View Full Version : Used or Exist?
You see. the Horcruxes do not get used . It is only the fact that part of the soul continues to exist, that that keeps the owner "alive" Otherwise first, there would not now be a mystery 7th Horcrux, because one of them would no longer exist if it had been "used". The Horcruxes don't need to be "activated", their only purpose is to house a part of the soul, and as long as the soul exists in this plane, the owner cannot "die". That is why Voldemort hid them far and wide, for there to be little chance of anyone finding them all and destroying them. Voldemort would not take that chance of giving out the location to anyone. Shurely he knew that if he could probe his DE's minds, other's might as well, and easily find the Horcruxes and destroy them.
Ok - I want people's thoughts on this ... I might have read it wrong or drawn wrong conclusions ...
Are Horcruxes used to keep someone alive - as in you have to find one and extract the soul piece ...?
or
Do they just have to exisit and be in tact and thus will keep the soul alive and able to ressurect someone?
Sirius Potter Fan
08-08-2005, 12:36
Well :) I have voted, and I'm shure you know how I voted :p I think what Blaise quoted pretty well explains why I feel the way I do. We know that Voldemort set to have his soul in 7 pieces, and after the spell rebounded that should/would have killed Voldemort, dumbledore is still looking for a total of 7, so he clearly does not think one was "used"
I feel that the Horcruxes can be used to resurrect. For example, the diary.
Riddle was resurrecting himself. This magic was specific, though, I think. Riddle would have been complete, and young again. Whether the existing Voldemort would meld with him or not I don't know, but I guess Riddle would seek himself out...
wow...thats weird...
anyway, i think the horcruxes could be made to be used or not. Some were obviously made to keep the soul seperate and Voldemort immortal, but the diary at least, had a higher purpose.
Well my take - I figured they were used ...
In fact - the thought never occured that there was any other use - which is why I created this thread to see how you all felt ...
It's an interesting thought that if they just 'exisited' in tact then the person would ressurect - but that just doesnt seem right ...
If that was the case - you could bury these things in concrete under a building - no-one would ever find them ... still in tact ...
I figured that the object which had Horcruxes in would need to be used - to have the soul fragment extracted - kind of like the Horcrux was a vessel ...
That would fit in with my mind why they were so protected but still accessible to the person with the right knowledge ...
Think about it - if you just had to have the object exist - you would never need to visit it ever again - so securing it would be just a case of putting is somewhere no-one would ever find it- and plenty of places in the world for that ... the room of requirements had a pretty sweet place ;)
Nope - going with use!
Why would R.A.B have left a note in the locket for Voldermort if he did not think Voldermort would have to actually go to the cave, and get the locket for the horcurx to be activated?
You know, Piper, I had not even considered that! Well done!
Piper is so right! Unless Voldemort had to at some point, collect his Horcruxes, there'd be no point leaving a note where one should be. It would have been better to actually send Voldemort the note.
Mr.Prongs
09-08-2005, 15:10
I was looking for the page the note was on, but I cant seem to find it, What did the note say?
The Note Says:
To The Dark Lord
I know I will be dead long before you read this but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret. I have stolen the real horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can. I face death in the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more.
R.A.B
So we see it was NOT someone that Voldermort TOLD of the horcrux, but someone who discovered the secret, and we cannot be sure that it has been destroyed.
That note is on page 609 in my book, if all of the books are the same, after Harry has gotten back to the tower and Dumbledores body, after chasing Snape away
Sirius Potter Fan
09-08-2005, 21:26
Why would R.A.B have left a note in the locket for Voldermort if he did not think Voldermort would have to actually go to the cave, and get the locket for the horcurx to be activated?
Indeed a decent argument. But not convincing enough for me. :D I'm shure Voldemort would be the type to "do the rounds" from time to time to check on his Horcruxes, or at least R.A.B. thought he would. Thing is, How would Voldemort go and "claim" the Horcrux after being ripped from his body? (the fact that there was something concious that continued to exist out of his body pretty much to me says that it wasn't "used") Voldemort seemed able to travel around if he wanted, by possesing other living things. His resurection came only when Wormtail helped him and performed the ritual in GoF, there was no Horcrux broken open and used for the resurection that I read about ;)
m shure Voldemort would be the type to "do the rounds" from time to time to check on his Horcruxes,
That makes perfect sense. It's still a very confusing subject though, because why not more pieces, an infinate number? Like he makes the rounds, finds 2 are destroyed, kills two more people, makes 2 more horcruxes.............
yarvelling
09-08-2005, 23:22
Voldemort would not have had any need of a Horcrux for his ressurection; he was not in danger of dying....the Horcrux is their to help him survive in the instance of his physical self being 'killed'.
Wormtail used a different type of spell to cause the re-birth; all that 'bone of my father, blood of an enemy' stuff.....no Horcrux neccessary!
mimbulus mimbletonia
10-08-2005, 04:51
I agree with Yarvelling. The Horcruxes exist, therefore Voldemort cannot die. He does not need them to resurrect after every attempt on his life, it simply means each attempt will be unsuccessful while the Horcruxes exist.
