View Full Version : **Spoilers Did Voldemort Share? **
OK - this has come up in a couple of threads so figured we can talk it right out in it's own area ...
Simple - did Voldemort share the location of one or more of his Horcruxes?
The premise I have explained elsewhere - but here goes ..
If Voldemort died - what use would his Horcruxes be if he or no-one else could activate one?
I don't think it is like - well you die then one of them magically springs into life knowing you just deceased ..
Evidence to support that he told people as follows ...
In GoF he addressed the Death Eaters and told them that they knew the steps he took long ago to ensure he would also be around.
We are told the Death Eaters were sent to the Longbottoms that night on the premise and understanding that the Longbottoms were aware of Voldemort's location.
I propose that he has at least one person - one person he trusted above all else - know about the Horcruxes.
Of course our minds turn to Snape once again - but I wonder - just a little if it could be Bellatrix ... afterall she was locked away in Azkaban unable to help him out ... and I also liked this in HBP ..
'That was not my fault!' said Bellatrix, flushing. 'The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious - if Lucius hadn't-'
Just makes me wonder if indeed the Lestranges were sent to the Longbottoms that night - by Bellatrix knowing that the Longbottoms had gotten or knew the location of one of the Horcrux - this is discussed elsewhere BTW so dont reply on that here!
Personally I read that quote 2 ways - I am sure at least 2 of you will read it one way as well - when you do - read it again a few times ;)
i just posted this in the Knowledge of Horcruxes thread, but it belongs here...
Isn't it obvious? Staring us in the face? There are only two know people who have found the Horcruxes - Dumbledore and RAB.
What if RAB was Voldemort's most trusted, enough to be told of the Horcruxes? He/she would have been extremely skilled at legilimens and occlumency to fool Voldemort, but we know it can be done.
As soon as RAB found out about the Horcruxes he/she took their chances and found one - this is around the same time as the prophecy was told to Voldemort, because RAB figured if he destroyed the Horcrux, then Voldemort's chances of being defeated were greater...
I guess it is possible though, not trusting anyone THAT much, Voldemort only told RAB of the one. Maybe, just maybe, he told seven DE of one each, and Voldemort, being the secret keeper of their locations, knew they could not tell anyone else - even after the mishap with the AK, because he wasn't dead...
You know, that nicely ties into my above post as well - you know the quote an all ;)
Come on people - you had enough to comment on this in other threads - here's your chance - show me - prove to me Voldemort didnt tell a soul (nice pun!) about his Horcruxes expeiment - I have my copy of GoF ready ;)
Sirius Potter Fan
07-08-2005, 20:19
OK Blaise. . . you asked for it! ;)
Although I consent that Voldemort may have told some/one that he had created the horcruxes. There is no way he would have given them the locations!
If Voldemort died - what use would his Horcruxes be if he or no-one else could activate one?
I don't think it is like - well you die then one of them magically springs into life knowing you just deceased ..
You see. the Horcruxes do not get used . It is only the fact that part of the soul continues to exist, that that keeps the owner "alive" Otherwise first, there would not now be a mystery 7th Horcrux, because one of them would no longer exist if it had been "used". The Horcruxes don't need to be "activated", their only purpose is to house a part of the soul, and as long as the soul exists in this plane, the owner cannot "die". That is why Voldemort hid them far and wide, for there to be little chance of anyone finding them all and destroying them. Voldemort would not take that chance of giving out the location to anyone. Shurely he knew that if he could probe his DE's minds, other's might as well, and easily find the Horcruxes and destroy them.
In GoF he addressed the Death Eaters and told them that they knew the steps he took long ago to ensure he would also be around.
We are told the Death Eaters were sent to the Longbottoms that night on the premise and understanding that the Longbottoms were aware of Voldemort's location.
The DE's were'nt sent to the Longbottoms by Belatrix, she was there herself! (and I think if anyone would have known any of the locations, it would most likely have been her) I think that if she did know that he took steps to maintain his life that she expected him to still be somewhere in bodily form, and assumed that he had been captured, and was prisoner somewhere. I wonder if even Voldemort knew that he would be "ripped from his body" as he was, he did seem to have been a bit surprised by it. I simply think that the DE's at the Longbottoms were looking for a living breathing alive Voldemort.
