Voldemort and the Avada Kedavra

[George]

Okay.
This thought has just occurred to me. I hope it has not been analysed in some other forum... if it has, I sincerely apologise.
JKR refused to say whether or not there was anyone there at Godric's Hollow the night Harry's parents died. What if the Avada Kedavra curse never bounced off Harry? What if Harry merely took it in, without sustaining any damage but the scar! Similarly, could someone have cursed Voldemort behind his back. There could have been another person standing behind Voldemort, who nobody knew about... what if, after Voldemort did the AK on Harry, that person tried to kill Voldemort by the AK? It is a possibility that has not, as far as I am aware, been analysed! It could be, that Voldemort was nearly murdered by someone who no-one yet knows about. What does the community think?

[Boing]

This is being analyzed in a few other posts, but not all together, so I think this is a nice place to do that - thanks for bringing it all together.

I don't think anyone has ever postulated that the curse didn't bounce off Harry as every time JKR mentions it, she talks about how it rebounded. She has never left that open to interpretation - it has always been discussed as something that rebounded off Harry, leaving the scar, and goes back to Voldemort.

There are a few threads out there talking about how Voldemort might not have been the only one there - and there are several nice suggestions as to who it could have been . . . Snape, Dumbledore, Wormtail, etc.

[Alz]

I once speculated that indeed Snape was there and performed a spell on Voldemort at the same time he attacked Harry ... it lead to much debate :p

I think we have a contridiction we need to sort out first - JKR wrote that the killing curse cannot be blocked ... yet what happened in the MoM with Voldemort versus Dumbledore would suggest otherwise ...
Because of this - it is possible now to look at a possible block attempt - a deflection attempt even ...

JKR once said everyone wants to know why Harry survived - she said the question should be how come Voldemort didnt die - well we have this answer in part now right ...
So, indeed was that the significance of the event - the reason the spell backfired was just simply Lily's sacrifice and the reason Voldemort didnt die was because a Horcrux saved him?
In essence, the final Horcrux in this case was Voldemort right?
Afterall it was called into play as he was removed from his body - his soul was ripped from his body ...
Does this mean he used his own, last Horcrux?
Once he re-birthed was he able to create another, self, personal Horcrux?

I take JKR on her word on this - the shape of the scar isnt the most intersting thing about it - Voldemort lived because he activated a Horcrux ...
Sad isnt it ... it has to be more complex than that right ;)

[Fortescue]

JKR hinted in a recent interview that someone else might have been there that night. Or, I should say, someone asked her the question of whether someone else was there that night, and she said she couldn't answer. So I take that to mean there was or she would have said no, (unless she just likes causing us painful boils and welts and sleepless nights.) :)

Anyway, I like the idea that the curse didn't rebound, but according to JKR it did so I'm not going to argue with her. I too think that the curse that shot back at Voldemort was not exactly the curse that he shot at Harry, but something more to do with his protection from Lily. It was obviously not only a rebounded AK because of the damage done to both parties. AK leaves no marks, she has made a big point of this, yet both of them were marked.

[Hermione]

Perhaps someone was there who weakened the curse so it did leave a mark. I think the fact that it is markless symbolizes how advanced it is. It's a "clean" curse, so mess. But when slightly messed with, it created a disaster zone and a scar.

[Alz]

It was obviously not only a rebounded AK because of the damage done to both parties. AK leaves no marks, she has made a big point of this, yet both of them were marked.
JKR also said it couldnt be blocked ;)
In defence of the 'it doesn't leave a mark' ... when it is 'deflected' like in the MoM - it smashed statues to pieces ... as such if it isnt a 'clean hit' then anything is possible mon ami :p
We also asked how the Potters house was destroyed and I remember someone saying it was the deflected spell ... so goes to show - when spells go bad - rip up the rule book :D

[Hermione]

JKR also said it couldnt be blocked ;)
In defence of the 'it doesn't leave a mark' ... when it is 'deflected' like in the MoM - it smashed statues to pieces ... as such if it isnt a 'clean hit' then anything is possible mon ami :p
We also asked how the Potters house was destroyed and I remember someone saying it was the deflected spell ... so goes to show - when spells go bad - rip up the rule book :D

Not only how was the Potter's house destroyed but how was all the other places he killed destroyed? He know the DEs were responsible for some of it, but all of it? Could they have ransacked on purpose to cover evidence?

