View Full Version : The Cave -- and Slughorn?
We’ve all read the Mugglenet/Leaky interview by now, and are aware that JK has confirmed that “the wise old wizard with the beard dies;” however, like many others, I am stuck on the “when and how.” I don’t feel convinced that Dumbledore died on the Tower that night. The end of HBP was written so deliberately it almost seems impossible to accept the death, and yet it’s the same deliberation that has convinced those in the other camp that Dumbledore is undeniably dead.
Anyhow, I’ve familiarized myself with some of the theories making the circuits out there, and none have touched on something I think is possible – not irrefutable, but possible: that Slughorn could have stood in for Dumbledore that night. There were scads of details that led me to draw this fantastic conclusion, long before I could assign any motive or higher meaning to it, and because of this problem, I’m not entirely convinced, but I want to share it with you all in the hopes that you’ll take it seriously with an attitude of “all in good fun,” as that is how I’m approaching it. (I’m also considering the possibility that Slughorn helped Dumbledore fake his death on the Tower, whether Dumbledore was a willing participant or not, but for the sake of this post, I’m including all the bits from the cave that puzzled me.)
In this post I’ll list the things that indicated to me that perhaps Slughorn had Transfigured himself into appearing to be Dumbledore. In another post or as this starter evolves into a conversation, I’ll speculate as to why it might have happened and share some bits I found that could contradict this wild speculation.
All quotes American edition.
1) Stand-out dialogue from Dumbledore:
P. 570, “I am much older, much cleverer, and much less valuable.” And p. 559, “Your blood is worth more than mine.” Value seems to be Slughorn's rating system, not Dumbledore's.
P. 564-5 (the boat): “I do not think you will count, Harry. You are underage and unqualified. Voldemort would never have expected a sixteen year old to reach this place: I think it unlikely that your powers will register compared to mine...Voldemort’s mistake, Harry, Voldemort’s mistake…Age is foolish and forgetful when it underestimates youth.” Dumbledore has told Harry he has done a “grown Wizard’s task,” that he’s exceptional and extraordinary. Now this? Slughorn could say this, regretting that he underestimated Tom Riddle. (Also the repeated phrase.)
“I taught Tom Riddle. I know his style.” (Dumbledore and Slughorn both have extensive experience with TR.)
P. 563: “Oho!” Slughorn catchphrase. We’ve heard Filch say this before too, and Fudge in OoP, and Vernon in OoP. Not Dumbledore.
“That potion…was no health drink…”
“my dear boy” 585, 591
“Oh, weaker resistance, slower reflexes…Old age in short…if you are lucky.” p. 594 (I remember Slughorn's conversation with Dumbledore in ch. 4).
Repeated phrases:
“Voldemort’s mistake, Harry, Voldemort’s mistake…”
“You did very well, very well, Harry…”
“Draco, Draco, you are not a killer.”
“A clever plan, a very clever plan”
“Yes, very neat…very neat…”
“No, no, these are manners.”
2) Dumbledore doesn’t toast (in HBP), Slughorn does.
The only time Slughorn doesn’t toast is when Dumbledore and Harry arrive at his house and he grudgingly serves drinks, resisting Dumbledore’s temptation. Dumbledore asks the students to raise their glasses, "to Cedric Diggory," in GoF; otherwise, the closest thing I could find to a toast from Dumbledore in HBP was this: “’Madam Rosmerta’s finest oak-matured mead,’ said Dumbledore, raising his glass to Harry, who caught hold of his own and sipped.” (p. 48) Dumbledore doesn’t speak. On p. 265: Mrs. Cole poured both of them a “generous measure,” and “she drained her own glass in one gulp.” Again, no dialogue from Dumbledore. Then, p. 570, Dumbledore in cave: “Your good health, Harry.”
Compare to Slughorn, who toasts regularly:
P. 481: “We’ll drink the poor beast’s – well – not health – but we’ll send it off in style, anyway, once it’s buried.”
P. 485, “to Aragog,” then on p. 487, “After an hour or so...Hagrid and Slughorn began making extravagant toasts: to Hogwarts, to Dumbledore, to elf-made wine, and to – ‘Harry Potter,’ bellowed Hagrid.” Slughorn pockets unicorn hair with cries of “To friendship! To generosity! To ten Galleons a hair!”
P. 397: Well, a very happy birthday, Ralph…and may you have many more.”
3) Dumbledore forgets that Harry is standing behind him, dripping wet and freezing, p.558: “Harry, I’m so sorry, I forgot.” He points his wand at Harry, and “Harry’s clothes were as warm and dry as if they had been hanging in front of a blazing fire.” Slughorn warmed himself before the fire in his first scene (p. 69). Would Dumbledore forget Harry? Or is Dumbledore dry, perhaps wearing a Weasleys WW Shield Cloak?
4) Before they leave for the cave, Dumbledore sends Harry to get his invisibility cloak, although he should have expected Harry to already have it. He tells Harry to meet him in the Great Hall in five minutes; this gives Harry time to give the Felix to his friends, but considering Dumbledore initiated this unusual action, what function does it serve him? Is it for Harry's benefit (possibly), or does he need the five minutes himself? Is the Dumbledore Harry meets in the Great Hall actually Slughorn?
Dumbledore’s opening scene with Harry is framed by two impostor checks. First, he admonishes Harry for assuming Dumbledore is indeed himself (raspberry jam). Then we see a person who can appear to be something other than himself (Slughorn chair). Then when Dumbledore leaves the Weasleys’, Arthur insists on impostor checking (Mollywobbles and airplanes). Despite this, Harry never does an impostor check. (side note -- Does Dumbledore do impostor checks of Harry all year long, without Harry being the wiser?)