You see. the Horcruxes do not get used . It is only the fact that part of the soul continues to exist, that that keeps the owner "alive" Otherwise first, there would not now be a mystery 7th Horcrux, because one of them would no longer exist if it had been "used". The Horcruxes don't need to be "activated", their only purpose is to house a part of the soul, and as long as the soul exists in this plane, the owner cannot "die". That is why Voldemort hid them far and wide, for there to be little chance of anyone finding them all and destroying them. Voldemort would not take that chance of giving out the location to anyone. Shurely he knew that if he could probe his DE's minds, other's might as well, and easily find the Horcruxes and destroy them.
OK interesting - are you saying that Horcruxes aren't 'used' - but instead just have to exist in the big bad world - as long as they arent discovered they act like a self preservation item?
You know what - I never thought of that ...
I'm gonna post that on it's own ... see what people say ...
Fortescue
09-08-2005, 02:09
Simple - did Voldemort share the location of one or more of his Horcruxes?
The premise I have explained elsewhere - but here goes ..
If Voldemort died - what use would his Horcruxes be if he or no-one else could activate one?
I don't think it is like - well you die then one of them magically springs into life knowing you just deceased ..
Evidence to support that he told people as follows ...
In GoF he addressed the Death Eaters and told them that they knew the steps he took long ago to ensure he would also be around.
We are told the Death Eaters were sent to the Longbottoms that night on the premise and understanding that the Longbottoms were aware of Voldemort's location.
Remember Dumbledore's conversation with Voldemort in his Pensieve memory - Voldemort was traveling with four of his Death Eaters; all of them had been at Hogwarts with Tom Riddle. Voldemort went to Dumbledore trying to get his foot in the door of Hogwarts by saying he wanted a teaching job at the school. The Death Eaters who waited for Voldemort at the Hog's Head were Dolohov, Rosier, Mulciber, Nott - all old school friends of Voldemort. He was trying to get his hands on the final items he thought worthy to house his soul bits - objects that belonged to the founders of Hogwarts. Surely, the Death Eaters that were with him could have known about his quest as they were with him the night he asked Slughorn about Horcruxes. They had left the room, but JKR made note of how earlier, they had smirked at Slughorn because he was so easily plied with gifts and they knew Voldemort was setting Slughorn up for the information about Horcruxes he was missing.
Early on Tom did his killings on his own. To our knowledge, when he went to kill his father he was alone. He took the ring from Morfin then went to kill his father. It's possible he made his first Horcrux that night when he split his soul committing his first murders. The next time we saw him wearing the ring there might have already been a bit of his soul inside the ring. His question to Slughorn regarding making seven Horcurxes could have been merely his need for confirmation that it was possible to split your soul seven times and not so much how you might go about doing it. He asked Slughorn what spell you would use to make a Horcrux, but as we saw in Dumbledore's memory of when he set Riddle's wardrobe on fire in the orphanage. Tom already knew how to enchant items as the things he had stolen from the other orphans had been enchanted as they were moving around in the box they were stored in.
Back to the question - early on he might have told his closest followers, the ones mentioned above, his plans to make Horcruxes. He might have needed help in the beginning, but as his strength and persona grew, I'm sure he kept his plans to himself. Obviously, at least one of his followers knew the location of his Horcrux in the cave based on the letter addressed to the "Dark Lord" from R.A.B, but if he would have told someone like Bellatrix, someone much younger than Voldemort, I can only think he would have done it for another reason. Whomever found out about the Horcrux in the cave thought it might have been the only one as they pointed out they would destroy it immediately and wanted to make sure that when Voldemort met his match he was mortal again. Therefore, I believe he didn't tell any of his followers everything or R.A.B would have known there were more than one Horcrux, and giving up their life to destroy only one bit of Voldemort's soul might not have been worth it!
Umm - not sure I said he told anyone everything - my question was did he share the knowledge - and I think finally you agree :D
It makes sense - dependant on how you look at how the Horcruxes are either used or just have to exist ... if they have to be used - he would have had to let at least one person know where a piece of him was and also possibly how to activate it - even when to activate.
It is clear from GoF that the DE's knew of his quest for immortality and also some of the steps he took - which of the steps he told them we do not know for sure - but he confirms that
a) The DE's knew he was trying to be immortal
b) He had explained some steps to them
All of that lead to the comment he made about how could they doubt he would come back ...
Fortescue
09-08-2005, 13:34
Umm - not sure I said he told anyone everything - my question was did he share the knowledge - and I think finally you agree :D
It makes sense - dependant on how you look at how the Horcruxes are either used or just have to exist ... if they have to be used - he would have had to let at least one person know where a piece of him was and also possibly how to activate it - even when to activate.