[Fortescue]

JKR also said it couldnt be blocked ;)
In defence of the 'it doesn't leave a mark' ... when it is 'deflected' like in the MoM - it smashed statues to pieces ... as such if it isnt a 'clean hit' then anything is possible mon ami :p
We also asked how the Potters house was destroyed and I remember someone saying it was the deflected spell ... so goes to show - when spells go bad - rip up the rule book :D

But if the Avada Kedavra can't be blocked how could it be deflected - that's the same thing isn't it? I can see if they were shooting spells at each other and ducking them in turn, there might be damage to the house from that, but if James and Voldemort were shooting up the house downstairs, why would Lily just go upstairs and wait for Voldemort. Why didn't she Dissaparate to a different location and take Harry with her. She'd have to know that James would eventually succumb to Voldemort - why stay there and wait to die?

[Alz]

But if the Avada Kedavra can't be blocked how could it be deflected - that's the same thing isn't it?
It certainly is - the point didn't go un-noticed ...
I think I rather clumsily tried to show that in the post ...
JKR went to lengths to say it couldn't be blocked, deflected etc - but yet the only contradiction I could find to that was the MoM - where is seemed Dumbledore was doing just that!
The whole Harry/Voldemort thing really used to screw with my mind until OoTP - at that point I realised if JKR was right - then that scene in OoTP was wrong - over visa versa!

Trying to scramble back on topic - the possibility exists that Voldemort could have had his AK spell interrupted - be it indirectly or directly ... now then that does fuel speculations - some that I was always shot down on before based on the 'unblock, deflect' wasn't possible :p

[Sirius Potter Fan]

In the MoM, the AK spells weren't deflected but simple hit other things first, they didn't rebound, just destroyed what they hit. I don't think they are like heat seaking mistles that lock on to a target and will follow the target, they are just cast at the target and fly straight, and things can be placed in their way, or one can duck if one is quick enough.

However, I like the idea of Snape being there. . . having asked Voldemort to spare Lily, ariving too late, Lily is dead, Voldemort attacks Harry just as Snape, furious with him, attacks Voldemort. The spell Voldemort cast, is absorbed in Harry (perhaps) Harry then retains some of Voldemort's powers. Only problem hee with me is, I believe that it was Pettigrew that was there, and retrieved Voldemort's wand. in that case Pettigrew would have known of Snapes presence and told Voldemort what happened.

[kashlie]

yes as i remember, DD was protecting himself using the fountain of bretheren...which in itself is symbolic i think...(would Dumbledore really allow these creatures to die for him?)

my other thought is if love is what protected Harry, then why is he the only survivor?

there have to be others who have died to save their loved ones.

back on topic...
how did love protect harry? could lily have used a charm, in the hope that passing on her love would protect harry? voldemort underestimated the oldest of magic, which means to mean that others may have known it could protect a person.

voldemort may have realised too late that lily had used this old magic, and may not have completed the AK properly, so it all went wrong?

[Alz]

I think the ultimate clue in this is 'old magic' ...
I have issues with the love thing based on one thing - Voldemort himself understood later on this was old magic - if it was love - he doesn't know love - JKR has said that ... as such he shouldn't have recognised it no? :confused:
I don't think for a second that old magic could not be emotional - but I wonder how Voldemort was able to validate it if it was ... ummm

[Fortescue]

I think another clue is the fact that Slughorn kept telling Harry how good Lily was at Potions. It seems like an odd time, the next to the last book, for this information about Lily to come out if it didn't mean anything. We already deduced she was good at charms because of what Mr. Ollivander told Harry. What if Lily gave Harry a dose of Felix before the attack?? If you can't block Avada Kedavra maybe you can be lucky enough to not be killed by it.

