If we can't trust Dumbledore, who can we trust!

[Fortescue]

This question will depend greatly on whether Snape is actually good and had prearranged with Dumbledore to kill him with the AK if the need and time came - or if he is evil and murdered Dumbledore in cold blood.

We know how much everyone respected Dumbledore and we constantly saw how his orders were typically followed without question, (except Harry occasionally.) We heard time and time again major players in the story say "If we can't trust Dumbledore, who can we trust!"

This thread came to mind when I thought about how devistated Lupin and the others in the hospital were when Harry told them he watched as Snape murdered Dumbledore.

The questions:

What might their feelings be toward Dumbledore, if in fact, Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him?

What might Harry's reaction be toward his mentors actions if and when he finds out it was all planned in advance?

If Dumbledore did tell Snape to kill him, will this fact change the way all those who respect Dumbledore so much feel about him in the final book?

[Piper]

If Dumbledore did tell Snape to kill him, will this fact change the way all those who respect Dumbledore so much feel about him in the final book?

If Dumbledore was not dying from the potion, or the ring, or a combination, and just took it upon himself to decide that Snape's cover was worth more than his life, I think there is going to be a lot of resentment. A lot of loss of respect. Snape is by no means a likeable character, he would have to really do something great, like destroy the 4 horcruxes and be poised to kill Voldermort himself before Harry gets there, For anyone to see the ends justifying the means.

If Dumbledore was in fact dying anyway, it will not change the way that Harry feels I don't think, because he would understand that he cannot block his mind from Voldermort, due to the scar, and therefore could not have been trusted with the truth.

With this scenerio, I think others will be much less forgiving than Harry however. Members of the order will still feel betrayed that they were not informed. They would understand the need for him to go ahead and die a more peaceful death, but not the need to make them distrust Snape. Except for Hagrid, because I think he understands that he cannot be trusted much with secrets after he spilled the beans about how to get fluffy asleap.

[Alz]

I suppose it is a case if you believe in a greater good ... and indeed a lot of that will come from individuals ...
Dumbledore's one saving grace with everyone is if he acted for the greater good of Harry, Draco, Snape and also anyone else that becomes more resolved and more determined by the news and manner of his death ... I think that was the intent.
I think he once said that we were as strong as we were divided - by taking away division and re-uniting the Order and the people around him - all now motivated by his death- he would redeem as one of the people is bound to make the observation that Dumbledore gave his life for the greater good of them all ...

[Fortescue]

I guess my thoughts on everyone's reaction would depend on if Wizards believe it's a crime to take your own life, which, if Dumbledore had arranged for Snape to kill him, it could be looked upon as suicide. If Dumbledore knew he was going to die anyway because of his hand or the potion, it's could be looked at as assisted suicide.

Either way, I think there would be a mixed reaction from those who supported and respected Dumbledore. After all, it is war. What Dumbledore did could be considered by some as an act of honor. He gave his life to continue the cause, while others would say it was foolish and a waste of a talented comrade. If Dumbledore's death was planned in advance, I think Harry's gentle side, the one that kept him sane and balanced while living with the Dursley's, would be devastated by the whole idea - with the constant dangers that Harry now faces all the time, I think the realization that Dumbledore died willingly will shock him and make him reckless.

Maybe that was a little of Dumbledore's intent, to show Harry that there was no fear in death so Harry would take more chances and find more courage in himself then he might have otherwise had, and so he too would not fear death and simply look upon it as the next great adventure.

[Alz]

I never really got the feeling that Harry was afraid of dying - a few times he has rushed head strong into situations where his mortality would have been in question ...

The point you make is actually a good one - in a time when the order needed all it's troops and what is more - it's leader - then suicide wouldnt have been so honerable.
Dumbledore might have looked at this as being of the bigger picture thou - he showed Harry a few things but what is more is he allowed Harry a new path of agression and reasons to wont to track down Voldemort and all his supporters.

[Fortescue]

The point you make is actually a good one - in a time when the order needed all it's troops and what is more - it's leader - then suicide wouldnt have been so honerable.


