View Full Version : Contradiction?
‘I knew it wouldn’t be safe to open the chamber again while I was still at school. But I wasn’t going to waste those long years I’d spent searching for it. I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my footsteps, and finish Salazar Slytherin’s noble work.’
Umm - that is kinda a contradiction isnt it ... the diary was made a Horcrux by Voldemort later on ...
We are told that he wanted to hide his Horcruxes to save them - why would he place on an item he desribed as above?
Contraction maybe?
I'm not quite sure I understand your question, but I'll attempt to answer it all the same! :D
I am assuming that the diary was in fact a preservation of his sixteen year-old self, but that he could have made it later on. I think he may have made it a horcrux while at school still (and that it is possibly the first one he made).
I guess he could have used his own memories from when he was sixteen to create the diary. So if, for example, Harry had enough memories from when he was 14, he could enchant a diary to have a preservation of his 14 year-old self. One probably has to extract the memories from the person, then transfer them to the diary and enchant it however that happens.
Or, it is quite possible that he made the diary right away when he was still 16 and then turned it into a Horcrux later when he found out how. He must have been very proud of the advanced magic it took to create the diary, so it would be like his first "trophy" - and a great item to test it out on.
Actually I noticed Kasher bought this up in another thread ... and made it in better terms :o
Riddle had made his diary a weapon to kill someone - but also a horcrux to save himself ..
He wanted the diary to be found 'I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my footsteps, and finish Salazar Slytherin’s noble work.’ but by the same respect we are told that he needed to keep his Horcrux well hidden and out of the way - because once it is used another piece dies ...
So a contradiction - and thus important in my mind ...
Fortescue
11-08-2005, 12:31
It's possible that he made the diary what it was when he was sixteen, but did not use it as a Horcrux until later. He is about thirty years older than Lucius - he gave Lucius the diary for safe-keeping just before he disappeared according to Dumbledore. It's possible that he didn't use the diary as a Horcurx until he decided to leave it with Lucius. That would make sense if he was trying to spread his Horcruxes around, and then the remark that his sixteen-year-old self made to Harry in the Chamber would make sense as he would have been unaware that he used it for a Horcrux.
Does that make sense? :p
In order for the diary to work properly, it had to have some of Voldemort's soul in it.
Riddle's soul...
He wanted it to possess someone to open the chamber and continue Slytherin's work.
DD speaks of this in HBP, telling Harry that because Riddle could so easily risk this Horcrux, he must have made more. Riddle made 7 eventually, five hidden away nicely, one in himself, and the diary so someone else could open the chamber, an if caught, Riddle would be long gone, or it would be too late and he'd have come back through the diary.
I don't think it was a contradiction. I actually think it was very clever of him to use the diary like that.
Fortescue
11-08-2005, 15:39
The diary was enchanted - remember what Mr. Weasley told Ginny, "Don't trust anything if you can't see where it keeps its brain." The diary could have been just one of those enchanted objects.
When Riddle put the enchantment on it at sixteen, he meant it to contain the information to open the Chamber. The fact of what actually happened with him possessing Ginny and almost coming back to life could have been something he hadn't originally intended, but a bonus after he made the diary into a Horcrux. He hadn't intended anyone to get their hands on it after he put a bit of his soul into it. That's why he left it with Malfoy for safekeeping.
Sirius Potter Fan
11-08-2005, 18:55
Well Forte, you beat me to it, that is just what I was thinking. It wasn't intentional that the diary should bring him back to live, but the combination of magic in making a Horcrux out of an object already enchanted with your own thoughts and memories. the enchantment allowed the soul to communicate through the pages, and eventualy escape. I think the diary would have initialy only shown Riddle's memories to whomever looked, and in the hands of a Slytherin they would see how to open the chamber etc themselves. Now, am I making sense LOL! :rolleyes:
but hadnt riddle already killed the other riddles by now...??
so he would have had the deaths needed to make a horcrux... maybe that was the first thing he had to hand when he killed them...??
he knew of horcurxes at an early age because of sluggy...
maybe thats why his first horcrux was so basic..?
