Riddles knowledge of Horcruxes

[Sirius Potter Fan]

Yah this interested me - wasn't sure to make a thread or what ...
Where did Riddle go to finish off his learning on the Horcruxes spell?
We know he used it pretty soon after Slughorn gave him the low-down - but it was never stated exactly how the charm was done - any incantation etc etc ...
How or where did Riddle find this information?

I think this does need it's own thread, because it can bear on alot of different theories floating around. In the memories of Slughorn, both of them have Riddle coming to Sluggy and asking him about Horcruxes, so Riddle had to have found some information somewhere on them, and I would assume instructions on performing whatever it took. It may not have been as simple as a spell, but I think more like a ritual similar to the one that brought Voldemort back to his body in GoF. So where did he get the information?

I think it possible that there was information in the chamber of Secrets, a book or maybe even a memory in a pensive that instructed the heir in what they should do, maybe a just-in-case-the-basilisk-looks-you-in-the-eye kind of precaution.

[Alz]

My mind went back to the Chamber of Secrets.
I wondered if there was something in there that either gave him the tip - or actually gave him the lowdown?
I mean - there was a lot of information given from Slughorn - but nothing about EXACTLY how the spell was done.
I think there is relevance in how it is performed - thus why JKR never gave us any insight ... and this of course could all mean the night of the attack ;)

[kashlie]

I am glad I was right in this...
The diary was made when he was 16, so obviously his first attempt, and after Slughorn told him about the horcruxes.
But...Slughorn didn't give him all the information he needed. What if Slughorn did not give Harry or Dumbledore a complete memory, or, somewhere in the Chamber, Riddle found books with 'how to' in them, but not 'how many'...

(What is scary is that the diary almost allowed Voldemort to return, so what of the other Horcruxes?)

Slughorn's information essentially led to the death of Tom Riddle snr, and the grandparents.
Is he as innocent as he makes out to be?

I am split on this (ha ha no pun intended) over the information being in the Chamber, or Slughorn not giving a full memory to Harry and DD...


A quick after thought...what if the diary was the last horcrux he made? what if it contained the knowledge of the whereabouts of the other six? or of course, if it was the first one he made, it could have contained the knowledge of what he was planning on using...

And why did Malfoy have this one? Did he know about the Horcruxes? but thats for another thread...

[Sirius Potter Fan]

As far as Sluggy's memory goes, I think that he gave it all. for two reasons, one, that he was so drunk I don't think he had the presence of mind to alter or shorten it. two, Sluggy in the true memory seemed shocked that Riddle would even ask about creating more than one Horcrux, as it would mean murdering more than one, and he seemed genuinely revolted at the idea of doing even one, so I am sure he wouldn't have told Riddle "how to"

[Alz]

I'm just wondering if Riddle has the know how - but not the knowledge of it ...
As in, while he was in the chamber he came across some directions to Horcruxes - but not what it actually was and did ...
As such - he wanted to find out more - books wouldnt give him what he wanted so he went to Slughorn - his information filled the blanks - he then knew what it was for and also armed whith how to do it - he proceeded?

I'm sure it was explained about the Diary - Voldemort gave it to Lucius and told him to conceal it - not actually explaining what it was for.
Lucius used the diary in an effort to frame Arthur - not because he knew what it was and how it worked ...
I will see if I can find the exact text but sure it went something like that ...

[Sirius Potter Fan]

Lucius used the diary in an effort to frame Arthur - not because he knew what it was and how it worked ...
I will see if I can find the exact text but sure it went something like that ...
Yes Blaise that is what was said. He wanted it out of the way because of all the raids. He had it with him in knockturn alley, but I think decided at the last minute to try and frame Aurthur by planing it with Giny instead. I don't think he really knew what it was at all. . . but then. . .How would Dobby have known something was going to happen concerning Harry? hmmmm. . .

[yarvelling]

Yes SPF, this is something that I've never seen answered...just HOW did Dobby know that it would be Riddle that came to attack the school? Remember he even hinted at Riddle when he told Harry that it's "not Not He That Must Not be Named...".
House elves are said to be possessing their own powerful magic; could that include legillimency?
Did Lucius in fact know what the diary was and had he actually planned to deposit it on a student during his trip to Diagon Alley? Thus, could Dobby have read his thoughts? Would he then perhaps have knowledge of Horcruxes?

