Snape's hogwarts beginning

[Piper]

I was reading a thread yesterday, I cannot find it now :( but the discussion had turned to when Snape was initially hired, and it became established that he was hired before Harry was killed, because he had told Professor Umbridge that he had been teaching for 14 years at Hogwarts, and that time was added to the kill date for Harry's Parents, which was Halloween 1981.

Today I was scimming through OOTP and seen where Professor Trelawny told Umbridge that she had been teaching for 16 years, so probably that should be added to October 31, 1981, and it would mean that Snape was not hired until after Harry's death, right?

Sorry for starting a new thread, but I honestly cannot find the old one.

EDIT
HMMMM, Threlawny was hired in 1979 by Dumbledore according to Lexicon,
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/trelawney.html

and Snape was hired in 1981, prior to October, which would mean that he was hired before The Potters were killed.
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/snape.html

Strange thing here, the initial prophecy says:

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...

Maybe Voldermort had to wait until he was thrice defied, but it hasn't seemed to me like there was a 2 year gap between the prophecy and the killing of the Potters.

EDIT
Ok, here I go again posting for the third time, after reading the timetable at Lexicon:
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/main/timeline_1970-1990.html

It seems they are changing their story on Snape a little bit saying:

In October of 1995, Snape told Umbridge that he had been teaching at Hogwarts for 14 years, but unlike McGonagall, he did not specify the month. If Snape was speaking precisely, that would mean he was hired c. 1981 but before Voldemort's fall on the last night of October. If Snape was speaking loosely, he could have been hired in November or December.

[Fortescue]

I think Snape was at Hogwarts at the start of the school year. It would have looked suspicous had he started the school year midterm. He was probably already spying for Dumbledore before then.


Piper, please use your edit button when you want to add to a thought and no one has posted after you. It makes the site look much neater without several posts in a row from the same member. ;)

[Alz]

OK my understanding here ...

Snape had turned spy BEFORE Voldemort attacked the Potters.
Harry was just over 1 year old - born end of July - parents attacked and killed October 31st - Harry was a year and 3 months ...
Voldemort had to find the babies born as the 7th month dies - turns out that is Harry and Neville.
In order to make sense of the 'born as the 7th month dies' it would have to mean Dumbledore and Trelawney had the prophecy late year before or the same year - because if it was early the year before - Voldemort would have been looking at people born as the 7th month dies ...
This means from say August the year before all the way up to end of July that year - the Prophecy took place ... the words die and not died are used - future and not past tense :p
This plausibly means that Snape started Hogwarts the year that the Potters were killed - in the September start of term ...
That would mean maybe that the prophecy happened nearly 2 years before - becasue it would have to be in between the july's ...

Umm - did that make sense?

[gumshoe]

Piper, am I correct in understanding your original question? You seemed to wonder why there was such a gap between the prophecy and the death of the Potters. I agree that it's suspect and something to talk about. Here are my suppositions about the timeline itself, for the record.

I took it that Dumbledore hired Trelawney on the spot, to keep her away from Voldemort. She says 16 years; could the prophecy been given October 1979? It would fit with being after July, so the prophecy verb-tense would be accurate. I can even imagine Dumbledore having no Divination being taught until Trelawney, and him creating the post for her.

The Potters went into hiding the week before they were killed. I wondered if it was around that time (Oct 24, 1981) that Snape returned to Dumbledore. I can envision it being as early as September, but wouldn't Snape returning and bringing Dumbledore information be a possible reason for them to go "underground?" Although I think Fortesecue has a good point that starting Snape midterm would look fishy to say the least. Still, wasn't Dumbledore protecting Snape? Does it say anywhere that he's always been Potionsmaster? Maybe he worked down in the kitchens with the house-elves for a few months -- can't you just see it? :evil1:

Here's a twitchy little thing to add. Why was there an opening for the Potionsmaster position? Why did Slughorn leave? I think if we knew the answer to that, we could nail down Snape's start-date.

[(Side note, maybe not too tangental) Why did McGonagall start 39 years ago this December? That's December 1956. It was too early for Dumbledore to become Headmaster. Did Dumbledore switch to DADA, maybe? Or did McGonagall teach it until Dumbledore left Transfiguration vacant?]

Your initial question, Piper, seems to be along the lines of the missing 24 hours: what was Voldemort waiting for during the missing 15 months? I think you have a good starting point: that the Potters perhaps hadn't defied him three times.

gumshoe

[Alz]

It is most likely that Snape started in the September of the same year the Potters were attacked in October.
Sybil I would have thought would have started the September before as a teacher.

The DADA teachers job was cursed before these events - meaning each year a new teacher started.
Interesting pick up was indeed Potions - as in perhaps Snape replaced Slughorn in position.
I think that is also possible - Slughorn going to ground after hearing that the Dark Lord knew someone could kill him - and indeed Slughorn possibly thinking that he was the only one that knew Voldemort planned to use Horcruxes.
Think of it from Slughorns POV - Voldemort will set the prophecy in motion - Slughorn might have been the only person switched on enough to work out that Voldemort would use Horcruxes to ensure that he cant die - he becomes an instant target based on his closeness to Dumbledore and possiblities he could share what he knew.