It is clear from GoF that the DE's knew of his quest for immortality and also some of the steps he took - which of the steps he told them we do not know for sure - but he confirms that
a) The DE's knew he was trying to be immortal
b) He had explained some steps to them
All of that lead to the comment he made about how could they doubt he would come back ...
The older Death Eaters that he went to Hogwarts with probably went with him after Hogwarts to wherever he went to do his experiments for ten years. They were with him before and with him after he returned, so assuming they stayed with him to serve him, then they were probably in on what he was doing to some extent. We know that Rosier is dead, but Nott was at the circle in the graveyard and at the Ministry, Dolohov was in Azkaban and Mulciber was with the other Death Eaters at the Ministry in OotP. The three that are still alive seem to be the oldest of the Death Eaters and probably know more about Voldemort than any of the younger ones as they have been with him since he was only Tom Riddle. I just can't see him being that open and dependent on the loyalty of those he himself has made murderers and criminals. As I said, if he trusted any of them with such an important thing it would be the older ones, and then he still wouldn't tell them everything. He's not the trusting type of person.
thats the beauty of the magical world, isn't it!?
He could become his own secret keeper, and divulge the information to whomever he wanted and they could never tell anyone, not even after the AK mishap, because he wasn't dead. They would have known too, that he was alive, but I think unable to tell anyone, because then they'd be outed as definate DE and given the kiss.
I am guessing RAB was one of those few.
Urghhhh - sadly I am gonna have to hiatus this thread until I can get clear another thing that would make this kinda usless to discuss :p
I am not adversed to him having at least one confident - Snape is looking like a good candidate, same as Bellatrix ... although in the second she lost favour after the OoTP fiasco :p
Fortescue
10-08-2005, 12:48
I guess all I can say is that if Voldemort shared the information of his Horcruxes with his Death Eaters, any of them, then Dumbledore was way off the mark as he stated several times throughout HBP that Voldemort didn't tell anyone about his Horcurxes - then we have the evidence that at least one person knew. R.A.B - so was Dumbledore simply mistaken in his assumption, or was someone in Voldemort's circle of Death Eaters nosing into his business on their own?
I suppose once again we can look at Snape on the above.
He seems to have developed his own path in the spying market. It is possible Dumbledore might have shared his thoughts with Snape - Snape saw Voldemort was doing something - maybe even had a little look into his head and then informed Dumbledore ... this then gave Dumbledore something to look into - how did Tom find out about it ...
I still think given what he said in GoF that he made some pretty high level implications on him creating Horcruxes even if he never came right out and said .. I mean the Horcruxes thing isnt widely known - perhaps he just explained to them he took steps to make sure he would be immortal (kinda like what he said in GoF) but no-one really knew exactly what.
Perhaps he figured with minimum knowledge that one DE would understand and look at way's the boss could be immortal - stumble on the Horcruxes thing and then maybe look for possible locations etc ..
I think Voldemort wouldnt be so well remembered as saying these things in GoF if indeed it wasnt true - they should have known he would always be around ... he took steps ;)
Fortescue
11-08-2005, 09:52
I kind of think that Snape was who Dumbledore was making his assumptions about Voldemort from - If he was telling Dumbledore how Voldemort was so secretive among his Death Eaters, maybe Dumbledore just figured Voldemort wouldn't tell something as important as information on his Horcruxes with the other Death Eaters.
Off topic a bit - I still want to know who the Death Eaters were in the Graveyard that he acknowledged, but did not say their names. You know that is going to come up in book 7.
I guess all I can say is that if Voldemort shared the information of his Horcruxes with his Death Eaters, any of them, then Dumbledore was way off the mark as he stated several times throughout HBP that Voldemort didn't tell anyone about his Horcurxes - then we have the evidence that at least one person knew. R.A.B -
I think Voldermort did share information regarding them to an extent atleast, because clearly in Goblet of Fire (The Death Eaters, pg 648 US Edition)he says this:
"And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?"
I think he did not share details, because in the note left by RAB, he talks of , 'discovering' the secret.
I think Dumbledore was mislead on this, because he does say several times that the Death Eaters did not know of the Horcruxes. These two things got me to wondering about it all after I reread the Goblet of Fire quote above:
(HBP Horcruxes pg 508 US Edition)
"...but he was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy. When Voldermort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold" then further down he says:
"Of Course, Lucius did not know what the diary really was. I understand that Voldermort had told him the Diary would cause the Chamber of Secrets to reopen because it was cleverly enchanted"
"I AM TOLD" and "I UNDERSTAND" to me are indications that he has gotten this information from Snape. So I figure that Snape is his source about the Death Eaters not knowing about the Horcruxes also, and that Snape has mislead Dumbledore on this.
