "... Let me go ... "?
christina
30-09-2006, 13:46
i think it is possible that DD was some sort of secret-keeper and sumbody, most likely voldemort, was using crucio on him to get him to talk :confused: but i dont think dumbledore would crack that ez though so he mustve been in sooo much pain i know i'll probably get ridiculed for this but it's just a thought
What is going on in this scene? Is it:
A) The forced reliving of a terrible memory? If so, whose?
B) Is it a magical phenomenon similar to priori incantatum whereby something Dumbledore does forces this past history to just come bubbling out?
C) Something else?
D) Christina, do you think that the crucio is taking place in the present tense? or are you saying that the crucio happened earlier and was being relived by Dumbledore?
Does this strike anyone as possibly the conversation that took place at Godric's Hollow?
For example:
"Make it stop, make it stop" (James? - while being cruicioed?)
"Dumbledore screamed." (Lily? - her scream as James is AKed?)
"It's all my fault, it's all my fault..." (Peter Pettigrew / Snape? - as he realizes what he's brought on.)
"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it''s my fault, hurt me instead." (Peter Pettigrew / Snape? - as he sees what is about to befall Lily and Harry)
"Please, please, please no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything..." (Lily? - as Voldemort gives her the terrible choice of releasing Harry?"
"KILL ME!" (Again, Lily? - begging Voldemort to kill her instead of Harry --- remember what JK says about Lily making a choice)
If so, then this could have been what was seen through the eyes of Voldemort.
Is this scene just giving us more details about that night? Is it something that Dumbledore wanted Harry to know? What other voices are there? Snape? Hagrid? What was going on with the "I don't want ... Don't make me ..." and "... Let me go ... "?
Yay - we made it there in the end!
Yes - I would suggest this is happening in or around the fateful night - JKR's latest revalation about no-one has asked her how D got the cloak and also the fact the details we have from this night - considering the only living person present was a baby has always bothered me - plus the raising of the alarms etc
I'm thinking Snape or Dumbledore was there ... when I read this - I then thought Dumbledore ...
Question is - would Dumbledore beg like that to Voldemort?
Well - having watched James die, knowing Lily would be next or worse still the baby Harry ... yes!
What is going on in this scene? Is it:
A) The forced reliving of a terrible memory? If so, whose?
B) Is it a magical phenomenon similar to priori incantatum whereby something Dumbledore does forces this past history to just come bubbling out?
C) Something else?
D) Christina, do you think that the crucio is taking place in the present tense? or are you saying that the crucio happened earlier and was being relived by Dumbledore?
The potion was devised somewhat to make the person forget about what they were doing - including drinking the remaining potion and maybe hit that water and thus a watery death ...
I think it was designed to make someone relive their worse ever memory - to really keep them away from what was going on - confront their demons etc ...
I still believe this is Dumbledore around that fateful night - I just cant believe he was not around the Potters - it just doesnt fit!
christina
01-10-2006, 12:06
i think it was happening earlier, possibly around the nite harry's parents died and crucio bein used on him caused him so much pain that he actually cracked and revealed whoevrs secret he was keeping. wen he drank that potion it caused him to relive the pain he went thru and remember that he betrayed sumone close to him. i hav no idea whos secret it was or wut the secret mite hav been but it miteve been sumthing really important.
well maybe he was reliving the moment wen he pleaded to voldy to leave harry and family alone. he feels bad cuz he had told about the prophecy or didnt erase snapes memory of it or something like that so it was to the point that he was the only person who knew about it. maybe voldy knew that dd knew the whole prophecy and he didnt and he tracked down dd to find out wut the rest was and crucio-ed him.i know a lot of that is jumbled and probly doesnt make any sense at all:confused: . but its not like what dd is saying is makin any sense anyway, rite?;)
You know the more I hear Dumbledore living the moments of the fateful night but in third person - I am really liking that!
From someone who still believes DiE - I think there is a more possible sinister side but on the off chance and trying to get a more mainstream opinion, I would go with the premise Dumbledore is seeing the events of that night - but from who's eyes?
