Snape is Evil

[Weasleyfanforever]

OK, in order to maintain some sort of order on this subject, the staff has decided to split the discussions on Snape's goodness/evilness into two seperate threads, much like the "Dumbledore is Evil" or "Dumbledore is Good" threads. These will be the only threads where the questions of Snape's loyalties and his goodness or evilness will be discussed. You may discuss other aspects of Snape on the site, such as his motivations, his childhood, etc; but if it deals with where his loyalties lie, it will be in the thread it's subject pertains to.

Also, we ask that you put as much thought, and canon research in your posts as possible. "Because I don't like him" or "Because I think so" posts will be removed.

We look forward to you bringing forth all the information you can to prove your own points! :D

[Alz]

While I dont think Snape is evil - I always like to play devil's advocate on these things and will try a few 'EVIL' comments ...

Snape comes from an upbringing and also youth that would certainly help model him to an evil path ...
We saw the flashbacks at what looked like him cowering away as his father launch mental abuse on his mother...
The of course - at school he wasnt exactly Mr Popular ... he drew attentions about himself with his love of Dark Arts and also being spotty etc - I have this vision of Goth Snape for some reasons ...
He tried to fight back with the likes of James but instead turned himself into a victim .. and endured bullying to the level he was almost killed ...

All of this pushed him towards the path he walked - becoming a Death Eater and making himself feel big and strong by being part of a tyrants gang ...
There is no doubts he would have caused death along his path - no matter how short it was and of course -
He is also a very convincing liar ... that still leaves us all in the 'is he isnt he' arguments that now have 2 dedicated threads ...
And at the end of the day - he did kill Dumbledore ... no matter what - murder is evil and it splits the soul ... he also used an Unforgivable Curse ...

Balance and all you understand ;)

[Fortescue]

Notice how slow these good/evil threads are coming on. I think HBP really confused everyone completely about what Snape really is. :rolleyes:

Snape had all the opportunity to dupe Dumbledore. If he is indeed evil it would go along with the comments made in the hospital wing near the end of the book:

"Snape was a highly accomplished Occlumens," said Lupin, his voice uncharacteristically harsh. "We always new that." (HBP, pg 615)

The possibility was presented that Snape was fooling Dumbledore all along. Snape told Narcissa and Bellatrix the only thing that kept him out of Azkaban was Dumbledore's word that he had changed and that he had been spying for the Order - if he left Hogwarts and went back to Voldemort, Azkaban was bound to be his home eventually.

[Alz]

You are right - and this is also the beauty of Snape's part in the series!
People have always been guessing which side Snape sits on ... and looks like that continues into book 7 and the end of the series ...

You know many people, who had gotten over the death etc think it is an open and shut case in both instances - him being good or evil ... but I really dont think it is ..
JKR has placed enough doubts in everyone that I dare anyone to be 100% sure!

You can still look at everything Snape has said and done to this point as being outright evil.
In fact, if you really look into HBP you will be hard pushed to split it ... I mean Spinner's End he gave a much different complexion tham even I could have guessed ... and parts of that chapter still haunt my mind when I feel so sure Snape really is good.

[Piper]

Here is my theory:

Dumbledore trusted Snape because Snape gave him information on the horcruxes. Remember that Dumbledore had destroyed the ring before Harry got the memory from Slughorn. Before Slughorn was even hired. Snape must have tipped him off, first the ring, then he told Dumbledore of the locket in the cave. Dumbledore tells us in THBP that Snape gave him an antidote and saved his life after he destroyed the ring horcrux, and he asked for Snape after returning from the cave, for another antidote, obivously. Dumbledore felt that Snape's helping him to destroy the horcruxes was definate proof that he was not a follower of Voldermort. He was correct, but.............

We have been led to wonder, is Snape evil and behind Voldermort, or good and behind Dumbledore, and which one has he fooled. I think that he has managed to fool BOTH of them will be the catch. Or he had fooled Dumbledore, and is in the process of completely fooling Voldermort.

