The Moment?

[Alz]

"I dunno, Harry, I shouldn'ta heard it at all! I --well, I was comin' outta the forest the other evenin' an' I overheard 'em talking -- well, arguin'. Didn't like ter draw attention to meself, so I sorta skulked an' tried not ter listen, but it was a -- well, a heated discussion an' it wasn' east ter block it out."
"well?" Harry urged him, as Hagrid shuffled his enormous feet uneasily.
"Well -- I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he -- Snape -- didn' wan' ter do it anymore --"
"Do what?"
"I dunno, Harry, It sounded like Snape was feelin' a bit over-worked, tha's all -- anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed to do it an' that was all there was to it. Pretty firm with him. An' then he said sommat abou' Snape makin' investigations in his House, in Slytherin. Well, there's nothin' strange abou' that!"

I wondered if this might have been the occasion Dumbledore took to remind Snape that no matter what - if the case dictated it - he should kill him ...
Dumbledore tells Snape flat out he agreed to do it.
As speculated elsewhere - some people agree that Snape was left with little choice but to kill Dumbledore - could this be the moment Dumbledore tells him to forget about everything and just kill him if the need dictated?

It reminds me a lot of Dumbledore and Harry when he makes Harry swear to follow orders such as run, hide or go back before they went to the cave - or when he told Harry to make him keep drinking no matter what .. like Harry agreed :)

[Fortescue]

I was just reading that passage yesterday. I got the same feeling - Snape had told Dumbledore he'd do the deed, and then was getting cold feet. I can only guess what they were talking about: maybe Snape agreed to kill Dumbledore if he had to - it could even be read as Snape was tired of being a double spy and just wanted to work for Dumbledore and the Order, but Dumbledore reminded him of his promise to spy on Voldemort as long as he could. :rolleyes:

[Boing]

What gets me about that is what would Dumbledore be taking for granted? That Snape would always be able to be a double spy? It seems a bit out of place for Snape to be telling Dumbledore he's taking things for granted . . .

But I agree, that could be the part where Dumbledore tells him to suck it up and deal with killing him . . . :p

[Piper]

I wondered if this might have been the occasion Dumbledore took to remind Snape that no matter what - if the case dictated it - he should kill him ...
Dumbledore tells Snape flat out he agreed to do it.


Let's look at the timeline. Dumbledore and Snape have this argument after Harry tells Dumbledore about the conversation that he overheard outside of Slughorn's Christmas Party.


"... cannot afford mistakes, Draco, because if you are expelled-"
"I didn't have anything to do with it, all right?"
"I hope you are telling the truth, because it was both clumsy and foolish. Already you are suspected of having a hand in it."
"Who suspects me?" said Malfoy angrily. "For the last time, I didn't do it, okay? That Bell girl must've had an enemy no one knows about-don't look at me like that! I know what you are doing, I'm not stupid, but it won't work-I can stop you!"
There was a pause and then Snape said quietly, "Ah.... Aunt Bellatrix has been teaching you Occlumency, I see. What thoughts are you trying to conceal from your master, Draco?"
"I'm not trying to conceal anything from HIM, I just don't want YOU butting in!"
"So that is why you have been avoiding me this term? You have feared my interference? You realize that, had anybody else falied to come to my office when I had told them repeatedly to be there, Draco-"
"So put me in detention! Report me to Dumbledore!" Jeered Malfoy.
There was another pause. Then Spane said, "You know perfectly well that I do not wish to do either of those things."
"You'd better stop telling me to come to your office then!"
"Listen to me," said Snape, his voice so low that now Harry had to push his ear very hard against the keyhole to hear. "I am trying to help you. I swore to your mother I would protect you. I made the Unbreakable Vow, Draco-"
"Looks like you'll have to break it, then, because I don't need your protection! It's my job, he gave it to me and I'm doing it, I've got a plan and it's going to work, it's just taking a bit longer than I thought it would!"
"What is your plan?"
"It's none of your business!"
"If you tell me what you are trying to do, I can assist you-"
"I've got all of the assistance I need, thanks, I am not alone!"
"You were certainly alone tonight, which was foolish in the extreme, wandering the corriders without lookouts or backup, these are elementary mistakes-"
"I would have had Crabbe and Goyle with me if you hadn't put them in detention!"
"Keep your voice down!" spat Snape, for Malfoy's voice had risen excitedly. "If your friends Crabbe and Goyle intend to pass their Defense Against the Dark Arts O.W.L. this time around they will need to work a little harder than they are doing at pres-"
"What does it matter?" said Malfoy. "Defense Against the Dark Arts- it's all a joke, isn't it, an act? Like any of us need protection against the Dark Arts-"

"It's an act that is crucial to success, Draco!" said Snape. "Where do you think I would have been all of these years, if I had not known how to act? Now listen to me! You are being incautions, wandering around at night, getting yourself caught, and if you are placing your reliance in assistants like Crabbe and Goyle-"
"They're not the only ones, I've got other people on my side, better people!"
"Then why not confidein me and I can-"
"I know what you're up to! You want to steal my Glory!"
There was another pause and Snape said coldly, "You are speaking like a child. I quite understand that your father's capture and imprisonment has upset you but-"
Then Malfoy stormed out.