5) Several scenes indicating both of Slughorn’s hands – compare with scenes of Dumbledore’s hands. It’s been established that Dumbledore’s right hand is his wand hand. I think Slughorn is a lefty (possibly ambidextrous) and this is shown in chapter 4. There are three particular instances before the cave that show both of Dumbledore's hands; there are numerous images of Slughorn that note both his hands.
P. 67: Dumbledore holds out his right hand: “You’re quite right” then holds out his left, showing the ring: “On the other hand…” The ring is on the left hand, by the way, and Harry is sitting next to it – this is when Harry notices the ring. Slughorn’s attention will be drawn to the ring and Harry at once.
P. 356: “Dumbledore’s hands lay on either side of the pensieve.” (This was the only instance Harry found him in this position, two hands on the desk, when arriving for an appointment.)
P. 199: "Dumbledore was having difficulty pulling out the stopper of the crystal bottle: His injured hand seemed stiff and painful." He’s holding it in his left, trying to open it with his right. Instead of opening it with his left hand, "Dumbledore pointed his wand at the bottle and the cork flew out." This suggests to me that he'd rely on his wand before relying on his left hand.
Now Slughorn:
P. 65: “Back to back, they waved their wands in one identical sweeping motion.” This demonstrates that Slughorn is left-handed: if they were both right handed, the motion wouldn’t look identical but reversed. The image perhaps also serves as a metaphor to illuminate Dumbledore and Slughorn as equals – or as near as can be: they can “back each other up” and can do “identical” spellwork.
P. 319: “glass of mead in one hand and an enormous mince pie in the other.”
P. 369: sitting w/ feet on pouf, glass in one hand, candied pineapple in the other.
P. 490: Slughorn put his hand in his pocket and pulled out his wand. He put his other hand inside his cloak and took out a small, empty bottle.
In the cave, Dumbledore uses his hands differently than he has in the rest of the book, and even uses his left hand as his wand-hand. The sensitivity, in particular, he seems to have in that hand seems contradictory to how we’ve seen it up until now.
Pp. 557-8: Still holding his wand aloft, it must be with his left hand: he “…approached the wall of the cave and caressed it with his blackened fingertips…touching as much of the rough rock as he could…running his fingers backward and forward…finally he stopped, his hand pressed flat against the wall.”
P. 558-9: Dumbledore takes knife from robes with left hand, cuts right arm with left hand. He heals the cut using his left as his wand hand.
P. 562-3: They must be walking around the lake on the right side, because “Dumbledore’s uninjured hand closed tightly around [Harry’s] upper arm, pulling him back.” Then, “This time he was running his hand, not over the rocky wall, but through the thin air, as though expecting to find and grip something invisible…keeping his hand clenched in midair, Dumbledore raised his wand with the other and tapped his fist with the point.” He seems to be using his right hand to sense the magic, again, and his left hand for his wand.
P. 567-8: Again, he seems to be trying to touch the potion in the basin with his right and using his wand with his left. (Does he conjure the goblet with his right and catch it with his left or vice-versa?)
6) The knife Dumbledore uses to cut his arm is a Potions knife. (pp.559, 190)
7) Distinctive descriptors:
In the cave, Dumbledore’s “blue eyes turned green in the reflection of the basin.” (p. 570) Slughorn’s eyes are “gooseberry,” which is light green. (p. 67: “His pale gooseberry eyes had found Dumbledore’s injured hand.”)
P. 571: “Dumbledore panted and then spoke in a voice Harry did not recognize, for he had never heard Dumbledore frightened like this…Harry stared into the whitened face he knew so well…”
P. 580: Dumbledore’s face, “paler and damper than ever” Yes, I know he drank the horrible potion; but the language is identical to descriptions of Slughorn when he gets scared or nervous.
P. 490: “Slughorn turned paler than ever; his shiny forehead gleamed with sweat.”
P. 627: “…Slughorn, who looked the most shaken, pale and sweating.” (This one particularly interests me, because it could be that he was out there being Dumbledore or had been helping him at the Tower.)
8) If there is a gun on the mantelpiece in Act I, we’d better see it fired by the end of the play. We know Slughorn has a little vial of dragon blood from his opening scene, and although it was dusty, he was sure he’d find a use for it. It’s quite possible if he were disguised as Dumbledore, he would be able to put a bit on his mouth to look dead. (This is a useful tidbit whether or not Slughorn impersonated Dumbledore.)
9) It’s Dumbledore’s goblet; why does it keep emptying when Harry fills it (Aguamenti)? My suspicion is he needs Harry to turn his back to get water for some reason.
10) Compare how Ron reacts to being poisoned with how Dumbledore reacts to the potion in the cave.
P. 398: Ron “crumpled, his extremities jerking uncontrollably. Foam was dribbling from his mouth, and his eyes were bulging from their sockets…Ron twitched and choked: His skin was turning blue…the sound of Ron’s gargling breath filled the room.” (This seems to be poison, and it seems the potion Dumbledore drank isn’t.)
Harry gave Ron the bezoar, and “Ron gave a great shudder, a rattling gasp, and his body became limp and still.”
pp. 573-4: after finishing all the potion, Dumbledore, “with a great rattling gasp, rolled over onto his face.” Then Harry “heaved him over onto his back; Dumbledore’s glasses were askew, his mouth agape, his eyes closed.” Ron’s reaction to the bezoar is almost identical to Dumbledore’s reaction upon drinking the last goblet of potion. Why?