There is every chance that he did not know of the plan for Malfoy to kill Dumbledore before the meeting with Bellatrix and Narcissia. Taking the unbreakable vow was not a problem for someone who didn't mind killing Dumbledore. Remember that the timing was not under his control as Malfoy would not give details of the plan to bring in the Death Eaters. Snape was as surprised as anyone when it all came down. He would have prefered for more horcruxes to have been destroyed before the showdown.

As it stands now, everyone is thinking if Snape is Evil, Dumbledore must be dead, If the plot is that Snape wants to be the Dark Lord and rule alone, don't be surprised to see Dumbledore really alive, because JKR has really left it wide open for that to happen.

consider this passage from The Goblet of Fire:

Pg 695: The phoenix let out one soft, quavering note. It shivered in the air, and Harry felt as though a drop of hot liquid had slipped down his throat into his stomach, warming him, and stregnthning him.

So it is not just the tears of the Phoenix that can heal, but also the song. We were told about an awful lot of Phoenix singing.

And we do not know what Dumbledore drank in the cave. It could be that Snape THOUGHT he knew, THOUGHT Dumbledore drank something that Snape himself had put there years ago, but instead, R.A.B refilled the basin with a different potion, something regarding love, as he would have wanted to hurt Voldermort, who he was expecting to return for the real locket. Love, because as we were told,(TGOF) the only person who has ever survived the Avada Kadavra curse is Harry, and it was because of Lily's love for him.

I noticed that Slughorn was not mentioned during any of the fighting after the Death Eaters showed up, was not mentioned as fighting anyone when Harry was chasing the Death Eaters away, and remember, he had the powerful venom from Argog, Hagrids spider, so that could end up being of some significance.

We were not told of the significance of Olivander's disappearence, or of the significance of Nellville having probably the last wand that he made.

Also we do not know for certain that Snape is half muggle, we are only told that his mother married a muggle, and he was born later. JKR might pull a Star Wars ending and tell us that Voldermort himself is really the father of Snape, HA

I definately think R.A.B is Reglus Black. There are too many ties to that family to bring in a new character.

Ok that is all for me on this one.


GOOD HUFFLEPUFF SHE TOOK THE REST
The Sorting Hat pg 205, The Goblet Of Fire

[Mr.Prongs]

Even if Voldemort is Snape's father, Snape would still be half blood. Voldemorts father was muggle, wasn't he?

[Piper]

Na he would have been a quarter-muggle, that was kind of tongue in cheek anyway.

It WOULD fit perfectly to make Snape a secret half-brother to Harry's father James though, one on the outside looking in to a charmed life, growing up so resentful because he was stuck with a lousy muggle father while his real father raised James who had everything going for him etc. Denied his birthright , We haven't been told much of James's parentage either.

[Boing]

What we have been told, though, is that James's parents don't figure into the storyline and that they simply died of natural wizard causes. So I don't think that there will be a twist involving them.

As for Voldemort being Snape's dad, JKR has also told us that Voldemort doesn't have any children . . .

Spinner's End was disturbing, Blaise. I agree. But, there were parts there where I thought I could read hesitation - like when he was agreeing to the Unbreakable Vow and Narcissa asked if he would agree to finish the job for Malfoy if Malfoy couldn't do it himself. I thought he kind of paused . . . but, maybe that was just my imagination.

It is sort of strange that he has been so dead set against Harry this whole time and takes immense pleasure in seeing him in trouble. But I'm not on the Snape is Completely Evil train yet - maybe a tiny bit evil, but not completely evil! :D

[Piper]

Ok, my theory about Snape wanting to take over shot out of the water, JKR says:

JKR: Yeah, it's after the 15th rereading when you have spots in front of your eyes that you start seeing clues about Snape being the Lord of Darkness. So, there are things I shut down just because I think, well, don't waste your time, there's better stuff to be debating

[kashlie]

I also read hesitation in Snape during the vow making. That could go either way though - defy the dark lord? or kill dumbledore?

I am thinking Snape is evil at heart, but has something that keeps him on the side of good. Maybe he really did switch sides, but the temptation was too much in the end?
Sectumsempra? That is evil.

