The Cave!

[The Welsh Witch]

'Payment?' said Harry. 'You've got to give the door something?'
'Yes,' said Dumbledore. 'Blood, if I am not much mistaken.'
'Blood?'
'I said it was crude,' said Dumbledore, who sounded disdainful, even disappointed, as though Voldermort had fallen short of the standards Dumbledore expected. HBP, 'The cave' pg 523 UK version

'You are very kind, Harry,' said Dumbledore, now passing the tip of his wand over the deep cut he had made in his own arm, so that it healed instantly, just as Snape had healed Malfoy's wounds. 'But your blood is worth more than mine.' HBP, 'The cave' pg 523 UK version


Is it just me or could there be a deep and more sinister meaning here, after all how on earth did Dumbledore find that cave, it wasn't exactly easy to get to?

[Hermione]

It was the cave that Voldemort went to in his days in the orphanage. He did something to the children in the orphanage, and they weren't ever the same.

I can see why the blood request was crude, in HP blood is so significant of who a person is, it is an extension of their finger print. The cave is asking the person to leave a peice of themselves.

But how was Dumbledore able to access the wall and get in once he found the cave? I don't know.

[The Welsh Witch]

Yes but why did Dumbledore sound 'disdainful' and 'disappointed', why not 'glad' that Voldermort was obviously not as clever as he thought he was, surely this would make Harry's and his job a lot easier, knowing this! ....... It just seemed like the disappointment a teacher would feel and although he was Voldermort's teacher this isn't the reaction I would expect from him under the circumstances!

And why is Harry's blood more important than his, is he not after all one of the great wizards? What if it needed a Death Eater's blood to open the cave?

[George]

Okay- a rock that requires blood. It could be that it serves as a kind of an altar, that exercises some form of ancient magic through which the sacrifice of blood was used for a purpose, in this case, the opening of a doorway. Perhaps Dumbledore was aware of this kinda thing, and knew just what had to be done.
And, OF COURSE Harry's blood is more important than Dumbledore's- isn't he, after all, The Boy Who Lived? The guy that can destroy the Dark Lord for good? So, he is, in fact, one of the most important wizards in existence because of that reason! And, when Dumbledore said: "Your blood is more important than mine", he may not have meant it to be the same for everyone. We all know that Dumbledore was selfless, and, as a result, preferred to cause himself a bit of discomfort, instead of using Harry's blood. He us saying that because, TO HIM, Harry's blood was more important than anyone else's in the world- but it may not be like that in the rest of the world.... it is very possible that Harry's blood posesses no real quality about it, and Dumbledore simply said it to show his love for Harry. Thoughts?

[halliemei]

I do wonder what might have been different if Harry's blood had been used to come in. It might have answered the questions of the gleam in DD's eye at the end of GoF. The blood offering MIGHT be what determines the response of the Infiri and/or the liquid in the basin. ADVANCED magic of "If Then" like in programming. :p


Well, it's an idea, anyway.

[Alz]

Yes but why did Dumbledore sound 'disdainful' and 'disappointed', why not 'glad' that Voldermort was obviously not as clever as he thought he was, surely this would make Harry and his job a lot easier, knowing this! ....... It just seemed like the disappointment a teacher would feel and although he was Voldermort's teacher this isn't the reaction I would expect from him under the circumstances!

And why is Harry's blood more important than his, is he not after all one of the great wizards? What if it needed a Death Eater's blood to open the cave?
Gotta like the way this one thinks - DiE :evil1:
You know what - I will be one of the very few that are with you on this :D
It is well noted that occasions where Dumbledore should be happy are often met with strange looks but him ;)

Another good point I liked is if the blood offered could change the trials inside ..
Think about it - perhaps the obsticles are dynamic by nature and the blood offered at the start would have multiple bearing once inside ... also like the challenges are modelled to the host.
Another thought I had was that it would have required pureblood to access the cave - hence why Dumbledore politely declined Harry - his blood wouldnt have been suitable to enter such a place ...
I know Voldemort was a half blood - but chances are he wouldnt have to endure the same trials to get access :p

[Piper]

Maybe this was a reference to Voldermort choosing Harry's blood in Goblet of Fire, when he needed the "blood of an enemy". Harry's blood worked. He didn't choose Dumbledore for blood, of course Harry was much easier to get defenseless and alone, but I wonder if Dumbledore's blood would have worked, or if any other blood would have worked really. This could be what Dumbledore meant.