11) “You are with me,” compared with, “I am with you.” Is this a cuddly remembrance moment or is it true (ie, if it is Slughorn, he does feel safe knowing he’s with Harry, the Chosen One)?
Even if this turns out to be a dead end, I think the process of speculation can be fruitful. What do you folks think?
gumshoe
That was totally awesome!!!
I have to say - one of the best Specs I have ever read!!!
You know what - I have read it through twice and after the intial read I was impressed - second one I am totally seeing it!
Can I pick up on a few things - you did mention them but I like them a lot ..
The whole Oho thing - this sticks in my mind because it was annoying the hell out of me - I spend a lot of time listening to the Audio books and I find it just grates on me :o
The repetition of a point - another thing that really annoyed me about Slughorn ...
'Good to see you, good to see you ....'
'Outstanding Wizard, outstanding ...'
'So modest, so modest ...'
'Well, off you go, off you go!'
That annoyed me no end about Slughorn - and once again I also remember Dumbledore doing that!!!
I mean I could keep going here shaking my head in agreement ... :D
I would like to add one thing that puzzled me ... and I can se it fitting right in if you are right ...
'It's all my fault, all my fault'
'Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and i'll never, never again..'
'Don't hurt them, don't hurt then, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead ...'
'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything ...'
Dumbledore - HBP Pg536
Slughorn re-calling that indeed he was the one to tell Riddle about the Horcruxes ... Lily being a very fav student ... a lot to be sorry for :eek:
Awesome Gumshoe - really!
Now that is truly fantastic! i too was nodding my head in agreement!
but (there is always a but) how do we explain Dumbldore letting this happen?
Holy Cow, you guys... I'm totally amazed. I've been snubbed, ignored, scoffed...
Thanks to you both, Blaise and Kashlie, I really am grateful. Even if the theory is wrong, it's so nice you appreciate it.
So, I of course thought about the cave speech and what it could mean in terms of Slughorn, and of course thought of Lily. (At some point, I'll drag out my wildest spec of all.)
Now, Kashlie, the part about Dumbledore letting it happen, that really did get me. When I first conceived this, I only saw the indicators, but couldn't get a handle on the reasons WHY it could be so.
I started with wondering why Dumbledore would want to fake his death, and I think all of us are familiar with many of the reasons, some of which are:
to get the Ministry off his tail so he can continue his search for Horcruxes;
to allow Harry to operate alone, because if Harry knows he can rely on Dumbledore, he won't function at his personal best;
to lure Voldemort out of hiding (if LV believed Dumbledore was truly gone, he'd likely come back to Hogwarts to rummage around and find what he was looking for);
to force Snape's hand.
And ultimately, all of this would allow him to make the best use of his time left on earth, because I think most readers got the impression that Dumbledore didn't believe he had much time to live, straight from the beginning of the book.
However, even if Dumbledore was sticking to his story that Snape was trustworthy, that he had everything under control, etc, I think an old friend like Slughorn, who isn't afraid to question his judgment (as we see in chapter 4) would call him on it. (I imagine Slughorn and Dumbledore having a heated discussion over Christmas, as we see the difference in Dumbledore after break and his reference back to Slughorn's Christmas party.) In that situation, Slughorn would likely offer to help Dumbledore and tell Dumbledore that he doesn't trust Snape. If you look at the first scene between Harry and Dumbledore after Christmas you can see why I might think this could be.
So if Slughorn knew that Dumbledore was taking Harry on this Horcrux quest (perhaps because he himself helped Dumbledore nail down where it was and what was involved?!), he might offer to Dumbledore to let him stand in for him, to convince Harry (as Harry MUST be convinced, above and beyond anyone else) that Dumbledore was himself and was to die that night.
And also as a way of making up for not connecting the dots earlier about Riddle and Voldemort and the Horcruxes (for I believe he's only just realized it within the past year).
And also as a way of practically helping Harry, Lily's son.
I can envision Dumbledore being himself in the cave, if he wouldn't go along with doing something so risky, and also because there are a few moments that seem SO Dumbledore that I question why I've thought of all this in the first place! In that instance, I can still see Slughorn in some invisible way protecting Dumbledore that night on the tower, removing him and his wand to safety (and perhaps to Fawkes as well), leaving a fake body and the locket at the base of the tower, and rushing back upstairs to "ejaculate" the most unbelievable of utterances: "Snape! I taught him! I thought I knew him!"
It all comes down to Slughorn's motivation. And I believe that he remembers the drunken night at Hagrid's hut; as I posted in another thread (was it "Felix Felicis?"), Harry's Felix wore off right around the time he was refilling the bottles. That would mean that the moment that Harry believed the Felix was reassuring him that Slughorn would remember nothing the next morning -- was flawed. Slughorn remembering that night, and Slughorn's particular motivation to protect Harry, would be incredibly important.
I think it's even possible that Slughorn doesn't trust Dumbledore to protect Harry. He knows Dumbledore's priority would be to rid the world of Voldemort, and any casualties would be a necessary evil. And I think that the moment that he took in Harry and the ring in the same glance (in chapter 4), he surmised, correctly or not, that Dumbledore thought Harry might be a Horcrux, and that Dumbledore was trying to determine if this was so. In that instance, we know that Dumbledore would see Harry as expendable, no matter how much it pained him, as he said in OoP that he realized his mistake in loving Harry more than the "faceless, nameless people and creatures" whom Voldemort would destroy. Dumbledore wouldn't make that mistake again.
