The H word - again

[Alz]

"But all the same, Tom ... Keep it quiet, what I've told - that's to say, what we've discussed. People wouldn't like to think we've been chatting about Horcruxes. It's a banned subject at Hogwarts, you know .... Dumbledore's particularly fierce about it ...."

This caught my eye.
We know the reason why perhaps you wouldnt want people discussing it - but why all out ban it?
The students are taught all manner of things in Defence Against the Dark Arts lessons - including the Unforgivable curses - so why does Dumbledore specifically ban talk on Horcuxes?

Let's face it - no normal student is going to take it on anymore than one doing AK.
I think there could be a specific reason Dumbledore ban's it - almost like he is very familiar with it - came across it before ...?

[Sirius Potter Fan]

Wow! So many places to go with this Blaise! I have thought on this before, but from a slightly different angle. Sluggy didn't want it to get back to Dumbledore. . .but. . . the headmaster at that time was still Dippet! Yet Slughorn was aparently more fearful of Dumbledore finding out. Coluld it have been that Grindewald had used a Horcrux? Or. . . Could Dumbledore have heard a prophesy about a new Dark Wizard arising, perhaps with "less than half a soul" or something like that, that would have triggered his protection of that knowledge.

And also. . .by that statement, it is aparant that the subject had been discussed at length previous to Riddles' inquiry. . . leading me to ask if Dumbledore may have suspected someone to ask about it.

[Hermione]

That is a valid point, why ban it? Students are taught all sort of things that are both illegal and legal, they came across dementors, unforgivable curses, so why not expose someone to this?

My other question is who banned it from Hogwarts? The MoM doesn't have much say over the running of the school these days, but did they back then? Was Dippet involved in the defeat of Grindelwald?

SPF brings up a good point. I think perhaps Dumbledore just supported the ban, and Slughorn didn't want word to reach his old friend. In the relationship, Dumbledore is the dominate one, and I could see were Slughorn wouldn't want to get into trouble.

[Alz]

Holy crap!!! :eek:
I didnt think of that SPF - Dumbledore wasnt in charge then - so how was he able to ba it :eek:
I mean OMG - this is really something more - really ....
My mind thought it was because Dumbledore was effected by the use of one at some point - and of course because he was Headmaster - but then - HE WASNT AT THE TIME :eek:
OMG - the possbilities now ... *Blaise shuffles off to think a lot more on this*

[Hermione]

I wonder if Grindelwald did use them, and since Dumbledore defeated him, he would have a strong say in the matter. He also recruited Tom Riddle.

[Piper]

Is it possible this was a JKR mistake, that she didn't realize Dippet was Headmaster then?

[mimbulus mimbletonia]

It doesn't say that Dumbledore banned it. Only that he was particularly against it.

Besides, if it wasn't such a hard topic to research, Tom wouldn't have needed to ask Slughorn about it, and DD subsequently wouldn't have had so much trouble recovering the memory. In fact if Tom had just looked it up in the library, there wouldn't be a memory at all. I think it's just written in that way to facilitate the necessary struggles to obtain the information DD and Harry needed.

[Hermione]

Besides, if it wasn't such a hard topic to research, Tom wouldn't have needed to ask Slughorn about it, and DD subsequently wouldn't have had so much trouble recovering the memory. In fact if Tom had just looked it up in the library, there wouldn't be a memory at all. I think it's just written in that way to facilitate the necessary struggles to obtain the information DD and Harry needed.

I disagree, if it is a banned topic then why would there be books in the library about it? If it's banned, they would want to remove the books, not just put them in the restricted section.

Another question is why ask Slughorn? He's the potions master, not the defense against dark arts teacher. Did he ask him simply because they were buddies or did he think Sluggy really had the answers or even experiance?

[mimbulus mimbletonia]

OK I thought there was no info in the library at all - sorry I have only read the book once :eek:

I think he asked Sluggy because he was the one person Tom could flatter and impress (wasn't he wearing Slytherin's ring?) into giving him such controversial information. None of the other professors would be so gullible.

