Choices of AK?

[Alz]

MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] -

JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular way.

OK, so we know that Voldemort told Lily to stand aside ... we also know she declind that choice ...
It seems from JKR's comments in the quote that it is very significant that no-one had ever been given the same kind of choice as Lily ...
Could it be that is a contributing reason the spell didnt go as planned - if so, what could it be about the spell, Voldemort, Lily or indeed all together that mean AK goes bad when a choice is present?

Remeber JKR says over and over - it is all about choices ;)

[Boing]

I think - as I put in the other post about Lily - that when Lily sacrificed her own life, she made that choice to die. Because of the sacrifice, it created a protection for Harry. It is this protection that made the AK rebound.

Other people may have been given different choices . . . this I am considering to mean something like, "I will kill you unless you give me the information I need, etc." The choice wasn't to stand aside and let me kill your child or not.

I don't think it is a choice that makes AK go "bad" - I think in this particular situation, it was all about the sacrifice she made. Yes, that was a result of a choice, but it wasn't the offer of a choice itself that made the spell rebound, it was the resultant sacrifice of the choice Lily made.

Hope that makes sense!

[Fortescue]

I think there was more behind what happened that night then just her taking a bullet for her son. If she didn't have other plans in mind she would have fought Voldemort and tried to save Harry's life. James was a distraction for Voldemort, which gave Lily the time she needed to do whatever she had to do in those last moments of her life.

She didn't just stand there like a meek lamb because she was trying to be honorable and do what any parent would do for their child. We are constantly shown how talented of a witch she was, and in HBP we found out she was good at potions. I think there was a reason for that and I think she made other preparations just in case Voldemort did find their supposed secure hiding place. Remember, the Potters knew there was a traitor in their midst - they would have thought of every safety measure they could. ;)

[kashlie]

Is it at all possible that her choice actually affected Voldemort?
We know in order to perform the spell and make it work, that you have to really mean it.
When V offered Lily the choice, and she refused to step out of the way, he killed her in anger.
Then, turning to Harry, who now has the protection of his mother's love in perhaps more ways than one. I imagine Voldemort looking at him, wondering what is so special about a child that a mother would die for him?
I think Voldemort may have had feelings, although not of love, but of confusion and maybe, just maybe, his heart wasn't completely in it.
I believe it was the spell rebounding that blew up the house, which means it was thrown back off Harry with force, but I also think it is possible that because of Lily's choice, Voldemort experienced feelings he'd never had before and couldn't perform the spell properly.

[Sirius Potter Fan]

First, everyone talks about Lily having time to make some type of protection for Harry, but I don't think she did. Yes, James and Voldemort had a duel, but there is no protection for the AK, and I really doubt that Voldemort was in the mood to play with james as he was with Harry in the graveyard in GoF. I think Vomdemort flicked off a quick AK and ran off for Lily and Harry. In the movies, it shows Lily standing in front of a crib, and if that is consistant with what JKR has decided happened that night, that would tell me that Lily didn't have time to even get Harry out of the crib and aparate away, knowing she couldn't defend herself or Harry against the AK.

I think it was just Lily's choice that caused the chain of events that came about. Lily could have moved as asked, saved her life, and let her son die, she could have aparated away herself, but she stayed and tried to shield her son, probably knowing in her mind that it wouldn't make a difference, but did it just the same, that choice made the difference. Lily knew that she could have lived and let her son die, but chose to die with him. I don't think she thought there was any hope of Harry living, but gave her life and shielded him just the same.

[yarvelling]

I think that Kash, and SPF have it about right.....
Lilly probably new that her love for Harry would protect him against Voldemort; Dumbledore did tell Harry that that type of charm was an old form of magic, one that was unknown to Voldemort; thus, Lilly had one last desperate chance to protect her son. Voldemort, being unaware of this (and he did say as much later, in GoF) infact set the charm in place when he killed Lilly. A little confusion at Lilly's response to the choice he had offered her meant that his AK didn't have the proper focus, and went wildly out of control when it bounced off Harry!

[Fortescue]

We are forgetting the destroyed house. If James was duelling Voldemort the house would have been torn up form the missed curses. I'm sure Voldemort's attack on James was not just James casting a curse and then Voldemort AKing him. Remember the scene in the Ministry before the Veil. There was spells flying everywhere. Just because Voldemort is an all-powerful wizard doesn't mean that he killed James on his first shot. And I'm sure that if the house was torn up, it wasn't just from one missed AK.