The moment that convinces me that Slughorn believes that Dumbledore thinks Harry might be a Horcrux is at the end of "After the Burial," where Slughorn says to Harry (paraphrased) "You want me to help you, in fact, to destroy --" We could fill in the blank with "yourself."
I'll take a breather now. So glad to be on a board where someone wants to play!
gumshoe
Snuffles
02-09-2005, 22:00
Oh wow!!!! :eek:
This is like, one of the best specs I've ever read, all reasonable and logical!!! :D
I've been reading this thread over and over, and I'm nodding to myself as I'm reading this.
This so might be IT, you know!!!!!
that thing about the potion-knife was really good! ;)
A couple of questions that I can't resist to ask, though: :p
* What made Dumbledore do something like that? Slughorn's an old friend; he wouldn't want him to be in danger!!
* What about all the scenes with Slughorn after Dumbeldore was dead? The Heads of the Houses met in Dumbledore's office, including Slughorn, and it was there that Slughorn was "pale and gleaming with sweat." Then at Dumbledore's funeral, Slughorn is leading the Slytherins.
* The "phoneix" at the funeral... that only seems to be fitting for Dumbledore.
Great thoughts!!!
Snuffles, really good questions. I answered some of it in my verbose second post, but you touch on something I didn't put in words that I should have (yikes, more gumshoe words? They just keep coming...)
Main one: if we assume for the sake of argument that Slughorn took Dumbledore's place in the cave/tower scene, we can safely conclude that nobody died on the tower that night. The AK would be theatrics, the body would be a Transfigured object, like Barty Crouch Jr Transfigured his father's body into a bone.
Oh, and by the way, I have backed myself up with the interviews -- I just thought 2000 words for a thread-starter was enough and I'd get to that later. JK said to Katie Couric that she'd never said a major character would die, and in Mugglenet/Leaky she used only present tense when speaking of Dumbledore. And then there's that bit about the "when and how."
I think it entirely possible that nobody died, but Dumbledore is dying, and Slughorn could have bought Dumbledore some more time, offstage. Harry wouldn't find out until Dumbledore was really dying, and he could find out what happened to Dumbledore's hand!
Dumbledore wouldn't want Slughorn to be in danger -- I'll argue that one. First, I think it would be a likelier argument that Slughorn wouldn't want himself in danger, based on what we've seen of Slughorn. We all know Dumbledore asks an awful lot of the people he trusts and who trust him. He's put Harry in mortal peril for years. He sent Snape back to Voldemort, when both of them knew Snape might get killed for not returning immediately.
Remember how reluctant Slughorn was to return to Hogwarts? I believe it was because he knew that Dumbledore didn't want him simply as Potionsmaster. If that was all there was to it, we would think, wouldn't we, that he'd leap at the chance of protection? He knows Dumbledore, better than anyone in the series to date, perhaps.
Fawkes was conspicuously absent in the cave/tower scene. The song, I think, could be Fawkes healing Dumbledore offstage, or perhaps Fawkes wanting to return to Hogwarts to comfort everyone. We can draw a parallel to Harry's being frozen under the cloak, watching and unable to do anything.
I know, that darned potions knife. My eyes leapt from their sockets.
Great questions, Snuffles, and thanks for really nice response.
gumshoe
Snuffles
03-09-2005, 04:52
:D
I was re-reading the end of HBP just right now. What really caught my eye was that on the Tower, when there were only Harry (under the Invisiblity Cloak), Dumbledore, and Malfoy, Dumbledore called Voldemort by his name, which made Malfoy flinch.
I was wondering; would Slughorn be brave enough to call Lord Voldemort by his name? Even under the stress that he was disguising as Dumbledore, would he? :rolleyes: Now, that's just my thinking here. He might just as well have.
we assume for the sake of argument that Slughorn took Dumbledore's place in the cave/tower scene, we can safely conclude that nobody died on the tower that night I'm not quite sure I follow you. IF Slughorn had indeed been disguising himself as Dumbledore, it must have been Slughorn who got hit by AK and killed, isn't it? Or am I missing something??
And one more thing. The only way I know a person can changer him/herself into another person is by Polyjuice Potion. We know from Barty Crouch Jr and his mothers' experience that the person needs to be taking the potion constantly. Barty Crouch Jr's mother did, which is why noone ever noticed anything. Was it how it worked with Slughorn, too, i wonder, if it indeed was Slughorn?
I know. I know. I'm being picky. But seeing how this theory is so awesome, I have to double-check it makes sense!
Oh, no, Snuffles, please do be picky -- I welcome it, especially when you offer to pick with such implied helpfulness! This darned idea has been rattling around in my brain all alone for so long, with no feedback. And I want to be able to marry it or bury it, depending on the outcome of discussion.
That said, I did consider the things you address, and I may have plausible explanations.
Dumbledore said Voldemort's name: this could either blow the theory out of the water (there are one or two more, such as Dumbledore saying "forgive me" and "so crude"), OR Slughorn isn't as cowardly as he's led us to believe, OR Slughorn used Felix to enhance his performance that evening. (Didn't it seem like Dumbledore in the cave could be compared to Harry in "After the Burial"?)
The AK: Assuming it was an AK and not a nonverbal "eat slugs, Dumbledore" (can't take credit for it -- someone on Leaky thought it up!) -- I noticed that Dumbledore's hand is on his chest, and I also remember the twins saying they were going into a line of Shield Cloaks.
Furthermore, this takes me farther out than maybe you were asking me to go, BUT: I saw a connection between Slughorn and one of the magicians of the golden age of magic, a man named Horace Goldin, whose patter-less, fast-pace style was trendsetting for the time. Goldin performed, among other things, a trick wherein he caught with a plate a bullet shot at his chest.