The number was purely to lessen the chances of them being destroyed; and I also agree that they are hidden far and wide.
Ok, another question here, a fraction question. :eek: When you murder someone, it splits your soul, and you take the item, and encase a portion of the split soul in it, so on the first death, would your soul be split into, and you encase 50% of it THAT time, then the second time, you encase what is actually 25%? Because if that is the case, Voldermort would only have a tiny fraction of his soul inside of his body, and wouldn't the first horcruxes be stronger than the later ones?
Umm -you are saying that it is proportional to the amount of soul left in a person and how many he has already created?
That kinda works - rather than 7 full level splits - you have divisions and fractions of the soul as you made more ... the most powerful ones being the intial couple ... like it :D
Has to be said after some PM investigations by Kasher, Forte and myself - it is looking more and more like exist rather than use ... that is gonna take a bit to get my head around :p
I wonder if it even matters how much of his soul is in the horcruxes.
If they just exist, then can he get them back?
I think this is why no witch or wizard had ever split their soul more than once. Because what they are left with, leaves them less human.
Voldemort's lack of love has become worse with every split. We saw in OotP how, for lack of a better word, sensitive Voldemort is to the feeling of love.
The horcruxes do exist to keep him alive, as I have said before, and is the general consensus, he can't die until all the pieces of his soul are dead.
But, can he choose to use them? Can it be undone? I don't think so, because he can't undo the killing. So, I think this is another reason why they just exist, and why it isn't done by more wizards.
And besides, to have to reabsorb a part of his soul every time someone got lucky and killed him, would still make his life span pretty short, and I doubt Voldemort would want to split his soul, just to have to get bits back.
mimbulus mimbletonia
10-08-2005, 16:30
I'm leaning towards the theory that the soul is not split exactly in half the first time - more like a smaller piece, so all the Horcruxes would be roughly the same size (and for some strange reason the song "Take another little piece of my heart now baby" is stuck in my head today :D )
Sirius Potter Fan
10-08-2005, 19:53
I myself had thought about the dwindling fractions of soul being split, and thought of it in parallel with Dumbledore noticing the changes in Riddle's appearance each time he saw him. As his soul got smaller, his appearance became more mutated.
I don't think there is really any way to know just how much of the soul is split off. the term "split" itself leads one to believe in half, but you can still question if it is possible for the soul to "heal" between splits, or if once a piece is gone, it's gone. Either way, since they aren't used, I don't really think it would matter just how much soul there is in each Horcrux, as long as it is still there.
Fortescue
11-08-2005, 00:31
Since Voldemort has probably killed way more than seven people, is it possible that when he found out what Lucius Malfoy did with his diary and the fact it had been destroyed by Harry, might he have made another Horcurx to replace the one he knows has been destroyed? It seemed very important to him to have seven soul bits. Maybe he made another to keep the 'magical' number at seven, not yet knowing about the ring.
Dumbledore tells Harry that the diary was made to lead to the opening of the chamber...
pge 468 HBP
What intrigued and alarmed me most was that that diary had been intended as a weapon as much as a safeguard.
But there could be no doubt that Riddle really wanted that diary read, wanted the piece of his soul to inhabit or possess somebody else, so that Slytherin's monster would be inleashed again.
Further on DD says the loss of the first would not be so detrimental.
To me, this could mean Voldemort figures he can just make more, or that the actual number of Horcruxes doesn't really matter to him, as long as he doesn't lose too many.
Of course, he has already gone this far, so making more might not matter. Furthermore, does the soul get destroyed, or just the object containing i?
Because it makes sense that the object is destroyed, and the soul returns to the owner, so when the soul is complete, he can be killed. This is why it was so important to split more than once...
i think i am going to cry :( so confusing
(I wonder why he is really angry with Lucius? Perhaps Draco was supposed to be the one to go into Hogwarts with the diary, but Lucius decided to bring down Arthur at the same time? Well, we know he did, but if it was Voldemort's intent for the diary to be used, then I assume the stuff up came when the diary went to Ginny instead of a Slytherin.)
Fortescue
11-08-2005, 08:37
Hopefully, this brings a bit of comfort to Blaise and kash in our quest to prove used :D
I was looking for something else and found this quote:
The Death Eaters - GoF, pg 656 US"There was no hope of stealing the Sorcerer's Stone anymore, for I knew that Dumbledore would have seen to it that it was destroyed. But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my sights lower ... I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength."
If the Horcruxes regenerate his soul automatically just by existing, why would Voldemort have to "embrace mortal life" again before chasing immortality? If indeed the Horcruxes keep him alive simply by existing, wouldn't he always be immortal until they are all destroyed?
That is an excellent post there Forte - not because it adds weight to Used but because of what he is saying there ...
In order for him to become mortal - all his Horcuxes would have had to be destroyed ...
But why would he talk mortal based on the fact that at least 6 other Horcruxes were littered around somewhere?
Also - he wouldnt have needed the PS/SS if his 'soul batteries' recharged him as soon as he died ...
Quite rightly - this suggested that if he couldnt get to a Horcrux to return himself - he would have used the stone to live again - then try and create more ...
