Voldemort and love...?

[Padma Patil]

Pg. 277 Ch. 13, The Secret Riddle - HBP (Dumbledore speaking)

"I turst that you also noticed that Tom Riddle was already hightly self-sufficient, secretive, and apparently, friendless? He did not want help or campanionship on his trip to Diagon Alley. He preffered to operate alone. The adult Voldemort is the same. You will hear many of his Death Eaters claiming that they are in his confidence, that they alone are close to him, even understand him. They are deluded. Lord Voldemort has never had a friend, nor do I believe that he has ever wanted one."

Ok, last night I came across this part while reading and a thought came to me. So many people have said it, but what if all Voldemort really needs is a friend. Perhaps all Harry has to do is make friends with the Tom Riddle inside and Voldemort will be destroyed. Of course this is after all the horcruxes are gone. Maybe all Harry has to do is show Tom Riddle love and then everything will go back to being okay.

Or its as most people think and Harry just has to kill them both. What are your thoughts on the issue?

[Alz]

I think the unknown scares Voldemort a lot - might account for why so many of you point towards him being a power freak ... because he controls what he is exposed to.
I think fundamentally what Voldemort lacks is a conscious - and that is because he lacks real positive feelings - I mean he has the negative feelings down to a T!
I think if Voldemort was ever made to feel love, affection, regret etc - this would rip him apart because he knows his life was filled with death and killings - to suddenly feel a small ounce of regret of compassion would really kill him mentally!
He could do what he does because he doesn't know or understand the hurt he can cause .. if he could ever be made to feel the feelings that stop a normal person from living like him - then his reactions would probably lead to his own demise ... he wouldn't need to be killed he would take his own life rather than feel what he has done...

[Fortescue]

First, I don't think Harry has to die in order for Voldemort to be killed, never have, never will! :p

I agree with some of what Blaise said, but I don't think that giving Voldemort a big hug or a Valentine card is going to make a difference to him, it would just give him a chance to kill the giver. :rolleyes: He is beyond all that. His soul is gone - split into bits, and it can't be mended. Dumbledore simply stated the facts about Voldemort as he sees them through his many years of experience observing him.

Voldemort trusts no one but himself, as such, he can't ever care about anyone but himself. If he ever showed any kind of caring for another person it's not been evident to Dumbledore. Voldemort only cares about power and how he can get more - considering all the things he seems to overlook or forget all together, the fact that he isolates himself from his followers is a very dangerous thing. They all believe they are his most loyal confident, when in all reality he tells no one anymore than they need to know to carry out his orders. When all the Death Eaters realize that they really aren't his most loyal, I'm sure there will be a little dissention in the ranks.

[Piper]

I don't think we have been given enough information on Voldermort himself to determine whether it would be possible for someone to love him and cause such a breakthrough. We know he was unhappy at the orphanage, and that the woman running it was a drinker, but we weren't told of any severe neglect or abuse such as would have caused such an empthyless person. From what we know to date, Voldermort's childhood was no more unhappy than Harry's IMO. So she really hasn't gotten in too deeply with any cause for Voldermort.


But Voldermort aside, where we are with Harry, I don't think it would be possible for him to ever extend such an olive branch. A scene in Goblet of Fire comes to mind, where he just learned of the fate of Nelville's parents, and he's laying awake listening to Nelville sleep, thinking of all of the people who have had their lives destroyed and such from Voldermort. And then it comes to mind when Dumbledore was making Harry understand that the prophecy isn't so important, that no matter what, he would want Voldermort dead, and he would want to be the one to do it.

[The Frozen North]

Just a quick thought on Harry and his feelings towards Voldermort. Harry has every reason to hate Voldermort, no question about that but Harry is now growing up and becoming more aware of himself and his own innner workings (and understanding more too). As he does this I think through maturity and his inate disire to do what is good and right, he will stop hating Voldermort. I has been said that we should "Hate the sin but love the sinner", this is not only for the good of the sinner (possible redemption ans all that - no doubt that there is little chance of this in Voldermort's case) but for the good of those sinned against. Revenge is seldom satisfactory and does nothing to remove the pain. I recently heard someone quoting a phrase they had heard, "Unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expection the other person to die!" JKR has a good moral undertone in all her writing, and while not preaching to us, she is showing how good will eventually always win over evil, despite the battle being etarnal. Not too sure how it will work but I too believe that love will somehow be the undoing of Voldermort (plus JKR keeps making referances to love being the most powerfull force (magic) known. I'll just finnish my ramblings with a quote for Martin Luther King "When evil men plot, good men must plan. When evil men shout ugly words of hatred, good men must commit themselves to the glory of love."