I see all the evidence in front of me, that Snape is evil. HBP is all about it. But isn't that too obvious?
Then there is Wormtail. He'd be quick to let Voldemort know if Snape wasn't loyal, despite how terrified he is of Snape.

[Piper]

I see all the evidence in front of me, that Snape is evil. HBP is all about it. But isn't that too obvious?


See, I was thinking it would be too obivous if it turned out that Snape and Dumbledore both knew that Dumbledore was dying, so they decided that Snape might as well save himself, since he did take the unbreakable vow, and kill Dumbledore.

That theory is everywhere now, and I was just thinking it has to be something else, it can't be something that everyone could guess so quickly.

[Mr.Prongs]

Na he would have been a quarter-muggle, that was kind of tongue in cheek anyway.

But you have to remember, even if you had a grandparent that was a muggle, that meant that you were still half blood.

[Piper]

In Goblet of Fire, (The Death Eaters, pg 648 US Edition) Voldermort says:

"And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?"

In other places in the book, Dumbledore makes references saying he does not believe Voldermort told anyone else about his horcruixes,

(Horcruxes pg 501)
"And I thought I knew what that meant, though the Death Eaters did not."

(Horcruxes pg 508)

"Of Course, Lucius did not know what the diary really was"

(The Cave pg 569)
"Do Not forget that Lord Voldermort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes"

We know that Snape was giving Dumbledore his other information most likely, for instance:

(HBP Horcruxes pg 508 US Edition)

"...but he was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy. When Voldermort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold" then further down he says:

"Of Course, Lucius did not know what the diary really was. I understand that Voldermort had told him the Diary would cause the Chamber of Secrets to reopen because it was cleverly enchanted"

I think it's reasonable to assume here that Snape lied to Dumbledore concerning how much information Voldermort had actually given the Death Eaters concerning the Horcruxes.

[Alz]

I think Snape took the part of double agent every seriously and never fielded more information that needed to both parties ... as such it made him an invaluable asset to both parties ..

If he could have been attributed to have provided solid evidence to one party or another - his tenure as double agent would have been over - give the wrong information to either side - too much information - then he would have been outed ...

As such this is a legit reason for evil as well as good - because Snape is the only person on both sides that has the full picture ... doesn't that make him more powerful than both the men he represented?
Power corrupts - what if this was his design - cause both other parties to eradicate themselves so he can stand forward ... after all he was very much like Voldemort, Half Blood etc

[Piper]

Other things about my theory have changed, but the basic premise has not, I think Snape wants total control, and has been playing both ends against each other.

If this is the case, he would have certainly tried to destroy horcruxes himself, maybe he succeeded in destroying one or more, I don't think he had visited the Cave, but I think he knew details about the potion in the cave.

Certainly he could have sent Dumbledore there, thinking the potion would kill him, and eliminate the need for Malfoy to try to kill Dumbledore and Fail. He was backed into a corner with the Vow, he would have preferred to not have to blow his cover that way. I really think RAB changed the potion though. And I like the idea that the lone Inferi was RAB.

It's true that he did save Dumbledore's life after the ring turned his hand black, BUT we can only guess the timeline on that, it very well could have been before Narcissa and Bellatrix came to him. I believe Snape only read Narcissa's mind about the plan for Malfoy to kill Dumbledore, that he lied when he said Voldermort had already told him. Because if Voldermort had let Snape in on the secret, he would have insisted that Malfoy give Snape information, Malfoy was clearly not under those orders.

As for why Snape didn't kill Harry at the end, or allow the others to kill him, it would be in Snape's best interest for the lines of this theory if Harry lived and figured out how to destroy more Horcruxes.

Snape hasn't lost any love for Harry, but he doesn't see Harry as a big threat to his overall plan, he only said, "Blocked again and again Potter until you learn to close your mind' to Jeer at Harry, since he believes Harry cannot block his mind.

[The Frozen North]

OK, let's see if I can marshal my thoughts on this one as they are not but a few and it's not always easy to put ones thoughts into words. Firstly I would like to say that the main reason I have for believing that Snape is evil is an impression, it's just too easy, nice and convenient to say that he's good and was just acting on DD's orders, this type of theory is too obvious and belongs more in the world of Enid Blighton, we'd all love for DD to be infallible and deep down I think we all want to believe the best in people, despite us not all having DD's courage of convictions.