In essence - this is an irrelevant argument if his existing Horcruxes were safe and going their job in the medium of exist ...
I think it isnt as straight forward as some people think it is - I think the exist versus used argument is another great piece of writing by JKR ...
Fortescue
11-08-2005, 13:16
I would think if the existing Horcruxes only had to "be" in order for him to be immortal, it would seem that he was either mistaken in what part they actually played in his experiments, or there was something else taken from him the night he attacked Harry and the spell rebounded that he needed to get back in order for the Horcruxes to work properly, and he couldn't get that part back until he first had a body. What were his old strengths and what did he have to do to get them back? Did he consider his Horcruxes his strength? Too many questions! :p
The Horcruxes stop Voldemort from dying, but obviously don't prevent him losing his body. I am wondering if there is something else he had done to his body that he has had to do again.
It may just be that he knows more of the Horcruxes are actually gone, but had no other choice except to use one more - Nagini - in order to get his body back, then he could create more.
yarvelling
11-08-2005, 23:05
That is an excellent post there Forte - not because it adds weight to Used but because of what he is saying there ...
In order for him to become mortal - all his Horcuxes would have had to be destroyed ...
But why would he talk mortal based on the fact that at least 6 other Horcruxes were littered around somewhere?
Also - he wouldnt have needed the PS/SS if his 'soul batteries' recharged him as soon as he died ...
Quite rightly - this suggested that if he couldnt get to a Horcrux to return himself - he would have used the stone to live again - then try and create more ...
In essence - this is an irrelevant argument if his existing Horcruxes were safe and going their job in the medium of exist ...
I think it isnt as straight forward as some people think it is - I think the exist versus used argument is another great piece of writing by JKR ...
Good points....however, in PS, did Voldemort actually have his body after he nearly died, or was he merely reduced to spirit? I'm sure he said that in the graveyard during GoF; I'll have to double-check! If that is the case, then then the Horcruxes did exactly as they should; they kept his soul alive whillst he remained in spirit form, and he had to use and inhabit various bodies. Remember he did state that he'd used people, snakes and others....finally when Quirrell came on scene, Voldemort was strong enough to co-exist and control the weak willed human.
Also, if we are to believe that only seven total Horcruxes exist, then if indeed they are used then at some point, he becomes mortal. If they are 'batteries', then there'll come a time when they run out too I would imagine, so, he'd need something else to give true immortality: The Philosophers Stone.......!
Does it say anywhere during GoF where he actually got the small, deformed infantile body? He had it right from the beginning of the book; we encounter it during the confrontation with old Frank Brice, but it was never mentioned during CoS or PoA, and as mentioned earlier, during PS, he waas still 'borrowing' bodies....
It was wormtail that helped him get the baby form - some milk from Nagini and a few spells of his own helped Wormtail fashion the body he had.
You say that the Horcruxes would run down of their power - once again it exisit it the case - why would they slowly discharge?
What could cause that - how long would he have?
I'm not saying that exist isnt the case - I just read it that they were used ... I felt that is why he was so worried about them - keeping them safe and knowing that is 7 were found an destroyed - or indeed he did something that called him to use one - well it was a dwindling resource ...
In the exist market - the same kind of things could apply - but you have to be a little more confident that as long as at least one was around - as in himself - then he would always be sweet as ...
I just wonder how or why I see it as used when so many people see it as exist :p
As long as there is one Horcrux, other than himself, Voldemort cannot die. As long as that second one exists.
Also, if they were designed to be used, then why had no witch or wizard ever gone beyond splitting their soul once?
Because once it is split and the Horcrux is safe, they cannot die until destroying the Horcrux.
Here's a question - if all the Horcruxes are destroyed, (and no more are made) could Voldemort live out the rest of his -ahem- natural life? Or will he have to be destroyed to, in order for him to ever die (just to question my own statements above).
Good points....however, in PS, did Voldemort actually have his body after he nearly died, or was he merely reduced to spirit? I'm sure he said that in the graveyard during GoF; I'll have to double-check! If that is the case, then then the Horcruxes did exactly as they should; they kept his soul alive whillst he remained in spirit form,
I just reread that, and in it Voldermort said that after the Avada Kadavra curse bounced off of Harry and hit him, he was reduced to less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost, that he doesn't even know what he was. But that some of his experimentation had worked, he was not dead, and the curse should have killed him.
Then along came Quirrel, who was easy to bend at his will, and he posessed Quirrels body, and when he left Quirrel's body, Quirrel died, and he was left as weak as ever he had been. Until Wormtail came along and mixed up the potion with Unicorn blood and Nagini's venom that combined with a spell or two of his own invention, gave him the rudimentary body. It is all in the Death Eaters chapter, Thirty Three.
This really seems to support that the horcruixes work as long as there is one or more of them safe somewhere hidden in a relic or snake. As a horcrux, Nagini's venom would probably have extra power. Probably too, since his soul was in 7 pieces, he was less of a spirit than someone who had only split their soul once.
Also this is where he said that his Death Eaters knew the steps that he took long ago to ensure his immortality, and he was surprised that they believed him dead therefore.
