View Full Version : **Spoilers Lord Voldemorts Request **
OK - Chapter knowledge is desired on this on - more the part when Dumbledore show's Harry his last meeting with Voldemort ...
As I read this 'meeting' between the 2 I saw a great deal of things - but Dumbledore left this with a question - and indeed I ask you all it now ...
Why did Voldemort want to return to Hogwarts?
Dumbledore concludes both in the meeting and later to Harry that Voldemort did not want to DADA job ...
I, personally am not so sure ... notice how Voldemort behaves once he knows that the DADA job is off the table and not an option ... he ends the conference and leaves ...
And as concluded - no-one was able to stay in the DADA job for more than a year from that point forward ...
So - tell me your thoughts on this small piece of HBP - how do you see both Dumbledore and Voldemort in this dialogue?
Fortescue
07-08-2005, 02:28
After Harry viewed the memory with Dumbledore of Voldemort's return to Hogwarts, Dumbledore told him in fact, Voldemort did want the DADA job, but he did not reveal what he, Dumbledore, thought Voldemort's true purpose was for wanting a place within the school until after Harry collected the memory from Slughorn that made Dumbledore's knowledge of the Horcruxes complete.
Horcruxes - HBP, pg. 505 US
"I cannot answer for whether he ever managed to find anything of Ravenclaw's. I am confident, however, that the only known relic of Gryffindor remains safe."
Dumbledore pointed his blackened fingers to the wall behind him, where a ruby-encrusted sword reposed within a glass case.
"Do you think that's why he really wanted to come back to Hogwarts, sir?" said Harry. "To try and find something from one of the other founders?"
"My thoughts precisely," said Dumbledore.
Clearly, Dumbledore thought Voldemort was after those items he thought would make the best Horcurxes - magical trophies to complete his collection of items that had belonged to the four founders of Hogwarts. Voldemort's request for the teaching position was simply a way to get his foot in the door so he'd have time to take the remaining items he needed for his Horcruxes.
My thoughts on this were pretty much on target with Forte's - however, I have to wonder how on earth he thought he was going to be able to find some such artifacts. I doubt Voldemort knew about Gryffindor's sword, especially since it wasn't discovered until after he tried to get the teaching job. Did he know about it before then, though, and hope to find it before anyone else did?
Were there possibly other secret hiding spots of the other founders, something like the Chamber of Secrets for Helga, Godric, or Rowena? They probably wouldn't be as well know as the Chamber because I doubt they would keep a terrible monster in theirs - so as such perhaps nobody ever looked for them because only a select few knew they existed. Why would Voldemort think that he had the abilities to find such artifacts when nobody else for a thousand years did?
As you can imagine - I dont agree ...
I really think he believed that Dumbledore was going to give him his shot at DADA teacher - he was declind in the past because of age - but now he was older and wiser ...
If his progative was to get access to these objects - then why did he leave as soon as he knew he wouldnt get the job?
I mean - I can see your point - but if he really wanted these things to complete his Horcrux - he would have made more of an argument or indeed more force into getting in there ...
I think he genuinly wanted to be at Hogwarts as a Prof - the fact he lost the plot and could no longer tell how far from reality he was - well he couldnt see it ...
Sirius Potter Fan
07-08-2005, 19:25
I think if he wanted to just look for relics hidden in the castle, he wouldn't have cared a lick if he got the job or not. Still, no one other than him knew where the Chamber of Secrets was, nor could they get in there. Once in the castle he could hide out in the chamber, and use the pipes etc. to do all the searching he wanted. Riddle really did want that job for some reason, could it be the same reason Dumbledore held out so long with Snape? this really needs some thought!
That is kinda my point - if he was just trying to get his hands on prized Hogwarts items - I am sure he would have tried everything in his arsenal ... but all he seemed to want to know was if he could become the DADA teacher ...
You know the curse he put on the job goes to show how much he really wanted to be there and in the job ... he left right away - not making an attack on Dumbledore or anything once he realised it was never going to happen.
I think he saw Hogwarts like a home - he related to it in a way like he had never felt like in the past and saw the DADA job as a great goal and a way he could always be about ...
His warped mind was already meaning he lost the plot - and although everyone knows he would never be allowed to teach ... he still felt like he would have been able to!
Fortescue
08-08-2005, 14:17
That is kinda my point - if he was just trying to get his hands on prized Hogwarts items - I am sure he would have tried everything in his arsenal ... but all he seemed to want to know was if he could become the DADA teacher ...
You know the curse he put on the job goes to show how much he really wanted to be there and in the job ... he left right away - not making an attack on Dumbledore or anything once he realised it was never going to happen.
I think he saw Hogwarts like a home - he related to it in a way like he had never felt like in the past and saw the DADA job as a great goal and a way he could always be about ...
His warped mind was already meaning he lost the plot - and although everyone knows he would never be allowed to teach ... he still felt like he would have been able to!
Um, excuse me! Did we read the same chapter? :p
Lord Voldemort's Request - HBP, pg 440 US
"The locket maybe," said Harry, "but why take the cup as well?"
"It had belonged to another of Hogwarts's founders," said Dumbledore. "I think he still felt a great pull toward the school and that he could not resist an object so steeped in Hogwarts history."
I don't think Voldemort wanted the items as a sort of walk down memory lane. Basically, I think Voldemort wanted the items because they had a magic of their own and the point of Dumbledore showing Harry the memory was to show how deceptive Riddle/Voldemort was and what he was willing to do to get what he wanted:
pg 444 US
"My friends," he said, after a moment's pause, "will carry on without me, I am sure."
"I am glad to hear that you consider them friends," said Dumbledore. "I was under the impression that they are more in the order of servants."
"You are mistaken," said Voldemort.
"Then if I were to go to the Hog's Head tonight, I would not find a group of them - Nott, Rosier, Mulciber, Dolohov - awaiting your return? Devoted friends indeed, to travel this far with you on a snowy night, merely to wish you luck as you attempted to secure a teaching post."