[Alz]

What if Lily gave Harry a dose of Felix before the attack?? If you can't block Avada Kedavra maybe you can be lucky enough to not be killed by it.
You know what - that is great!
Think about at the end of HBP and the DE's fighting - Didnt Hermione and co comment that the curses just seemed to keep missing them?
You know what - I LIKE IT :D

[Fortescue]

Lily knew that if Voldemort found them there was no chance to fight him and win. I don't think they would have made the connection regarding her sacrifice being something that would protect Harry from death prior to the attack. Since she was good at charms, and now we know she was good at potions, she probably did all she could to protect her son prior to the attack.

Think about it. Harry survived the Avada Kadavra and then was lucky enough to be pulled out of the destroyed house by Hagrid. Even if Harry was saved from death by his mother's sacrifice, he had to have a bit more luck to survive the destroyed house and be rescued from it before it fell down around him.

[Alz]

.. and of course would explain why we had such a bizarre potion being introduced so late on.
It was used to good effect - and perhaps it's inclusion was to get Slughorn to hand over his memory - but I wonder ... did JKR squeeze that in there for bigger things?
I mean - you are right - Harry was saved - Voldemort all but killed ... house destroyed, people aware - Harry rescued and saved ...
What if - just maybe that is the protection that keeps Harry safe - that one of the things Dumbledore or something that happened that night made it so that if Harry ever came up against Voldemort - he would always be lucky and thus each time he met him he was triumphant?
Just a thought :D

[Sirius Potter Fan]

.. and of course would explain why we had such a bizarre potion being introduced so late on.
It was used to good effect - and perhaps it's inclusion was to get Slughorn to hand over his memory - but I wonder ... did JKR squeeze that in there for bigger things?
I mean - you are right - Harry was saved - Voldemort all but killed ... house destroyed, people aware - Harry rescued and saved ...
What if - just maybe that is the protection that keeps Harry safe - that one of the things Dumbledore or something that happened that night made it so that if Harry ever came up against Voldemort - he would always be lucky and thus each time he met him he was triumphant?
Just a thought :D

wow, that is confusing and interesting at the same time :) It does seem, as even Harry himself said in OotP that he has been lucky each time that he escaped Voldemort. But I just don't think that they would/could have put a spell or potion on Harry ahead of time in anticipation of an attack, otherwise, why the fidelius, if he was already protected. and remember, that even Lily didn't know that by giving her life for Harry that even with her dead it would continue to protect him. I think we still just don't have enough information on just what happened that night to know why Harry wasn't buried in rubble, for one, I have never realy understood just why everything blew up in the first place, unless it was the force of the rebounded spell. I suppose though, that if the house wasn't really large and only one level, the force would have blown everything outward and away from Harry.

[Fortescue]

.. and of course would explain why we had such a bizarre potion being introduced so late on.
It was used to good effect - and perhaps it's inclusion was to get Slughorn to hand over his memory - but I wonder ... did JKR squeeze that in there for bigger things?
I mean - you are right - Harry was saved - Voldemort all but killed ... house destroyed, people aware - Harry rescued and saved ...
What if - just maybe that is the protection that keeps Harry safe - that one of the things Dumbledore or something that happened that night made it so that if Harry ever came up against Voldemort - he would always be lucky and thus each time he met him he was triumphant?
Just a thought :D


Another thing that sort of clicks with this idea - why would Lily not fight Voldemort to the death? Why would she just stand there and let herself be killed and not do something with her wand to defend her son? It seems that maybe she did it for the same reason Dumbledore did. She placed protections on Harry so he couldn't be killed and then willingly gave her life for him so that he could go on to do what he was destined to do. There can be no other reason why a talented witch like Lily would not stand and fight for her son's life unless she was sure he wouldn't die. As the story reads - James fought Voldemort while he told Lily to take Harry and run. She was alone with Harry before Voldemort finished off James. She had time do things to protect Harry so the AK wouldn't harm him.

