Snape's bond!

[The Welsh Witch]

We all know that there was a bond between Snape and James Potter after James saved Snape's life but when James died before Snape could repay did that break the bond?

I know Dumbledore 'hinted' to Harry in one of the books after Snape had helped him that he was doing it so he didn't have to feel indebted to James anymore but there was no mention of the bond passing over to Harry ( this also gives the impression that Snape is doing it of his own volition i.e. Nothing to do with Dumbledore )

Snape has helped Harry out on a number of occasions throughout the books e.g The counter curse at the Quidditch match but he still carries on helping him which suggests either he feels Harry wasn't in enough danger to wipe out the debt ( if indeed there was one ) or if not he really does want Harry to live!

If it does turn out to have been a proper bond does it also mean that the debt has now been repayed because he did actually save Harry's life at the end of the HBP?

Just wondering!

[Alz]

JKR did dismiss the idea that Voldemort could owe a life debt to Harry based on the blood the Arm he took from his servant ... So I wonder if the life debt is transferable?
I'm trying to remember if this is an implication or stated ...

I suppose we need to look at the point Harry's life is about to end - and someone steps in - this is when a life debt it paid. You have to look at the past experiences of Harry and ask if he actually would have died if Snape had not helped ...

I think it would be strange for Harry to have two people near Voldemort who both owe him a life debt ...
You know I wonder if that could be a contributor in why Dumbledore trusts Snape - because he would be bound to save Harry if he was near Voldemort with Harry ... of course we know that is where Snape is now going to be.
Interesting thread ... :)

[The Welsh Witch]

Perhaps the reason JKR dismissed the idea of Voldermort owing a life debt to Harry is because it stated in the HBP that the saving of the life has to voluntary and with choice, which was not the case where Harry was concerned.

I agree with you where the incidents of Snape helping are concerned, I don't believe that any of them prior to Dumbledore dying would have been fatal had he not intervened, add to that I have just re-read the chapter ' Flight of the Prince' and it seems he didn't actually save his life there either, Harry was only in pain which suggests the cruciatus curse!

If it does turn out that there are two people close to Voldermort who owe him a life debt, how would this help him really? Does he not have to kill Voldermort himself to complete the Prophecy or can someone who owes him a life debt step in?

[Fortescue]

I think we have a thread around here somewhere that covers Snape's debt to James.

Snape's protection of Harry in PS/SS didn't literally save his life. If he had begun to fall off his broom, I'm sure that one of the other teachers watching the Quidditch match could have softened Harry's landing. Snape was simply on the alert for it, whereas the other teachers didn't know what was going on between Snape and Quirrell.

There are so many people who would like to take Voldemort out personally, and yes, with Wormtail and Snape at Voldemorts side, he shouldn't be sleeping too soundly considering how he treats his followers. Harry might not even need to raise a hand to him - the prophecy only said "either must die at the hand of the other," all that means is that with Harry destroying the Horcruxes, he is slowly killing Voldemort. It doesn't mean Harry has to be the one to finish him off.

[Sirius Potter Fan]

The trick here I think, is that does it count if you actually saved the life, or if you made the attempt. That being the case he has done it many times, if you remember even in PoA, Snape's intent in folowing Lupin to the shack was as much to Save Harry, still thinking that Black was the one responsible for Voldemort killing James and Lily. But, as mentioned, it realy isn't clear if the debt is transfered, or not. Could it be that since Snape did not save, or attempt to save James and Lily on "the" night, that that failure is what may have transfered the debt?

[Hermione]

SPF makes a valid point, Snape's motives were not always pure. I think in PoA, he really wanted to prove Lupin wrong, and get his Order of Merlin. Saving Harry was just one of those things that needed to get done.

Since Snape has declared his loyalty to Voldemort, was he only trying to save Harry because Voldemort needed him? In which case, he wasn't saving his life, he was stalling death.