As for Slughorn; I don't feel comfortable with him.....I don't trust him....I think theres a bit more be found out in the next book. I get the feeling that his self-inportance and desire for mingling in 'elite' company may have led him to making some pretty bad 'mistakes' in the past; it is possible that he DOES know more about the nature of and how to make Horcruxes. He is after all a very accomplished potions expert, and may in the past have delved deeper into the dark side of the art, much as Snape had done. Also, he is one of the few people that actually even knows of the existance of the Horcrux; he may have indeed told Riddle more than we've been told so far...another reason that he may have been reluctant to let DD have the knowledge of his discussion with Riddle....there's more hidden away that he is afraid will come out - especially if he is under the influence of alchohol!!

[kashlie]

Lucius knew the diary was Voldemorts, and probably knew it had strange powers. I doubt he would have known it was a horcrux - too precious to try and frame someone with.

Now, where did Lucius actually get it from? I don't remember if he'd had it for a while, or if he perhaps bought it. It could have been something that was stolen, and as a loyal supporter, Lucius bought it to keep it safe (ha ha)...

now we are off track...

I don't trust Slughorn either. I think he is too easily swayed and that may go against the Order in book 7.
Riddle knew more about the horcruxes because of Slughorn, so i wonder what other information Riddle may have gotten from him.

[Alz]

"No doubt he thought that Lucius would not dare do anything with the Horcrux other than guard it carefully, but he was counting too much upon Lucius's fear of a master who had been gone for years and whom Lucius believed dead. Of course, Lucius did not know what the diary really was. I understand that Voldemort had told him the diary would cause the Chamber of Secrets to reopen because it was cleverly enchanted. Had Lucius known he held a piece of his masters soul in his hands, he would undoubtebly have treated it with more reverance - but instead he went ahead and carried out the old plan for his own ends: By planting the diary upon Arthur Weasley's daughter, he hoped to discredit Arthur and get rid of a highly incriminating magical object in one stroke.

Think that pretty much covers that aspect :p

[Fortescue]

Nice quote, Blaise :)

Yep, Dumbledore also said that Lucius was safer in Azkaban because Voldemort was furious with him. First, he, Voldemort left the diary in Malfoy's possession for guarding and he gave it to Ginny, and it was ultimately destroyed, then the prophecy was smashed that Lucius was apparently responsible for recovering once Harry picked it up. Lucius had no idea what was in the diary he possessed, if he had he would have possibly had a one up on Voldemort.

In the graveyard, didn't Voldemort call Lucius his slippery friend? Sounds like Voldemort knew Lucius was a Death Eater of opportunity, and Lucius thought he could get rid of the diary so he wasn't caught with it, ruin Arthur Weasley, and open the Chamber all at the same time. But he definitely had no idea it had a bit of Voldemort's soul in it.

[Alz]

You can see now why he didnt mind setting Draco the task - if he passed it all good - if he didnt - would show to the Malfoy's that Voldemort was still da man :D

I am still wondering if the Horcruxes was another item he learned about in the Chamber?
I mean - it is never really touched upon how much time Riddle spent in there - what he saw, what he learnt ...

[Fortescue]

I am still wondering if the Horcruxes was another item he learned about in the Chamber?
I mean - it is never really touched upon how much time Riddle spent in there - what he saw, what he learnt ...

Doesn't the thought of Riddle sneaking off to the Chamber remind you of Draco and his secret job in the Room of Requirements?

I would assume there was all types of information left in the Chamber by Slytherin. Why else would Voldemort leave a diary for someone else to continue Slytherin's noble work? That had to involve more than killing Mudbloods! It would seem there would be more Dark Arts type stuff down there considering Slytherin's persona as the "Dark" one of the four founders, which has carried over to the present day Slytherin House and its students. If you think of the possibilities and where Voldemort could have initially learned about something like creating Horcruxes and splitting his soul, it's really the only logical place he could have learned, and Horcruxes would definitely be old magic!