[Hermione]

Maybe they would have. We have heard Dumbledore was the only one that Tom never fooled.

So perhaps he could have gone elsewhere, but chose Slughorn for other reasons besides flattery? We know very little about Slughorn's past except he was friends with DUmbledore. We also know he is not a death eater, as he couldn't conjour the dark mark when he staged an attack on his home.

[Piper]

This caught my eye.
We know the reason why perhaps you wouldnt want people discussing it - but why all out ban it?
The students are taught all manner of things in Defence Against the Dark Arts lessons - including the Unforgivable curses - so why does Dumbledore specifically ban talk on Horcuxes?


Voldermort started Hogwarts in 1938, JKR has said that when there is a Muggle war going on, there was a wizarding war going on also. During WW2, people were faced with so much evil, I can see where it would have been considered a good idea to reassess what students were allowed to learn regarding evil. Dumbledore did not manage to get Grindelwald killed until 1945, I am betting because of a horcrux. Also, this might be another reason why Tom Riddle was able to have pretty much free reign at Hogwarts with charming teachers, framing Hagrid, etc, if Dumbledore was preoccupied with fighting Wizard World War 2

[The Frozen North]

Just a quick point, if DD suspected Voldermort was using Horcruxes (see his referense to Tom Riddle's Diary) why did he wait so long to start tracking them down? He could have achieved so much more if he had not waited for Voldermort to return, giving Harry a much bigger advantage when it comes to the final and somewhat inevitable showdown.

[Alz]

"I haven't found a single explanation of what Horcruxes do!" she told him. "Not a single one! I've been right through the restricted section and even in the most horrible books, where they tell how to brew the most gruesome potions - nothing! All I could find was this, in the introduction to Magick Moste Evile - listen - 'Of the Horcrux, wickedest of magical inventions, we shall not speak nor give direction ...'

There was a single reference to it at Hogwarts in the current time- not sure that if there was ever more they have been removed in time.
The fact Dumbledore seemed to hate Horcruxes so much ... very interesting ... but you would have also thought that he might have done a better job if understanding that Riddle was using them ... especially if the other person was Grindelwald ... I mean dark lord and dark lord wannabe ...

[Witherwings]

DD knows so much about HCX because hes used it before...

eX: his ranting in HBP when he is drinking from the goblet, he witnessed several people he wanted to protect get killed so to prevent this from happening again he exacted revenge on the person and split his soul in two probably placing a piece in fawlkes. and since fawlkes is a pheonix DD cant die because fawllkes gets reborn over and over. And at the funeral a pheonix came out of the flames the other half of DD soul.

so DD is alive....

sorry that is a very unlikly story but i dont want DD out of the story yet.

[Alz]

See we have covered this argument before - and also the point you made kinda contradicts the thread starter - Dumbledore banned the subject at Hogwarts because for some reason he didnt want people finding out about them ...
For him to go do it himself would make him somewhat a hypocrite :p
I still feel it is rather strange that he banned the subject outright ... why would he have gone out of his way to ban that specifically?

[Weasleyfanforever]

I think that he banned them outright because maybe he knew what was coming, it hasn't ever been said that the prophecy from Sybill was the only one that he ever heard. We were never told why Dumbledore went to the orphanage to talk to Tom Riddle personally, but I think it is odd that he did. He didn't even go to get Harry, their possible savior, so what was it about Tom that made him go there personally?

We also know that Tom said that after the Chamber incident, Dumbledore watched him a little more closely. But we have heard Dumbledore say that he has watched Harry more closely than he could ever know, how do we know that he hasn't been watching Tom from the very beginning, because he was given the heads up?

I don't really have any basis for thinking that there was another prophecy about Voldemort way back when, but I think it would fit, and tie things together very well....

[Alz]

Last point is a killer because - shock of shocks - I agree!