There could be no doubt that Dumbledore's detailed knowledge of those with whom he was traveling was even less welcome to Voldemort; however, he rallied almost at once.
"You are omniscient as ever, Dumbledore."
"Oh no, merely friendly with the local barmen," said Dumbledore lightly.
There are several points to go off on in this quote, but I will try to stick to the topic ;)
Obviously, the DADA position was open at the time or why would he have applied for the job! Why would he go to a job interview with his cronies sitting down the street in a bar if he was actually serious about getting the job? Dumbledore already knew that the Death Eaters were not Voldemort's friends - they were his servants when he was still at Hogwarts and took on the name of Lord Voldemort. He simply wanted his foot in the door so he could get those remaining items he needed for his Horcruxes.
How the heck do you draw such sweeping conclusions - it baffles me!
I read that three times to see how you could jump to such conclusions - still it fails me ... :rolleyes:
Voldemort, at the time he was in that office had many opportunities to do anything he wanted - force Dumbledore's hand the whole lot ... but he didnt ...
He asked for the job - they dialogued for a bit - then it became clear from the conversation that Dumbledore wasnt going to give him the job - what did Voldemort do ... he got up and left ...
Geez I mean - if there was prizes there that would seal his horcruxes in a manner that made them stronger than anything else - would he just walk away? :rolleyes:
Fortescue
09-08-2005, 12:59
Voldemort, at the time he was in that office had many opportunities to do anything he wanted - force Dumbledore's hand the whole lot ... but he didnt ...
He asked for the job - they dialogued for a bit - then it became clear from the conversation that Dumbledore wasnt going to give him the job - what did Voldemort do ... he got up and left ...
Geez I mean - if there was prizes there that would seal his horcruxes in a manner that made them stronger than anything else - would he just walk away? :rolleyes:
Voldemort was not going to challenge Dumbledore as he was afraid of him.
Lord Voldemort's Request - HBP, pg 446 US
For a second, Harry was on the verge of shouting a pointless warning: He was sure that Voldemort's hand twitched toward his pocket and his wand; but then the moment had passed, Voldemort had turned away, the door was closing, and he was gone.
This was after Dumledore had finished telling Voldemort he couldn't force him to pay for his crimes as he did at the orphanage after he found the stolen items in the wardrobe. Not that the thought of a confrontation with Dumbledore hadn't crossed his mind, but he knew better in the end. He walked away because he knew he had no other choice! ;)
This is interesting actually ... did you get the feeling at that time Voldemort feared Dumbledore?
Interesting because I thought they seemed amicable and comfortable ...
This leads me to 2 thoughts ...
1. Whatever happened to make Voldemort fear Dumbledore happend later
2. Riddle had grown with this silent fear of Dumbledore based on when he was a child
I'll be honest - I really dont think that fear was present in Voldemort - he didnt seem edgy, worried or anything ...
Also the lack of anger - that was another telling point here - we all would have expected Voldemort to call the odds out to Dumbledor before leaving - he didnt - he just left .. as soon as he knew he wouldnt get the job ...
Fortescue
09-08-2005, 14:01
I believe some of what made Voldemort fear Dumbledore happened in that office at the time of their meeting. Voldemort is a control freak - a type of sociopath - he likes to be in control and bend others to his will no matter what it takes to get what he wants. People who have socipathic traits don't like other people to see through them and see what they really are, and what they are really up to.
Voldemort thought he was being so sly by visiting Dumbledore for the job, yet was taken aback by the fact that Dumbledore knew so much about what he, Voldemort, had been up to since he left the school. He knew about the Death Eaters and the fact that they were sitting in the bar waiting for him to finish his interview.
As I said, sociopaths do not like for someone to find out the truth when they are trying to paint a rosy picture of things and cover up what they are really up to. They need to be in control and they will lie, cheat or steal to get the outcome they desire. I think that fits Voldemort perfectly and would account for his fear in Dumbledore as he has always been able to read Voldemort and see through his facade.
As I read this 'meeting' between the 2 I saw a great deal of things - but Dumbledore left this with a question - and indeed I ask you all it now...Why did Voldermort want to return to Hogwarts
Being Defense of the Darks Arts Professor would have been a great way to convert more Death Eaters
Fortescue
09-08-2005, 18:06
You know I thought of something else on this...JKR showed us this meeting between Dumbledore and Voldemort for many reasons as there are many specific bits of information in the vision. I think it too might have been our first glance at exactly why Voldemort feared Dumbledore, and it relates to my previous post. Dumbledore spent much of his time trying to find out exactly what Voldemort was up to. Even when he, Voldemort, tried to be discrete, Dumbledore was there in his business - that's very unnerving for someone who likes to keep his business private.
Sirius Potter Fan
09-08-2005, 21:57
I think Riddle really did want the job. As said before, Hogwarts was his only real home. . . ever. I know I even get a "homey" feeling if I go visit one of my old school buildings (I allways love school) and I had a home of my own, so I can see him wanting the job there. (of course I can see him being behind what caused the job to be open as well! :eek: ) I do think he was mad at not getting it, and may well have reflexivly gone for his wand, but thought better of it.
As I said before, If he only wanted to search for relics, once in the castle, just go to the chamber to stay and use the pipes etc, to look for things hidden in the Castle.
See with SPF once again ...
Once Voldemort was inside - are we sure he couldnt have slipped Dumbledore?
Also - notice he arrived unescorted ... that might suggest he walked into Hogwarts and to Dumbledore with no-one controlling his movements ...
Why didnt he just nick off to the Chamber?
Also - after he left - Dumbledore didnt follow him ... he could have gone anywhere ...
Really - I think he wanted to be back at the one place he called home in a position that would have made him feel like he really achieved something - I'm not saying he was the right man for the gig - the first time he killed someone would have put stop to that - but in his mind - he saw nothing wrong in all he had done - and went for the job thinking he stood a chance ...