After Harry tells Dumbledore of this conversation, Dumbledore tells him that he has told him nothing which causes him disquiet. Harry wonders if this is true. Then Dumbledore has an argument with Snape clearly about this, because he says something about Snape making investigation's into his house, which Hagrid takes to mean Slytherin.

So given the timing, I think this argument was probably more along the lines of Dumbledore being upset that Malfoy is a loose cannon and has endangered the life of a student, and just putting pressure on Snape to find out what is going on. If in fact Snape was on the up and up with him and had filled him on concerning the plan for Draco to kill him, and the Unbreakable Vow.

Now if it goes the other way, if Snape had NOT been honest about the plan for Malfoy to kill him, and about the vow, it could have been just Dumbledore feeling Snape out.

But I don't know why Dumbledore would have been worried about Snape making inquiries into his house if he were just taking an occasion to remind Snape that no matter what, he had agreed to kill Dumbledore if it came down to it.

[Hermione]

We've got to remember this is something Hagrid overheard. This means when he tells Harry and Hermione, he may have forgotten something or skimmed over something important. It's not Hagrid's fault, it's human error.

It does seem that the spy role would fit easily into the mold, but why would Snape confess that he was tired of it? Perhaps it was trailing Draco, in which case what does Dumbledore have to do with it? As far as we know Snape made an Unbreakable Vow with Narssica, but maybe it was on DD's orders?

The only other senario I can think of is taking on the Dark Arts teaching post, perhapshe discovered he really didn't want to do it after all, and wants to leave Hogwarts full time. After all, he arranged that to happen at the end of the book.

[Alz]

I was just reading that passage yesterday. I got the same feeling - Snape had told Dumbledore he'd do the deed, and then was getting cold feet. I can only guess what they were talking about: maybe Snape agreed to kill Dumbledore if he had to - it could even be read as Snape was tired of being a double spy and just wanted to work for Dumbledore and the Order, but Dumbledore reminded him of his promise to spy on Voldemort as long as he could. :rolleyes:
I have to say I agree more with this reasoning ...
Snape was in the DADA job - he was almost content - he even scored one better than his Dark boss - I really think he just wanted to stop doing the Voldemort spying thing and settle into a peaceful exisitance ...
I think Dumbledore knew of the unbreakable vow and that he also knew by now Draco's mission - I think he was re-iterating to Snape that no matter what - he couldnt break the vow - otherwise he would die - and as such Dumbledore sealed his own death sentance ...

[Fortescue]

So given the timing, I think this argument was probably more along the lines of Dumbledore being upset that Malfoy is a loose cannon and has endangered the life of a student, and just putting pressure on Snape to find out what is going on. If in fact Snape was on the up and up with him and had filled him on concerning the plan for Draco to kill him, and the Unbreakable Vow.


I think Dumbledore knew about the vow - and, yes, Malfoy was a "loose cannon", but Snape knew he had to get Draco's confidence or there was no chance of finding out what he was up to, which he obviously never did. I think auntie Bellatrix placed a lot of doubts in Draco's mind about Snape while she was teaching him Occlumency, and Draco no longer trusted his head of house.



Snape was in the DADA job - he was almost content - he even scored one better than his Dark boss - I really think he just wanted to stop doing the Voldemort spying thing and settle into a peaceful exisitance ...

True, he did finally get the DADA job he'd always wanted, but why?
He got the job so Dumbledore could bring Slughorn back to teach potions and get the true copy of that memory of Riddle. Had he needed someone with a DADA background's memory, Snape would still be teaching potions, so maybe Snape looked upon that with a little disgust - after all he was sort of being used by Dumbledore. He got the job he always wanted, but what would he be doing the following year when and if Slughorn decided to go back into retirement?

[Piper]

As far as we know Snape made an Unbreakable Vow with Narssica, but maybe it was on DD's orders?

I don't think it could have been that he made the vow on Dumbledore's orders, because it couldn't have been foreseen that Narcissa would go to Snape easily. Bellatrix did her very best to talk her out of going to Snape even.

I'm still not sure that Snape really knew of the plan before that visit. I agree with Fortense that Bellatrix probably taught Snape Occlumency and put the ideas in his head against Snape it kind of makes me think that she was not convinced that Voldermort had entrusted Snape with it either. Even after seeing him take the unbreakable vow. And Draco did not seem to know of the Unbreakable vow before Snape told him, after Slughorn's Christmas Party: "Looks like you'll have to break it, then, because I don't need your protection!
That could be because Narcissa did not want Draco to think she had doubts about his ability to kill Dumbledore though.


One thing we all have overlooked in wondering if Snape is good, or if he is evil, is that it's possible that he was very torn. That he was sure he was good until Voldermort returned, and then it was like the call of the wild so to speak, tempting him back. It says that Dumbledore never gave him the DADA Job before because he didn't want to tempt him with the other side, and this year, Snape does get the job, Voldermort IS back, Snape saying that maybe he doesn't want to do it anymore might have been more along the lines of a cry for help really, this is very Shakespherian, and JKR does love that.