I would have thought it would be one person - since Voldemort made the protection perhaps it was him - but then again he concealed that Horcrux well before the fateful night - as such does the potion link back to Voldemort when drunk?
If so, then he must be aware of his horcrux being disturbed ...
Nah - I like the possibility but given JKR's recent comments about no-one asking her how Dumbledore got the invisibility cloak ... the house being practically destroyed post attack ... and would Dumbledore really have deserted the Potters with no real protection other than a charm ... I think there is a way Dumbledore was with Voldemort at some point that night ...
You know the more I hear Dumbledore living the moments of the fateful night but in third person - I am really liking that!
.
.
.
I like the possibility but given JKR's recent comments about no-one asking her how Dumbledore got the invisibility cloak ... the house being practically destroyed post attack ... and would Dumbledore really have deserted the Potters with no real protection other than a charm ... I think there is a way Dumbledore was with Voldemort at some point that night ...
The more I read it, the more I think I agree. I had been focused on Voldemort's actions that night, but JKR's clues about the cloak and such are really intriguing. I think you are right. I think this is Dumbledore's memory.
Someone had mentioned Hagrid being imperioused on that night. What if we hypothesize some more...
"I don't want to...I don't want to...Let me go..." (Dumbledore? - Warning Hagrid that, although he doesn't want to hurt him - he will, if Hagrid doesn't let him go.)
P.S. Any ideas how the basin got refilled after R.A.B.?
christina
02-10-2006, 17:17
yea im starting to really think dumbledore was there sumhow whether evryone present at the time knew it or not. . ..but that leads to a whole 'nother path.. . .i think the idea of hagrid being imperioused that nite is okay but i think wut we already talked about but who knows( jk rowling! ) . . . .i think r.a.b. refilled the basin with sum sort of potion . . . no idea wut it could be . . . . .wow that nite harry's parents died was a lot more complicated then i ever thought. . .i remember reading hp 1 for the first time and i never thought it would be this complicated. . . .
I suppose my reality check on this theory would be - would Dumbledore beg to Voldemort like that?
We know that when they met the last time, Dumbledore very much had the upper hand - and we know he didnt rest once that meeting took place - ergo, he would have been watching Voldemort and the DE's moves like a hawk - I mean that was one of the premises for the OoTP right?
So, would Dumbledore have got himself into a situation he would have to beg with Voldemort - knowing all too well Voldemort wouldnt listen unless it involved a trade on Voldemort's terms?
That is why the idea of Dumbledore living memories via a third person would seem to fit - you can see another person begging to Voldemort but not Dumbledore right?
I suppose my reality check on this theory would be - would Dumbledore beg to Voldemort like that?
We know that when they met the last time, Dumbledore very much had the upper hand - and we know he didnt rest once that meeting took place - ergo, he would have been watching Voldemort and the DE's moves like a hawk - I mean that was one of the premises for the OoTP right?
So, would Dumbledore have got himself into a situation he would have to beg with Voldemort - knowing all too well Voldemort wouldnt listen unless it involved a trade on Voldemort's terms?
That is why the idea of Dumbledore living memories via a third person would seem to fit - you can see another person begging to Voldemort but not Dumbledore right?
Well, I think this could be the verbatim transcript of the dialog from the night that James and Lily died. I think the begging is from James/Lily/Peter?/Snape? ... or maybe Dumbledore.
Consider this:
The begging dialog is strikingly similar to what Harry is compelled to say in OoTP when Voldemort is attacking him:
"And when the creature spoke, it used Harry's mouth, so that in his agony he felt his jaw move ....
'Kill me now, Dumbledore...'
Blinded and dying, every part of him screaming for release, Harry felt the creature use him again ....
'If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy ....'
Let the pain stop, thought Harry. Let him kill us....End it, Dumbledore....Death is nothing compared to this...."