Fortescue
10-08-2005, 14:08
See with SPF once again ...
Once Voldemort was inside - are we sure he couldnt have slipped Dumbledore?
Also - notice he arrived unescorted ... that might suggest he walked into Hogwarts and to Dumbledore with no-one controlling his movements ...
Why didnt he just nick off to the Chamber?
Also - after he left - Dumbledore didnt follow him ... he could have gone anywhere ...
Really - I think he wanted to be back at the one place he called home in a position that would have made him feel like he really achieved something - I'm not saying he was the right man for the gig - the first time he killed someone would have put stop to that - but in his mind - he saw nothing wrong in all he had done - and went for the job thinking he stood a chance ...
First off, we don't know what happened when Voldemort left the office because Dumbledore immediately pulled Harry out of the Pensieve. We didn't see what Dumbledore might have done next - maybe he took one of his invisible strolls through the school. ;)
Dumbledore offered Voldemort a drink - if in fact Gryffindor's sword was in the office at that time, which we were never shown, how do we know what type of spell would be required to make it a Horcrux? Might Voldemort have been able to cast the spell when Dumbledore's back was turned mixing drinks? Gryffindor's sword is already a magical object so another spell placed upon it might not be noticed.
I would have credited Dumbledore as feeling 'something' if that was the case :p
Interesting because I also noted that ... it seemed Harry came back rather abrubtly after Harry noticed Voldemort fiddling with his wand - then leaving the office ..
I wonder if there is more to that vision - I just cant see Voldemort being allowed to walk around Hogwarts on his own ... another thread maybe :p
Back to Voldemort's request I suppose - and the fact I still feel he really wanted that job ... nasty Dumbledore :p
Weasleyfanforever
12-08-2005, 10:10
The Dumbledore behind the desk showed no sign of surprise. Evidently
this visit had been made by appointment. "Good evening, Tom," said Dumbledore easily. "Won't you sit down?" "Thank you," said Voldemort, and he took the seat to which Dumbledore had gestured — the very seat, by the looks of it, that Harry had just vacated in the present. "I heard that you had become headmaster," he said, and his voice was slightly higher and colder than it had been. "A worthy choice."
"I am glad you approve," said Dumbledore, smiling. "May I offer you a
drink?" "That would be welcome," said Voldemort. "I have come a long way." Dumbledore stood and swept over to the cabinet where he now kept the Pensieve, but which then was full of bottles. Having handed Voldemort a goblet of wine and poured one for himself, he returned to the seat behind his desk. . "So, Tom ... to what do I owe the pleasure?"
Voldemort did not answer at once, but merely sipped his wine. "They do not call me 'Tom' anymore," he said. "These days, 1 am known
as —" "I know what you are known as," said Dumbledore, smiling, pleasantly. "But to me, I'm afraid, you will always be Tom Riddle. It is one of the irritating things about old teachers. I am afraid that they never quite forget their charges' youthful beginnings." He raised his glass as though toasting Voldemort, whose face remained expressionless. Nevertheless, Harry felt the atmosphere in the room change subtly: Dumbledore's refusal to use Voldemort’s chosen name was a refusal to allow Voldemort to dictate the terms of the meeting, and Harry could tell that Voldemort took it as such. "I am surprised you have remained here so long," said Voldemort after a short pause. "I always wondered why a wizard such as yourself never wished to leave school."
"Well," said Dumbledore, still smiling, "to a wizard such as myself, there can be nothing more important than passing on ancient skills, helping hone young minds. If I remember correctly, you once saw the attraction of teaching too."
"I see it still," said Voldemort. "I merely wondered why you — who are so often asked for advice by the Ministry, and who have twice, I think, been offered the post of Minister —"
"Three times at the last count, actually," said Dumbledore. "But the
Ministry never attracted me as a career. Again, something we have in
common, I think."
Voldemort inclined his head, unsmiling, and took another sip of wine.
Dumbledore did not break the silence that stretched between them now, but waited, with a look of pleasant expectancy, for Voldemort to talk first. "I have returned," he said, after a little while, "later, perhaps, than Professor Dippet expected . . . but I have returned, nevertheless, to request again what he once told me I was too young to have. I have come to you to ask that you permit me to return to this castle, to teach. I think you must know that I have seen and done much since I left this place. I could show and tell your students things they can gain from no other wizard."
Dumbledore considered Voldemort over the top of his own goblet for a while before speaking.
"Yes, I certainly do know that you have seen and done much since leaving us," he said quietly. "Rumors of your doings have reached your old school, Tom. I should be sorry to believe half of them." Voldemort's expression remained impassive as he said, "Greatness
inspires envy, envy engenders spite, spite spawns lies. You must know this, Dumbledore."
"You call it 'greatness,' what you have been doing, do you?" asked
Dumbledore delicately.
"Certainly," said Voldemort, and his eyes seemed to burn red. "I have
experimented; I have pushed the boundaries of magic further, perhaps, than they have ever been pushed —"
"Of some kinds of magic," Dumbledore corrected him quietly. "Of some. Of others, you remain . . . forgive me . . . woefully ignorant."
For the first time, Voldemort smiled. It was a taut leer, an evil thing, more threatening than a look of rage.
"The old argument," he said softly. "But nothing I have seen in the world has supported your famous pronouncements that love is more powerful than my kind of magic, Dumbledore."
"Perhaps you have been looking in the wrong places," suggested
Dumbledore.
"Well, then, what better place to start my fresh researches than here, at Hogwarts?" said Voldemort. "Will you let me return? Will you let me share my knowledge with your students? I place myself and my talents at your disposal. I am yours to command."
Dumbledore raised his eyebrows. "And what will become of those whom you command? What will happen to those who call themselves — or so rumor has it — the Death Eaters?"
Harry could tell that Voldemort had not expected Dumbledore to know this name; he saw Voldemort’s eyes flash red again and the slitlike nostrils flare.
"My friends," he said, after a moment's pause, "will carry on without me, I am sure."
