View Full Version : The Final Horcrux
... OK this is bothering me - so let's clear this up ...
It is believed or at least my understanding that Voldemort has to retain a piece of soul and thus makes him the final Horcrux right?
... But Voldemort has already used this one right ... the night he attacked the Potters and lived as a spirit - as he said in GoF one of his experiements worked ...
As such - is Voldemort able to absorb that Horcrux and make it his 7th again - or at least the final part?
If so - why do you need more - you are a horcux - you die and ressurect off yourself ...
Tell me - am I getting this wrong or what?
What is the implications of being part of the Horcruxes and having it called into use - as in when Voldemort should have died and lived - did he use his last Horcrux?
Fortescue
08-08-2005, 13:37
That's pretty much what I've been saying all along. When he attacked Harry he lost his body but did not die. He couldn't live without a soul and a body as we saw through Crouch and the dementors kiss or else he would have had no idea who he was and have no way to plan or think of what to do next. He could live without his body because of the experiments he did, but he couldn't live for an instant with no body and no soul. Voldemort wasn't a blithering idiot for the thirteen years before he got is body back. Thus, he had to have his soul after the attack. I don't believe that he can simply have 6 bits of his soul lying around and keep losing his body and getting it back without depleating his supply of Horcruxes. He has to have a bit of soul inside himself or he would be like Crouch. I don't think just because they are out there somewhere hidden that he can live with his soul spread out in all his hiding places and not have a bit inside himself. He's like a cat with seven lives. He's used one of them and two have been destroyed. That means he has three spares left before he is on his own.
Sirius Potter Fan
08-08-2005, 13:52
Tell me - am I getting this wrong or what?
Well. . . ;) ;) umm. . . yes? *ducks quickly*
OK, with my theory of how they work at the time Voldemort was to be "killed" his soul also continued to exist elsewhere, and therefore could not "die" as others would with the AK, so as he said he was ripped from his body and remained nothing but spirit. . . or soul. He maintained that soul as he possesed animals, Quirrel, etc and even as he got his "rudimentary" body, and even as he was "reborn" I don't know that the portion of soul that inhabits Voldemorts body is indeed a "Horcrux" but just the orriginal piece that has been torn six times, leaving 7 sections total of soul apart from each other. Voldemort "houses" the 7th portion of his soul, and once the other 6 are destroyed he will be vulnerable to death again, as there will no longer be any other soul in existance. We call him the 7th Horcrux, but it is not accurate, it is just that he is the possesor of the first piece actually of his soul. . . Am I making any sense?
Yes, SPF. He has himself, and seven horcruxes.
When the AK rebounded, he lost his body, but not the piece of his soul he kept (i believe this is one of eight - he has seven horcruxes).
Voldemort won't die until each and everyone of the Horcruxes are destroyed.
It is hard to explain, but with his soul split, the pieces can't feel what happens to other pieces, so he doesn't die, because the soul doesn't know it is being hurt or destroyed...(eek this is confusing).
I don't think Voldemort uses them up each time he dies, otherwise he isn't immortal. He knows the only way to be immortal is to have the horcruxes well hidden and protected, and with seven of them, believed the chances of anyone finding them (or finding out about them) was very slim.
Hmm, I don't think he has eight pieces. I think Dumbledore was pretty sure about Voldemort splitting his soul into seven pieces, one of which is housed in himself. As for it being a horcrux, I don't think it would necessarily be called one (unless horcrux just means, house for a soul, or something . . . :D). I think for the purposes of Harry's journey, they are calling it one, though, because it is one of the seven pieces he needs to destroy.
So, yeah, I think the final horcrux is in Voldemort.
As for why he didn't die that night, I think it is because he had the other pieces lying around. He was able to keep that bit of soul inside of him intact because of the other pieces (and the bits of magic he did to himself in addition to creating horcruxes). So, I think that's why Harry needs to attack Voldemort last. Because if there are still other horcruxes out there, Voldemort won't be able to be killed.
But see here is a point I seem to have made very badly ...
If Voldemort is a Horcrux - and lets face it he has to be with the last remaining piece of him left in there ... wouldnt it have been used when he was suppose to die the night at the Potters?
Lets assume for arguments sake that Horcruxes are used - well if he was a horcrux - he would have used it to maintain his grip on the mortal world ...
I suppose another lead on question is that once he used or absorbed that piece of soul back - wouldnt that mean that he would only ever need one - as in himself ...