Could it be that is a contributing reason the spell didnt go as planned - if so, what could it be about the spell, Voldemort, Lily or indeed all together that mean AK goes bad when a choice is present?


I don't think that's the case. AK can't be blocked - not by the use of another wand, we know that, but what about if it's magically messed with a bit. As I said in previous post, I don't believe she just stood there and did nothing waiting for Voldemort to find her and Harry. Maybe the reason she didn't fight him was because of the specific spell she had placed on Harry.

Maybe she didn't want to duel Voldemort because she found a charm or potion that would protect Harry from AK - she didn't want him getting hit with another curse. Maybe whatever she used to protect him was only against the AK and she knew that would be the curse Voldemort used if he had no reason to use another, so she didn't fight or resist.

[Alz]

JKR said that an AK curse not doing the job had never happened before.
JKR also said that whatever Lily did - she didn't know it would save Harry.
As such - those 2 things combined just makes me really wonder here.
The choice was offered - I think usually it isn't - the person who performs AK had to be that full of hate and ready to do the job ... almost like the difference between murder and manslaughter - cold blood killing or indirect killing ...
Voldemort bursting into that room and then facing the thing that could bring him down - you would have thought he would have done all he could to get to Harry - not offer his Mother to stand aside ...
Something else was going on here ... Lily wasn't about to do something, nothing or anything knowing her Son was about to be killed - more than likely by AK - whatever she was doing, I don't think she knew it would save his life by deflecting AK - she was doing something else - something she KNEW would save Harry ... not just hope and pray would ...

As such I think she was doing something other than protecting Harry - she was trying to do something to Voldemort ...
Think about it - stop the person trying to kill her son - not her son from being killed ... she had no idea whatever she did would save him because it never happened before ...

I think the choice was born from whatever Lily was doing to try and stop Voldemort ...

[Fortescue]

JKR said that an AK curse not doing the job had never happened before.
JKR also said that whatever Lily did - she didn't know it would save Harry.
As such - those 2 things combined just makes me really wonder here.
The choice was offered - I think usually it isn't - the person who performs AK had to be that full of hate and ready to do the job ... almost like the difference between murder and manslaughter - cold blood killing or indirect killing ...

Voldemort bursting into that room and then facing the thing that could bring him down - you would have thought he would have done all he could to get to Harry - not offer his Mother to stand aside ...



What would Voldemort's frame of mind have been though after duelling with James and killing him, then walking in Harry's bedroom and finding a defenseless Lily standing there? I think he'd be quite smug after killing someone who had thrice defied him, and then facing Lily, someone else who had thrice defied him, and having no further barriers between himself and Harry. Lily wasn't standing there throwing curses at him, otherwise he would have attacked her and no offer would have been made to stand aside.

Something else was going on here ... Lily wasn't about to do something, nothing or anything knowing her Son was about to be killed - more than likely by AK - whatever she was doing, I don't think she knew it would save his life by deflecting AK - she was doing something else - something she KNEW would save Harry ... not just hope and pray would ...

I sort of think the same thing - she did something that magically gave Harry an advantage - why else would she not stand and fight? But I also wonder, if she had something magical that specifically blocked AK, why didn't she use it on her and James as well so if it worked, her son wouldn't be an orphan?

As such I think she was doing something other than protecting Harry - she was trying to do something to Voldemort ...
Think about it - stop the person trying to kill her son - not her son from being killed ... she had no idea whatever she did would save him because it never happened before ...

I think the choice was born from whatever Lily was doing to try and stop Voldemort ...

There are potions that we've heard of - the Draught of the Living Dead I think it's called; we saw it in HBP again, but what does it do? It's been mentioned before, but Harry actually made it in his sixth year. We also learned Lily was good at potions - maybe one of the potions mentioned in HBP was a hint as to what she might have used to help Harry survive the AK! :rolleyes:

As for using something that would make the AK adverse to the one who cast the AK, it's possible something in Advanced Potions class was hinted at, but was more significant than we were lead to believe. JKR said the spell definitely rebounded, but if Lily used something to help that other than just "love", I'd still have to wonder why she didn't use it on her and James?

[Piper]

In one of the interviews, JKR said that Harry didn't have a God Mother because Sirius didn't have a love interest, and at the time they Christened Harry, the Potters were in hiding, so not very many people attended the Christening.