EDIT


..Although i'm afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore - you see, he himself was seeking a job at the time and no doubt hoped to pick up tips! ...

OK, interesting here ...
Was that an excuse he used - or the lead Dumbledore used to get him on staff?
That could have ramifications - because he still went back and told Voldemort about the prophecy he overheard ... ummm

[gumshoe]

Dumbledore must have hired Trelawney on the spot. We know it was 79, we know it was cold, we know the prophecy put the 7th month in the future. I think she started mid-term, unless Scotland gets cold and wet in August.

I do think that it's likely that Snape had been sent to try to get the DADA position, and if he had gotten it, Voldemort's curse would have lifted from it. So it was true both that he was seeking a job AND a good justification for Dumbledore protecting him.

I just can't take it at face value that Snape started September 81. But if we can justify it, I'll bite.

It was when Snape realized that the Potters were targets that he returned to Dumbledore, so perhaps Voldemort figured it out summer 1981, and so Snape turning back to Dumbledore would coincide nicely with starting Sept 1. I'm so curious how this would have transpired, and I still can't help wondering about the timing of the Potters going into hiding, for surely they would have done this the moment Dumbledore told them that Snape had told HIM that Voldemort was zeroing in for the kill. If Dumbledore had been told by Snape prior to Sept 1, why did he wait 7 weeks to tell the Potters?

There should be a precipitating event for Dumbledore hiring Snape, such as him telling Dumbledore that Voldemort was ready to act on the prophecy, and it seems as much did transpire. But was it summer 81 or 10/24/81? The answer could come down to when Slughorn left an opening in the staff.

I think Slughorn didn't connect the dots about Voldemort and the Horcruxes until Dumbledore came asking, and I've worked out a very likely date for that being summer after GoF, or summer 1994. We know from the opening of OoP that Dumbledore wasn't able to fill the DADA position in time and so Umbridge came on staff. I think he went to Slughorn at that point, having put together the diary and Voldemort's return to body. So I don't hold Slughorn accountable for any deaths related to Voldemort until after that point, when he knew Dumbledore wanted info on Horcruxes and withheld it. (And I think he had reasons for withholding it, OT here.)
All this is background for WHY was there an opening for Potionsmaster in the first place? The one thing that makes most sense is that he left when Lily died. I don't think he knew anything about the prophecy -- if he did, he'd have to be a baddy, and I don't believe he is. And as clever as Slughorn is with connecting people up, he's lousy about putting two and two together for himself (it seems to me; the textbook is a perfect example) -- so I can't see him connecting that Voldemort knows he knows about Horcruxes around 80-81 and he goes underground. Besides, he's only been underground for a year when we first meet him.
Unless there's a stupid reason like "he just felt like retiring," which would be irritatingly mundane and unhelpful.

I hope this isn't wandering too far from Piper's first line of inquiry (I prefer to think of it in this case as expanding it!), but I think the whole 80-81 time line is crucial and littered with holes, as we can see by the Lexicon hopping around. And if any other players and their motivations are involved in determining the dates, it's even more important.

gumshoe

[Alz]

Ummm - I not sure why but I always got the feeling Voldemort had around a year to sit on the knowledge of the Prophecy and before picking his victim.
This would mean that Harry and Neville were born July and Sybil making her Prophecy maybe August/September time. Weather changes in UK around late August getting into September - rain and cold is possible ... it is colder first thing in the morning and late evening right now :p
That could mean she started that September - afterall I think no matter when it was Dumbledore wasnt about to leave her unprotected after what he heard, she would have been hired on the spot and taken to Hogwarts ASAP.
So maybe Snape was ordered by Voldemort to apply for the job in the following summer - thus him telling Dumbledore he is really sorry etc and setting in motion that part of the story?

[gumshoe]

So Blaise, you think that Trelawney's hire could be a precipitating event? I mean, that it led to Voldemort sending Snape back to Dumbledore again to reapply for the 81 school year?
First, I can see cold wet August night. My weather isn't too different from yours where I am. So Trelawney starting Sept 1, 79, no problem.
But then that leaves Voldemort knowing the prophecy for 10 months before any children are born that fit the criteria. Okay.
Then end July 80, 2 boys born to 2 families who have defied Voldemort thrice. Why does he wait? Is it that they hadn't thrice defied him yet? I got the impression from Dumbledore that as soon as Harry and Neville were born, they both immediately fit the criteria. Troubling, but not so much as the next thing.

If Snape went to Dumbledore in the summer 81, on Voldemort's orders (to remain loyal on that side) and to repent (to return to loyalty to Dumbledore), and if Snape's spiel to Dumbledore was that Voldemort was going after the Potters, then WHYEVER did Dumbledore wait until October 24 to send the Potters into hiding under the Fidelius at Godrics Hollow? Why didn't he do it IMMEDIATELY?

I think that's one important point of discussion brought up by Snape's timeline.

The other one, as I mentioned, is why was there an opening for Potionsmaster.

Ideas?

gumshoe