[Alz]

On an off point - would have made a great place to stash a horcrux right ;)
Makes you wonder why the likes of Salazar never left Horcruxes I suppose - but I think he would certainly know about them and represents a good possible in Voldemort's education in the missing parts of his knowledge.
I wonder if the sequenced worked along the lines he found how to create Horcruxes from the Chamber - but didnt know what they were for.
It was with that he spoke with Slughorn ... maybe even after looking in the books ...?

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I believe it quite likely that Riddle learned of Horcruxes in the chamber, just makes sense, that is, unless the old theory of Grindewald being in contact with him in his youth is out of the question. the neat part, is that Harry also has access to the chamber. could we find Harry in book 7 doing some exploring?

[gumshoe]

Ooh, this is a meaty one! Some key points as I see it:

-- Riddle killed his father and grandparents before the Slughorn conversation -- he was wearing the ring in the memory.

-- He was 16 when he opened the Chamber in June 1943, and he was a Prefect (not Head Boy) in the Horcruxes memory, and he graduated in 1945, and he was born New Year's Eve, and he was 16 as he appeared in the diary.

-- It follows then that: he opened the Chamber and the basilisk killed Myrtle 6/43; he killed the Riddles on summer break; he had the conversation asking HOW to make Horcruxes after September 1 of 1943 and before his 17th birthday during Christmas break; AND sometime between the conversation and his birthday, he figured out how to make a Horcrux, and made two or possibly three (one for each murder, the last being the unknown Horcrux that he perhaps LOST at Hogwarts, hence his reason for wanting to get back in there).

-- Incidentally, I think he made the ring first, as he isn't wearing it in the diary.

If I'm right, then this is incredible, because there's really only a very narrow window of time in which he could have figured out how to do it. We know he didn't know how when he talked to Slughorn, but within a few months, he'd done it at least twice. This also narrows down the possible means to the information.

I have two ideas to add to where and how he got the information (I like the Chamber idea and the Room of Requirement idea, especially with the Vanishing Cabinets):

1) Grindelwald, or some "representative" of Grindelwald, or some other wicked individual -- Tom would likely have discovered how to get out of the school during his 5 year search for the Chamber; Tom didn't have money but managed to get crystalised pineapple from Slughorn; Slughorn buys c.p. at Honeyduke's in HBP; ergo Tom very possibly was breaking into Honeyduke's and stealing the pineapple, and had access to Hogsmeade, where who-knows-who told him how.

2) Eileen Prince -- She was Snape's mother, quite possibly a Slytherin, her book was 50 years old in 1996 so she would be 2 years younger than Riddle. She very well could have assisted him in some way. Snape came to Hogwarts as "just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts." Especially likely if Eileen Prince is Madam Pince, the up-and-coming librarian who probably knows just where and how to find such info, even if it was banned. (Hermione was able to find a reference to Horcruxes despite the ban.)
This is a tad off topic but beefs up the Eileen/Tom connection: It's especially likely for Madam Pince to be Eileen Prince in light of the "Half-Blood Prince" name, if she told Snape that she'd helped/seen young Tom Riddle in the library in his search for records of his father.

gumshoe

[Piper]

WOW. This is very good.


Grindlewald fits, because he was not killed until 1945. And JKR says this is important, the date is not a conicidence, she wanted us to understand that the Muggle wars and Wizard wars were related. So at the time that Riddle was in Hogwarts, there was a Wizard war going strong, plenty of bad people from whom to learn dark arts information.


Very nice work also on determining the age of Snape's mother, and that she would have attended Hogwarts with Voldermort! And remember what a charmer he was, all of the girls probably fell all over him, he probably could have gotten any information out of Eileen that he wanted. If JKR hadn't shot down that Voldermort didn't have children, I would really be wondering about Snapes father here. Of Snape, in PoA, Lupin made the comment that Snape new more dark magic than most 7th years upon arrival at Hogwarts.

Also interesting here, it appears you do not have to immediately do the spell after the kill to make the Horcrux as I had assumed.

[Alz]

I think Grindelwald fits in very nicely here ...
I mean, Dark Lords and all - I should imagine Riddle took a great deal of interest in Grindelwald - because he might have been thinking of that part on life already.
It was always assumed that Grindelwald might have been the one to give Voldemort all his past history - we can see there is still room for that but more came from his own deductions.
I wonder if Grindelwald was linked into Salazar as well?
If so - perhaps he might have had a chance to browse the CoS when he was about - there might even be new things he added?

