View Full Version : What was Lily Doing?
ES: And James didn't.
JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer.
MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry?
JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen.
MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] -
JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular way.
OK - So Lily had no idea whatever she did - the old magic - would save Harry ...
So with that in mind - what could she have been doing?
What I mean is - we all assumed she used Old Magic in a desperate attempt to save her son - but she didnt know it would ...
Given Voldemort was going to kill her son - and she knew that - what could she have been doing?
What I mean is - she knew her Son was about to be killed - she did or tried something Voldemort attributed to Old Magic ...
Umm - so not easy to get this right ...
Did she try something to try and protect Harry on the off chance it would work ... or was she in fact trying to do something else - but the effect was to create a protection ...
If so - what was she trying and what was her original planned result of it?
I'm not sure even now I got that out properly :o
I've never thought she actually did anything. I posted in some other threads before HBP came out that I didn't think she performed a spell, made a potion, etc.
My interpretation of what happened (before and after JKR gave this interview) was that simply the sacrifice she made was what gave Harry the protection. The reason James didn't have any effect on Harry is that he wasn't given that choice. As Lily was given the choice, and she chose to sacrifice herself, it created that "forcefield" around Harry. He wasn't able to be touched by the person who killed his mom as she put down her own life to save him.
She sacrificed herself because she was Harry's mom (and who could live with knowing that you chose your own life over your child's?). She didn't do anything special other than stand in front of him and make the choice to die, to not stand aside.
Does that make sense?
He gave her a choice - stand aside - and she said no. I think maybe she pleaded with him to take her life but spare her son. If she knew about the prophecy, maybe she was vowing to bind his powers or something (or is that just on Charmed?)
I don't think sh was doing any more than trying to save her son's life by sacrificing her own.
Sirius Potter Fan
11-08-2005, 18:45
As I posted in another thread, I don't think Lily even thought that she could save Harry's life. She knew that once Voldemort killed her, that he would kill Harry, but she also knew she couldn't just stand there and let him do it either, even if it were hopeless. . . could you?
Think about it this way. . . an ant will protect it's home by "attacking" and biting a human being. . . I'm shure the ant doesn't think that he will be able to defeat the human, but he does his best anyway. . . just before I squish him.
At the end of OOTP, when Dumbledore is having his talk with Harry about why he placed him with the Dursleys, on page 835, he says:
"But I knew too Where Voldermort was weak. And so I made my decision. You would be protected by an ancient magic of which he knows, and he despises and which he has always, therefore, underestimated-to his cost. I am speaking, of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you. She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day. I put my trust, therefore, in your mother's blood. I delivered you to her sister, her only remaining relative."
"She doesn't love me, " Harry said at once. "She doesn't give a damn-"
"But she took you," Dumbledore cut across him. "She may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly, yet still she took you, and in doing so, she sealed the charm I placed upon you. Your mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you."
So it wasn't just Lily's love, but also a charm that Dumbledore placed upon Harry. But either way, Lily didn't know I don't think.
yarvelling
11-08-2005, 23:34
Piper, that charm as placed by Dumbledore was more of an extension of the charm invoked when Lilly died to protect Harry. When she died, Dumbledore hadn't placed the charm yet.
Lilly may have known that when she died, her love would protect Harry....this was a form of magic that Dumbledore told Harry, that Voldemort didn't know of! Infact, Voldemort even said as much in the Graveyard during GoF as he questioned Harry, and then said in a new realisation that it was now clear to him that Harry wasn't a 'special' boy afterall , merely lucky!
Weasleyfanforever
12-08-2005, 10:41
Lilly may have known that when she died, her love would protect Harry....this was a form of magic that Dumbledore told Harry, that Voldemort didn't know of!
JKR says that Lily didn't know what would happen, she had no knowledge of the protection because it had never happened before.
I personally think that it was just desperate measures. She knew that Voldemort was going to kill her if she didn't stand aside, and that he would then be able to kill Harry, but as a mother, she couldn't move out of the way.
Dumbledore says that Voldermort DID know of the ancient magic, but that he despised it, and therefore always underestimated it. 835 OOTP
I just noticed that in GOF, Voldermort says: "His mother died in the attempt to save him-and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not forseen.....I could not touch the boy"
"His mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice...This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it." Chapter 33 The Death Eaters
Hmm, now that quote is interesting, Piper, because it could be interpreted from there that Lily was actually doing something . . . if she died "in the attempt" to save Harry, that sort of makes it sound like she was trying something.