But I can also really see it as a term of endearment though, because Dumbledore does/did love Harry very much.

[The Welsh Witch]

What about how he knew exactly where the cave was? It was extremely well hidden and hard to get to, Dumbledore doesn't tell Harry how he found it, he just says that it was the cave that Tom Riddle had taken his young victims from the orphanage, as far as I can see the only way he would have been able to find out was from the victims themselves but there's no mention of this and what about when he and Harry got there?


'Yes, this is the place,' said Dumbledore.
'How can you tell?' Harry spoke in a whisper.
'It has known magic,' Dumbledore said simply.

Surely Dumbledore would have made certain that it was the place before he took Harry there?

[Piper]

Surely Dumbledore would have made certain that it was the place before he took Harry there?

Given that Dumbledore was so overprotective of Harry in the past that he wouldn't even tell him about the Prophecy, it seems out of character that he would have just taken to him to this cave loaded with danger. Either Dumbledore checked the cave out prior to taking Harry, even went in and looked around, and was just putting on an act for Harry, to make him feel more grow up and trusted, or he was being impersonated. But I have not came up with any plausable way for him to have been impersonated, the closest thing I have seen is a wild idea about wormtail drinking polyjuice potion, imitating Dumbledore, and that was based on wormtail having boiled his right hand, and Dumbledore appearing with a black hand that looked as though it had been melted! So I have to go with Dumbledore checked it out first.

[Alz]

That's an interesting deduction there Piper :)
You kinow that also opens up possibilities that perhaps even someone else accompanied Dumbledore on the advanced scouting mission ... Dumbledore was noted throughout HBP as being away from Hogwarts for periods of time ... perhaps he was checking out the cave location - seeing what suprises are there so that when he did take it on - he wouldnt end up with more than a dead hand ... I like it!

[The Frozen North]

Gotta like the way this one thinks - DiE :evil1:
You know what - I will be one of the very few that are with you on this :D
It is well noted that occasions where Dumbledore should be happy are often met with strange looks but him ;)

Another good point I liked is if the blood offered could change the trials inside ..
Think about it - perhaps the obsticles are dynamic by nature and the blood offered at the start would have multiple bearing once inside ... also like the challenges are modelled to the host.
Another thought I had was that it would have required pureblood to access the cave - hence why Dumbledore politely declined Harry - his blood wouldnt have been suitable to enter such a place ...
I know Voldemort was a half blood - but chances are he wouldnt have to endure the same trials to get access :p


I have had many similar thoughts myself but I must disagree on the pureblood thought as despite his mother being muggle born, Harry himself is pureblood, ie wizarding mother and father (or as pureblood as most at least).

I'm a big fan of the trials varying with the sacrificed blood theory. I'm thinking that only the one who sacrifices the blood can actually retrieve the horcrux and as Harry was unlikely to be able to handle the obstacles (as shown by his reaction to the infery) DD wanted to make sure it was he that would face these obstacles.

The Death Eater theory goes quite well with the DD is alive and it was possibly Wormtail using polyjuice that got killed on the roof-top.

[Alz]

Harry is a half blood - Dad was a Wizard - Mum was a muggle - confirmed with the many 'muggle born eyes' comments JKR keeps making ..
See given Voldemort's obsession (and yes contradiction) with the pure blood concept - it just might have been that only a real, pureblood wizard could make the entry - would certainly help with security based on the fact there arent a huge amount of them left anymore- and would keep mudbloods and half bloods out ;)

[Tonks]

As far as the bloodlines go, there is really an emphasis on people only being pureblood if magic goes back through both sides of their family.. so, even though Lily was a witch, she was born a Muggle and so her blood would not have been considered "pure".. back to the cave though..

I really don't think there would be a certain type of blood needed to open the cave entrance, and that it wouldn't specifically take Harry's because he's a Half Blood. If so, it wouldn't take Voldemort's either because he's a Half Blood as well..

I think Dumbledore was probably pretty certain that this was the cave that Voldemort had brought the orphanage kids to years before, but other than that, I really don't think he checked it out beforehand. He promised Harry could come along and he did warn him it was going to be dangerous - he made him promise to do exactly what Dumbledore said I guess.. but I can't see him just pretending that he'd never been there before if he had been - I think he would've told Harry if that was the case.

[Alz]

Actually I need to contradict my point on the blood - after the inferi attack and potion drinking it is Harry's blood that releases them from the cave - Dumbledore offers once again but Harry said he was already cut after the fight with the inferious ...