OK - in defence of that I would add one thing ...
We know that Voldemort is also a Horcrux - as such when he experienced the 'gone bad' AK curse on Harry - the Horcrux that was him would have been triggered.
As such - he would have survived.
Let me set to assure you all here - since I started this last week I have started to see your reasons - but I also think it isn't as straight forward as you think ... I think that JKR never really tackled the point because it might also be a clue here ...
I can see a lot better why you say exist - before I never saw it any other way that used - but I am still not done and sitting in the exist club just yet - there is still some contradiction both ways ...
Ultimately if a Horcux needed to just exist - Voldemort would always be a horcrux himself - as such he would have only needed to split his soul once ... and ensured the second part was very well hidden - like say the Chamber of Secrets - because no-one could get in there - and yeah there is a chance he could have done that given when he started to kill etc ...
As such - exist just doesn't seem right to me ... whereas with use - he would need more slices of the pie littered around so he could get back to a body from various situations ...
I think the whole reason everyone was appalled at the idea of Riddle making 7 horcruxes because there isn't a need to. There are many ways of hiding a horcrux so that it will never be found.
But, here is the supportive and arguementative case -
Riddle made 7, because he knew he was going to be a dangerous wizard. he knew there would be opposition to him and that he would be hunted down and killed. he knew he needed to split his soul more than once to make it harder for him to be defeated.
Split his soul once - it'd only take two shots to kill him. Split it 7 times, hide and enchant...makes for a lifetime of searching.
now, the dementors...they couldn't have even killed him. He didn't have his entire soul on him. What would happen to Voldemort if the Dementors decided to turn on him? He has no happy thoughts to use a patronus, but he also doesn't have a complete soul to suck...
Fortescue
14-08-2005, 03:32
Ultimately if a Horcux needed to just exist - Voldemort would always be a horcrux himself - as such he would have only needed to split his soul once ... and ensured the second part was very well hidden - like say the Chamber of Secrets - because no-one could get in there - and yeah there is a chance he could have done that given when he started to kill etc ...
As such - exist just doesn't seem right to me ... whereas with use - he would need more slices of the pie littered around so he could get back to a body from various situations ...
I can understand why Voldemort wanted more Horcruxes - if he only made one then it was destroyed he'd be back to square one. Considering two have already been destroyed, it's probably lucky that he did make extras. But if he doesn't "use" them then the quote I placed previously makes absolutely no sense. Why would he need to "embrace mortal life" if he is already immortal only because his Horcruxes exist?
Either this topic will never be agreed upon as there is good reasoning behind both - or we will have to wait for two years for the answer. :p
I would think if the existing Horcruxes only had to "be" in order for him to be immortal, it would seem that he was either mistaken in what part they actually played in his experiments, or there was something else taken from him the night he attacked Harry and the spell rebounded that he needed to get back in order for the Horcruxes to work properly, and he couldn't get that part back until he first had a body. What were his old strengths and what did he have to do to get them back? Did he consider his Horcruxes his strength? Too many questions!
This would explain why he was so desperate to hear the rest of the prophecy!
He decided he needed his body back so that he could get all of his death eaters back to get it! What good is he floating around as less than a spirit? Even though the copy of the prophecy at the Ministry was destroyed, he still knew that Dumblefore would have remembered it. Odd that he wanted Dumbledore dead isn't it? Unless he's planning to abduct Threlawny, and torture her, but it would have been far easier to have Malfoy bring in the death eaters and kidnap her wouldn't it?
He does mention that it's all basically experimentation in GOF, and it is, because no one has split their soul more than once, so he's in unchartered terroritory. He probably did not know that his body would go away. He's got to find a way to 'fix' it so that his body doesn't disappear on him.
I suppose another thing I would point to for used ... the boat in the cave.
If he just had to place them and leave them - then he could have taken the boat away.
Think about it - he could swim across there - the infiri are under his control ... so why leave the boat - even if he was just going to check up on them?
It is clear that in order to get access to that horcrux you needed that magical little boat - remove the boat and you have added another significant step in keeping the horcrux safe.
Of course it all leads back to - if you needed to get access - you would leave the boat - if you just wanted to check in periodically - you could have bought your own boat to the party ... ;)
Imagine how much more complex it would have been to get to that Horcrux if he didnt leave the boat :rolleyes:
yarvelling
14-08-2005, 22:58
Yes, why even have a boat....if the horcrux was supposed to be hidden away? If it's to act as a 'test' for a good wizard to find the horcrux, then surely a wizard would at very least be expected to apparate to the island.......
The Island is probably like Hogwarts, you can't apparthiate there.
Chapter 26, The Cave pg 563 US Edition:
(Harry) "Is this boat safe?"
"Oh Yes, I think so. Voldermort needed to create a means to cross the lake without attracting the wrath of those creatures he had placed within in case he ever wanted to visit or remove his Horcrux"(Dumbledore)
4 Paragraphs later:
"Voldermort would have been reasonably confident that none but a very great wizzard would have been able to find the boat," "I think he would have been prepared to risk what was, to his mind, the most unlikely possibility that somebody else would find it, knowing he had set other obstacles ahead that only he would be able to penetrate. We shall see whether he is right."