Of course, this doesn't mean she was placing some complicated charm on him, it could simply mean that she stood in front of him and maybe made a couple spells in Voldemort's direction or something.
I'm still not convinced that she did anything other than sacrifice her life for Harry.
Hermione
13-08-2005, 09:08
I don't think Lily did know what she was doing. I think she only knew that she loved Harry and she was going to die anyway, so she needed to try and save her son before she perished.
Lily was bright and Lily was a fighter - she faced off Voldemort three times before ... she just seem him dispatch her husband ... she knew Voldemort meant business ...
This is the reason I belive she was doing or at least attempting something - because she knew if she went - Harry would defo be next ...
She didnt know what she was doing was going to save Harry - ergo that makes me think that was a side effect - of her doing something else ... I really feel Lily was doing something that night - something that would perhaps stop Voldemort before be could even attack Harry - because she knew the only way to save Harry was to stop Voldemort - not stop the AK curse he would use to see an end to Harry ..
I'd always thought for sure she'd have done more than deliberately die seconds before Harry's certain death, and the quotes upthread confirm this. Merely jumping in front of an AK would be pointless, for then Voldemort would send the next AK at Harry. Even with only a second or two to think, she'd have worked that much out.
I'm reminded of a passage in GoF, pp 662, American first ed:
"Harry crouched behind the headstone and knew the end had come. There was no hope...no help to be had. And as he heard Voldemort draw nearer still, he knew one thing only, and it was beyond fear or reason: He was not going to die crouching here like a child playing hide-and-seek; he was not going to die kneeling at Voldemort's feet...he was going to die upright like his father, and he was going to die trying to defend himself, even if no defense was possible..."
Of course then follows the moment at which their wands connect, when Harry shouts Expelliarmus as Voldemort AK's.
I feel certain that there was something she did, even if she thought it would be futile. (Even if it was actually futile.) Something simple, along the lines of Expelliarmus, something automatic. Like Obliviate, to try to make him forget what he came to do; or Finite Incantatem, to stop him from killing her long enough to think of something to kill him; or she was putting a Disillusionment charm on Harry before Voldemort got to them...
???
gumshoe
See, I really think that her standing in front of Harry and attempting to stop Voldemort from killing him was more just a maternal instinct than anything else. She was trying anything she could to save her only son, and had even started begging Voldemort not to do it.. and kill her instead, which he did obviously since he needed to get past her to get to the baby.
I don't think it was really a question of her performing some special kind of magic to stop Voldemort - she knew he was the most powerful Dark Wizard of the age (or ever) and that's why they hid in the first place.. because they knew if he found them they were as good as dead.. so i think she sort of accepted her death when she knew Voldemort was coming to get them, but she still thought there could be a way to save Harry.
To get slightly off topic here (sorry :o).. People have disagreed about whether or not she knew about the prophecy; if she didn't, then she might not have had a clue as to why Voldemort was coming after her family, she just knew that he was and that was enough. She took a chance that maybe, to him, one death was as good as the next.. and thought she might be able to take Harry's place in death.
See once again - I have said this already but here goes ...
I get the feeling was are all suppose to belive that what she was doing was protecting Harry by doing something that would make Voldemort's AK go bad ... JKR pretty much dismisses that ...
That is what makes me think we are perhaps looking at it the wrong way - rather than her second guessing Voldemort was going to AK Harry - she set about doing something to Voldemort ... stop the attacker stop the attack ...
It would be consistant then that she didnt go all out wild and crazy and was killed in a frenzy much like I would have expected James to go ... she was in fact targetting Voldemort for something and that in effect caused the protection on Harry ...
What I mean to say is that she wasnt protecting Harry and doing things to Harry to keep him safe - she was in fact trying to work the attacker over to prevent the eventual attack.
What I mean to say is that she wasnt protecting Harry and doing things to Harry to keep him safe - she was in fact trying to work the attacker over to prevent the eventual attack.
You mean like stunning him or something, doing everything in her power to kill him could have weakened him some, so when the AK did rebound it's effects were worse?