Weasleyfanforever
12-08-2005, 10:36
Well Forte, you beat me to it, that is just what I was thinking. It wasn't intentional that the diary should bring him back to live, but the combination of magic in making a Horcrux out of an object already enchanted with your own thoughts and memories. the enchantment allowed the soul to communicate through the pages, and eventualy escape. I think the diary would have initialy only shown Riddle's memories to whomever looked, and in the hands of a Slytherin they would see how to open the chamber etc themselves. Now, am I making sense LOL! :rolleyes:
I don't think that can be right, because the person that opened the diary and the Chamber had to be possessed by Riddle in order to open the Chamber through parseltongue, so he must have known that the bit of soul would escape into the other person and drain them of their life, bringing him back at the same time.
Just by knowing Riddle's memories and how to open the Chamber wouldn't have mattered, if the person didn't speak parseltongue, therefore they had to be possessed by Riddle in order to open the Chamber.
To add to that, Riddle could also decide who to possess. The diary had to have been designed that way. If it hadn't. whoever opened the diary and used it would be at risk, but Riddle in the diary chose to use Ginny, and have Harry as a target.
OK - lets look at this in two pieces again ...
The diary was enchanted in such a way that the person that read it would be possessed by what they were reading - thus Riddle could lead another to carry on his noble work.
Ergo - the diary was a weapon, to be used by Riddle into having another person carry on his work.
Then you have a horcrux - a piece of Voldemort that he wanted concealed and hidden - because with it being so valuable and also vulnerable - it could lead to another step in his downfall.
At the time Voldemort made the diary a horcrux - he had also written the diary, that he sealed - his frame of mind at the time concealed as well.
Ergo - he knew at the time of writing he wanted the diary found.
This is a direct contradiction to how he wanted to deal with his horcruxes.
Did he take a very valuable weapon - another way that he could be re-born - be it in the vessel of another - and make it a horcrux - which also does the same thing but instead making him re-birth?
This is the contradiction - he used a weapon as a horcrux - something he wanted another to find be something he wanted concealed.
. and both capable of sustaining Riddle in one form or another ...
Ok I don't think it was so much of a contradiction as multi-purpose item. Basically, I think that Tom split his soul when he was 16 and made the diary his first Horcrux, thus putting the piece of his soul into it that would enable him to guide someone else to open the Chamber.
I think Riddle was obviously obsessed and proud of his abilities and sort of used the diary as a bit of a trophy too - not a trophy trophy but something that let him be proud of what he had done and at the same time, something that he could use so he could continue on "Salazar Slytherin's noble work" .. (i hope that made the slightest bit of sense)
Slughorn seemed extremely surprised when Tom suggested making seven Horcruxes, and said that more than one hadn't been done before (or i think he did anyway ;) ). A normal soul-splitter (;)) wouldn't have wanted anyone to find his/her Horcrux, because they only had one and didn't have any to spare. But Tom, with his huge Horcruxy ambitions, was aiming for seven, and as such could afford to use one of them for his brilliant idea to guide someone else to open the Chamber ..
In short, I think it was a contradition, but Riddle didn't think of it as such because unlike those who had made Horcruxes before him, he was going to have more than one - so he didn't necessarily need to worry as much about keeping this one as safe as he would have if he hadn't been planning to make other "backup" souls.
Voldemort was said to be very unhappy when he found out the fate of his Diary ...
See in simple terms - he created an item that in it's essence was almost a horcrux - then made it into a horcrux - as such you have to wonder what was going on in his mind!
See it is a blatant contradiction - he had to conceal his horcrux to keep them safe, I mean it is still a part of his soul ... yet he wanted the diary found.
Voldemort isn't stupid - he had effectively two Horcruxes for the price of one - yet decided to take the risk.
I think this could be a JKR error ;)
Well ok, I think the important part here is when he made the diary into the Horcrux.. because I think he could have figured out how to produce a Horcrux when he was 16 and that it wasn't that he made the Diary in essense something that was almost a Horcrux, but that the Diary became that when it was made into a Horcrux.. and wasn't anything close to that prior to Tom's soul-split.
I mean naturally he was unhappy - he'd been foiled by Harry Potter once again and had been stopped from killing any Muggle borns / Squibs / 'Blood traitors' .. and of course his Horcrux had been destroyed.. but I don't think he was unhappy it was found or anything - it'd started to be used for what he wanted it to be used for..