Now to my more solid arguments.
As I have already stated in "The Death" thread, Avada Kadavra can not be cast without really meaning it, Harry tried to cast an unforgivable spell against Bellatrix in OOTP and was unsuccessful as he did not have sufficient malice in him, despite his anger and hatred towards her.

It has also been argued that Snape is not necessarily evil as killing someone does not make you evil, Harry himself must kill Voldermort if he is to survive but this argument is just futile. Regardless of religious belief I think all will agree that the morale values of our society have been formed from religious belief, either our own or our forefathers. Scriptural study shows us many examples of evil people being killed for the good of the many or for the defence of the innocent. The death of Voldermort (assuming it happens) is necessary for the continuation of wizarding kind and the safety of humankind - historically see Adolf Hitler (incarceration may well have worked if Hitler had been captured but I don't think any gaol could hold Voldermort, if Sirius managed to escape I'm sure he would too). Additionally, when explaining Horcruxes to Riddle, Slughorn says "-the supreme act of evil. By committing murder". From this information I contend that the act of murder is evil but not the act of killing, if justified and by definition Avada Kadavra is murder, it has to be meant.

Many people have asked why Snape defended Harry in PS if he is evil. I dismiss this argument as irrelevant, at this point he had no way of knowing his master was trying to return and was only doing what any Hogwarts teacher was required to do.

Also remember that despite not hearing the entire prophecy, Snape knows that Harry really is a threat to Voldermort and has done his utmost to try and curb his development as a wizard, including several attempts to get Harry expelled, which, on leaving his Aunts home (or turning 17) would leave him quite defenceless should Voldermort have returned (which of course we now know he has). If Snape was really "good" he would not have let his dislike of James (or indeed Harry himself) interfere with Harry's development. The importance of this could not have been lost on Snape as despite his many failings he is a powerful and intelligent wizard.

I don't, however, credit much to the arguments about Snape creating evil spells as a child / youth being evidence of him being evil. Just look at the world around us and think back to your own time at school. Kids can be "evil little gits", bullying and generally making other's lives miserable (and just look how James and Sirius treated Snape) and yet the majority of these "evil little gits" develop into quite normal adults.

I have so many more thoughts on this subject but I don't know that I can do them justice in writing so for now I'll leave it at this.

[Alz]

I suppose to add a little here to what was a great post before :o

Snape also boasted that he passed information from the Order than lead to a killing ..

The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance ...

Of course you could argue this was him claiming credit ... but still all the same :)

[Piper]

Emmaline Vance! Whoa, I can't believe we have all missed this one until now. And true, it really doesn't tell us anything, he could just be taking credit where credit isn't due, just as well as not. She was double careful in this one not to give us anything solid really.


Also remember that despite not hearing the entire prophecy, Snape knows that Harry really is a threat to Voldermort and has done his utmost to try and curb his development as a wizard, including several attempts to get Harry expelled,

At the end of PoA, he was so angry that he couldn't get Harry and Co Expelled, and kill Sirius that he let it 'slip' that Lupin was a warewolf, thus causing him to have to resign. Lots of malice with Snape.

If you consider that probably James did strip him naked in front of a crowd that day, that could explain some of the resentment toward Harry, who looks like James so much. But throughout the series, Snape is been horrible to Nelville also, to the point that he was Nelville's worst fear. And can a teacher who would be that mean to poor Nelville be any good at all?

Buckbeak attacked Snape on his way to the gates, why would he have done that if Snape really had Harry's best interest at heart?

[Piper]

A few more thoughts on Snape:

I just noticed this, in Spinner's End, when Snape takes credit for the capture of Emmaline Vance, he also says that the information that he provided helped lead to the death of Sirius, than adds that he gives Bellatrix credit for finishing him off!