"I am glad to hear that you consider them friends," said Dumbledore. "I was under the impression that they are more in the order of servants."
"You are mistaken," said Voldemort.
"Then if I were to go to the Hog's Head tonight, I would not find a group of them — Nott, Rosier, Muldber, Dolohov — awaiting your return?
Devoted friends indeed, to travel this far with you on a snowy night, merely to wish you luck as you attempted to secure a teaching post."
There could be no doubt that Dumbledore's detailed knowledge of those with whom he was traveling was even less welcome to Voldemort; however, he rallied almost at once. "You are omniscient as ever, Dumbledore."
"Oh no, merely friendly with the local barmen," said Dumbledore lightly. "Now, Tom . . ."
Dumbledore set down his empty glass and drew himself up in his seat, the tips of his fingers together in a very characteristic gesture.
"Let us speak openly. Why have you come here tonight, surrounded by henchmen, to request a job we both know you do not want?"
Voldemort looked coldly surprised. "A job I do not want? On the
contrary, Dumbledore, I want it very much."
"Oh, you want to come back to Hogwarts, but you do not want to teach any more than you wanted to when you were eighteen. What is it you're after, Tom? Why not try an open request for once?"
Voldemort sneered. "If you do not want to give me a job —"
"Of course I don't," said Dumbledore. "And I don't think for a moment
you expected me to. Nevertheless, you came here, you asked, you must have had a purpose."
Voldemort stood up. He looked less like Tom Riddle than ever, his
features thick with rage. "This is your final word?" "It is," said Dumbledore, also standing.
"Then we have nothing more to say to each other."
"No, nothing," said Dumbledore, and a great sadness filled his face. "The time is long gone when I could frighten you with a burning wardrobe and force you to make repayment for your crimes. But I wish I could, Tom. ... I wish I could. . . ."
What I got from this conversation, is that Voldemort was mad because once again, he failed because Dumbledore stood in the way. I think Dumbledore was right, Tom knew that Dumbledore wouldn't let him teach at Hogwarts, especially after everything he already knew about Tom; changing his name, the Death Eaters, all his experiments with the Dark Arts. Tom went there so he could be at the school, because it would be easier for him to get objects that were 'steeped in Hogwarts history' if he were a teacher. If he did want to teach at all, it wasn't because he missed the place, or he felt more at home there; it was because he would be able to train followers younger, no other reason.
Fortescue
20-08-2005, 01:34
I'm with Wheezy.
Voldemort could increase his power by being in charge of young innocent minds. If he had gotten the job he could have had a lot of power, not only over the students, but possibly the teachers as well. The Imperius Curse would come in handy on the other teachers, and Voldemort would have ready access to the Chamber.
I don't think he was that chuffed at not getting the job, he was upset because he couldn't manipulate Dumbledore and Dumbledore knew way more about Voldemort's activities since he had left the school then Voldemort thought anyone should or would.
I think what Voldemort planned to do if he got the job is irrelevant here ... I mean it doesnt take Einstein to see his methodology ...
I was a lot more interested why Voldemort went back to apply - I really think he thought he stood a chance .. and that interests me in a few ways - mostly his mental state back then.
He wasnt at the edge - he was told by Dumbledore in the end NO - and he just left - if he was really out there by that time, I think he would have done something - anything!
There is no denying that Dumbledore un-neved him - once again that isnt the point of debate either - but what was is that he really believed Dumbledore might take him back.
If you look at how he is described at that time - I think he was into his experiements but not fully emersed - I wonder if a smarter and cleverer Dumbledore could have perhaps tried to turn Voldemort around based on his still apparent fear of him and also extensive knowledge.
I cant explain it - it just seemed like this was Voldemort's last act of co-operation - from this point forward it was all about himself ... I cant help but feel Dumbledore had a small piece in what Riddle became ...
He may still of been thinking about completing Salazar Slytherin's "noble" work of keeping magical learning within all-magic families .
Sirius Potter Fan
20-08-2005, 11:17
I cant explain it - it just seemed like this was Voldemort's last act of co-operation - from this point forward it was all about himself ... I cant help but feel Dumbledore had a small piece in what Riddle became ...
Now, I just don't buy that Blaise. I think Dumbledore knew that at that point "Tom" was already beyond help. . . could you bring yourself to hire someone to work with children that you may have suspected no longer had a whole soul? Don't forget the changes in appearance that he had gone through.
The time is long gone when I could frighten you with a burning wardrobe and force you to make repayment for your crimes. But I wish I could, Tom. ... I wish I could. . .
This makes it pretty plain, Dumbledore knew that Tom was beyond help at that time, that he had already become what he was going to become. This also shows that Dumbledore honestly wished he could have done something to help save him, but couldn't . . . not wouldn't.
Now, I just don't buy that Blaise. I think Dumbledore knew that at that point "Tom" was already beyond help. . . could you bring yourself to hire someone to work with children that you may have suspected no longer had a whole soul? Don't forget the changes in appearance that he had gone through.
Dumbledore had more insight into Riddle/Voldemort's life than from just this moment - all those years previous - even as far back as when he really could make Riddle listen - like in the Orphange ... ;)
Weasleyfanforever
28-09-2005, 05:00
I would just like to point out here that JKR has said that if we need to know something, Hermione or Dumbledore says in the books, so if Dumbledore says he doesn't think that Voldemort ever wanted the job, I think it's most likely that he didn't.
He may have wanted to be in the castle, to research Horcruxes, or perhaps to find things to turn into more horcruxes, or perhaps to recruit younger followers, we don't know. But did he really want to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts? For some reason, I think not! Most evil guy ever, wanting to teach possible protege's of his how to defend themselves against whatever he plans? Don't see it happening...