And here is where the devistation comes in. The entire Order depended on Dumbledore. He was the one who scheduled their movements, had final say in everything, and seemed to be a comfort to them because of his power and the fact that Voldemort feared him so. My mind goes back to Lupin's reaction to the news - thinking of his position as spy in the werewolf community, probably one of the few stable things Lupin had to hold on to was the knowledge that Dumbledore was there directing and guiding things. I can't see things running as smoothly now that he's gone.

With Dumbledore's death, I wonder if the Order might become unorganized and ineffective as he seemed to be the rock that held it all together and kept it going.

[Alz]

Once again a good point - Dumbledore is the only one he ever feared ...
By being dead now - he has undermined himself and probably the order ...
They had confidence that the person leading them could scare Voldemort - I suppose thier willingness to fight and confidence came from standing side by side with the only one Voldemort ever feared ...

[Fortescue]

If Dumbledore was not dying from the potion, or the ring, or a combination, and just took it upon himself to decide that Snape's cover was worth more than his life, I think there is going to be a lot of resentment. A lot of loss of respect. Snape is by no means a likeable character, he would have to really do something great, like destroy the 4 horcruxes and be poised to kill Voldermort himself before Harry gets there, For anyone to see the ends justifying the means.



To back track a bit: If Dumbledore indeed knew it was his time to die, which I believe he did simply by his remarks to Harry how Harry's blood was more valuable then his own, and Harry's life was more valuable then Dumbledore's; he seemed resigned to the fact that his time was almost up. I believe he knew it was time regardless of how he went, and his last job was to arm Harry with all the knowledge he could before that time came. If he didn't share his knowledge of his pending demise with anyone else, but posssibly Snape, it would seem that there would be many bad feelings among those who trusted him so much.

Another thought is that part of Dumbledore's plan was to get all Harry's friends and the members of the order to give complete solidarity to Harry, who will surely need it in book seven. Maybe Dumbledore figured if he were out of the way, all support would flow to Harry whether out of sympathy at the loss of his mentor or fear of what Harry had to face. Either way, I think any hard feelings toward Dumbledore, if it is found he planned the time and place of his own death, would be forgiven by those who cared for and respected him so.

[Alz]

I suppose not to bring a DiE slant to this - you would have to look at Dumbledore in a slightly different light if all the things that happened at the end of HBP was orchestrated by Dumbledore.
He has played with many people's emotions and thoughts - he made Snape do something he really despised - he left Harry reeling from once again loosing another person he was close to - and to all the Order he almost deserted them. That is before we look at the staff and students he stood over as well.
Given the Training thread we have now - I can see more and more the validity of your questions - but I fear that the answers you will find will come back to one of my fav theories ;)

[kashlie]

to add to the DiE thing, DD trusted Snape because he was keeping a secret protected for Dumbledore. DD is evil, and Snape is his second, keeping an eye on Voldemort, and making him think that DD is the good guy...

[Alz]

I think the main thing here is everyone in the series does assume Dumbledore to be good - and if that is the case and it plays out that way - they will see what he did with Snape as another act of kindness - he was being selfless in defence of Harry and his bigger plan ...

... the worse outcome is that the DiE theory turns out to be true and people are left reeling from the fact that the Order was just an extended mechanism to mutually assist Dumbledore in his ways!

[littlehobit24]

I personaly think that DD allowed snape to kill him, we have not hear the last of him. I agree that there will be some who are disapointed that they were not let in on this, but they will understant that it had to be kept quiet. This also depends on the idea that Dunbledore may have provieded a horcux for himself. Maybe even through snap. This also brings to mind when in book one dumbledore told migonigal that he trusted hagrid with his life. I know he let slip about fluffy, but I think that was because Fantastic beast are his passon. Something like this I think he would keep safe and garded. This saidPerhaps hagrid has or is a horcux. There are just too many possiabilities. I just can't wait until the last book!

[Alz]

OK, Dumbledore and horcrux - said it so many times but that doesn't fly so will stop there ...

Going back to the thread starter and Forte's points - they are very well observed because as much as Dumbledore had to die - it is inevitable that Dumbledore's death will confuse and hurt a lot of people once the truth comes out.
We all knew what Dumbledore meant to so many people - he represented trust, hope, fight against evil - to then learn that this guide and inspiration treated his own life with such light-fingered contempt and left so many people vulnerable - even if it was serving a higher purpose - will still be hard for many to swallow!