I don't think JKR would have put all of that in if the boat mattered much, other than Voldermort wasn't expecting an underage wizzard along on the trip. It's making me wonder if R.A.B made it out alive even, but that is another thread.
What is interesting here is Dumbledore saying:
Voldermort needed to create a means to cross the lake without attracting the wrath of those creatures he had placed within in case he ever wanted to visit or remove his Horcrux"(
This shows that maybe Voldermort isn't in control of the creatures in the water, I take it to mean he is really afraid of them because they are dead after reading the rest of the page. And he just says incase he wants to visit or remove the horcrux, not access or activate or use it.
Also in getting back to the Used/Exist debate, on Page 497 the memory of Slughorn:
Slughorn: "Well you split your soul, you see, and hide part of it in an object outside the body. Then, even if one's body is attacked or destroyed, one cannot die, for part of the soul remains earthbound and undamaged. But, Of course, existence in such a form........
Slughorn's face crumpled and Harry found himself remembering the words he had heard nearly two years before: "I was ripped from my body, I was less than a spirit, less then the meanest ghost..but still, I was alive."
Pg 500 "You think he succeded then, sir?, He made a horcrux? And that's why he didn't die when he attacked me? He had a horcrux hidden somewhere? A bit of his soul was safe?"
"A bit.... or more," Said Dumbledore
Here Dumbledore goes on to explain that it is his theory that Voldermort had meant for Harry to be his 6th and final horcrux, but Harry wasn't killed so that plan was foiled, and it's his theory that when Voldermort killed the muggle man, Frank the caretaker, he produced his 6th and final horcrux from THAT murder, and used Nagini.
So he was able to make a horcrux without having his body fully back, so I was mistaken in thinking that Nagini's vemon was more powerful because she was a horcrux, her venom and the Unicorn blood and a couple of spells he invented brought him back to the crude existence before she became a horcrux.
And he also explains that the remainder left inside of Voldermorts body isn't a horcrux Pg 503
"But firstly, no, Harry, not seven horcruxes: Six/ The seventh part of his soul, however maimed, resides inside his regenerated body. That is the part of him that lived a spectral existence for so many years during his exile; without that, he has no self at all.
In light of all of this, I really think they just have to exist somewhere outside of his body to work.
OK - the Slughorn quote was the most compelling case of exist - thanks very much, I mean that as well!! :D
The last quote - if I read it right ... the 6 horcruxes keep that last remaining piece of soul intact?
Regardless of vessel - the Horcruxes sustain the last fragment - in a state matters not - as long as the final part of him exists?
You know what - you are one smart cookie - you got me to see the case for exist :o :D
Well - I guess I will adapt to exist - and then re-address some of my other posts ... and I will of course look out for 'used' just on the off-chance :D
Also, when Dumbledore tells Harry something along the lines of Voldermort has been so busy tearing his soul apart, that he failed to realize the power of an unsplit soul, I thought it probably wouldnt' be possible for Voldermort to go around, activate all of the horcruxes, and get his whole soul back inside of his body, once it's torn, it's torn. If someone kills and does not make a horcruix, I wonder if that part of soul just leaves their body and goes away.....
Actually you just tripped upon another thread idea I was tinkering with ...
When Voldemort called for the first time his Horcruxes - as in the night he should have died - he was reduced to a spirit ...
When in CoS - Riddle was sucking out Ginny's - shall we say soul?
As such - when Harry stabbed the diary - Ginny got her soul back and the essence that was building for the dying Ginny faded and dissaperead ...
But did the soul piece that was destroyed by Harry just vanish - or did it slope off somewhere like his older self after hsi body was destroyed?
Just a few thoughts to ponder while I furiously read HBP looking for used :o
Sirius Potter Fan
16-08-2005, 13:40
wow!
I come back and find all my arguments made for me!!! Thanks Piper!
Blaise, you should start that thread, (if you haven't already) that is something I have been curious about as well, kind of addressed in my "two Voldemorts" thread, but not quite that side of it. and. . . good luck on the "used" search! :p
Started a thread on the possible off-topic :p
I would like to pick up on the following ...
Then, even if one's body is attacked or destroyed, one cannot die, for part of the soul remains earthbound and undamaged
I'm not sure that does prove exist ... sorry :o
All it says is part of the soul remains earthbound and undamaged ... that can be read two ways ..
1. At least one part of the split soul remained so it could be used ...
2. As least one part of the split soul remained so it could channelled from in a battery kind of scenario
Heavily implied it could mean that as long as one exists ... but still can be taken the other way :o
I think there is a reason that JKR didn't wrap this up and nail it down ...
Padma Patil
07-10-2005, 13:33
Ok, first of all, to whoever had the fraction quesiton the biggest portion would be 1/2, then 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, and then the smallest piece would be 1/128. Thats in fractions, I could do it in percetages if you wanted. Lets just say the smallest piece would be 0.78125%. That would be the part that is left in the body. So what if this theory is right? What if as Harry fights the horcruxs they get easier to defeat. Or I should say as he fights the ones Voldemort made later in life they get easier?