[Piper]

TFN:

I agree with what you are saying about JKR and her writing style. When Dumbledore is telling him that the prophecy isn't what matters, he asks Harry, what if Voldermort had never heard the prophecy, never killed your parents, and Harry answers that he would still want him to be destroyed, and he would still want to be the one to do it. So I don't see Harry as driven by personal hatred, wanting revenge, I see him as understanding that life as they all know it is at stake, and it has fallen to him to fight the battle. Not for his own personal vendetta, but for the good of all.

In showing us the empathy that Harry feels for Nelville, I think she showed us too, that it can't just be a case of Harry forgiving Voldermort for himself, what Harry can't overlook is the pain and suffering of others. That is why I do not think he could ever extend that friendship olive branch to Voldermort.

[Alz]

I don't think we have been given enough information on Voldermort himself to determine whether it would be possible for someone to love him and cause such a breakthrough. We know he was unhappy at the orphanage, and that the woman running it was a drinker, but we weren't told of any severe neglect or abuse such as would have caused such an empthyless person. From what we know to date, Voldermort's childhood was no more unhappy than Harry's IMO. So she really hasn't gotten in too deeply with any cause for Voldermort.


But Voldermort aside, where we are with Harry, I don't think it would be possible for him to ever extend such an olive branch. A scene in Goblet of Fire comes to mind, where he just learned of the fate of Nelville's parents, and he's laying awake listening to Nelville sleep, thinking of all of the people who have had their lives destroyed and such from Voldermort. And then it comes to mind when Dumbledore was making Harry understand that the prophecy isn't so important, that no matter what, he would want Voldermort dead, and he would want to be the one to do it.
JKR had this to say on the subject

Has Voldemort or Tom Riddle ever cared for or loved anyone?

Now, that’s a cracking question to end with—very good. No, never. [Laughter.] If he had, he couldn’t possibly be what he is. You will find out a lot more about that. It is a good question, because it leads us rather neatly to Half Blood Prince, although I repeat for the millionth time that Voldemort is not the half blood prince, which is what a lot of people thought. He is definitely, definitely not.

Notice she says no and never - Voldemort doesn't know love full stop - I have a thread on this where I hypothesised that the reason Voldemort doesn't know love was the manner in which he was conceived - under false love and a love potion.

That is why I say if Voldemort is ever made to feel it - and I mean feel love - it will scare the heck out of him - because he was always able to do what he did with a clear conscious - based on the fact he lacked real emotion and positive feelings - what Harry feels from Voldemort when he is happy is in fact Voldemort torturing someone or finding out one of his evil plans has worked ...
The guy is pure malice - and if he was just able to feel love, remorse etc he might just think back one memory and the way he would see it equipped with this emotion he is devout of would really screw him up!

[Piper]

OOPS, I didn't remember that JKR had said that about Voldermort. She says so much that it's hard to keep up with it all, so I was just going on what was in the pensive.

I like the idea that a side effect of love potion could be children that do not feel love a lot. It could explain why she wanted to die maybe, if in fact she did want to die.

[Alz]

I think she wanted to die because she lead a miserable existence - broke free and even under the guise of magic found love and happiness for a short time - but unlike her off-spring she had a conscious and decided to remove the love charm she had with Riddle Senior - and well we know how it played out.
I just feel the conception while under this very powerful potion might have lead to the inherent deficiencies in Riddle Jnr.
What this also suggests to me that is because Voldemort nor Riddle Jnr ever felt love and all the things that come from it - to suddenly be engulfed in it would really make Voldemort go mindless - when I said he just needed to reflect back on one event - perhaps in the past he does do this but with a sense of evil pride and happiness - to now see it under the guise of 'feelings' - it would make him go mindless - all these new emotions he had no idea over, no idea what to do with and no comprehension to even begin to understand them - it would most likely drive him to do something he really feared - kill himself ...

[The Frozen North]

Not for his own personal vendetta, but for the good of all.

In showing us the empathy that Harry feels for Nelville, I think she showed us too, that it can't just be a case of Harry forgiving Voldermort for himself, what Harry can't overlook is the pain and suffering of others. That is why I do not think he could ever extend that friendship olive branch to Voldermort.


I agree completely with these sentiments, I don't think that Harry will continue to pursue a personal vendetta (despite his quite understandable present rage) and to extend freindship to Voldermort is just a bridge too far but I still have a feeling that somehow Harry's personal forgiveness of Voldermorts actions will have a key role to play. Perhaps this kind of "love" is another type of ancient magic that will serve to protect Harry and therefor Voldermort may once more prove to be his own worst enemy and destroy himself in yet another attempt to kill Harry. (I know, very wild speculation, this one!!!)