[gumshoe]

Thank you, Piper! I like Grindelwald, too, although it almost seems to be a long shot compared to Eileen Prince, especially if she's Madam Pince. The hole in that, I think, is the ban on Horcruxes at Hogwarts. No matter how much she'd know about the contents of the library, if it's not there because of the ban, then it's not findable there. Unless there was something in her private collection. Hmm.

Or unless Tom was marching around in front of the troll tapestry, saying to himself, "I wish I could find out how to make a Horcrux!" (That's a bone for you, Blaise.)

When I first thought about this, Grindelwald made so much sense to me, or someone who was connected to him. I love thinking that Tom's sneaking out of Hogwarts and into Hogsmeade brought him into contact with someone wicked who could give him the dirt on Horcruxes. Especially if it's Aberforth. (Really? Nah...Well?...) I mean, there's got to be a reason that JK showed that Tom had no money and that Tom gave Slughorn the pineapple. It seems we must conclude he was getting out whenever he wanted.

I think narrowing down the time to that teeny window of opportunity should help us determine a lot of things about them -- for example, as you said, Piper, you don't have to murder and immediately make the Horcrux. You can commit the murder and make the soul split, and then parcel it out whenever you feel like it. It also gives him such a narrow range of options for where he learned how and from whom, because it's during the fall term and he's therefore limited to Hogwarts and Hogsmeade (he wouldn't have been able to Apparate; he'd have been ineligible for the lessons the previous spring).

As much as I like Grindelwald for it, is that good enough to be the lace that ties up the series? Because if it's a WHO that he got the information from, it's a biggie, and I can't see that having the right punch. Someone allied with Grindelwald, like Aberforth maybe, would; or another person like Eileen, being Snape's mother. Otherwise, it's got to be the RoR.

gumshoe

[Piper]

As much as I like Grindelwald for it, is that good enough to be the lace that ties up the series? Because if it's a WHO that he got the information from, it's a biggie, and I can't see that having the right punch. Someone allied with Grindelwald, like Aberforth maybe, would; or another person like Eileen, being Snape's mother. Otherwise, it's got to be the RoR.

Oh I think it's good enough. Grindelwald is prounouced GrindelVald, IE German. JKR says that was not a coincidence. As for someone that could tie it all together,
Igor Karkaroff comes to mind. We don't know his age, but he was a Death Eater, and did teach at the Durmstrang Institute, which I assumed to be related to Germany, Krum I also assumed to be German. Lexicon doesn't really say though.

[The Frozen North]

Krum I also assumed to be German.


Maybe I'm being a bit obvious but who did Krum play for at the Quidich WCup?

[gumshoe]

Okay, I could go for the Karkaroff/Grindelwald connection. I knew the pronounciation, but I hadn't associated it with the Eastern Europeans who attended the Tournament.

I think Grindelwald, being the previous Dark Lord, is big enough; but in terms of the story and the players on the page, it almost seems too cheap to have it all come from Grindelwald.

It works beautifully with the "sins of the father" themes in the book -- or for Dumbledore's story arc. And Dumbledore's line about never really getting rid of evil, just keeping it at bay as long and well as possible; ie, he defeated the DL Grindelwald, but he persisted in his evil after his defeat.

Although his role in the Wizarding World's history (and therefore the Muggle World's) has been tremendous, Grindelwald's role in the story has been minor. That's why I didn't want to limit myself to assuming he must have been the one. But if we can sneak Karkaroff and company in there, then it feels more satisfying.

And I think Krum is a good guy. I got the impression that made his own choices, the good of the team/school/side of the good-evil fight not as important as what he thought was right. We saw it at the QWC and when Karkaroff was fawning all over him in the Great Hall and in choosing Hermione as a love interest -- not the shiniest jewel in the case like Fleur, but (as we ourselves know) probably the brightest. I'd entertain suspicions about him anyway. Guilty until proven innocent, I say!

gumshoe

[Alz]

Krum played for Bulgeria I believe?
I like the thinking from you all on this - but also Riddle did have access to the Chamber - I still feel that something that dark and evil could hold the secrets to the Horcrux ... ;)