Not sure I am doing a good job of explaining this ...
If him as the seventh piece saved him that night - then that part exisits right ... so as such he could die over and over again - just having his own piece of soul, his horcrux ...
This is what makes me think Horcruxes are used and not just have to exist ... but that is a different thread ...
Forte seems to suggest this was the case - he used one and then 2 others have been destroyed ... my question is since the part that was him was used - himself now, as he stands - is he still the final horcrux?
The piece of soul he has now was used from his near death ... can it be re-cycled as another horcrux making it now 8 pieces?
Urgh - I confuse myself :o
I think there are seven, including Voldemort himself. And, he cannot die while he has one inside of himself. I don't think he had to kill anyone to keep that part of him, so as such, I don't know if it is technically a "Horcrux," but rather could just be termed the seventh piece of Voldemort's soul.
As it is not really a "Horcrux" in the strictest sense, there is no "using" it. It is what is left of his soul and it still resides within him.
So, people can keep trying to kill him, but as there are other pieces of his soul around, he cannot die. That piece somehow stays around. Perhaps this is a part about Horcruxes we don't know yet.
He has to be the last piece of soul that is destroyed - otherwise, he is still invincible and cannot die.
i'm fine with the whole destroying of horcruxes thing, i get that. but what i can't get a grip on is whether they are used or not really....i'll see if i can explain my thoughts a bit better...
when someone 'kills' voldemort, they are only killing one seventh of his soul, right? so he can't die properly because it is not his whole soul...BUT does that mean the bit of soul in him actually dies, or can it not die, being attached to its original home, until the other pieces are destroyed?
OR is it as Blaise says, and he uses horcruxes to resurrect? If this is the case, then I think he had seven, as well as himself (8 pieces) then when he attacked Harry, part of it went to Harry, the other part destroyed, and he had to use one to resurrect in GoF.
Otherwise...oh I don't know. I think I am beginning to think he uses them, because otherwise he'll never be killed...because he could just resurrect from the piece he has and not have to worry until there are no other horcruxes left and they come for him.
Speaking of which...shouldn't they attack Voldemort first and turn him into what he was before GoF, then destroy the Horcruxes so he can't come back?
Kashlie, I have been thinking the same thing for about a week now and have just been sitting here trying to figure out why they won't go after Voldemort first.
My only thought is that the piece of soul in Voldemort will go with him wherever he is and that he might have a way of resurrecting himself with just that piece. Like he was still alive and they couldn't find him before. So they could destroy all his horcruxes while he was still "less than spirit," but then he might have ways of resurrecting himself.
Also, now that he realized that his magic had worked and he was able to resurrrect himself, do you guys think he has split his soul again to make it a nice even seven horcruxes? He must have heard about his diary being destroyed, so perhaps he has created a new one . . .
Or, he has probably done more to himself - we haven't found out anything he has been doing for awhile now . . . he could have been up to some pretty funky stuff . . .
Gosh I just got really confused reading this thread. My understanding of Horcruxes was nice and simple - to me at least.
I think Voldemort split his soul into 7 pieces, one remaining inside himself and the other six were spread around into various objects.
The night of the Potters attack - Voldemort didn't lose a Horcrux from himself that night. There may well have been one destroyed, but it wasn't the one that was inside him. That cannot be destroyed until all the others that are living in foreign hosts are destroyed.
I see Blaise's view here that by being attacked by the AK curse he used up that part of the soul, but I disagree on that. I don't think anything can happen to that part of the soul whilst the others are still out there. This was the beauty of him doing the Horcruxes, the AK took his body but not his soul.
Unless of course, there was two parts of his soul inside him and one died and the other survived. Not sure how that could happen though and I only typed it up for arguments sake. I don't actually think it would have happened.
I do wonder if perhaps he had only split his soul 6 times on the night of the Potters attack, meaning he had the biggest part of his soul inside himself which he later split between himself and Nagin. :confused:
Voldemort isn't a Horcrux - he is a living, breathing wizard who can't die until all the other parts of his soul are gone.
Yeah see simple lol
Sirius Potter Fan
09-08-2005, 21:10
I suppose another lead on question is that once he used or absorbed that piece of soul back - wouldnt that mean that he would only ever need one - as in himself ...
OK for right now, assuming that the Horcruxes are "used", let's map it out.