Could this be Voldemort taunting Dumbledore about that fateful night? If so, it could be one of two things: (1) taunting Dumbledore for his weak begging of that night or (2) taunting Dumbledore about his impotence to help anyone that night. I suspect the latter.
happy_hannah
10-10-2006, 18:50
someone suggested earlier that he potion caused whoever was drinking it to relive voldemorts worst memories, this can't be true because voldemort would never plead for someone else to live, he only cares for himself. When i first read the book it suddenly occured to me that in dumbledore's lifetime did he ever have a wife and kids? he's certainly old enough, and for some reason i thought he was reliving their deaths or soemthing. but then my next thought was that this potion was obviously like a liquid dementor or something and so forces someone to relive their worst memory. Three occasions come to mind where dumbledore might have pleaded in such a way, he was present at the death of lily and james , or perhaps the torture of neville's parents. or maybe his defeat of the dark wizard grindelwad (or however it is spelt), its curious that LV would have still been in school when dumbledore defeated him in 1945, how come no one ever mentions this? how come dumbledore doesnt tell harry how he deafeated grindelwad to give him some tips for defeating LV? I am inclined to think that dumbledore was thinking about his students at the time when he drank the potion because that's who he was most protective of
Well, I think this could be the verbatim transcript of the dialog from the night that James and Lily died. I think the begging is from James/Lily/Peter?/Snape? ... or maybe Dumbledore.
Consider this:
The begging dialog is strikingly similar to what Harry is compelled to say in OoTP when Voldemort is attacking him:
"And when the creature spoke, it used Harry's mouth, so that in his agony he felt his jaw move ....
'Kill me now, Dumbledore...'
Blinded and dying, every part of him screaming for release, Harry felt the creature use him again ....
'If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy ....'
Let the pain stop, thought Harry. Let him kill us....End it, Dumbledore....Death is nothing compared to this...."
Could this be Voldemort taunting Dumbledore about that fateful night? If so, it could be one of two things: (1) taunting Dumbledore for his weak begging of that night or (2) taunting Dumbledore about his impotence to help anyone that night. I suspect the latter.
I love it!
I believe you could be right - because if Dumbledore is cornered and knows he has to make a sacrifice - he will do it because as in the books when he tells Harry about his mistakes with Harry - he says he didnt mind how many people lost their life as long as Harry was OK ...
I could be way off base here but think for a moment that fateful night and you have a room with Lily, Voldemort, Dumbledore and Harry there ... it would be like a stand off - Voldemort would be concentric on killing Harry, that was his purpose but when confronted with Lily and Dumbledore - he would need to secure his own oily behind ...
Now, sure he could go and kill Harry straight away but in that split moment, he would stand to be attacked by both Lily and Dumbledore ... we know Lily didnt have to die so it would appear like he may have concentrated his efforts on Lily - so now Dumbledore was faced with a choice .. does he try and attack Voldemort knowing Lily would die?
I think this would have yielded submission in Dumbledore - and would have lead to thinking time from Lily - this could be the pleading we hear from Dumbledore during the potion session - he is faced with a situation knowing someone is going to die and he cant do anything to prevent it ...
I can almost see Voldemort using Lily as a shield as he edges closer to Harry - he may even subdue Dumbledore while in submission and then Lily turns - Voldemort has to kill her and then turns to Harry ... the rest is still to be learnt ...
Wouldnt that almost make what happened on that tower in HBP even more significant - because it was like a replay to Dumbledore of what he had endured himself and this time around wasnt going to be left alive to deal with even more painful memories of not being able to do anything ... feeling like Harry under that cloak ...
Glumbumble
14-10-2006, 15:58
Being fairly new to this site this is the first time that I have come across this thread. Apologies if I repeat anything that has already been said.
I have always assumed that the drinker of the green liquid is being forced to relive the feelings of the children from the orphanage, Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop, who Tom Riddle tortured in that cave. I think that this may be done by incorporating one of Voldemort’s memories into the potion.
I think that when Voldemort wishes to make a Horcrux he selects a significant person, a significant vessel and a significant location to store the Horcrux.
The ring was hidden in the Gaunt cottage, the necklace in the cave where, possibly, he first tortured, the Diary, well I need to think about that, but it was located around the Chamber of Secrets.
To discover the remaining Horcruxes the location is as significant as the vessel.