Sirius Potter Fan
16-08-2005, 15:01
I don't know that JKR made an error, it may well have been that Voldemort/Riddle intended the diary to be given to a slytherin to posses and continue the work. then, an afterthought, thought to use it as a horcrux as well as double protection, the Riddle in the book's Memories, seemed to know that he could be reborn through the diary. Perhpas it was planned that if the diary Riddle knew of his future demise that he would "rebirth" himself, because he mentions that Giny told him that Harry had defeated him, and he said something like "I had to see for myself who could do that" So he not only had the power, but knew he had it and that he could use it. If this was the first, as it likely was, it was made to protect both ways, kind of overkill if you will. A Horcrux first, simple as that, but just in case the horcrux thing didn't work, a way of reincarnating himself through someone reading the diary. . . insurance :p
Fortescue
17-08-2005, 01:07
but hadnt riddle already killed the other riddles by now...??
so he would have had the deaths needed to make a horcrux... maybe that was the first thing he had to hand when he killed them...??
he knew of horcurxes at an early age because of sluggy...
maybe thats why his first horcrux was so basic..?
Just because he killed three people in one night does not mean that he needed to immediately make three Horcruxes. At that point he didn't even know the complete details of doing so. We don't even know the his exact age when he killed his parents. So as for knowing the exact timeline he did all those things, all we can do is go by the order Dumbledore showed Harry these things in the Pensieve.
I don't think that can be right, because the person that opened the diary and the Chamber had to be possessed by Riddle in order to open the Chamber through parseltongue, so he must have known that the bit of soul would escape into the other person and drain them of their life, bringing him back at the same time.
But the diary was enchanted. Riddle enchanted it to have all the information for the next person who might come alone interested to do Salazar Slytherin's noble work. He didn't intend it to be left in the hands of an eleven year old girl, that was Malfoys fault. Voldemort wanted it to be used as a tool filled with the knowledge of how to open the Chamber - he didn't want it to be used so Malfoy could discredit Arthur Weasley and kill Mudbloods. After he made it a Horcrux, he didn't want the diary used by anyone. That's why he left it with Malfoy so no one would use it.
See it is a blatant contradiction - he had to conceal his horcrux to keep them safe, I mean it is still a part of his soul ... yet he wanted the diary found.
Voldemort isn't stupid - he had effectively two Horcruxes for the price of one - yet decided to take the risk.
Um, I don't think when he originally made the diary that he intended to use it as a Horcrux. He made it for one purpose, his ego told him how great and powerful the diary was, after he discovered the process for Horcruxes he thought what better place to store a bit of his soul than something so magically powerful that he created. Something in his mind he surly thought was as great as any item from the school founders.
I don't believe the diary would have acted as a Horcrux on it's own - the fact that Riddle almost came to life from it would have been because of the soul bit hidden within, but I think had it not been there the diary would have simply filled Riddle's original intention of having a magical item that contained the information to open the Chamber. That would have included the words in parseltongue required to get through the opening in the bathroom and the various doors below, and how to control the basilisk.
The rest of what happened was because of the soul bit, and was what alerted Dumbledore to what Voldemort was up to after Harry destroyed the diary.
OK - I think I am going to regret this but here goes :p
How aware is the soul piece inside a horcrux?
This is going take this off-topic a bit but here goes ...
Ok - Voldemort cannot tell when a horcrux is destroyed - ergo a horcrux has no idea that Voldemort is also been killed or whatever ...
Voldemort wasnt dead when the CoS moment with Ginny and Harry happened - he was exisiting thanks to the Horcruxes ...
So why did the horcrux diary do what it did?
How did the writings of a 16 year old now know it was a weapon in re-birth -Riddle said that as Ginny died he would live ...
Basically if a horcrux is in exist mode - why did it try and spawn another Voldemort?
Of course this could add a little weight to used in the UvE debate :p
The diary knew what it was supposed to do because it was enchanted that way.
It was meant to possess someone so the chamber could be reopened. I think with Ginny informing him that Harry Potter had defeated Voldemort, Riddle did all he could to come out of the diary. He knew his future self was out there somewhere, without his power.
I don't think this adds to the used debate, because the diary was one of a kind. It had another purpose which it almost fulfilled completely.
It's it's initial use - Riddle left is so he might lead another to continue the good fight - now if this included the power to take control of them to be able to do it - I am not 100% sure, I think this is where the Horcrux placed on it comes into play.
It's was like the diary turned into the combination we talked about at the start - a weapon that then assumed to be a way for Voldemort to come back ...
vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.