I think Dumbledore had a prophecy made about him and Grindelwald - but in fact the reason we keep seeing them isn't because of the latest incarnation of the Dark Lord - it is the Dark Lord!
Picked up by HelenB and SM I think - there is increasing weight to the concept that we have these generational tussle's with Dark Lords - but in fact the ultimate Dark Lord - Salazar himself - is the one that needs vanquishing in order to stop this cycle of Dark Lords dying and resurrecting/re-generating into another Dark Lord of the times ...
Voldemort is a current form - Grindelwald was the last generation - both are vessel's for the ultimate Dark Lord.
I wish I had thought of that myself :( :D

[keeper of the horcrux]

Maybe they would have. We have heard Dumbledore was the only one that Tom never fooled.

So perhaps he could have gone elsewhere, but chose Slughorn for other reasons besides flattery? We know very little about Slughorn's past except he was friends with DUmbledore. We also know he is not a death eater, as he couldn't conjour the dark mark when he staged an attack on his home.

it didnt say that slughorn couldnt[I] conjour the dark mark but that he didnt have engough time to as harry and DD where walking into the room.

Also if only DEs can preform the dark mark then y wuld the ministry suspect the house elf and potters friends of conjouring it after the world cup.
that was a little off topic but it goes back to how slughorn culd have very well been a death eater and culd have known about horcruxes more than normal wizards. it is possible he even had created one before out of his own selfessness.

[Tom the Bar Man]

I'm not sure why DD was so strongly against the lesson of the Horcrux. Putting on a front for hiding something doesn't seem very smooth and Dumbledore-like, but he was younger then. My whole theory skirts this issue, but I'm not re-typing or taking up that much of web-space again, so you guys can go find it in the thread "Is Dumbledore Dead?" But as for the ultimate dark lord theory.... I don't bite. I think it is just the whole thing of where there is light, there must be dark, where there is good, there must be evil that provides the never-ending supply of dark lords

[Alz]

There was hints that others have tried Horcruxes before - I'm not sure that is a link that should go unoticed especially since Dumbledore has a rumble in his younger days with another Dark Lord. It was specifically said he banned the subject and this was even before he was Headmaster ...
Even Voldemort said he has gone further than any other person along that road - be it immortality but I think Dumbledore might have mentioned him knowing of at least one person that split their soul at least once ... or maybe it was Sluggy ... umm, guess I need to be reaching for the text again!

[peanutgal1]

There was hints that others have tried Horcruxes before - I'm not sure that is a link that should go unoticed especially since Dumbledore has a rumble in his younger days with another Dark Lord. It was specifically said he banned the subject and this was even before he was Headmaster ...
Even Voldemort said he has gone further than any other person along that road - be it immortality but I think Dumbledore might have mentioned him knowing of at least one person that split their soul at least once ... or maybe it was Sluggy ... umm, guess I need to be reaching for the text again!

No, your text is correct. However, in addition to Grindewald--who I think in the number one suspect for having previously created a horcrux--perhaps it was the Bloody Baron. The Bloody Baron has silver bloodstains on him. Maybe that's an indication that he tried a multitude of ways to stay alive. In fact, didn't Nick tell Harry that he was afraid to die and so chose to become a ghost? If it is the Baron, at least we'll have a source for horcruxes in book 7.

[Alz]

See I think the Baron is explained already by virtue of book one - the silver blood is that of a unicorn, while it sustains life, the life is cursed ...
I think the Bloody Baron is dying proof of what becomes of a person that slays a unicorn for purpose of drinking it's blood to sustain it's own life ... and I think this is the reason everyone else avoids him - he is cursed even in death...
That is how I read it ...
I am still vastly interested why Dumbledore had such foreboding over horcruxes, enough to ban the subject from texts in the school - also it would seem that Dumbledore's disclosure to Harry he suspected horcruxes late on my be a stretch of the truth - for someone who knew what they were and wanted the references eradicated from Hogwarts - I think he better than anyone would have a clue and maybe earlier on that he lead Harry to believe!