This leads me to think that probably they knew that there was a prophecy that said Harry would be the target. Either Snape or Dumbledore, or both had let them know. That kind of lends weight to the theory that she did something, or they did something, or maybe she just knew of the very old magic, Dumbledore knew, Voldermort knew, surely a clever witch like Lily could have known of it.

But you have to keep in mind that they thought they were safe, they trusted their secret-keeper. It was a big shock to them that night when Voldermort showed up.

JKR was asked if there had been a love interest wtih Snape and Lily, and she wouldn't answer, then asked of Lupin and Lily, and she said it was not as though Lupin competed with James for her affection, but that Lily was considered quite a catch, a very popular girl. JKR also said that Snape HAS been loved by someone, and that makes him in some ways a more formatable enemy than Voldermort.

It almost has to be that Voldermort gave Lily the choice because of Snape, doesn't it? It's correct that she had thrice defied him too, he would have had no sympathy for her. Maybe even Snape told her of the old Magic.??? Now this is turning into wild speculation, sorry for that, I get carried away....

[Alz]

Couple of points here - more a re-iteration ...
Lily was not aware that what she did would save Harry from AK - that tends to suggest Lily was actually doing something that would have stopped Voldemort before he could get to AK Harry - and would suggest once again why she didn't go down fighting.
She had to have done something - her son's life was at risk - but we all assume what she was doing was something that would stop Harry being killed ... rather than looking at the other ways she could have prevented Harry being attacked - but trying to distract or otherwise impede the attacker ...

The question is - at what point did Snape realise that Voldemort was going to attack the Potters - remember JKR made it clear Voldemort had 2 possible targets ... and he wasn't the most open person in the world - there is nothing to suggest that Snape was aware even up to the point the Potters were attacked - as such where was his room for bargaining?
I would have thought Voldemort would have killed Snape on sight if something he said or did changed Voldemort's plans and lead to his death ... might have been his own bad judgement but would have been fitting in his mind to exact the revenge on the informer ...

[Fortescue]

The question is - at what point did Snape realise that Voldemort was going to attack the Potters - remember JKR made it clear Voldemort had 2 possible targets ... and he wasn't the most open person in the world - there is nothing to suggest that Snape was aware even up to the point the Potters were attacked - as such where was his room for bargaining?
I would have thought Voldemort would have killed Snape on sight if something he said or did changed Voldemort's plans and lead to his death ... might have been his own bad judgement but would have been fitting in his mind to exact the revenge on the informer ...

The Potters were only in hiding for a week before the attack. Snape was already doing his supposed, double spy bit at Hogwarts. Dumbledore found out that the Potters were a target and sent them into hiding - it would seem that Snape was the one who told Dumbledore of Voldemort's plans. He would have known since he was the one who gave Voldemort the information - and I'm sure Voldemort was aware of Snape's malice toward James. It could be that Voldemort let Snape in on his plans figuring that the information would please Snape because of his feelings toward James, but didn't count on the fact that Snape owed James a life debt and couldn't stand by and let Voldemort murder the Potters without trying to intervene in some way. Unfortunately, Snape obviously didn't know Wormtails role in Voldemort's plans - if he did know, he would have told Dumbledore and Wormtail could have been dispatched before he gave away the information - but then again, Dumbledore didn't know Wormtail was the Secret-Keeper either.

I still think Voldemort was set up that night - and that's why Lily didn't fight him. She knew if she didn't fight him he would only use the AK - and that's what she wanted.

[The Frozen North]

Is it at all possible that her choice actually affected Voldemort?
We know in order to perform the spell and make it work, that you have to really mean it.
When V offered Lily the choice, and she refused to step out of the way, he killed her in anger.
Then, turning to Harry, who now has the protection of his mother's love in perhaps more ways than one. I imagine Voldemort looking at him, wondering what is so special about a child that a mother would die for him?
I think Voldemort may have had feelings, although not of love, but of confusion and maybe, just maybe, his heart wasn't completely in it.
I believe it was the spell rebounding that blew up the house, which means it was thrown back off Harry with force, but I also think it is possible that because of Lily's choice, Voldemort experienced feelings he'd never had before and couldn't perform the spell properly.


First, everyone talks about Lily having time to make some type of protection for Harry, but I don't think she did. Yes, James and Voldemort had a duel, but there is no protection for the AK, and I really doubt that Voldemort was in the mood to play with james as he was with Harry in the graveyard in GoF. I think Vomdemort flicked off a quick AK and ran off for Lily and Harry. In the movies, it shows Lily standing in front of a crib, and if that is consistant with what JKR has decided happened that night, that would tell me that Lily didn't have time to even get Harry out of the crib and aparate away, knowing she couldn't defend herself or Harry against the AK.