Interesting formulation there on the piece ...
I think, and I am going to use my fav word again - a contradiction has occured.
One or the other - Voldemort or Dumbledore are under a false perception.
Looking at the scene in GoF - there is nothing to suggest that Voldemort was decieved - afterall he is expressing his opinions ... where as with Dumbledore - he seems to get some information third party ...
This will actually help with my Blaise Wild Spec#2 if indeed Snape isnt always level with Dumbledore ..
I think the facts speak for themselves here - Voldemort very much believes he let people there present that night that he took steps to ensure he was always around - them who knew how far along the path of immortality he walked ...
I haven't got my books handy right now, but was Voldemort talking about the Death Eaters when he said "And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?"
Did he specifically say it was the death eaters that knew?
I know it is unlikely that he told anyone else, I mean, why would he, but for the off chance that he boasted to the enemy that they could not destroy him...
Are you reffering to the 'And I ask myself' thinking that the whole part was said to himself?
I think he was using a figure of speech - like saying in his own mind, almost to reassure himself, the questions he read out loud to the newly arrived Death Eaters.
I he addressed the circle and said this out loud - as such I can see your point but it was defo to at least 30 people - I am sure that is how many people Harry later told Dumbledore he saw there ...
Kashlie,
Yes, he specifically said his death eaters knew of the steps he took long ago.
Oddly Dumbledore remembers a later part of this speech that Harry told him, in HPB, pg 501 US Horcruxes
"Then you told me, two years later, that on the night Voldermort returned to his body, he made a most illuminating and alarming statement to his Death Eaters. "I, who have gone further along the path that leads to immortailty." That was what you told me he said, "further than anybody." And I thought I knew what that meant, though the Death Eaters did not. He was referring to his Horcruxes.
And Voldermort DID say that, but he said it AFTER he his little rant about how the death eaters THOUGHT he was dead, even though they KNEW of the steps that he took long ago.
I am trying to figure out what Dumbledore meant by "Then you told me, two years later" Goblet of fire, then Order of the Phoenix, then HBP, but where in HBP would he have said that? I think I have looked in all of the Dumbledore/Harry conversations, and have not found it, unless I am counting the time wrong.
Fortescue
21-08-2005, 00:54
Kashlie,
Yes, he specifically said his death eaters knew of the steps he took long ago.
Oddly Dumbledore remembers a later part of this speech that Harry told him, in HPB, pg 501 US Horcruxes
"Then you told me, two years later, that on the night Voldermort returned to his body, he made a most illuminating and alarming statement to his Death Eaters. "I, who have gone further along the path that leads to immortailty." That was what you told me he said, "further than anybody." And I thought I knew what that meant, though the Death Eaters did not. He was referring to his Horcruxes.
And Voldermort DID say that, but he said it AFTER he his little rant about how the death eaters THOUGHT he was dead, even though they KNEW of the steps that he took long ago.
I am trying to figure out what Dumbledore meant by "Then you told me, two years later" Goblet of fire, then Order of the Phoenix, then HBP, but where in HBP would he have said that? I think I have looked in all of the Dumbledore/Harry conversations, and have not found it, unless I am counting the time wrong.
The quote you made above is not complete. Dumbledore was telling Harry in HBP about their conversations, both after Harry saved Ginny from Riddle in the Chamber, and then when Voldemort was resurrected in the graveyard. Dumbledore was simply telling Harry that he had taken those two experiences of Harry's and realized what Voldemort had been up to.
First, by using the diary as a Horcrux, because Dumbledore knew that by simply enchanting that diary, Riddle would not come back to life - he knew there was more to it than that. Secondly, the graveyard scene - Voldemort's statement - "I who have gone further....." was proof to Dumbledore that he was on the right track in assuming multiple Horcruxes, at the time though, he wasn't sure of how many, not until he viewed Slughorn's true memory. We never actually saw Harry give a fully detailed recount to Dumbledore of what Voldemort said in the graveyard word for word. The most you will see of it is in the chapter Parting of the Ways in GoF.
I feel like such a nit wit! Thank you for clearing that up!
So maybe Harry made the mistake in not telling Dumbledore everything that Voldermort said?
There is another place that this happened. After Christmas in HBP when Harry sees Dumbledore, it doesn't specifically say what he tells Dumbledore, and it's after Harry overhears the conversation about the Unbreakable Vow. So I wondered if maybe Harry didn't forget that. But I was thinking surely not.