Maybe there is an "I'm rubber and you are Glue" Hex we haven't been told about?
Or do you mean that you don't think her dying when she didn't have to and envoking the old magic is what caused the spell to rebound? That that old magic wouldn't have worked unless she did something else?
I think the old magic part was subsequent to what she was doing - maybe unrealised side effect ...
I was always confused why Lily was so passive rather than trying to gorge Voldemort's eyes out - kicking and screaming - I think she knew she couldnt stop him killing Harry - stopping the AK spell ... but she could do something to the attacker ...
All I am suggesting and trying to use JKR's words is that many of us felt Lily was doing something to protect Harry from AK - we all know now it had nevered happened before and she would have no idea what she actually did would offer Harry any kind of protection - this just seemed to say in my mind that she wasnt actually trying to do jack to save Harry - instead tackling the source of the issue ... any number of things she could do to try and outfox or stop Voldemort ...
Weasleyfanforever
30-01-2006, 22:07
I think the old magic part was subsequent to what she was doing - maybe unrealised side effect ...
I was always confused why Lily was so passive rather than trying to gorge Voldemort's eyes out - kicking and screaming - I think she knew she couldnt stop him killing Harry - stopping the AK spell ... but she could do something to the attacker ...
All I am suggesting and trying to use JKR's words is that many of us felt Lily was doing something to protect Harry from AK - we all know now it had nevered happened before and she would have no idea what she actually did would offer Harry any kind of protection - this just seemed to say in my mind that she wasnt actually trying to do jack to save Harry - instead tackling the source of the issue ... any number of things she could do to try and outfox or stop Voldemort ...
I think that she knew that there was no outfoxing or stopping Voldemort. He had found them, even with Dumbledore's protection, even with the fidelus charm, he had found them, and she knew that he had already killed her husband, and that there was nothing she could do but put herself in the way of him and her child. No amount of kicking and scratching was going to change that. She knew that she was going t odie, and her son was going to die, and the only thing she could do to delay his death was put herself in the way of what was coming. Whatever she did worked, because he is still alive, but maybe it is exactly what I said, she just delayed his death and it's still coming...
Yea - I think you could be right in one respect - his death was delayed but not prevented.
I posted in a thread about self destruction - I cant help but wonder if there is a similar premise to Horcruxes that rather than being based on death and killing would be based on sacrifice and protection? Dont want to off-topic this thread just interesting what she could have done.
I still feel the constant reminder of Lily's eyes play a big part in this - JKR says eyes are the widows to the soul ...
AH here is an existing thread, I had completely forgotten about this. I came close here to actually hitting this new theory!
Lexicon has the Bond of Blood described as requiring THREE things in order to work.
1. For a blood relative to sacrifice their life for you
2. For someone to cast a charm to activate the protection
3. For a blood relative to accept you as their own to SEAL the bond of blood,
BEFORE the protection will begin.
It doesn't say these things have to be done in any order though.
I don't think that Lily's being willing to die for Harry that night was enough either now. I am with Alz on this. Alone it would not have been enough to have rebounded that AK Curse. Other things had to have occured. (where is Alz btw?)
One thing that makes me think this is that when Vernon Dursley tried to throw Harry out of the house, a Howler from Dumbledore arrived that said, "Petunia, remember my LAST" JKR was asked about this, why it did not just say, "Remember my Letter", and replied that there were letters before this.
Another thing is the timeline. Hagrid spoke to Professor McGonnagal early in the day on Nov 1st, no mention of a motorcycle or a baby being there, he told her that Dumbledore would be at Privet Drive later that day, so she went there to wait. She was shocked to learn that Dumbledore intended to leave Harry with these people. Hagrid says that Dumbledore had told him to go and get Harry, Hagrid speaks of this as though he got there rather quickly, the Potters died on Halloween night, Hagrid did not arrive at the Dursleys until almost Midnight on November 1st.
I get confused thinking of the time turner business. The prior letters make me wonder though about why there could have been prior contact with Petunia and Dumbledore, and if maybe she had somehow taken Harry in prior to this after hearing a similar story for a brief time before Lily died and the AK Curse was sent at him.
Petunia claimed that she had not seen or heard from Lily in years, but she did know that Lily had a son named Harry though. There are no muggle relatives, so that in itself is something.
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