If anyone thinks the connection is far-fetched, I encourage you to find him online, and I will post a link to his autobiography for fun if it's requested/allowed. I must add that Goldin looked and acted a lot like Slughorn, he admired the great Albini but wasn't afraid to challenge him, and -- he had an act called the Tiger God, and his pet tiger was LILY.
So if it was him and not Dumbledore, the AK (which wouldn't blast anyone off the top of a tower anyway) was blocked, or it was another spell that was blocked; there was a levitating spell that got him down safely (like Harry in the Quidditch match); there was a fake body and locket left at the scene.
As for impersonation. Barty Jr did it with Polyjuice, and it could be possible for Slughorn to use that to be Dumbledore, as he had a cauldronful in his Potions classroom. But might I suggest that a man who can turn himself into an armchair and another man who used to be the Transfiguration professor may have some other tricks up their sleeves? I can only speculate.
I am crazy about that Slughorn/Goldin connection, especially when I saw the number of times JK pointed out his "golden buttons" and had us watching his hands. What do you guys think?!
gumshoe
Actually that was another point that never sat right which you bought up.
AK whenever we have seen it always seemed passive - it hits the target and they fall dead - literally straight away. Dumbledore was slipping down the walls of the tower - yet when he was hit with the curse - he was blasted out of the tower.
That just seems wrong on many levels.
People can point towards the destroyed Potters house - but that AK wasnt right anyways - as well all know it didnt execute in the right manner.
I would like to add here - you arent suppose to be able to stop AK - it has been said over and over again - the only person to contradict that was Harry.
If that was a proper AK curse - then I think it would have met and dispatched the person - I dont think JKR is going to contradict herself so late on.
Yes, Blaise, I've also doubted that it was a proper AK. If it wasn't, my fun idea about Goldin and deflecting bullets could have some merit! However, it does bring up other questions that I'll pose to you all:
If it's not proper, is Snape then not trying to kill Dumbledore, is he in on the faked death? What are the ramifications of that?
If that is the case, what is the meaning of the "don't call me coward" speech? Maybe he is still smarting from the pain Voldemort inflicted on him offstage after the graveyard scene? (It's quite possible that Snape was the "coward" and Karkaroff was the "one who has left me forever.") Maybe he's braver than anyone but Dumbledore knows, for carrying on this charade, getting himself in deeper than he could have imagined?
What if Snape is not in on it? He seems to really be sizing things up when he steps out onto the tower. Can we compare this to the moment he stepped into Umbridge's office and found the kids tied up? Is Snape just going with what Dumbledore is Legilimensing (ha!) to him?
I didn't get the impression that Snape was in on it; in fact, I suspected that one motive for faking the death at all would be to force his hand. How could Snape casting a different spell work into this theory -- or is the gust of wind that blows down my house of cards?
And then, ugh, the Unbreakable Vow. I've yet to read all the threads on the board, and I'm sure it's been discussed, but do we think it possible that Snape could have NOT killed Dumbledore at that moment and remained alive?
gumshoe
Sirius Potter Fan
03-09-2005, 16:35
And then, ugh, the Unbreakable Vow. I've yet to read all the threads on the board, and I'm sure it's been discussed, but do we think it possible that Snape could have NOT killed Dumbledore at that moment and remained alive?
This is something that I have been meaning to bring up in a new thread for a while now, but it is well suited for discussion here.
First, great ideas Gumshoe! a little spooky, but great!
NOW, I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. . . are we ever told exactly what Draco's job is? We assume what it is,(to kill Dumbledore) but it is never mentioned specificaly. And, if that was it, I have never understood why he would need to get all the DE's into the castle, which is what he spent so much time and work doing. So, it is hard to tell if Snape was bound to kill Dumbledore, or to do something else. Now, if indeed he was bound to do something else (which possibly Draco had succeded in doing) and therefore did not need to actualy kill Dumbledore to preserve his own life.
The Frozen North
03-09-2005, 23:52
. . . are we ever told exactly what Draco's job is?
One theory says that his task is to repair the vanishing cabinet.
Well, both of you have my deepest gratitude. I have started to get hung up on the Vow, but you both have excellent points, allowing me wiggle room with the Vow.
The task was never named, was it? It could have been to fix the cabinet to allow the DE's entry. Would the intended outcome of that be Dumbledore's death and Voldemort's resultant freedom to search the school for a missing Horcrux?
Ha -- what if Draco's task was to kill Snape, and he plays that little game with Narcissa and Bellatrix, totally blowing it? I'm chuckling just thinking of it.
Or even something else?... Oh, the possibilities. I do get the impression that Draco didn't send the mead or the necklace, but I should reread some before making a stink about it.
But what about the DE's saying "Draco's got to do it" -- can that be explained by an order separate from what Snape was bound to help Draco do?
Am I correct in inferring that you both doubt that Snape knew what he was Vowing to?
Thanks for chiming in!
gumshoe
Well - in defence of the point that Draco's task was to kill Dumbledore - re-read Spinner's End.
I get the distinct feeling from what Narcissa and Bellatrix were saying that it was Draco's charge to kill Voldemort - of course culminating in what we saw in the Tower.
It was never expected that Draco would be able to do it - Voldemort was thinking that Draco would die in the attempt - the same as Narcissa.
I think the vow is another indicator of the task - and to be honest Narcissa did the job.
Even when Snape cornered Draco after Slughorn's party you could see the desperation in Snape - he knew if Draco failed it would cost him his life as well.