Anyways, on to why I think Voldemort went back to apply. It was a power thing. Dumbledore was the only one that was never charmed by Tom while he was in school, he never really trusted him as the other teachers had. Now, he has gone out and tested himself beyone any other; pushed the boundries of the Dark Arts further than any other, and he wanted the power to be shifted. He wanted to go back and be the one in control, and he saw from the moment (and I think he knew the answer to his question at that moment as well) that Dumbledore called him Tom and not Voldemort that there wouldn't ever be a power shift until Dumbledore was dead and gone.
And about Voldemort not doing anything, Harry wants to yell out and warn Dumbledore because he is positive that he saw Voldemort's hand twitch towards his wand. It is highly likely that though he remained calm on the outside, he was raging on the inside and had to reign himself in and wait until the time was right for Dumbledore to die. We know that Tom/Voldemort has always been cold and calculating, even from the time he was a child, why would he be any different as a young man?
Also, I have to disagree that this was Voldemort's last act of cooperation. I think his last act of cooperation was when he returned the items he stole from the other children at the orphanage. After that, he refused help when going to Diagon Alley, and as Dumbledore notes, there were several nasty incidents while he was at school, including the death of Moaning Myrtle. I am pretty sure that killing another student with a giant beast would not be seen as an act of cooperation...
And again, JKR has said that it has always only been about Voldemort himself, he has never loved or cared for anyone else, never had friends; only followers and enemies.
And of course Dumbledore had a part in what Tom became. He was the one that Tom wanted to be like, only in the exact opposite, if that makes sense. He wanted the power, the respect, the loyalty. But his ideals were not that of openness, understanding, love, and acceptance and that is why he can never succeed. He will always be striving towards something that is unattainable to him...
If Voldemort is Harry Potter's horcrux, that would definitely be to Harry Potter's advantage. Lord Voldemort could not just kill him without somehow destroying Harry's horcrux within himself. Also, I think that James’ death served to create a horcrux of Lord Voldemort that Harry Potter keeps. I must assume that this was unintentional due to the attempted use of the Avada Kedavra curse upon Harry Potter that night and the repeated attempted murders of Harry throughout the series.
What would be the result of this exchanging of souls? Well, I think Lord Voldemort is going to kill Harry Potter. Then, due to the horcrux, Harry Potter would still be alive within Lord Voldemort. Thus, I can only hope that somehow Harry Potter will be able to extract his half-soul from Voldemort before Voldemort is killed. Then again, I think it would be more likely that it would be Harry Potter who sacrifices himself knowingly, so that Lord Voldemort can be killed. I think Harry would do so out of his sense of duty to Professor Dumbledore, to his parents, and to the wizarding world.
From http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theburrow/aj01.shtml
Folks,
Could it be that the final horcrux is Dumbledore's wine goblet?
We all suspect that LV was trying to get the job posting as a way of getting near one of Gryffindor's artifacts, e.g., the sword. We also know that Dumbledore was a great wizard (very great...the only one LV ever feared).
In the scene, we have the quote:
"For a second, Harry was on the verge of shouting a pointless warning: He was sure that Voldemort's hand had twitched toward his pocket and his wand. ..."
Could it be that Voldemort was actually pocketing the goblet as a spur-of-the-moment substitute? The "...and his wand" part could have been the perfect way of subtly hiding this clue. In fact, I read this chapter countless times before I made this connection.
If so, then:
A) This clue is still available to Harry, since Dumbledore's memory had been extracted and stored.
B) Dumbledore explained to Harry that he had other theories as to what Voldemort was up to in that scene, but never had time to elaborate. Perhaps Dumbledore was on to this horcrux theory.
C) The wine glass was explicitly referred to as a "goblet". We've had the Goblet of Fire, and now another potentially serious goblet reference.
What do you think? This is really bugging me and the rest of my family. OH, and where could the goblet have gone?
P.S. It may also be notable that a wine glass is mentioned in the sentence following Tom Riddle's question to Slughorn about what a horcrrux is. Strange coincidence.
Interesting ... very interesting ...
My first thought would be - would that have been significant enough to be a horcrux item to Voldemort - we know he chose his objects because they also meant something to him - with this act I could only surmise he was just being reckless, I mean a goblet can break the whole lot but maybe the thrill of sealing a horcrux right under his nose would be worth it ...
I mean there is a huge amount of significance to this part of the story - on face value it would suggest the last, almost amicable discussion between Dumbledore and Voldemort ... but things don't ring true here ... Voldemort was up to more and that significance pinned to the 'twitch' towards Voldemort's wand just screams 'take note'!
I do still believe Voldemort's arrogance lead him to believe Dumbledore may have granted him the position but it is also possible it represented his last chance to get in Hogwarts unopposed and to maybe seal or place a Hogwarts horcrux?
I've been burrowing about trying to find references to other goblets, wine glasses or such.
We should note that Dumbledore drinks from a "goblet" in the cave, albiet one that he seems to conjur up himself. It wasn't sitting by the basin waiting for him. Oddly, JKR opens the paragraph with "Almost absentmindedly, ..." (p. 568). Could this be a connection to Dumbledore's having missed this clue in his stored memory? I'm almost certainly reading in too much here.
But along those lines... We also have the mention that the wine that Voldemort was offerered by Dumbledore in Lord Voldemort's request as having been on the shelf now occupied by the pensieve. Would that also be where Dumbledore stores his vials of memory? Was the goblet there too? A strangely coincidental replacement.
Well, given that we'll be waiting for the next book months and months, we might as well speculate like mad.
I should go back and look through the bits about Kreacher and see if any other goblets turn up...
As per "would that be significant enough to be a horcrux item to Voldemort...?" That is the heart of the matter, really.
It is worth noting that this is the conversation where the two are hinting at what Voldemort has been up to:
" "You call it 'greatness', what you have been doing, do you?" asked Dumbledore delicately. "Certainly,", said Voldemort, ... "I have experimented; I have pushed the boundaries of magic further, perhaps, than they have ever been pushed -" "
then, after Dumbledore eludes to to the power of love we have:
"For the first time, Voldemort smiled. It was a taut leer, an evil thing, more threatening than a look of rage."