Any who, I voted for exist. Mainly because its how I got the impression.
what if V could control how much of his soul was torn though?
if he knew he was making seven horcruxes, couldn't he choose to split it in sevenths?
or if the pieces are smaller as he progressed, and harry is a horcrux, wouldn't that make him the second smallest? third smallest if he made nagini one later...
wouldn't it then be safe to assume he could remove the piece from himself without too much damage?
I would tend to agree with the diminishing soul theory ...
I'm not sure Voldemort could have equally split the pieces of his soul - and this of course could have implications.
If you assume he rips his soul in half with each killing - then the first Horcruxes are in fact the most powerful.
Looking more into that theory - the ring would have been a major loss as well as the diary - both would have been made very early on.
And thus you can use this to explain why every Horcrux is so important - because as the more powerful ones are removed - the ones that are left could have issues generating his back to maximum power.
Lets assume Harry takes out the first 4 - I propose that the combined power of the remaining three would only have been as equal to the initial one - ergo you remove any of the last three and I'm not sure there would be enough to generate him back to life in a manner that made him still effective.
He would be greatly weakened!
If this was an equal 7 split - then each piece is just as powerful and thus the loss of each piece may hurt him - but he still has equally powerful pieces distributed elsewhere.
I think it add's a level of excitement to the story to have each Horcrux 'weighted' more stronger or weaker than another piece ... it means that the stronger ones were probably better hidden and protected.
The diminishing soul theory actually fits if Harry is a Horcrux. we know that Voldemort had already made several Horcruxes before he went after Harry, so if the theory is correct, and Harry is indeed a Horcrux, then the piece of soul in him wouldn't not be a very big one, and I would argue that IF this happened, it wasn't done properly, and Harry might have received the smaller of the pieces.
It really does explain their connection, and why Dumbledore believes LV left something of himself in Harry that night - like the ability to speak Parseltongue.
And would also make extraction a little easier and also explain why the soul fragment didn't try taking control of Harry like the Horcrux Diary!
We have a post - not sure the title where we discussed this with the Eye of Horus theory which fits in perfectly in this situation ... and might also lend weight to used versus exist :p
I'm not totally defeated on the premise of use - I still think this unwritten clarity is for a reason - perhaps a good question we can ask JKR - is a Horcrux used or do they just exist ...
OK, feeble I know - weight is in the exist camp :rolleyes:
SnarkologyMajor
30-12-2005, 05:10
That could be a better question than No. 2 on her FAQ poll-although they are probably related to each other.:D I don't know Alz-somehow feel that any part of a soul is going to have some part of free will that all human souls have, and frankly I would think that would be one of the factors that would come back to bite you in the butt:D -When you make the decision to split your soul at all.
See what you suggest is that the split soul fragment becomes sentient?
Or is it based on where it is stored?
The diary contained the thoughts and views of Riddle - you suggest that the soul fragment absorbed this knowledge and adapted?
Could this same premise to attached to H is a H and the soul fragment contained in him could be the hardest to remove based on it sharing part of Harry as well as the soul portion of Voldemort?
Sorry - seems a little digression from used versus exist - I am still very keen to hear how you all saw the use of the Horcruxes?
SnarkologyMajor
31-12-2005, 04:01
Well this is one that's worth some real investigation!:D I must admit that I just took it for granted that each soul piece would behave like the diary horcrux, but this is obviously more complicated than that. Jo could take this two ways-each soul piece is equal in power or each piece gets weaker as it's size diminishes-Which is what you all were discussing that I wasn't quite grasping-duh!:D (sorry)
To further complicate the issue-would the time during the course of his life when Voldemort split his soul factor in here-I mean in addition to 1/2 to 1/4's to 1/8's, etc..The diary was a larger piece of soul but this was done early in his life. He has become increasingly more powerful and evil so would it matter if the soul pieces became smaller and smaller? My feeling here is that it is so unnatural to split the essence of who you are-that each piece would retain some of that essence and free will. Even though the nature of making horcruxes makes it completely irreversible-wouldn't nature dictate that each soul piece would be attracted to each other like a magnet? Forever fractured yet seeking-this is the paradox. The times when Harry has left his mind to connect w/Voldemort seems to be an indication of this at least to me.
Also the objects that Voldemort has chosen seem to have powers of their own-we know the locket had powers of Salazar that Hepzibah seemed to be afraid of-and the cup(if it was used) also had powers that we don't know about. As evidenced by the cave, Voldemort has taken extreme measures to protect his horcruxes-could this also be to contain them?
I may have confused more than helped-but this is a difficult one to try to figure out!:D I Love It! I will hazard a guess and say that the answer to J.K.R.'s FAQ #2 is-yes, it involves more than the destruction of the object. I'm still voting for it though because she's been really good about giving us very detailed answers on her FAQ guestions.:D
Well, I must say I really can connect to the idea that Voldemort placed spells on his horcruxes to contain the soul, as well as protect it! If SnarkologyMajor is correct and they have a magnetic attraction to each other, Voldemort would need a spell that hid each Horcrux from the next - and just my way out idea, perhaps the only way to do that is contain ihs split pieces inside the soul of another person, hence having to kill to make a horcrux.