[Alz]

Since Snape has declared his loyalty to Voldemort, was he only trying to save Harry because Voldemort needed him? In which case, he wasn't saving his life, he was stalling death.
That is another great comment there Mere!
You are right - Snape could have been saving Harry's life - but not saving it because he wanted to save him - but more to keep him alive ...
If that is the case - would the charm know - because it is said that it is complex magic.
I'm still of the opinion that Harry's life hasnt been under a point where he could honestly die yet - so all protection bonds are off until such time :)

[Piper]

Perhaps the reason JKR dismissed the idea of Voldermort owing a life debt to Harry is because it stated in the HBP that the saving of the life has to voluntary and with choice

From this, I do not take it that there was really a bond between Snape and James:

SS pg 300 US Edition
"Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy. And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive"
"What?" asked Harry
"He saved his life."
"What??"
"Yes, ...Said Dumbledore dreamily. "Funny, the way people's minds work, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt... I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father even. Then he could go on hating your father's memory in peace..."

Dumbledore just mentions this in terms of Snape being nice of his own accord, not on account of any bond or official debt that he owes to James.

And, Given Snape's on comments to Harry, when Harry mentioned his father saving Snape's life, I am not so sure that Snape feels he owed any debt to James, because it's true that James would have been in deep trouble had Snape died. This means he did not really have a CHOICE, in Snape's mind. Kind of a loophole.
Page 294 PoA Chapter 14
"I told you to shut up about my dad!"Harry Yelled. "I know the truth, all right? He saved your life! Dumbledore told me! You wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for my dad!"
Shape's sallow skin had gone the color of sour milk.
"And did the headmaster tell you the circumstances in which your father saved my life?" he wihspered. "Or did he consider the details too unpleasant for precious Potter's delicate ears?"
"I would hate for you to run away with a false idea of your father, Potter." he said, a terrible grin twisting his face. "Have you been imagining some act of glorious heroism? Then let me correct you- your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't got cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine. Had their joke succeeded, he would have been expelled from Hogwarts."


Dumbledore told us that wormtail owes Harry his life, that when one wizard saves anothers life, it creates a certain bond between them, This was in PoA, just after Harry realized Professor Threlawny had given another prophecy. Harry was pretty freaked out that he had let wormtail live, and that he was going off to serve Voldermort, and in the Graveyard in GoF, Wormtail did not make any attempt whatsoever to save Harry. I was expecting this, and wondered if maybe Dumbledore hadn't just been trying to calm Harry's nerves. We will have to see in the next book I guess. Wormtail and Harry would be the way more likely duo for the bond, wormtail even thanked Harry, and Harry did have a choice.

Are there other instances that I am not thinking of where a bond was created when one wizard saved another one? It sure would have been nice to have had a little more background on the 'old magic' that keeps coming up.

[Alz]

I wish to make 2 points here ...

As you quoted - and Dumbledore said - that when one wizard saves anothers life, it creates a certain bond between them - as such it isnt a choice - it is magic ...
The choice came from if to save them or not - once the life is saved - the bond is created.
James could have left Snape to be killed - but he made the choice not to and saved him - and sealed that bond.

Other point - was life in danger of being lost?
Pettigrew was going to be nailed by Remus and Sirius - but Harry stood in - yep, I really think they would have killed Pettigrew ...
Snape would have been killed by the Whomping Willow - James stepped in even thou he set it up ...

As such I feel it is legit - IMHO :)

[Piper]

I'm still not sure, I was thinking that it had to be a case where you saved someones life without any kind of personal gain. But Ok, let's look at it that way, that Snape owed his life to James, and James was killed as a result of Snape's being a death eater, so shouldn't something have happened to Snape? The bottom line is that he caused James's death when he ran to Voldermort, you woudl think it would be like the unbreakable vow, something would happen to you if you ignored a life debt bond. ??

It's just really bugging me why Wormtail didn't try to save Harry in GoF if this is such a big deal though. Clearly Harry was about to be killed by Voldermort, Voldermort announced his intentions, had wormtail untie Harry and give him back his wand. And it came down to him actually doing the AK Curse, and still NOTHING at all from Wormtail. And I was thinking that if Voldermort had succeeded, then Wormtail would have died from the AK Curse instead of Harry that night, so Harry was never in danger of being killed, but THEN think about James, and he died, instead of Snape, so that can't be it either, if both were bonded because of the life saving thing.

Like I said, it would have been nice to have a little more background on this.

[Alz]

I suppose this is my point - at such a point Harry would be in mortal, life threatening danger - Wormtail would have been called into action to prevent the death ...
We have to deduce that however this 'magic' works - it knows when someone really is in danger of dying ...