I always just thought that the potion was like - as suggested before - a boggart in a cup, or liquid Dementor.
The analogy I came up with was a potion producing the exact opposite of the Mirror of erised. A potion that took a person to their worst nightmare
"The potion of eramthgin!"
Being fairly new to this site this is the first time that I have come across this thread. Apologies if I repeat anything that has already been said.
I have always assumed that the drinker of the green liquid is being forced to relive the feelings of the children from the orphanage, Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop, who Tom Riddle tortured in that cave. I think that this may be done by incorporating one of Voldemort’s memories into the potion.
I suspect you are correct in that this is a relived memory, but I don't think Voldemort would have wanted to share his with anyone else. So, if this is from the orphanage, then we must be seeing one of the children's memories (or a mix of them all). That could be...
But, I think that the spell utilizes Voldemort's powers of Legilimens and pulls up the memories straight out of the drinker's mind, in which case, the memory is that of Dumbledore.
In either case, we have the following clues:
1) The memory seems to be in third person
2) There are at least three people present ("Don't hurt them, don't hurt them...").
The second clue would seem to contradict the orphanage memory theory, since we think that only Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop were present.
Forgive me if there is a thread already on this, but i would like to discuss what everyone believes Dumbledore drank, and what his cries were about.
I am currently listening to this part of HBP, and had a thought.
Voldemort needed to kill people in order to fill the underground lake with Inferi.
From previous comments, I believe Voldemort only killed people he deemed worthy of him...if you know what i mean.
So...I think he had someone help him in this respect, to lure people to the cave. Remember he took the two orphans there, when he was younger?
Harry says the basin looked a bit like a pensieve...the contents glowed similarily to that of memories, although green.
What I think Dumbledore had to drink, was the stolen memories of the person responsible for luring the victims to the cave, and killing them. Cries of remorse, 'Make it stop', etc...
I can imagine that being forced to ingest such horrible memories would weaken a person greatly. Perhaps even, they were the memories of all the Inferi - including the person who led them there. I believe Voldemort would have killed that person, 'making it stop'.
the other thought i had, but it was a fleeting one, was that Dumbledore infected the contents whilst trying to extract the liquid by other means. i mean, had he just known to drink it out, the contents would have been harmless, but upon being tampered with, they became poisonous.
i would like to hear other's thoughts on this.
Glumbumble
26-10-2006, 03:03
I have always assumed that the drinker of the green liquid is being forced to relive the cries of the children from the orphanage, Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop, who Tom Riddle tortured in that cave. I think that this may be done by incorporating one of Voldemort’s memories into the potion.
Padma Patil
26-10-2006, 05:32
This is an interesting theory. I have just finished reading HBP last night and was wondering myself what it is exactly that Dumbledore had to drink. Because, while he was drinking it, he became weaker and weaker. But after the basin was empty he became a bit stronger as they went along. I mean he passed out after the stuff was gone, but then was able to get back up and preform a spell and fly on a broomstick. Admittedly though he was still weak when he was talking to Draco on top of the astronomy tower, but he was still gaining back strength.
I do like the idea that it is the memories of the inferi though. It seems appropriate for Voldemort, who feared death and dead bodies, to do that.
secret seeker
27-10-2006, 19:52
My first impression was that the green liquid is like a liquid boggart. Dumbledore in his minds eye probaly saw his worst fear, Hogwarts students being tortured or killed by death eaters, and he was talking to Voldemort, begging him to stop.
But speculation always leaves room for other opinions, so who knows except j.k.r.
I think Riddle would assume the wizard/witch would leave the cave without the locket rather than carry on reliving their worst fear.
Oh... padma.... I loved your " click me " to find out about Snape, I think we probaly know now what Snape has had to endure. Poor b****r.
Those are all good idea's - I like them a lot!
But still - I cant help but feel this runs deeper ... a lot deeper ...
Dumbledore went white when Harry told him he knew about Snape and what he did ... I wonder if the Dumbledore/Snape story isnt the only hidden truths in all of this ... Dumbledore was very sorry about something - and I suspect it could be third person as suggested but I am feeling pretty sure it has to do with Harry's parents ...