[Alz]

Harry has to extend a large difference between himself and Voldemort - to have Harry become the same or even act in the same manner will make him just the same - and lets face it - what would be the point of the series!
But also - it would be delicous for Voldemort to discover these emotions he has never felt - mainly because it would be Harry's best chance at getting Voldemort when he is down!
Voldemort feeling love and care, regret and remorse will leave him totally mindless and so buys trying to figure out exactly what he is feeling - it gives Harry his best chance of administrating some kind of lethal action.
I think JKR made Voldemort devoid of these emotions - she re-iterated that Harry's biggest strength is Voldemort's biggest weakness - as such I think it is plausible Voldemort will feel strong, positive emotions before his demise - and IMHO this will actually lead to it ...

[Vestral]

The word 'compassion' in Italian is...

'Pieta'

If you have seen Michelangelo's "Pieta"...
the mother cradling the body of her dead child, who has just sacrificed himself... a redemption from sin... this is true compassion.

On a lesser scale, but one that I think JKR intentionally used... Lily, the mother... sacrificed herself for Harry, the son... in an act of compassion... pieta.

Harry will, in the end, show this same compassion. I have said many times that I don't think Harry will die. I think the phoenix will rise from the ashes.

[Alz]

Kinda OT maybe but thought I would add - we are still to find something shocking about Lily and when you mentioned above the redemption of sin - I just wonder ...
My mind comes back to the 'chapter re-write' which JKR revealed on her site where the original shed a rather different light on Harry's parents and the PS/SS.
It has always made me wonder why she would write that - then edit it away - then reveal it all to us.

I suppose to get back On topic again - JKR said Voldemort has never loved - we saw in HBP a possible reason why he is so devoide of it - and we also saw in OoTP what happens to him when he gets to feel it ...
Voldemort doesnt know what love is - he doesnt know what it feels like - but he knows he doesnt like it when he is shown.
The thought of Harry telling Voldemort he loves him just isnt going to happen - but I wonder if there is a way Harry can force that emotion on him?

[Vestral]

At best, I think Harry can learn to feel compassion for Voldemort in the end.
Harry has now seen the boy, Tom Riddle, and has seen what and where he comes from, and Harry can relate to that, somewhat.
Love is a very complex emotion, and it is many faceted.
Even though Harry might despise who Voldemort has become, and what he has done, he may learn to look deeper than just the snake-like appearance on the outside, and see the very Harry-like appearance of Tom Riddle, and feel one of the many types of love... compassion... for Tom. And because redemption is such a strong theme in these books, it may come into play again at the end. Love may kill the Dark Lord Voldemort, but redeem the man Tom Riddle.

Some of these are a stretch, but think about it...

All of these characters have been somewhat redeemed, or at least given a second chance and a new outlook on life...

Hagrid, Snape, Sirius, Lupin, Madam Maxime, Filch ?, Buckbeak, Dobby, Winky, Trelawney, Draco ?, Barty Crouch, Sr ?, Mundungus ?
I'm sure there are others.

Lastly, think about the word vanquish... Webster says...
1 - to overcome in battle
2 - to defeat in a conflict or contest
3 - to gain mastery over (an emotion, passion, or temptation )

I particularly like the third definition... gain mastery over an emotion ?

[Alz]

So are you suggesting that Voldemort might vanquish himself and become Tom again?
Now that is pretty wild but yet again I like the thinking.
The idea of Harry killing Voldemort to end the prophecy doesnt seem right to me - so I would be a lot happier if Voldemort brings about his own end - afterall he bought about the begginning of the Prophecy.
As Dumbledore said - it was Voldemort's choice to cater to the prophecy - Harry can still walk away - Voldemort can not.
I think getting Voldemort to realise what he so clearly lacks - and even discussed by Dumbledore and Voldemort - he needs to understand the power of love.
Right now he is bereft of it - but nothing saying he cant learn it - how he deals with it will be his own choice - choice once again.

[Vold. E. Mort]

Harry will give Voldemort a love potion, making Voldemort "love" Harry for a brief time, during which, Voldemort's head will explode from the conflict going on.. "Hate Harry, love Harry, Hate, love, hate, love" BOOM! Book ends, Harry and Ginny live happily ever after and make lots of red headed kids with scars on their foreheads..




=D

[Prongs]

Why is it important to know more about Lily's background, but not James'? Did Tom Riddle have a crush on Lily? Could a love potion be a key to Voldemort's demise?