[christina]

i think some sorta prophecy was made. . . . hold on i just had an idea. . . . .it is highly possible grindewald used horcruxes. . . .did tom dislike dd?. . .i kno im not makin any sense here. . . . .wut im tryin to say is mayb tom wanted to kno the downfall of grindewald and he came across somethin sayin grindewald using horcruxes. . . we all kno tom was already somewhat evil by this point and was already a sorta wannab dark lord so mayb he would want to kno famous dark lords downfalls and he came across grindewald and his horcruxes. . .still dont kno y dd banned horcrux info in hogwarts . . . . just an idea

[Alz]

I think logically the reason Dumbledore banned the subject was he experienced first hand what can come of such magic ..
I mean why not ban AK and the likes - they are evil and cause death if in the wrong hands ... no, he decides to remove all traces of horcruxes ...
I still believe the idea and use of Horcruxes were not new to Dumbledore - so would he have been so niave if someone had decided to make use of them?
Let's speculate here - say he does come across someone who used them - he sorts them out and the threat is gone - he would have first hand experience of what happens to the wizard that creates horcruxes - physically seems more important here - so could he not attribute those physical aspects to Voldemort at their final meeting?
How Riddle found out about horcruxes is discussed elsewhere - how Dumbledore come to find out about them also I believe is discussed elsewhere - but the fact he knew enough about them to want to remove the knowledge from youngesters - that just seems unusal to me ...

[Lovegood54]

ok, i havent yet read every post here, but i want to say this even if it has been said before: Hogwarts doesnt teach the students Dark Arts. i remember in one of the books, Draco was talking to his friends saying that his father was thinking about sending him to Durmstrang because Durmstrang actually teaches its students the Dark Arts, not just how defend yourself from them. not to mention what Hermione tells Haryy: "Not a single one! I've been right through the restricted section and even in the most horrible books, where they tell how to brew the most gruesome potions - nothing! All I could find was this, in the introduction to Magick Moste Evile - listen - 'Of the Horcrux, wickedest of magical inventions, we shall not speak nor give direction ...'
to me, this suggests that the use and creation of a Horcrux is considered to be some of the darkest of the Dark Arts. the fact that Slughorn told Tom Riddel he didnt want Dumbledore to find out does suggest that maybe he had encountered them before and probably didnt want to see them again. since we know DD destroyrd Grindelwald, its most likely that it was Grindenwald's Horcrux he destroyed. Also, it would make sense for Grindelwald to have a horcrux. and i'm not 100% sure, but maybe Voldemort learned how to make Horcruxes from Grindelwald? i mean, i remember someone saying in one of the books that Voldemort consorted with the very worst of wizarding kind (i think it may have been dumbledore, but it could have been someone else) so if i am right, Horcruxes were probably always a banned subject at the school, because they 1) involve murder to make them and 2) they are very dark Dark Arts creation. oh, not mention they are teaching young wizards with the potential to be good or evil, and if the future-dark-wizards-be knew there was a way for them to create an object to become immortal, i dont think the school would want the blood of innocent witches and wizards on its hands for being the one who told the dark wizard about it and its function.

[nymphadora]

That's a very good point Lovegood54, Hogwarts doesn't teach the dark arts, they teach the defence against it. I believe DD banned it because he knew no good could come of it (as you said Lovegood54, it involves murder). I believe that the reason they teach the unfogivables (banned by the ministry, but approved by Dumbledore) is because they can use it in self-defence. I mean, you're not likely to hit your opponent with the jelly-legs curse if they're trying to kill you, right?

[Lovegood54]

Last point is a killer because - shock of shocks - I agree!