Hoggy Warty Hogwarts
30-10-2006, 20:24
Those are all good idea's - I like them a lot!
But still - I cant help but feel this runs deeper ... a lot deeper ...
Dumbledore went white when Harry told him he knew about Snape and what he did ... I wonder if the Dumbledore/Snape story isnt the only hidden truths in all of this ... Dumbledore was very sorry about something - and I suspect it could be third person as suggested but I am feeling pretty sure it has to do with Harry's parents ...
Yeah i think i would have to agree on that one i always thought it went deeper whenever i read the books but i wish i knew what it was between Dumbledore and Snape because it always seemed like we might get closer to it and then we dont find out, like when Dumbledore did get white i thought here we go were going to find out why he trusts Snape but then we didnt
jsez4444
15-11-2006, 00:27
I think this is the most interesting thread I have come across on this site. I really had wondered what was happening to DD when he was drinking the potion but I just assumed it was extreme physical pain. All of these theories seem like really great ideas but the one I see the most potential in is the one about him being present at Lily and James' murders. I absolutely think that he must be reliving a memory of his because I think that your worst memory will always cause more pain than somebody else's worst memory being replayed for you and whoever put the potion there (RAB or LV) knew that. I also think that on that point the person putting the potion there would not have known who was going to drink it so if they were going to put someone elses memory then they would have no idea who's memory might effect the drinker in the most painful way. That leads me to conclude that the memory is from the drinkers own mind and nobody else's.
Based on the dialogue it makes a lot of sense that he was there when it all happened, possibly under Jame's Invisibility Cloak. I also really like the idea that it is Snape or Pettigrew who is begging LV not to hurt Lily and Harry, personally I think it is more likely that it was Snape. There is that little theory out there that Snape was in love with Lily so when he realised the consequences of what he did he wanted it all back, he never wanted Lily to get hurt. This might also have been the reason he switched sides. If DD had seen Snape break down like this and then Snape had sworn to DD that he was switching allegiances this could be the reason that DD trusts him so exclusively too.
I don't think it could be DD himself pleading because if he was pleading with anyone who was an enemy of his and he told them to kill him I'm sure they would have, especially had it been LV seeing as how the only person he ever feared would have been giving up.
Now the only thing I can't quite get my mind around is that if DD was there he must have been incapacitated in some way for him to be unable to help. The question is who incapacitated him and why? Also if he had been incapacitated under the invisibility cloak (just like Harry in the tower,) LV must not have known he was there or he would have killed him. So it couldn't have been LV who did it, and assuming we think Snape was there I don't think it would have been him or LV probably would have known too since we also assume they came together to begin with. This leaves Lily, James, and himself (Harry technically but come on,) it is very possible that James could have done the same thing to DD that DD did to Harry in the tower but you would think that he would have appreciated the help from DD when he knew that LV was coming. I can't see anyone like Hagrid physically holding him back because he is too powerful and could easily have escaped using magic.
So the only thing I can come up with is that James, willingly stunned DD so that when LV came in he was out of harms way, he could not have been forced to or LV would have know. This only leaves the question as to why he did it.
There is still a lot to learn about this scene and what actually happened, but I think we may be getting closer.
I belive the incapacitation occured because Voldemort had the upper hand - maybe his wand pointed at Lily or Harry - Dumbledore could move but in doing so one of them would die ... as such Dumbledore was forced to just stand there and talk ...
I still like the premise of Dumbledore being there - and would explain why he had the cloak if indeed he was there - would be a nice little clue would it not?
And didnt JKR say that was one of the questions she was never asked ... maybe I am mistaken ...
But having that cloak ... and her comment about 'No - it was not Snape under the cloak' ... just screams the possibilities!
christina
29-11-2006, 15:28
yea the possibility of dumbledore bein incapacitated is an idea i like alot.it explains alot, such as how dumbledore had the cloak.but if dumbledore was incapacitated the words he said in the cave must have been others or possibly his own thoughts.-just a thouught.
secret seeker
01-12-2006, 19:34
Can you really see Dumbledore being incapacitated, if he didnt want to be?.