Dumbledore believes that Kreature the elf was the one who gave that information, interestingly he believes that Kreature went to Narcissa's home. And here we have Narcissa and Bellatrix not calling Snape on this. Not saying, "Hey Kreature gave us that information!"

Later in this chapter, Snape reminds them that it was Voldermort who sent him to spy on Dumbledore in the first place, sent him to Hogwarts. Ordered him.

Another thing is the Potions book, Snape knows that Harry has it, because of the attack on Draco, but he does not follow through and make Harry turn it in. At the end of the book, they all speculate that this is because Snape didn't want Dumbledore to associate him with such a piece of dark magic. But if he were in fact good, and not evil, he wouldn't have minded, right?

[Alz]

I know it can also been seen in both lights - but when Harry called Snape a coward, the way JKR describes him it is pure evil and malice in Snape's expression and speech.
I really think that could be seen as a strong indicator on Snape - the fact that no matter what else happened and can be read 2 ways - the way he reacts to being called a coward is pretty chilling ... he even breaks his cool and attacks Harry at this point ...

[halliemei]

Regarding Snape's claim about helping get Sirius for the DEs -- he did goad Sirius ALL THE TIME. Harry says so clearly in chaper 37 of OotP. But we do know about Kreacher's behavior in the same chapter.

Page832, US Hardback


"The Malfoys -- undoubtedly on Voldemort's instructions -- had told him he must find a way of keeping Sirius out of the way once you had seen the vision of Sirius being tortured. Then, if you decided to check whether Sirius was at home or not, Kreacher would be able to pretend he was not. Kreacher injured Buckbeak the hippogriff yesterday, and at the moment when you made your appearance in the fire, Sirius was upstairs trying to tend to him."
There seemed to be very little air in Harry's lungs, his breathing was quick and shallow.
"And Kreacher told you all this . . . and laughed?" he croaked.
"He did not wish to tell me," said Dumbledore. "But I am a sufficiently accomplished Legilimens myself to know when I am being lied to and I -- persuaded him -- to tell me the full story, before I left for the Department of Mysteries."

First of all, what do you want to bet he gained a memory from Kreacher, much like he did the memories we saw in HBP? Second, this tells me that Kreacher and Snape each played a part in getting Sirius to the MoM that night and both can take their own credit. But I do trust Kreacher's story here more than Snape's. After all, DD is a great Legilimens, but there is NO CANNON to say that Bella or Cissy are. Snape had just told them that VM wouldn't necessarily tell them everything. They wouldn't question Snape's version of events for that night, in any case. Just my opinion, of course.

[Piper]

halliemei,

I don't doubt Kreature, but what I am trying to say here is that Snape is admitting to knowing of the plan , to lure Sirius and Harry to the MoM that night, when she asks, "Where were you while we were fighting" he does not claim not to have known of the plan, he says that he was ordered to stay behind. When he takes credit for getting Sirius killed, she does not say, "Everything we knew we knew from Kreature", which would have been the case if what Dumbledore thought were true. Because Bellatrix called Snape on everything else. Because they know exactly what information Kreature provided, and how useful it was to the plan, because Kreature came to them personally. This isn't something Snape could take credit for having not done.

Dumbledore believed that once Harry gave Snape the message in Umbridge's office, that Snape had no idea what was going on, other than what he had just gotten from harry. From it, he happened to conclude that they were faking Harry out, even though Harry was right when he saw Arthur Weasley attacked.

Dumbedore believed that Snape then had to contact Sirius to see if he was at headquarters.

Dumbledore believed that Snape told Sirius to stay behind.

Look at the timeline here. In the time it took Snape to allegedly contact Sirius, and contact the Order members who were already at the MoM, Hermonie and Harry had gotten Umbridge convinced to go into the Forbidden Forest, met the Centurs, did the whole thing with them, and Hagrid's brother, returned to the castle, rounded up the gang, ridden Thistles to the MoM, and been fighting death eaters for a while.

Dumbledore believed that Snape stayed behind to check the Forbidden Forest for Harry and Hermonie. We know that Snape was ordered by Voldermort to stay behind.

We know from Spinners End that Snape was lying to Dumbledore. It just takes awhile to get it all unraveled.