It would explain why Voldemort wouldn't know they were being destroyed too, because the spell performed would have essentially cut his remaining soul off from the rest. And indeed, it explains Voldemort's need to place them in objects of importance to him. He'd need to remember for a start, what he put them in, and he would need to know that no one would throw them away. That if by chance they were discovered, they would be seen as objects of great value and not just trash.
I am sorry to say however, this theory supports both used and existed...if used, he'd need the spell to be reversible, and the case of my theory, all he would need to do is remove the encasing soul, and in the 'exist' theory, having them kept as heirlooms means his soul would be forever passed on.
SnarkologyMajor
02-01-2006, 02:41
It does seem as though his horcruxes can be used-just not by Voldemort himself. I don't think J.K.R. would ever make the splitting of the soul reversible, once done it is split for eternity. If the diary horcrux would have achieved it's goal by stealing Ginny's soul-it would have become a solid body, doesn't that seem like a real detriment to Voldemort's original piece of soul left? Wouldn't it be out of the control of Voldemort? Very confusing this is:eek: I guess this is why I was thinking that he may be containing his soul pieces as much as protecting them-and I can sure see why Voldemort is majorly peeved w/Lucius Malfoy!
JKR did comment on the matter if the diary had succeded - I found that interesting!
I'm not sure the horcruxes are naturally attracted to each other - afterall Voldemort would want them dispersed and well away from each other - although it is possible a force inside could make them attract contra to Voldemort's will - almost a side effect?
I think the books lead a massive amount of weight to exist but there is a few of us that after reading HBP automatically assumed used - now why would that be? Could it be just people not picking up the clues right or is there room there for the debate - and if there is doesnt that make you wonder if the minority thought might be the one JKR tried to conceal?
SnarkologyMajor
03-01-2006, 04:36
It certainly does make me wonder-and sets the wheels aturnin-oh no! You know given what we do know about the diary and the fact that we never got the story on Dumbledore's hand-I'd say it leans towards used. I just hope J.K.R. gives us a really detailed answer on FAQ 2-although #1 seemed to be winning last time I checked:(
Ok - I want people's thoughts on this ... I might have read it wrong or drawn wrong conclusions ...
Are Horcruxes used to keep someone alive - as in you have to find one and extract the soul piece ...?
or
Do they just have to exisit and be in tact and thus will keep the soul alive and able to ressurect someone?
We recently touched upon this again in The Diary thread - I figured we could throw this back open - the debate of used versus exist.
Just to re-tell some history - when I first read HBP - I genuinely put the book down thinking that the Horcruxes were used - came on here and started to post - then someone came back and said they weren't used, they just have to exist - and thus the thread was born.
While the evidence supports more in favour of exists - I think there is some real credibility to used because of the Diary - DISCUSS :D
halliemei
27-04-2006, 16:47
Don't remember how I voted, as this happened a while back . . . however. I think that it only takes a horcrux to EXIST for VM to be immortal. To bring him back, however, I think that either the original soul/spirit has to be regenerated (as happened with Wormtail and tried to happen with the Sorcerer's Stone) or another piece must be "activated" through the use of the horcrux. I think that either can happen. If I am wrong, I don't understand at all how the diary was working with Ginny.
Don't remember how I voted, as this happened a while back . . . however. I think that it only takes a horcrux to EXIST for VM to be immortal. To bring him back, however, I think that either the original soul/spirit has to be regenerated (as happened with Wormtail and tried to happen with the Sorcerer's Stone) or another piece must be "activated" through the use of the horcrux. I think that either can happen. If I am wrong, I don't understand at all how the diary was working with Ginny.
See this is what caught me into the Use argument - I am a massive fan of the whole Chamber of Secrets events and when I read HBP - this is what made me think straight away used.
I think it is highly possible that he worked out that by having so many parts of him split that by making one or two also be re-generative by proxy - as in inhabit a new host - he almost added fail safe into his plan.
We saw that he has no idea what would happen if the horcruxes were ever called into effect - he didn't expect what happened to him - I just wonder if his quest to find out about Horcruxes also left him with a little dilemma and so he took extra steps - by having one horcrux that was capable of giving him a body if he ever was killed - he could just try and direct someone to that horcrux and get a body ....?
There is a couple of threads on the chamber/diary thing - it is a real contradiction to what he was trying to do that diary - and I am pretty sure that it is still very important overall and the case of the diary isn't closed!
I voted yes in the original poll but, the threads on this site show it is impossible to come up with a concrete and simple yes or no answer to the discussions we have about potterverse. There is evidence that shows both, which means they can created to be used or exist, (If it was just used or just exists, JKR made some huge mistakes in the overall plot - Alz, please don't deactivate my account for suggesting that!:o ) I guess it just depends on your own point of view. Its a question i'd love JKR to answer. Most of the stuff I can think of would point towards exists, although there is one huge piece of evidence, that to me, suggests otherwise i.e book two!