If Dumbledore was at the potters, his own sense of doing the right thing, and judgement, he would have more likely told the potters to escape with Harry while he duelled with Voldemort, than be immobilised and forced to watch.
Also, if Dumbledore was there, why did Hagrid bring him ( Harry ) to the dursleys, and not Dumbledore himself? surely the safety of a baby would have been paramount to Dumbledore? ( oh,..Ill just leave him for Hagrid to pick up? Yeah right ).
Also, we know that if a person is immobilised, the magic ceases to operate if they ( the caster ) are dead, James was killed at least 2/3 minutes before Lily, wouldnt Dumbledore have intervened in that time?.
Sorry, I just cant see Dumbledore at Godrics hollow on the night the potters were murdered. Not at all. And Jo herself has said Snape wasnt there. Maybe Regulus was hiding there, under the invisibility cloak, and the potters o.k.ed it because he was Sirius' brother?. Who knows.....
If Voldemort had a wand pointed at either of the Potters - Dumbledore would have known any move he made to save one would probably result in the death of the other - as such I belive he could have been left in a position where he was 'check mate' - i'm not saying he was paralysed more that he knew the next physical move he made would have resulted in a death ...
I'm just throwing idea's out here but that regret he was muttering is significant - and I relly believe it is linked back to that fateful night!
secret seeker
02-12-2006, 17:35
You are determined to believe he was there arent you!. Well, I dont know I just dont see it. I understand what you are saying, and even if D.D. was under an invisibility cloak, we know D.D. can see through them, so I imagine Voldemort would be able to too. If Voldemort killed James and then discovered Dumbledore there with Lily and Harry, its possible that D.D. was placed, as you say, in a checkmate position, but what then?, who made the first move?, if voldemort killed Lily, Dumbledore would have got him straight away, wouldnt he?, and, at that time, Harry was a marked baby, almost as good as dead, but D.D. had heard the full prophecy, so he wouldnt have been too concerned for Harry would he?....
Too many " what ifs..." for me.;)
I think I remember something I heard or read that on the night the Potters die that there was someone else there, perhaps it was Dumbledore via the time turner.and it is his panicked memory of not being able to stop voldermort and perhaps snape was able to bring dumbledore back before voldemort could kill him and this is why he trust him!
I'm sorry to do this ,and i know i shouldn't ,but shall we take a moment to campare what DD is saying here to what snape was saying to DD in the arguement earlier. HBP pg. 405 "Well--- I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he--- Snape didn' wan' ter do it anymore---" Now i know this spec is in other threads but once again i have to say that the 2 things are really close in context so we raise the question again. Is DD really dead?
secret seeker
19-01-2007, 18:43
Sorry Rebeus, I don't follow you, can you make that a bit clearer?...
Sir Cadogan
20-01-2007, 02:27
I agree with secret seeker - I don't get your point either, Rubeus.
Very generally, though, I must say: Guys, get a grip. I was also very sad about DD's departure - but we must accept that he's gone. JKR has said so, and she also confirmed that "he's not going to do a Gandalf" (those were her words, AFAIR), so forget about reappearances. DD is in his frame on the wall of the headmaster's office, and that's where we're going to see him - or maybe visiting in some other frame somewhere else. But never again in real life, as sad as that is.
I would seem that this should be a memory of Dumbledores particularly when he starts cowering, but this does not suit a man of his strength and stature who see death as the next great adventure. I think he is being force feed someone else's painful memory perhaps RAB and that event is what made him turn on Voldemort and go after the Horcrux in the first place.
Well rereading that part in the book I came across something Dumbledore said once they returned to the shore "One alone could not have done it" which leads me to believe who ever RAB is he had to have help, so someone out there knows what happened.
serophis
23-01-2007, 00:06
I think I see what you're saying...that Dumbledore and Snape had a plan, that would make Snape do something he would not want to do but was necessary.