Could that look have been from the moment it dawned on him to take the goblet? Maybe the conversation with Dumbledore turned him from his initial quest (for one of Gryffindor's artifacts) toward getting even with Dumbledore, who was clearly besting him at every turn.
Wish I knew...
You know what - I am gonna seize this post in two ways - one a reply and one in a new thread - so hope you don't mind!
You could be right - perhaps his intentions was to secure the job and then use the time to pick the right object for a horcrux, to seal and conceal an object in a place he loved so much ... realising that this was probably the last ever chance he would get to be in Hogwarts unchallenged - perhaps in his desperation he broke his resolve and sealed a horcrux there and then!
Not sure about anyone else - but I like that!
cagedcactus
27-09-2006, 12:22
I am going to be honest here and say, no, there is no base to it.
All the pointers from JKR suggest otherwise.
That goblet meant no significance to Voldemort. Then the theory about him stealing it while talking to Dumbledore? why? why risk such a crucial process in front of the wizard he feared most? I can define every single thing in Dumbledore's office as a horcrux with that theory. But logic is not suggesting so.
:D
I'm not arguing that Dumbledore's goblet meant anything to Voldemort at the time he entered the room. I'm guessing the Voldemort's original intent was to gain access to something of Godric Gryffindor's.
The conversation could be construed as presenting a direct challenge to Voldemort and his horcrux pursuits. Given the dominance relationship between the two, I am surmising that Voldemort had an "aha" moment when we have the passage "For the first time, Voldemort smiled." I think that at that very moment Voldemort was thinking "We'll just see who's right...I'll show that $%#*@" and it dawned on him that using one of Dumbledore's artifacts would be the perfect symbol of that proof and a sort of revenge.
I don't think the horcrux objects themselves had to have been special to their owners in order for them to be important to Voldemort. Come on...a cup?, a locket? What was critical was the importance of the owner. Dumbledore and Voldemort had a very crucial relationship: one in which Dumbledore was clearly dominant and paternal. This really clearly chafed Voldemort. I think part of Voldemort's psyche was molded by the need to best Dumbledore, and his horcrux theory versus Dumbledore's love theory was the basis of this psychological battle.
Yes, anything in Dumbledore's office could have been a horcrux using this logic, but the object mentioned explicitly in this scene is the goblet, nothing else at all ... and then the scene ends with a twitch toward Voldemort's pocket. We also have wine goblets/glasses showing up in other critical passages (1) when Tom Riddle asks Slughorn what he knows about horcruxes, (2) it is what Dumbledore conjurs up to drink the liquid in the basin in the cave in order to obtain a horcrux, (3) and, of course, the goblet of fire.
Here's another thought along this vein:
Could the real horcrux in the cave have been Dumbledore's goblet? What if R.A.B. got the real horcrux, but then ended up in the water with the Inferi? We know that R.A.B. took a real horcrux and left a fake. We suspect that R.A.B. is under the water with the horcrux based on the results of Harry's attempt to accio the horcrux and seeing a body come briefly out of the water. And...it could be construed that whatever the "thief" was meant to use to drink the liquid in the basin was missing. Dumbledore had to conjur one up. That could be totally meaningless...or not.
But hey, we've got to entertain ourselves with outlandish ponderings for a few more months. So what's the harm?
See to add to that - I do think it would make Voldemort smile to know one of his horcruxes was stashed away in one of the safest places in the wizarding world.
He may have had to compromise somewhat but as gbogbo said - to have concealed a horcrux in a location we all know would serve to fit Voldemort's mindset and under the nose of his biggest adversary ... then thinking on, imagine Dumbledore keep tracking down those horcruxes - removing then but finding Voldemort is still immortal and all because of an object in his office ...
Even if this isn't the case - I really like it because it almost mocks Dumbledore the same way RAB was hoping to mock Voldemort ...
cagedcactus
02-10-2006, 10:46
I'm not arguing that Dumbledore's goblet meant anything to Voldemort at the time he entered the room. I'm guessing the Voldemort's original intent was to gain access to something of Godric Gryffindor's.
Is that goblet mentioned Godric Gryffindor's? I didnt read it anywhere. Because only known artefact left of him is the sword. It has been discussed in another forum here, but I think we can agree on that.
The conversation could be construed as presenting a direct challenge to Voldemort and his horcrux pursuits. Given the dominance relationship between the two, I am surmising that Voldemort had an "aha" moment when we have the passage "For the first time, Voldemort smiled." I think that at that very moment Voldemort was thinking "We'll just see who's right...I'll show that $%#*@" and it dawned on him that using one of Dumbledore's artifacts would be the perfect symbol of that proof and a sort of revenge.
But hey, we've got to entertain ourselves with outlandish ponderings for a few more months. So what's the harm?
We all like to think that Voldemort was there to achieve something other than the job of DADA. Dumbledore tells Voldemort too, that for once make a straight request, and dont make a fool of others by showing that he wanted the job.
You see arrogance of Voldemort didnt think this ahead of time. Voldemort was extremely surprised by the knowledge of DD. Voldemort was clearly stumped by DD's calmness despite of knowledge of all the horrors Voldemort had commited.
He did have an AHA moment. But not because he was able to fool DD, but because he was outplayed by DD.
Hey, your assumption is fair and nice. Who am I to refuse it's rightness? I am just another bloke here throwing few of my own ponderings. :D
See, I think Voldemort's arrogance would have him thinking there was no way Dumbledore knew what he was up to as well - as such he went for the job, realised it wasn't going his way and still wanted to have something of him left at Hogwarts - realising Dumbledore knew as much as him - he knew this was his last chance to get into Hogwarts easily and as such - I think he may have been a little more reckless than we would expect!
cagedcactus
03-10-2006, 04:03
well, I cant deny that. that is very possible.
I just have a feeling that something definitely happened there. But it was not creation of a horcrux (remember, the theory about horcrux creation late after the murder is still up for debate. I dont know about others, but I disagree with that theroy). I would like to bring thoughts of our fellow member here, Vold.E.Mort. He put it precisely.