I really don't think that Voldemort would have shared any information about his horcruxes with ANYONE! He is a loner - he leads all of his higher up death eaters along with the bait that they are his most trusted, his most honored servant! That is the unatainable goal of all his most faithfull death eaters. Bellatrix, Lucius, Snape, Wormtail, BartyCrouch Jr.and even Draco Malfoy - thay all think falsely that they could become Voldies 'most trusted and most valued death eater' ie; his best freind! But, he doesn't care for a single one of them! and he never will! His days in the orphanage hardened him beyond the ability to love or trust anyone! This man killed his own father and grandparents and framed his only other living relative for it!
I beleive that the purpose of a Horcrux is only to house a portion of a soul, so that the portion remaining in the wizard is not complete and therefore cannot be destroyed! A horcrux is not and cannot be utilized to refresh or bring back the wizard with the incomplete soul. Otherwise Voldemort would have headed strait for one of his horcruxes for a rebirth Immediately after trying to kill baaby Harry instead of going into hiding for 13 years! Since its sole purpose is to simply exist without ever being destroyed - and Voldemort is a proven cold blooded self absorbed individual without the abillity to open up to a 'freind' - It just doesn't make any sense for Voldemort to 'share' the information about the horcruxes with anyone. If no one knows that the horcruxes were even created then they would never be searched for and subsequently never be discovered! If the horcruxes are never discovered, they cannot be destroyed!
Voldemort is arrogant in his evil but, he'd not stupid! Ha has shared his horcrux secret with Absolutely no-one. He does not beleive that anyone is aware of them.
I feel like Voldemort - being the dictator that he is has only ever told his followers that he has "done more than any other wizard in history towards becoming immortal." That statement would be all he would feel that his followers would need to hear (being so bent to his will and so intimidated by his powers) in order to be convinced that he has done simply what he said. "Gone further than any other wizard towards immortality." NONE (Absolutely none) of his lowly followers would be worthy of the knowledge of the means and ways! I feel very strongly about this point.
Voldemorts arrogance would lead him to think that his followers would never question his statements - which is evedent when he questions their loyalty in GOF!
R.A.B. admits that he discovered the dark Lords 'secret' - Its not a secret if you start telling people about it!
As always, a great and factual post there Norbert!
And as always hard to defy your logic - darn you ... :(
I think the key to a defence comes from RAB - in order for him to have discovered the secret - there would have had to be some loose ends that Voldemort didnt quite keep concealed.
As such - it isnt as straight forward in my eyes.
I do think that Voldemort shared the information - not the exact details etc but he left some details and I dont think it was with everyone.
One of the things I liked was in Spinners End when Bellatrix stops short of saying something about how the Dark Lord once trusted her with some really precious - dont have the text to hand ...
I think Voldemort was clever enough to empart certain facts to certain key DE's - probably on the basis of dont share with others - Bellatrix was very adamant about keeping the Dark Lords secrets with Sissy ...
I think you are right to a point - but I do feel certain DE's were given that little more than others - and that is how RAB got his lead ...
...I think you are right to a point - but I do feel certain DE's were given that little more than others - and that is how RAB got his lead ...
You may have a point there... R.A.B. surely could not have discovered this horcrux in the way Dumbledore did. BTW - How / Why did Dumbledore guess that a horcrux was located at the cave anyway? How did R.A.B. switch the lockets - was he alone, did he drink the potion as Dumbledore did??? These two questions belong to other threads...
Back on topic - IF R.A.B.'s idendity is Regulus Black, then learning some key information from good old cousin Bellatrix would be a logical source. I wouldn't beleive Regulus to be close enough to the dark lord to gain any usefull information from him so getting something from Bellatrix which could have lead him to discovering the secret seems plausible.
On the other hand, Lucius Malfoy was handed a Horcrux and was not aware of it! I just don't see how Voldemort shared Horcrux detail information with Bella if he never shared it with Malfoy???
See the first point you made still makes me think to Snape - the point about how did Dumbledore find out about the cave.
Of course the less exciting answer to that was that Dumbledore saw the pattern of Tom using locations/places from his past and remembered the Orphanage lady telling his about the cave episode.
If it is Regulus, then you are right - perhaps Bella was a bit of a mouthy lady when she was younger and thus set Regulus on the path of discovery from a benign comment?
If you think about this logically- I still believe Tom made a slip, be it intentional or mistake and gave out that little slither of information that allowed RAB to link the clues .. otherwise we would have to give RAB max props for figuring it out - because we have all been reading these books for years and didnt see it coming :eek: ;)
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