I think it was just Lily's choice that caused the chain of events that came about. Lily could have moved as asked, saved her life, and let her son die, she could have aparated away herself, but she stayed and tried to shield her son, probably knowing in her mind that it wouldn't make a difference, but did it just the same, that choice made the difference. Lily knew that she could have lived and let her son die, but chose to die with him. I don't think she thought there was any hope of Harry living, but gave her life and shielded him just the same.



I think that these two quotes sum up the reason for Harry's protection for me. JKR has said that there is no protection from AK and that Lilly did not know her actions would have any effect other than to confirm her devotion to her son. As Voldermort has no comprehention of love (how can someone who has never experienced love have any understanding of it whatsoever?) Lilly's actions would seem incomprehensible to him, therefore the protection afforded to Harry was not some kind of shield as we have all assumed but in fact something that directly affected Voldermort. This also ties in nicely with another thread that talks about love being the undoing of Voldermort and also about the concept of choices, after all we are the result of our choices and our only real freedom in life is how we choose to act or react. Ultimately we choose our feelings and choose how to respond to them.

[Alz]

OK, so we know that Voldemort told Lily to stand aside ... we also know she declind that choice ...
It seems from JKR's comments in the quote that it is very significant that no-one had ever been given the same kind of choice as Lily ...
Could it be that is a contributing reason the spell didnt go as planned - if so,what could it be about the spell, Voldemort, Lily or indeed all together that mean AK goes bad when a choice is present?

Remeber JKR says over and over - it is all about choices ;)
I would really like to discuss and maybe center around the part I higlighted in this thread - there is another one I raised which details more the overall contents of what JKR said and Lily's behaviour ...
I just wonder what was it about the presence of choice here - notice the last line I put there - JKR says over and over about choices ... could she have been hinting at this moment ...?

[Piper]

Blaise: The question is - at what point did Snape realise that Voldemort was going to attack the Potters - remember JKR made it clear Voldemort had 2 possible targets ... and he wasn't the most open person in the world - there is nothing to suggest that Snape was aware even up to the point the Potters were attacked - as such where was his room for bargaining?

I am assuming here that Snape would have gotten worried as soon as he figured out Harry was born at the end of July. Because he knew the prophecy set that month. And this is where that muddy water is, Dumbledore said this when Karkaroff accused Snape:
"I have given evidence already on this matter," He said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldermort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a death eater than I am."
But we don't know exactly when he came to Dumbledore, just that it was before October 31, 1981. We don't know how long. We can assume before the start of the school year, as he applied for the DADA Job, but was given Potions, but it never says for sure.

Fortescue
The Potters were only in hiding for a week before the attack

I'm confused about this. When are babies usually Christened in the UK? Because in an interview JKR said that Harry doesn't have a God Mother because Sirius didn't have a girlfriend, and that the Potters were in hiding when he was Christened, so it wasn't a widely attended event. I just assumed they had been in hiding for quite awhile, as he was 15 months old when they were attacked.


Blaise:
what could it be about the spell, Voldemort, Lily or indeed all together that mean AK goes bad when a choice is present?

It's not just the AK Curse that goes bad, it's anything evil.
When you love someone so much that you would rather die on the chance that you could be with them than continue living, THAT is what rebounds the evil.

Lily didn't die to save Harry, she didn't think at that point she would be able to stop Voldermort from killing him, but she loved Harry so much that she did not want to continue to live without him. She had a decision to make, and she made the decision to die on the CHANCE she could go where Harry was going, because she thought Harry was going to die, her life was meaningless to her without Harry. Her love for Harry was that strong.

We have seen this another time in the series, at the end of OotP, when Voldermort enters Harry, and tells Dumbledore, "If death is NOTHING, Kill me NOW", and Harry thinks, "Yes do kill me now, then I can be with Sirius again" and Voldermort leaves his body. Voldermort couldn't stay because fo the LOVE Harry felt for Sirius, which was such that he would have rather died at that moment on the CHANCE he could see Sirius again.

And I know that Harry did not die to save Sirius, but I think the message here is if you can love so much that you would CHOSE to disregard your own life, on the chance that you can be with someone that you love after death, you override Evil.

The AK is an evil curse. It was repelled because Lily Loved Harry.
Voldermort is an Evil guy, he was thrown out of Harry because Harry Loved Sirius.