[Sirius Potter Fan]

ONly thing is here, I know I read somwehere, that 1 Lily did not know that what she did would protect Harry, and 2, it was the fact that Voldemort gave her the chance to step aside and she chose not to that actually triggered the protection. Also if she knew Harry was protected from something she had done, why not just aparate out of there? or better yet while James was fighting, why not aparate somewhere else to hide with Harry?

[kashlie]

;) if Harry was given Felix before Voldemort attacked, then it must have worn off soon after, being left with the Dursley's and all...or it wore off after they took him in, coz they could have just dumped him.

I think Lily might have known what her sacrifice would do. Voldemort says himself he forgot about the strength of the oldest magic. Lily seems like the kind of person who would know about something like that. Even if she wasn't sure that it would protect him, she knew about the prophecy ( i think) which meant she knew why Voldemort was there. She couldn't stand by and watch Voldemort kill her son.
The other thing too, I don't think the prophecy took into account that Voldemort had horcruxes. Had he not had them, he would have been destroyed that night, and the prophecy complete.
I think a lot of planning went into protecting the two possibilities, with the help of Dumbledore, and it might have come up that they'd have to die to protect him.
The AK rebounded because of the prophecy, and Voldemort was supposed to die...

[Alz]

ES: And James didn't.

JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer.

MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry?

JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen.

MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] -

JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular way.

JKR elludes to the fact that Lily would have no idea that what she did protected Harry or would let him live ...
What is interesting - notice what she says about AK - no-one had ever survived and also that usually a person isnt given the choice to stand aside or die ... that is the clue there ...
We are all asking what could she have done to deserve such an offer - it looks like the most important part is the fact she had the offer ....
I think, given that - that perhaps AK doesnt like the free-will aspect - it is usually curse at someone with no choice on their fate ... ummm

[Piper]

First I want to say that I just LOVE the theory that it was someone else there that night and not the rebounding of the Avada Kadavra curse that almost killed voldermort. It could sure explain how Hagrid showed up in time to save Harry from the fire. GREAT THINKING GEORGE!

It still could be that Harry survived because of Lily's love for him, but that the spell didn't rebound, and someone else there stepped in to try and finish Voldermort off. It can't be Snape, because Voldermort would know that and would not trust Snape at all as we know he does. And that would rule out Wormtail too. Since we can assume that since Wormtail was the only one who could give the location of the Potters, and he certainly wouldn't have told anyone who was going to try to kill voldermort, it had to have been someone was following voldermort, or having him followed that night.

IF in fact Snape went to Dumbledore before James and Lily were killed and said, "Oh I have made a horrible mistake and told Voldermort of the prophecy, and he's going to kill the Lily", it could be that it was Dumbledore there that night. That has been addressed on two other threads (thanks to me not being able to find the first one), and there is a question of when Snape went to work at Hogwarts, so it's safe to assume since it hasn't been clarified, there is room to believe it could be significant.


JKR went to lengths to say it couldn't be blocked, deflected etc - but yet the only contradiction I could find to that was the MoM - where is seemed Dumbledore was doing just that! Blaise

This is something else that JKR will have to clarify in the final book, because it IS contradictory as it stands to have everyone saying it cannot be blocked, but having Dumbledore block it with statues and Fawlks swallowing the green light in OOTP. If she doesn't come up with something to explain this, it's going to live a big gaping hole in everything.

And also, in the very first book we are told about the elixer of life from the sorcers stone that can keep a person alive indefinately as long as they have the elixer to drink, so what happens if someone drinking the stuff gets hit with the Avada Kadavra? And it IS odd that she didn't introduce the felix flexius or whatever until THBP.

Benzoar stone was also mentioned in the first book and not again until THBP, and since JKR says she had it all plotted out from the first pretty much, the beginning and the end anyway, that is probably going to be of a lot of significance.