The Frozen North
05-09-2005, 00:16
Yes I do think that Snape knew what Draco's task was as Voldermort would have wanted someone to report back to him what was happening, it's not that easy for him to get spies inside Hogwarts!!! However, despite it being obvious that Draco was required to kill DD, "Draco's got to do it"we don't know when he was given that particular task and indeed the task that Snape made the UV to help complete may have been something completely different, such as repairing the cabinet.
So, guys, how do we steer this back around to the Slughorn idea? Remember that Snape's Vow came up in the context of Dumbledore perhaps being impersonated by Slughorn. Snape's role is critical to making sense of this possibility, is critical to determining if it could have happened or not. (Has any conclusion been reached in this regard?)
However, if Slughorn stood in for Dumbledore that night, I think the implications to those two characters and to the entire storyline are much more worthy fodder for discussion. What would motivate Slughorn to do this and what would motivate Dumbledore to do it (if he did -- or if he didn't, how would he respond to Slughorn snatching him from death)?
If it was possible for Slughorn to take Dumbledore's place that night, we must conclude that he isn't a flat character (pompous, cowardly, greedy) brought into the book for a few flimsy deus ex machina purposes (the memory and someone to recall Lily and someone to take over Slytherin House). That's what I had in mind when I started the thread.
gumshoe
You know I am not convinced that Slughorn lived that night.
I think it is possible he realised how much he had caused in an indirect way - was tired of running away and took the chance to repay Harry for his part in his parents death.
I think he really liked Lily a lot - and the fact that what he told Riddle had caused the chain reactions that saw Lily killed - he could never live a happy life ...
Another think I heard today while listening to the book that might be another indicator of Slughorn impersonatiing Dumbledore - when Harry and Dumbledore jumped into the water - Harry observed that Dumbledore did it with 'sudden agility if a much younger man'.
He also performed a perfect breaststroke - even though his hand was suppose to almost be dead ... ummm :)
Whether it will turn out to be that Dumbledore and Slughorn changed positions or not in the end, I think it is definately as possible as anything else. Nice work here tying it all together!
I have a couple of things to add to boost this theory of yours, the first one is that Slughorn said at the Christmas Party I believe, when talking to Snape about how great in Potions Harry was that harry made Draught of the Living Death" for him in the first lesson. When he won the Feilx. This is the second time in the series we have seen this potion mentioned only that I know of. The first mention was in the first book, in Harry's first potion lesson, Snape said:
"For your information, Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as draught of the living death"
So we know that Slughorn had a supply of this very powerful sleeping potion, we can assume it causes a death like state.
The second thing that kept bugging me was the very powerful venom that Slughorn collected from Argog the giant spider. I kept expecting that venom to come in real handy somewhere, and it never did that we were told about.
One more thing is that Slughorn was not mentioned during any of the fighting that night, he was not mentioned until he came in and told Professor McGonnagal that the Ministry had been contacted.
That is about all I can think of, I have loaned my book out and will look more when I get it back
Really nice work
So does Slughorn appear at all after Dumbledore's death? If he does, then I would love to say he and DD planned it (and that Snape really is evil :) )...See, Slughorn becomes Dumbledore and DD becomes Slughorn...
But Dumbledore could have been away still when Harry was called to his office? Slughorn may have called him there and set out with Harry, unbeknownst to Dumbledore.
Dumbledore could have known about it though, and was out of the way for the plan to work.
There are so many variations to this theory, all of which actually could work!
Blaise, I can see how you might think that if they switched, that Slughorn took the AK. I guess it's why I was so interested in Frozen North's AK thread.
Slughorn's feelings for Lily are sufficient motivators to overcome all the flatness we assume about him. It just seems so possible that he wants to protect Harry. (I've got more thoughts on this but wonder if it should be a separate thread or part of this one, as an exploration of possible motive. Blaise, what do you think?)
I think it's just as simple for Slughorn to not die, as an expert at such things, and I see him as someone who wants to avoid dying, who wouldn't make an automatic choice to put himself in the line of fire. So when I speculate that he stood in for Dumbledore that night, I imagine that he did so, believing he was well-protected, with those pockets of his loaded with tricks. And totally 100% with Harry as his main priority (which Dumbledore wouldn't do.)
Did anyone see earlier in the thread what I said about Horace Goldin, btw?
And as for the "much younger man" bit -- I didn't include it in my first post because I thought everyone would think I was reaching too far! There were a couple of others -- like the Accio (why doesn't Dumbledore do it the three opportunities he has?) and the Apparating is different (although that could be attributed to Harry knowing how to do it now).
Piper, thanks for the kind words. And I really like how you bring in the Draught of Living Death. I definitely subscribe to the "gun on the mantel in act I, must use it before the final curtain" theory (for the Draught and Aragog's venom). Remember how I suggested that cave-Dumbledore seemed to need Harry to turn his back (because his own goblet kept emptying) -- it would be a perfect time to use Draught of Living Death. If it's slow-acting, that is. But Dumbledore did say something in Hogsmeade about how he could still stand -- I'll have to look it up. Do you have any other ideas about how it could have been used?
Kashlie, you just hit upon something REALLY interesting. See, I've been trying to figure out how a switch could have happened without Dumbledore's permission, and it's very plausible if Dumbledore was still away. I do think that if the switch happened with Dumbledore's consent, he'd either be sick or he'd be watching what was happening at Hogwarts when everyone believed he was gone! And so he'd be poised to do some hands-on invisible protecting. But I've a lot of reason to suspect he'd do it without Dumbledore's consent, and couldn't figure out how that could have happened. So thanks!