Picked up by HelenB and SM I think - there is increasing weight to the concept that we have these generational tussle's with Dark Lords - but in fact the ultimate Dark Lord - Salazar himself - is the one that needs vanquishing in order to stop this cycle of Dark Lords dying and resurrecting/re-generating into another Dark Lord of the times ...
Voldemort is a current form - Grindelwald was the last generation - both are vessel's for the ultimate Dark Lord.
I wish I had thought of that myself :( :D

ok i have just one problem with this idea, and that is this: Evil doesnt just exist in a blood line. think about it, if all the previous "dark lords", like Grindelwald (if he even refered to himself as Dark Lord) are the descendants of Salazar Slytherin, then that would mean being evil is heriditary. problem with this? well, for one the Gaunts (Voldemort's birth family) didnt try to take over the wizarding world like Voldemort. also, there is nothing in canon connecting Grindelwald to Salazar Slytherin. the idea that evil is heriditary also doesnt work since it seems the muggle world history in HP is basically the history of the real world. since we know that in this world evil is not heriditary, since Hitler came from just a regular family, as just about every evil person we know from history. and since we know the world of HP works in a similar manner as to how people become who they are, we must assume that evil is not heriditary in wozards. also, this is something i came upon when contemplating why God allows Satan exist in this world, if u think about it, how is it we define what is good? ook, we know what is good and what is evil right? well, lets say evil is eliminated for ever. ok, now how do we define what is good since there is nothing to compare it too? by eliminating evil, or good for that matter, all things and actions become neutral, neither good or evil. because we are human, we need evil to define what is good. not mention i think that would be a very cheesy ending to the series: "And Harry defeated Voldemort, and all evil for all time, and all the pur-blood and half-blood witches and wizards who were prejudiced against muggle-borns stopped being prejudiced because Voldemort had been the source of all this prejudice, you see? and now that he was gone, everyone magically came to see everyone with the potential to due magic and those who are born squibs, because the prejudiced pur-bloods hated them too, as equal. yes, the death of Voldemort made everyone love each other. the end." ok, let me ask this: does that sound like something JKR would say? not to me. and we do know that all evil was caused by Salazar Slytherin, because no evil existed before him, right? wrong. evil is something that always existed and always will.

[secret seeker]

I dont think too much of that, honestly. The point Alz was trying to make was;
Salazar slytherin was probably one of the first dark wizards to not only detest muggle borns but he constructivly devised ways to eliminate and isolate them from the wizarding world. They are not saying ALL the dark lords since, are blood descendants, but merely incarnations of Salazars hatred and prejudice.

Jo has given away too much back history with regards to the four founders, and the fued between Salazar and Godric, I dont think was ever fully disputed or resolved in either opinions. I see Harry as a modern day Godric griffindor and Tom riddle as/is the modern day Salazar slytherin. What are the chances of only one wizard being able to destroy Riddle?, and why only one?, The prophecy ultimatley means nothing unless you live by it, as Voldemort does. This millenia old feud has never been concluded, until book 7. I wouldnt be surprised if book 7 were called :

" Harry Potter and The four founders "

Im not saying you should agree, but look at it logically, why add so much about the founders if it were never to be resolved, and everything centers on Hogwarts as well as Harry, and after all, they the built it, so who would know it better?. I think Fawkes the pheonix IS Godric griffindor, after all the pheonix cannot die so its possible...

" Voldemort is the last surviving line of Slytherin" and " only a true griffindor could pull that out of the hat " and " not slytherin..not slytherin.. ". Too many little incedences and situations regarding this have cropped up, to be unnoticable and meaningless. Far too many.

Defeating Voldemort/Slytherin will NEVER eliminate evil, for it cannot be done while there is free will to choose. Eliminating free will, will eliminate choice and consequence, only that could eliminate evil ( and good). As Dumbledore said " it is our choices that define us, not our abilities". This was exactly what he meant. You either choose right or wrong but it is still a choice made, with regards to your standpoint to right or wrong.
Voldemort sees himself as the greatest wizard FREEING the wizard world from the filth that are muggleborns. He sees no wrong because that is how he sees it, if you understand what I mean...

SIRIUS LIVES!!

[Alz]

Well summed up there secret seeker ...

I dont want to drift too far of the mark here - I mean sure they dont teach Dark Arts at Hogwarts but they dont outright ban them ... Dumbledore banned all notions of Horcruxes ... now if it was just an opinion thing, he could also have removed Dark Arts from the schools libraries and lesson but he doesnt mind people reading about them and learning to defend themselves against them ... horcruxes is different ...