It would seem to me that LV kept the fact that he had made horcruxes secret i.e - none of the D/E locate a horcrux after his 'death', they just look for HIM. LV may have convinced the D/E he WAS immortal, being all powerful/scary etc, but not WHY. If they can be used he would surely have let a D/E in on the fact that if his body was destroyed (or his bodily functions diminished through old age), all they had to do was collect a horcrux for him to regenerate.
When LV finds and possess/shares Quirrells body, if they can be used, why does he not try to locate a horcrux to regenerate instead of trying to steal the philiosphers stone?
Why are (most) of the Horcruxes protected so much if they can be used (although I love the idea of them being 'contained' to conceal the soul pieces from each other), the fact that the horcuxes are still 'accessible' is just so LV can check up on his horcruxes or move them to a different location if anything is compromised.
IF HiaH, why doesn't that part of LV soul posess/share Harrys body i.e Harry becomes LV.
If DD is right in saying that LV cannot detect when a horcrux/soul piece has been destroyed because those parts of his soul have been detached from his body for so long, how could one be used to regenerate him.
and DD Quote from HBP;
'But firstly, no, Harry, not seven horcruxes: Six/ The seventh part of his soul, however maimed, resides inside his regenerated body. That is the part of him that lived a spectral existence for so many years during his exile; without that, he has no self at all.'
i.e no horcrux was used to regenerate LV, and the remaing part of LV soul is the part that retains his 'being'. (DD is wrong or JKR made a blooper, see below)
BUT......................................... How does the diary retain LV memories? And how can that soul piece posess Ginny and open the CoS/speak parseltounge etc if the piece in his regenerated body is the only part that retains LV being, and horcruxes only exist? The whole of book CoS suggets that a horcrux can infact be created in a way to be used but most of LV's have been created to exist. Maybe more complicated magic is needed to produce a 'usable' horcrux........
We could have a poll with a vote for A)Used B)Exist and C)Both. I'd vote for C!!!!!
cagedcactus
04-09-2006, 10:19
We could have a poll with a vote for A)Used B)Exist and C)Both. I'd vote for C!!!!!
I agree with that statement.
I voted exist. But would like to think both.
Voldemort came back in fourth year. At first I thought that he would need to use up a horcrux to do that. But then being a HINAH supporter ;) I didnt see that happening.
Your COS theory is also very interesting and raises a flag that can be answered only if the option "BOTH" is true.
that soul fragment existed, and was used too.
The wording from JKR suggests exist - so I suppose if you take it as literal then I suppose we have the answer.
I suppose I would also use that as support Voldemort has not created any more horcruxes since - afterall if they just have to exist then I am sure he belives the loss of one wouldnt hurt compared to the other 4 he has ... after all we have to assume that he never managed the 7 part soul ... well HiaH suggests he did but he wasnt aware ...
From reading the posts it would seem that the idea of percentage of the soul put in the horcrux enables the horcrux to behave in different ways. The first horcruxes might be called "major" because of soul content, and the latter ones "minor" because of soul content. Major horcruxes would include the diary and the ring.
The major horcruxes seem to be very powerful in addition to their being holding vessels. The ring had a powerful negative effect on Dumbledore, the diary had a powerful negative effect on Ginny. I would submit that they did so because of their soul content and the minor horcruxes do not have this side effect.
I think that you make a horcrux and then hide it: its existance is its function. You leave a means of checking up on it but only for your own peace of mind. If your horcrux is the first you made, it effects its surroundings because of the high percentage of soul in it. Successive horcruxes become less powerful, so the first ones are important to hide..
Leaving a horcrux in the care of someone else is not a good idea, especially if the person does not know what it is- he might give it away and it might be destroyed because of his carelessness...
I vote for exist. But it would seem that the first ones, the more powerful ones can also be used.
Padma Patil
27-10-2006, 08:23
okay, if a horcrux can be used, then wouldn't that imply that once it is used it no longer exists. So if hiah and Voldy used him to regenerate in GoF, than Harry would no longer be a horcrux. (Personally I'm a fan of hinah...)
I voted for exist originally. Though I don't know if I'm going to stick by it. If all that is required is for a horcrux to exist, than one would think that Voldy would have come back immeadiatly instead of turning into something 'less than the meaningest ghost'. But if horcruxes are used, then I'm thinking that LV gave himself seven lives so to speak. Kind of like a cat has nine lives...(who came up with that anyway?). Once he uses all seven horcruxes than he has nothing left and can die. Though Harry is kinda helping him out by destroying them before LV can use them.
Okay, getting off topic... somebody else's turn... :D
secret seeker
27-10-2006, 18:18
I remember Dumbledore telling Harry that the diary was to be used also as a weapon, could this be the protection that voldemort placed in the diary to make sure it wasnt destroyed?.
The ring was an innanimate object, the diary however was interactive and capable of learning, so would all the other horcrux's if they are able to communicate. The diary was only able to communicate through writing until it had taken enough of Ginnys life force and the fragment of soul had enough " life " to manifest. I remember Dumbledore telling Harry that the reason a person who has a Horcrux would'nt die is because a piece of their soul is still earth bound, meaning that if Voldemort has placed a Horcrux in cement foundations of a new building for example, Harrys f****d.
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