As far as the office, Kashlie and Piper you both bring this up, I think it was really Slughorn who showed up in the office after the tower scene, but I think there's a lot of room to interpret him looking worse off than anyone to his having just worked his stubby fingers to the bone pulling off a stunning performance; likewise, he seems pretty ruffled when Harry wants to keep the students there for the funeral -- partly because that means he's got more work to do managing the charade, perhaps? And partly because he knows that Voldemort will likely descend on Hogwarts soon after hearing of Dumbledore's death?
This board is such a pleasure. Smart conversation about HP with a sense of humor and a devious twist. Thank you all.
gumshoe
The apparating (or operating as my daughter calls it :p ) has been getting to me.
Dumbledore appears to not know that Harry is under age and unable to apparate legally. I mean, surely Dumbledore of all people would remember that Harry wouldn't be 17 until the following July?
Slughorn, on the other hand, probably wouldn't know the finer details of Harry's life. But even if he did, he probably didn't care when Harry's birthday was, just as long as he was connected to the most famous boy wizard...
Another possible for clue hunting - the way Slughorn was reacting after Dumbledore had died in the Headmaster office ...
He was described as looking shaken, pale and sweating after he heard Snape had done the deed ... a little later when he talked again it was noted he was dabbing his sweating brow.
I also posted a thread where in the cave Dumbledore talked about Voldemort's fears - and he said that Voldemort was afraid of the dark.
At the time that didnt sit right as we know that in fact Voldemort is scared of dying - would it be that Slughorn/Dumbledore wasnt as versed as proper Dumbledore?
Blaise/Alz
I really think the way Slughorn was up in the office lends weight to the Slughorn in the cave idea. And I think Slughorn was better qualified to stand in for Dumbledore than anybody -- and would still likely not get it entirely right (compare to the chapter 4 scene).
I've spent my time away from MP/TFH working with some others on another board trying to understand why Slughorn would do this, why Dumbledore would fake his death, and what is the purpose of the cave scene in relation to these proposals. One interesting idea that has come up was that it was a training mission, not a real Horcrux hunt at all. (And forgive me if I'm not up to speed on what's been discussed in other threads -- my working memory of TFH is gone with the time away.) It lends credence to Dumbledore's possible motivation, especially in light of the fact that Harry has just told him that Malfoy is poised to strike (and so Dumbledore might not wish to leave the school after all).
As I've said on this board elsewhere (Felix Felicis thread maybe?), it seems clear from the text that the Felix wore off long before Harry confronted Slughorn about the memory. That would indicate to me that Slughorn wouldn't give it to Dumbledore (thinking it wouldn't help, perhaps, as he said, or maybe wishing to protect Harry, if he thought that Dumbledore believed Harry to be a Horcrux) but he DID give it to Harry, and only after Harry told him he was indeed the Chosen One. Slughorn wasn't going on the assumption, then, that Harry was the CO and he wasn't collecting him as a jewel for his famous-people collection. He wanted to be close to Harry for Harry, and for Lily.
Furthermore, if you look at the scene and see where Harry felt safe, "the Felix was telling him that Slughorn would remember none of this in the morning," you know that since the Felix is gone, Slughorn will probably remember, and will be motivated to "be brave like [Harry's] mother" and to rise to the challenges of assisting Dumbledore and Harry, rather than cowering in the shape of an armchair.
Just some thoughts to get the ball rolling again. I do think it's important to discern what a motive would be and to cover other bases (like the Snape issue) when dealing with this theory, and I look forward to feedback from all you brainy-types.
gumshoe
Training mission is an interesting idea!
It did seem rather elaborate for just that - I mean at one point Harry was being dragged away by the inferi.
I think your right about the best qualified - there is no doubts that Dumbledore and Slughorn shared a history and Dumbledore was fond of Slughorn enough to want him back on staff.
With regards to Slughorn being called upon as an act of duty and obligation to the memory of Lily - once again that would be consistant.
I suppose what I dislike the most is that if this was faked just enought to train Harry - then why go through the final part that saw Dumbledore being apparently killed?
That point has been raised, too, and I'll bring it up on the other board with the poster who's pretty keyed up about the training mission idea. He's also the one person who really digs the Slughorn switch theory.
Basically, however, I'm not sure if that was how it was supposed to go (if we're assuming it was Slughorn and a training mission) -- but I do feel like one way or another, if Dumbledore faked his death, Harry would have to be absolutely convinced of it.
I think it would have something to do with Dumbledore not being able to take Harry, because of what Harry says that indicates to Dumbledore that Malfoy is poised to strike, so the idea would be that it was a last-minute switch, and Slughorn-as-Dumbledore would be making the decision to fake it? (I've been taken on so many flights of fancy on this other thread that I've ceased to be able to see only my own theroy.) I'll write back soon when I get more concrete about it.
And since training mission never entered my mind, initially, that also contributes to my being vague about it now!
gumshoe
My pal on the other board sees it as Dumbledore instructing Slughorn to take Harry in his place, that it will allow Harry to complete this part of his training; he knows he's under pressure because Harry tells him Malfoy is ready to strike. Part of the instructions would also include being in place ready to fake-die for the benefit of the Wizarding World being convinced of his death, with witnesses. I'm not sure what he thinks Snape's role is in it.
I never foresaw a training mission scenario, but it has its merits. I think there's room for it to be so.
What makes me uneasy is I feel we're starting to tiptoe closer to speculation without canon backup, whereas when I first picked up on the Slughorn oddities, I was looking at the text for the evidence.