I don't think that means Dumbledore is still alive though...I think that it is Snape's job to kill a dying Dumbledore (DD saying death is not to be feared makes it seem like he has spent a lot of time lately thinking about his own death), cementing Voldy's belief that Snape is on his side...such that at the very end, Snape can turn on him and defend Harry in some way.
I think that Snape will come back at the very end and knock Voldemort off guard. But whether you believe he is good or not, another question:
Do you think that Snape can survive the end of Book Seven?
I mean, he has killed Dumbledore. So say he is evil: He will be the most hunted death eater ever (providing Harry wins).
Or say he is good: Even if he and DD did have a plan, and even if he saves Harry's life at the end, he will seem as if he is simply lying to save himself, and weasel out of going to azkaban like he did the better part of two decades before. There is no redeeming him in the eyes of the wizarding world (or the Ministry for that matter), so even if he is good, I don't see a way for him to survive.
So what do you guys think? Whether Snape is good or evil, does he stand a chance of surviving past the final chapter of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows?
secret seeker
24-01-2007, 07:05
Not unless theres some concrete evidence that Snape had been working to bring down Voldemort the whole time, like a handwritten letter by Dumbledore explaing to the M.O.M. why Snape did what he did, might not justify murder, but would be seen as a bit of recompense.
Snape's a goner, I think. However, I do feel for him, coz he is what he is, by circumstance, and previous experiences.
Im not standing up for him, I think he did wrong and should be punished, but, at the same time, maybe if he is loyal to Dumbledore, he too realised the sacrifices needed to bring down Voldemort at all costs.
serophis
24-01-2007, 08:59
Yeah, it does seem that Snape's life is pretty much over in the near future. I think this is why he was so offended at being called a coward by Harry: He would likely spend the next hundred years being smeared and having his name run down by every good wizard who ever lived; he was the man who almost destroyed the wizarding world as we know it by killing the most beloved wizard, his own supposed friend.
I think they both realized this before it happened, but I think that Snape's initial reluctance and urge to turn back from the plan reflected on his hopes that they could find a better way, where Dumbledore manages to survive.
As far as a handwritten letter from Dumbledore, or even his picture itself trying to exhonerate him, this may be a possibility. However, I think that Jo may be setting Snape up to be the tragic sacrificial hero who may get recognition, but not until his death.
Seeker615
30-01-2007, 10:28
I am inclined to agree with some of the other posts that Dumbledore was reliving a very painful memory. We don't really know anything about his family other than that his brother likes goats...
Did something happen to his family that he indirectly caused?
My other thought is maybe he feels totally responsible for Voldy's rise to power. After all it was him who brought him to Hogwarts. He kept a watch on him but maybe he feels he didn't do enough to prevent Tom from becoming Voldemort.
There has to be an underlying reason why Dumbledore took on the good fight against Voldemort and before that Grindelwald.
Perhaps he was having a flashback to an event when he was younger - but I am still betting it has to do with the Potters ;)
I have always assumed that dumbledore was at the potters invisible, voldemort came and killed james, then lily, tried to kill harry and he was just there watching. He knew that since voldemort knew the prophecy that it had to be fulfilled and he had to mark harry as his equal. LV had to mark the one that would finish him in the end(although LV didnt know that part but DD did) So dd let lv kill the potters knowing that he would not be able to kill harry because he only could mark him as equal and have powers the dark lord has not. So when he drank the potion I think that he was re-living what he was thinking that night, and wishing that it didnt have to be that way-he could have stoped lv when he was young but didnt, and now a baby has to loose his parents and either grow up to be a murderer or be murdered...
On a nother note I like the RAB being an inferi post. And I dont think this has anything to do with the thread but you can message me with the answer...I was gone for a while and I cant seem to figure out what the DiE theory is?....Please help... :)
Sir Cadogan
24-02-2007, 14:37
I have always assumed that dumbledore was at the potters invisible, voldemort came and killed james, then lily, tried to kill harry and he was just there watching. He knew that since voldemort knew the prophecy that it had to be fulfilled
:eek:
I couldn't disagree more.