[Piper]

Interesting here that you need blood to get in and blood to get out isn't it? She could have easily just left it that the initial blood was enough couldn't she?

Most readers wouldn't have given it a second thought. There could be something to this.

[Alz]

Yah I was kinda thinking that ... I wondered if it was to stop the inferi leaving - not sure they bleed or not :p
But in all seriousness - I thought it was a littl stange - magic like that you would figure would just be to initially enter the location ..
I wonder if perhaps Voldemort can analyse the blood that is left - that way he would know who was in there .. might mean he also knows who RAB was ;)

[gumshoe]

I for one have an interesting addition to the "what if he was impersonated" train of thought; it wasn't well-received (if anyone took note of it at all) on other boards, and it is kind of out-there: I think it's possible that Slughorn impersonated Dumbledore in the cave/tower scene. It would be a neat explanation to many of the oddities and inconsistencies so far brought up here in this thread as well as many others (probably noted in other threads). The "value" of blood, the disappointment in a former student, the out of character remarks, the toast before he drinks the first goblet...

and more...

So, if there's sufficient interest in me explaining this nutty notion further, shall I pursue it here? Or in the wild speculation department? I'll just drop it if it's too ridiculous.

gumshoe

[Alz]

The "value" of blood, the disappointment in a former student, the out of character remarks, the toast before he drinks the first goblet...

and more...

So, if there's sufficient interest in me explaining this nutty notion further, shall I pursue it here? Or in the wild speculation department? I'll just drop it if it's too ridiculous.

gumshoe
OK - first rule of MP - never dismiss wild speculation - I said around 3 years ago that Dumbledore would die in book 6 - people told me I was crazy (A case I cant argue with) but wild spec had lead to some very good predictions!
I would urge you to share it - and any others!
I would crack it into a new thread - call it Gumshoe's wild spec or something - that is what I usually do :D

[Piper]

On definately do tell! Wild speculation is important. Who would have thought that Mad-Eye Moody was being impersonated in PoA? Of course she didn't leave us hanging like she has with this book. :)

[The Frozen North]

Mad-Eye Moody was being impersonated in PoA?
Sorry to be picky but it was in GoF

[Alz]

Going back to the blood point - do you think it might be possible Voldemort was able to extract the blood back out again - and then add it to his own?
We saw that he valued Harry's blood and thought it would strengthen him - what if he planned to do that with others - only great wizards could have gotten in there etc - what if he was planning to use the blood to strengthen himself?

[gbogbo]

I do wonder what might have been different if Harry's blood had been used to come in. It might have answered the questions of the gleam in DD's eye at the end of GoF. The blood offering MIGHT be what determines the response of the Infiri and/or the liquid in the basin. ADVANCED magic of "If Then" like in programming. :p


Well, it's an idea, anyway.

This really strikes me as important. If Harry's blood caused the basin to respond as it did, then perhaps Dumbledore's words, while drinking the basin dry, were Harry's memories not Dumbledore's. We have all suspected that they are the worst memories of the drinker. But maybe they are the worst memories of the blood sacrificer.

Maybe Dumbledore wasn't at Godric Hollow after all?!!

[Piper]

gbogbo,

It was Dumbledore's blood used.

Alz,

I suspect that Voldermort does have plans for Harry's blood, and that is why he has all of the Death Eaters under orders to NOT kill Harry.....
Not only did Snape not kill Harry at the end of HBP, he called the other Death Eaters off, reminding them that Voldermort wanted Harry left for himself. It could just be that if Harry dies, Voldermort's body goes away, or it could be that Voldermort can use Harry's blood, like you said, to give himself stregnth.

[Sirius Potter Fan]

Alz, I like the idea of Voldemort being able to extract the blood of the wizards who entered . . . not only might he have a way to use it to strengthen himself, but perhaps a way to give some kind of protection from each particular wizard if attacked by them in the future as well . . . (well, but then, he didn't expect them to leave I think) Still, him getting strength from it makes sense.

On Voldemort's orders not to kill Harry, I don't think that it was him wanting to use Harry's blood for something else . . . I believe that he is so infuriated by being disgraced in front of his DE's in the grave yard, that a mere boy got the best of him yet again, that he wants to prove himself by being the one to kill him when the time comes . . . (but he won't!) Voldemort's biggest downfall is his pride in his "superiority"