What might make Voldemort Voldemort feel love and care, regret and remorse? A potion? A spell? An Imperius curse?

[Alz]

Harry will give Voldemort a love potion, making Voldemort "love" Harry for a brief time, during which, Voldemort's head will explode from the conflict going on.. "Hate Harry, love Harry, Hate, love, hate, love" BOOM! Book ends, Harry and Ginny live happily ever after and make lots of red headed kids with scars on their foreheads..




=D
I trust that was said tongue in cheek - if not I worry ...
JKR did say getting rid of Voldemort wouldnt be easy and slipping him a love potion has to be one of the worse things I have ever heard!
How gutted would you be reading these books over all these years to have JKR kill Voldemort with a love potion?
There is other ways Voldemort can be forced into feeling positive emotions like love - I am guessing he will be made to feel them through his own actions - because that would mess with his head more.

[apastorinha]

I think that Harry must kill them both. All persons thar Harry cared about ara gonne because that monster.
The love must win and the white magic must be stronger than the dark one.

[Alz]

I think that Harry must kill them both. All persons thar Harry cared about ara gonne because that monster.
The love must win and the white magic must be stronger than the dark one.
Harry certainly has the biggest motivation for revenge but the love aspect has to be more than - which is why I liked your comments.
It is true when viewed as 2 lights that as with all good stories - the light must win over the dark - the love has to win over the need for revenge.
We have discussed this before but Harry's love is something Voldemort doesnt have and so that is much more powerful than the need for revenge he has.

[Vold. E. Mort]

Yes, it was quite tongue in cheek. Can you picture my avatar going back and forth with himself like that? His ears would start smoking lol

Seriously though, I think it will come down to Harry making a choice to save the one he loves (currently Ginny, but I honestly think Cho will be his chosen one by the time it's all said and done) or to save himself. My wife told me though, that JKR has stated that she will NOT kill off any of the trio.

[Alz]

Yes, it was quite tongue in cheek. Can you picture my avatar going back and forth with himself like that? His ears would start smoking lol

Seriously though, I think it will come down to Harry making a choice to save the one he loves (currently Ginny, but I honestly think Cho will be his chosen one by the time it's all said and done) or to save himself. My wife told me though, that JKR has stated that she will NOT kill off any of the trio.
LOL :D

Interesting finising comment - Harry and Cho? :eek:
I have a real, hatred for Cho after OoTP - please dont get me started :p
I think you might be right - but maybe different targets ...
The whole Inferi thing made me feel a little sick - bring the bodies of people you killed back and made me post a thread - I just saw the Potters ...
Imagine the scenario if Voldemort had their bodies from somewhere and decided to present Harry with them - walking about?
Of course this sounds OT I know - but then Harry's love for them could mean Voldemort thinks he can manipulate the odds by catching Harry unfocused - but I suspect the love he has for them could actually be another backfired plan by Voldemort.
Harry does conclude he is going back to Godrics Hollow to visit his parents grave ... (rather convienient it was never mentioned before they were buried there) ... only to find them gone :(

[littlehobit24]

I don't think that voldemort can love because he has never felt love even from birth. His mother was tormented by her father and brothers. She felt her only way out was to fall in love with and idea of a man she thought she wanted. When she was pragnet and alowed the love potion to ware off of Riddle Sr. Her heart was forever empty. She lived only long enough to give birth. Voldemort was placed in a home where mugles didn't him. They just knew he was different. There response was to shun him. Including the persons incharge of the orpahnage. Whe he acted out it was for attention; attention for love. Finnal the lack of love fill his entire being making him the one all feared. Yes Harry did not come from a loveing home, but he did have the love of his parents for his first year; a time in wich all the vital conections that a person needs inorder to form the concepts of love are developed. Voldemort didn't have that. He had nothing from birth. Sometime You see this in todays society. Things like this make you like Harry; Strong and good of heart; or like vodemort; Strong and full of hate and resentment.

[Alz]

I think it goes further - Riddle was biologically devoid of love because of the false love used by his mother on Riddle Snr which lead to his conception ... Riddle jnr really cant love or know what it feels like ...
So, best way to fight him - a man who has seen so much, has so much magic ability and may even be more powerful than Dumbledore?
Show him and make him feel the one thing he has never known!

[littlehobit24]

You may be right, but i think that it will be the envy of love that Harry has that causes his down fall. I think that Voldemort may be angry with Harry because even after he has destoyed Harry's family and caused so much hate Harry is still full of love and affection for his friends. I think that we will find when Voldemort dies Harry will have some form of pitty for him.