I also wonder if that 'side effect' of Snape leading to James death was to feel un-naturally bound to save Harry's life?
Perhaps that is what happened - he is being forced into protecting Harry because he caused the death of someone who he had a life debt to ...
Once again could go some way to why Dumbledore trust Snape - he knows that no matter what he can't not help Harry ...
Just a thought ...

I can see your point and somewhat agree thou - it doesn't make perfect sense in what we know and yeah if Wormtail is to preserve Harry's life - he would kill Voldemort at any point because after all - that is Harry's biggest danger of killing ...

[Sir Cadogan]

Just a minor detail here, Blaise:
Snape would have been killed by the Whomping Willow - James stepped in even thou he set it up ...
Snape was in danger of being bitten by Remus ... and James (or Sirius?) got Snape into this situation by telling him how to handle the Whomping Willow (which wasn't set up by James, but on Dumbledore's orders). That's how I remember it, anyway. ;)

[Alz]

Hey Sir Cad - look over there!!!! *Blaise runs off to hide in shame :o *
D'oh - guess my version is wrong :p - joking, caught me good there :p

On a side point on this - on a listening exercise on the way in the car - I heard something that might help here ...
People say that if Snape owed James a life debt - he would have had something happen to him because he told Voldemort about the Prophecy - and Voldemort attacked the Potters ...
Quite well explained by Dumbledore in HBP - Snape has no knowledge of who would die because of it - indeed even Voldemort had two choices - so in fact Snape didnt lead to their death - it was Voldemort who chose Harry and thus the Potters - not Snape ;)

[Piper]

Quite well explained by Dumbledore in HBP - Snape has no knowledge of who would die because of it - indeed even Voldemort had two choices - so in fact Snape didnt lead to their death - it was Voldemort who chose Harry and thus the Potters - not Snape

Ok I was WRONG WRONG WRONG on this, I wasn't trusting Dumbledore in HBP, I was thinking it was still an option that Snape did not come back to Dumbledore and join the order until maybe after the attack had been made, and James and Lily were dead. Because I looked this up on Lexicon-Harry Potter, and THEY did not know either. It said that it depended on Snape was telling Umbridge a literal time that he had been at Hogwarts, or a figuartive time. This is incorrect, we do in fact know that Snape came back to Dumbledore and joined the order, and even spied for the order. I found it in Goblet of Fire today, in the Chapter, The Pensive, where Harry is snooping into Dumbledore's Pensive and sees the wizard trials, pg 590 US Edition

"Not Yet!" Cried Karkaroff, looking quite desperate. "Wait, I have more!"
(He is naming off Death Eaters in an attempt to get out of Azkban)
Harry could see him sweating in the torchlight, his white skin contrasting strongly with the black of his hair and beard.
"Snape!" he shouted. "Severus Snape."
"Snape has been cleared by this council," said Crouch distainfully. "He has been vouched for by Albus Dumbledore."
"No!" shouted Karkaroff, straining at the chains that bound him to the chair. "I assure you! Severus Snape is a Death Eater!"
Dumbledore had gotten to his feet.
"I have given evidence already on this matter," He said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldermort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a death eater than I am." Harry turned to look at Mad-Eye Moody who was wearing a look of deep skepticism, behind Dumbledore's back.


Given the timeline, we can't even be certain that Lily and Alice were even pregnant yet . When Snape overheard the prophecy. The MOST they could have been pregnant when the prophecy was given was 2 months, as Sybil Threlawny was hired in the fall of 1979 sometime. 7 months of the pregnancies were in 1980, and it's possible she was hired before November, before conception even.
So as far as any bond to James, Snape would have certainly done his part to not break it, by going to dumbledore and joining the order and spying for them, before James was killed.

Also, in GoF, there is a time when it's possible that Wormtail may have tried to help Harry, he was left to guard Mr Crouch Sr. at the house, after Barth Crouch went to Hogwarts to impersonate Mad-Eye Moody, and Wormtail it says was lax, and Mr Crouch Sr. got away, went to Hogwarts, and tried to warn everyone that his son was on the loose. This was in the chapter where they were questioning Barty.

I am still not ready to give up my Snape is extremely evil and wants control of everything theory just yet though ;)