All the talk about a non important things to Voldemort being Horcruxes or even people being his horcruxes sound just too non-JKR. It sounds a bit reaching and cheesy.
I definitely will not deny HIAH. Because things happened that night are not described properly. we can debate there.
Your point about him being arrogant makes a huge sense. Kudos to that one.
But, him being rackless is something I would like to debate. Voldemort is not brave. He is cunning. He doesnt pick fights in open. And He certainly wouldnt pick one in DD's office. Not when he just got his behind kicked with some soft treatment by DD. :D
cagedcactus
04-10-2006, 08:29
That is what I think too.
He was there to find something he could relate too.
Something valuable, or something he left behind.
All the talk about a non important things to Voldemort being Horcruxes or even people being his horcruxes sound just too non-JKR. It sounds a bit reaching and cheesy.
I definitely will not deny HIAH. Because things happened that night are not described properly. we can debate there.
Your point about him being arrogant makes a huge sense. Kudos to that one.
But, him being rackless is something I would like to debate. Voldemort is not brave. He is cunning. He doesnt pick fights in open. And He certainly wouldnt pick one in DD's office. Not when he just got his behind kicked with some soft treatment by DD. :D
Hey I agree - Voldemort would seem to plan his horcruxes to great detail - but then understand that this was his last possible stab ay adding a horcrux into Hogwarts - something he had planned for and indeed wanted to do - he would have seized the opportunity to do so if he finally realised it was no or never...
Would he have been happy sealing any random object? Heck no but he would have been happy he sealed one in Hogwarts and under the nose of Dumbledore.
And for the record, I agree - that would mean any object in his study could be a horcrux and could complicate matters a great deal - which is why if this theory is to stand we need to look at JKR's words and look for a repeated reference to an object - the goblet would seem to fit ...
That is what I think too.
He was there to find something he could relate too.
Something valuable, or something he left behind.
Kind of like the above - if his overall desire for this horcrux or a horcrux was to have it at Hogwarts - I dont think the object mattered as much as the location - perhaps sometimes the object isnt the most important thing but the location - it would still follow the same patterns no?
secret seeker
27-10-2006, 22:13
I cant see any object in d.d. office being a horcrux, d.d. would know, he "taught Tom riddle, he knows his style", and magic leaves traces as d.d. said, and a Horcrux is a powerfully magical Dark object that d.d. would have felt/ seen.
Maybe Voldemort was looking for more Horcruxes, maybe, just maybe, he made the school a Horcrux?. You can't deny its not possible. However, I cant see d.d. not knowing about it. Be ironic though, wouldnt it?, and I think Riddles " taught leer " was more of frustration at d.d. for being " omniscent as always ".
Dumbledore would not allow Riddle to dictate the terms of the meeting, right from the off, that must have p****d him off, not getting what he wanted. I strongly agree there is more to that memory than d.d. showed Harry, we can see that from the way they left the memory, and I dont think d.d. wanted harry to see it, or, thought it was of relevance.
Glumbumble
28-10-2006, 09:47
I think that Dumbledore is right that Tom did not expect to get a teaching post at the school and, indeed, he was not attending an interview. Although Dumbledore knew that Tom would be calling and may have guessed that Tom might wish to discuss the job we read;
Dumbledore stood and swept over to the cabinet where he now kept the Pensieve, but which then was full of bottles. Having handed Voldemort a goblet of wine and poured one for himself, he returned to the seat behind his desk. . "So, Tom ... to what do I owe the pleasure?"
Dumbledore and Tom had not met to discuss the DADA post.
I think that Tom wished to discuss the option of teaching at Hogwarts mainly to learn how much Dumbledore knew about the things he, Tom, had been doing. I am sure that he would have liked to return to Hogwarts not only because of the opportunities of finding relics of the founders but also for finding places to hide relics once they had been made into Horcruxes but he knew it was unlikely.
Hagrid told Harry that there was no safer place than Gringots, except Hogwarts, and for someone who additionally could open the Chamber of Secrets it would be difficult to find somewhere safer.
If I were to consider any creature that we have been introduced to in the series that I would feel safe in making into a Horcrux it would have been the Basilisk, well before CoS that is.
As, perhaps, the most prominent Gryffindor we have be told of Dumbledore was the most likely to have a Gryffindor relic in his possession.
In terms of relics of Godric Gryffindor, Dumbledore says that there was only one known, the sword, but we also know of the sorting hat, which JKR has said is not a Horcrux.
If I were a betting man I would put money on the brass knocker to Dumbledore’s office being a relic also.
They rose upward in circles, higher and higher, until at last, slightly dizzy, Harry saw a gleaming oak door ahead, with a brass knocker in the shape of a griffin. He knew now where he was being taken. This must be where Dumbledore lived.
In fact if you were asked to describe Dumbledore’s office door, when lined up with other doors, you might describe it as the “Griffin Door.” The knocker would be the “Griffin Door Knocker.” We do know how JKR likes to play with words. As with many of JKR’s clues the Griffin door knocker was introduced early in the series, CoS, received one mention in GoF (just as a brass knocker), but received at three mentions in OotP and one mention (just as a brass knocker) in HBP.
If I were a betting man I would put money on the brass knocker to Dumbledore’s office being a relic also.
In fact if you were asked to describe Dumbledore’s office door, when lined up with other doors, you might describe it as the “Griffin Door.” The knocker would be the “Griffin Door Knocker.” We do know how JKR likes to play with words. As with many of JKR’s clues the Griffin door knocker was introduced early in the series, CoS, received one mention in GoF (just as a brass knocker), but received at three mentions in OotP and one mention (just as a brass knocker) in HBP.
BRILLIANT!!!!
Wow, Glumbumble, that is genius. Exactly the sort of "hiding in plain sight" that we should expect. I had been thinking of Tom Riddle's silver cup, but the brass knocker makes more sense.