The spell rebounds destroying Voldemort and the Horcrux/soul in his body. So, if they are indeed used, that one is used up. One of the other horcruxes would have to be "activated" and the soul bit from it used to resurect him. That would require someone else to go to a hidden Horcrux, and release the bit of soul it holds (unless it releases automaticaly). So in that way, He couldn't keep regenerating himself if he only had himself as his Horcrux left. When attacked, (or hit by a train) with no remaining Horcrux but himself, he and the last bit of soul there would be gone. . . forever
Is this what you were thinking Blaise?
yarvelling
09-08-2005, 23:38
What about the idea that the pieces of soul that were stashed away as six Horcruxes, and the 'original' piece of soul; the piece that resides within Voldemort, making the seventh, are somehow magically linked. If Voldemort is attacked and close to death, his piece of soul, being the Primary (for want of a better word!) will start to syphon, to leech, power and energy from the outlying Horcruxes simultaniously. Think of them as six back-up batteries!
If he had to use them one at a time, then he would 'only' have six chances to be ressurected before the Horcruxes are used up and he'd return to being mortal.
Not knowing the processes involved in creating a Horcrux, would he be able to replace each one as he used them? We don't know yet....so in light of that limitation to his immortality, I prefer the idea that the Horcruxes are the batteries needed to jump-start him every time he gets close to dying :)
OK for right now, assuming that the Horcruxes are "used", let's map it out.
The spell rebounds destroying Voldemort and the Horcrux/soul in his body. So, if they are indeed used, that one is used up. One of the other horcruxes would have to be "activated" and the soul bit from it used to resurect him. That would require someone else to go to a hidden Horcrux, and release the bit of soul it holds (unless it releases automaticaly). So in that way, He couldn't keep regenerating himself if he only had himself as his Horcrux left. When attacked, (or hit by a train) with no remaining Horcrux but himself, he and the last bit of soul there would be gone. . . forever
Is this what you were thinking Blaise?
Yeah pretty much ...
I read JKR was implying that there was 7 strikes for Voldemort - each time one was destroyed or used - it was gone - another piece of his soul.
Because he has to retain a piece of himself - he indeed by default becomes the final horcrux.
If this is the case - the night he should have died but indeed survived (be is the merest of spirits :p ) the piece inside him was triggered and used - and didnt even Dumbledore map this as a strike?
If this is about the horcruxes just need to exisit - he shouldn't have used a strike that night - ergo only 2 removed - diary and ring ... but there is a thread on this elsewhere ..
My point is - I suppose in a round about way - is that the final Horcrux at time of designation is now gone - piece 7 was indeed the piece that was the first to go - he is now three strikes down - 2 to destruction and 1 for USE .. and indeed the piece that was him, that saved him is now gone - it saved him for dying.
This then also contradicts the use versus exist debate ... in as much as what did he have in him during the time between near death and re-birth ... and leads to a question was another Horcrux used during re-birth .. as in nagini - also thread elsewhere ...
yarvelling
10-08-2005, 12:23
Blaise, you mean the rebirth as in GoF right?
I don't think a Horcrux would be necessary for that as Voldemort was already alive and strong enough albeit in a deformed infantile form...he was not dying, or close to death when Wormtail performed the magic needed to cause the rebirth.....the magic that required his own right hand, Harry's blood, and bone from Voldemort's father.
Why would this have required a Horcrux, when it seems that the thing is needed to keep Voldemort alive in the event of him being 'killed'?
I think the question Blaise is raising here is that Wormtail was milking Nagini and feeding that to Voldemort to nourish him in some way. We don't know how he got to be in that infantile form, but I think Blaise was speculating that perhaps it had something to do with Nagini and the horcrux inside of her . . . that perhaps he was slowly regaining "human" form because of this elixir with her venom in it. And, if he was taking his energy from that part of his soul that was found in her - did he take all of it? And does that mean that this particular horcrux is "used up"? Or does it not even work that way (as is being discussed in the other threads)?
This almost leads to a side quest on this ... what is suppose to happen if you have Horcrux and loose your body?
I'm guessing what is suppose to happen if you have Horcruxes is that you could be pretty much run over and still live - but what happens if you loose your body?
We are assuming from what Varvy is saying that Horcruxes dont replenish the body - just keep the soul in tact ... what if you arent as knowledgable as Voldemort and have a spare serv, dead relative and also enemy around to vend a new phsical presence? :p
I always figured there was something significant with the final Horcrux - the piece of original left in the host .. and if it is called into action - I wondered what the reprucussions of this were ...
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