You are saying that Dumbledore stood by while two of his close friends were murdered? In my opinion, this is downright impossible. Such scheming coldbloodedness, for whatever higher purpose, can never have been Dumbledore's attitude.
Remember what Snape told the sisters about him: "He has to believe the best of people." (Chapter 'Spinner's End'). - But if somebody is as cynical and heartless as you take Dumbledore to be, he'll never think other people are less selfish than he himself is.
Re your question at the end of your post: The "DiE" theory would go along nicely with your post ;-) "DiE" stands for "Dumbledore is evil". :cool:
Sir Cadogan,
No No No I dont think that DD is evil LOL! I just think that he knew he had to do it for the wellbeing of mankind....or atleast wizardkind. Thanks for letting me in on the secret of the DiE. :)
Dr Winterbourne
28-02-2007, 07:06
I side with the theory that the potion forces you to relive your own worst memory; what you feel most guilty about.
I think that it is Dumbledore being forced to face - emotionally - the Machivellian decisions that he made in order to defeat Lord Voldemort.
Dumbledore is aware of the prophecy. He knows that it must be Harry (or Neville) that defeats the Dark Lord, and thus, he would, in cold blood, like a good general, allow others to die.
But perhaps he was not truly ready to actually see it happen - there in Godrics Hollow that night - possibly under the cloak, possibly not, he saw something which he rationalised as being necessary. But a part of him feels the weight of that choice.
So he deserved to die.
Thought #1
This is Dumbledores memory, but I believe it is from when he was young.
Perhapes he idolized Grindlewald thinking he was the greatest wizard of that time, when he realizes that Grindlewald is evil and tries to remove himself from the situation, at which time Grindlewald tortures young Albus and forces him to watch his family beening killed. This is why he spent the rest of his life fighting evil eventually defeating Grindlewald and becomes obsessed with defeating Voldemort.
This being his biggest regret for believing Grindlewald at the cost of his family and vowing to never let evil regine again.
Thought #2
Same as above except that in that time Dumbledores parents were the ones fighting Grindlewald, and as a child he witnessed their death. Then vowing revenge on Grindlewald. His regret is his of obsession to destroy Grindlewald that lead him to become a killer.
Sounds like a certain Dark Haired, spectacled, scarred boy we know!
Seeker615
19-06-2007, 07:58
Someone on another site thought possibly that guilt is what was in that basin. The drinker is forced to remember anything that they felt guilty towards.
I guess that is possible - after all it would appear Voldemort has little regret in anything he does - as such he could drink that all day and not feel any ill effect.
I suppose it reminds me of the same argument about the room in DoM in OoTP - filled with love .... how do you take such an emotion and place it into a room?
Something has to personify the emotion to be able to harness it and lock it away - I guess this potion could be the personification of guilt - liquid guilt just like liquid luck - but it cant be guilt itself.
There is no doubt it was meant to disable the drinker - in that case I would argue perhaps it is liquid fear - in this case the fear lead to guilt?
It started with Dumbledore acting scared ...
Sirius Potter Fan
25-06-2007, 13:21
perhaps it is liquid fear - in this case the fear lead to guilt?
It started with Dumbledore (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1299#) acting scared ...
I like that Alz . . . I hadn't thought in that direction but it does make quite a bit of sense. We have spent so much time trying to figure out what had happened to DD that caused him so much anguish. We had assumed he was reliving something. but what if . . . like a bogart, the potion causes the drinker to see, feel, experience their worst fears. Dumbledore certainly fears what harm may come to Harry and the others in the quest that is before them. Seeing that quest end in their pain or destruction would indeed cause him most considerable anguish. hmmm . . . I'm liking it!
It appeared somewhat logical to me that if you want to 'disable' someone, then fear is a good tactic. Look for someone's worse fears and most of the time if it is a real dark fear, they wont overcome it but instead be consumed by it. There if course is that element of the potion that makes the drinker thirsty and as such, has to dip into the inferi soaked water, I suppose that is yet again another side effect.
Everyone has regrets but the best way to bring it out is to look at their fears - I think that is what happened to Dumbledore.
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