The mention that the sword is the only "known" artifact of Godric Griffindor's is just too much of a tease.
It is now notable that both of the memories revealed in "Lord Voldemort's Request" begin with references to doorbells and door knockers:
Memory 1:
"A tinkling doorbell rang and both mistress and elf jumped."
Memory 2:
"The younger Dumbledore seemed to be waiting for something, and sure enough, moments after their arrival, there was a knock on the door and he said 'Enter.'"
...AND NOW THE TWITCH HAS MEANING!!!
"Voldemort stood up ...
For a second, Harry was on the verge of shouting a pointless warning: He was sure that Voldemort's hand had twitched toward his pocket and his wand; but then the moment had passed, Voldemort had turned away, the door was closing, and he was gone."
This scene must have taken place just at the door as Voldemort stood up to depart. It could make sensing that Voldemort was, in fact, making a horcrux of the knocker at that moment!
I think that Dumbledore is right that Tom did not expect to get a teaching post at the school and, indeed, he was not attending an interview. Although Dumbledore knew that Tom would be calling and may have guessed that Tom might wish to discuss the job we read;
Dumbledore and Tom had not met to discuss the DADA post.
I think that Tom wished to discuss the option of teaching at Hogwarts mainly to learn how much Dumbledore knew about the things he, Tom, had been doing. I am sure that he would have liked to return to Hogwarts not only because of the opportunities of finding relics of the founders but also for finding places to hide relics once they had been made into Horcruxes but he knew it was unlikely.
Hagrid told Harry that there was no safer place than Gringots, except Hogwarts, and for someone who additionally could open the Chamber of Secrets it would be difficult to find somewhere safer.
If I were to consider any creature that we have been introduced to in the series that I would feel safe in making into a Horcrux it would have been the Basilisk, well before CoS that is.
As, perhaps, the most prominent Gryffindor we have be told of Dumbledore was the most likely to have a Gryffindor relic in his possession.
In terms of relics of Godric Gryffindor, Dumbledore says that there was only one known, the sword, but we also know of the sorting hat, which JKR has said is not a Horcrux.
If I were a betting man I would put money on the brass knocker to Dumbledore’s office being a relic also.
In fact if you were asked to describe Dumbledore’s office door, when lined up with other doors, you might describe it as the “Griffin Door.” The knocker would be the “Griffin Door Knocker.” We do know how JKR likes to play with words. As with many of JKR’s clues the Griffin door knocker was introduced early in the series, CoS, received one mention in GoF (just as a brass knocker), but received at three mentions in OotP and one mention (just as a brass knocker) in HBP.
Have to agree with the last poster - that is a fantastic observation!
That is just the kind of clue JKR would drop and then tease us with!
Even if it isnt right - still pretty cool word play!
Ravenclaw
01-03-2007, 22:47
I have been toying with the theory that Tom visited Hogwarts (on the false pretenses of requesting a job) for two reasons...
#1: I believe that he planted a (if not more than one) horcrux in the school for Safe Keeping - Haggarid tells Harry in Book #1 (when refering to storing money/stones at Gringots) No safer place than Gringots, except perhaps Hogwarts.
#2: I also think that Tom was "feeling Dumbledore out" to see how much he knew or suspected about what he was up to and to perhaps see if he could try to bully or intimidate Dumbledore in some way...measuring him up to see how big of an obstacle DD was going to be to LV as he started to "take over".
serophis
13-03-2007, 00:43
Alright, stay with me here...We know that Riddle said he would not be able to reopen the Chamber while in school; it would be too suspicious. We also know from the existence of the Diary and Gaunt ring that he knew how to make Horcruxes, and we know that he had committed a good deal of murders by then.
I feel that his original intention was to get the job, so as to eventually reopen the Chamber, and hide a Horcrux inside. Who knows what it was; think of it: according to Book 3, someone (can't remember who) says that Harry was probably the only parseltongue other than Tom that had been in Hogwarts since Salazar Slytherin, and that was centruies ago (not to mention, the only reason Harry is a parseltongue is as a direct result of Voldemort being one as well, so it isn't even as common as two every millenium). It could be centuries before someone else with the ability to open the Chamber came along--and even if they did, who's to say they're going to go around the castle randomly speaking Parseltongue to the bathroom faucets? The Horcrux could be safely concealed forever.
But when Voldemort knew he wouldn't be able to teach in Hogwarts, he knew this plan was off the table. He was no match for Dumbledore at that time, and he knew it. He also knew that Dumbledore kept his eye on Tom very closely, making sneaking in just about impossible.
So instead, Voldemort placed a horcrux in the most obvious place. Want something to stay hidden? Put it right in front of people so they'll never expect it. Remember when Tom's hand twitched in DD's office after being turned down the job, as if reaching for his wand? We know that LV is very fond of doing powerful magic without wands...his orders to "Tell the Truth!" and the like were done very effectively before he had ever held a wand.
But wouldn't Dumbledore, who sees the smallest trace of magic, sense something was up? Not by reading LV's mind...As good of a Legimens as LV was, DD would have to be specifically searching for something to figure out what was going on. And as far as traces...Not only did the Diary stay hidden in the castle during the entire 1992-93 school year without Dumbledore noticing; Dumbledore also went into the cave in search of the Locket, and even before being weakened by the potion, looked right at a suspected Horcrux and had no idea that it was a fake. I don't think that Horcruxes are easily detectable, and I think that's what makes them so difficult to find.
I think that we can't dismiss the fact that the Sword may be a Horcrux. Dumbledore dismissed it so fast we never had a chance to ask ourselves whether it might be or not. It was a candidate in our minds as we read, and suddenly, before we started to really contemplate whether or not the sword might be a Horcrux, DD immediately puts our fears at ease saying that it could not possibly be a horcrux. But from the Diary and the Locket, we know very clearly that Dumbledore isn't as good at detecting Horcruxes as he thinks.
vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.