Another wrinkle is that I always got the impression that Snape was not in the loop on Dumbledore's plans, whatever they may have been, but I'm wondering if the training mission scenario assumes his participation or not.
gumshoe
I am pretty new to this site and I have been reading many of the threads but this one is the most fascinating. I really think that the theory that Slughorn stands in for Dumbledore in the cave/tower is brilliant. I have a few more supporting quotes to add.
First, we know from Harry discovering that Crabbe and Goyle are impersonating a variety of students to be Malfoy's lookouts that "there is a great vat of [polyjuice potion] down in the dungeon" (HBP, 454) . Why else would Slughorn have produced such a great quantity of the stuff if not for an important reason like the one that Gumshoe has suggested?
Secondly, it has bothered me that when we are introduced to Slughorn, his character seems destined for greater things than merely teaching. There seems to be much more to Slughorn than we are made aware of, as evidenced by the exchange bewtween DD and Slughorn at the latter's residence in Chapter four. "What would the Death Eaters want with a poor broken-down old buffer like me?" demanded Slughorn. "I imagine that they would want you to turn your considerable talents to coercion, torture and murder," said Dumbledore. "Are you really telling me they haven't come recruiting yet?" (HBP, 68) But, we never really find out what those considerable talents are (besides his ability to transform himself and his home into a scene of chaos in 3 minutes flat)--at least not overtly. In fact, not only is he not teaching DADA, he is teaching Potions as Harry is shocked to discover. There is obviously more to this guy than what is revealed to us.
Finally, Harry suggests that Slughorn may be very in the fight against Voldemort on page 401: "Dumbledore reckons that Voldemort wanted Slughorn on his side...Slughorn was in hiding for a year before he came to Hogwarts...And maybe Voldemort wants him out of the way, maybe he thinks he could be valuable to Dumbledore."
Anyway...these were things that stuck out in my head and seemed to support the Slughorn/Cave theory.
Hey, Yogini, welcome and thanks a lot for the nice feedback. I truly appreciate it.
To your points:
The Polyjuice: I agree that it lends weight, if we assume that Slughorn is using it. There are two problems, only minor. One is that it takes about a month to brew, and Slughorn was on the train. Did he go to Hogwarts before the start of the term, then ride the train to meet with students? The other is of course finding a way of tracking the time it takes for the cave/tower scene to transpire. If it's over an hour, I can find only one place where Slughorn-Dumbledore would have "refreshed" his dose, and that's when his goblet is emptying of the water Harry is filling with the Aguamenti spell. That just bugged me so much -- his own goblet emptying of Harry's water -- I wondered if he needed Harry to turn his back for some reason. If he's using Polyjuice to maintain his image, that would be the moment he refills.
Of course there's also the possibility that Slughorn can Transfigure without it, but that leaves the cauldron of Polyjuice sitting virtually unused for the whole book.
Slughorn's character: Actually, it was two minutes; he didn't hear his intruder charm go off because he was in the bath! That was a riot. Anyhow, you are speaking my language about him when you note that the switch provides a meatier character. If you read the book straight, Slughorn is a flat character serving little function in the plot -- his purpose is to give more background on Lily when mainly we've heard of James for five books; he has a memory regarding the number of Horcruxes Voldemort likely made; and he's on hand to be the Slytherin Head of House next book. If Slughorn is only a flat character without more motivation and more active a role, then why not serve these functions with an existing character? There are ways she could have done so, and I think she'd be inclined to -- her comments about the Weasley cousin that never made print come to mind, that the information could be transmitted in other, cleaner ways. It's been so long since my first post, but did I mention any of my ideas about Slughorn's possible motivation? I know I talked about the Felix episode just the other day.
Your third point about Slughorn being valuable to Slughorn -- yes, this ties back very neatly with the "considerable talents" we never hear of. In my opinion, I think Slughorn only requires the proper motivation to apply those, and I think Harry would suffice.
Yogini (et al), tell me what you think about the Felix episode. It seems clear to me that Slughorn didn't want to give Harry the memory at first, because "it would serve no purpose," and because he thought that Dumbledore had "got to" Harry. He seems afraid that Dumbledore is using Harry to serve his own ends. Then when Harry tells him he is indeed the Chosen One, he has a moment of realization. First, I think it's noteworthy that Slughorn never thought he was the CO in the first place, and wasn't ever "collecting" Harry as it were; also I think he realizes that Dumbledore is trying to help Harry. This, combined with Harry invoking Lily's name and asking him to be brave and noble, is what convinces him to give Harry the memory. I don't think it was the Felix, as I've said in the other thread where I did the math, and I don't think that Harry and Lily had special Green Eye Hypno Power to get people to do their bidding. I think it was Slughorn's turning point and evolution as a character, and I'm nearly convinced we've seen him do something active toward the downfall of Voldemort.
Of course, I had pages and pages of hidden anagrammed messages that I found in "Droobles Best Blowing Gum," too...
gumshoe
god is broke
19-10-2005, 17:04
This makes a lot and i do mean a lot of sense. It ties in with cbbc interview with JK, saying that that the person that owned Fawkes will be given a big role in the next book. Then she say the only person who owed Fawkes is Dumbledore. This implies that he is still alive. then on page 596 in hbp after Dumbledore is hit by the av he falls off the battlements and OUT OF SIGHT. With the body out of sight Slughorn could turn anything into the body, and go back to the castle. Also Slughorn is not in the fight in the castle, nothing is said about him being there. That plays into him switching with Dumbledore. Then on page 630 of hbp when everyone is saying that the children should stay and say goodbye to Dumbledore Slughorn is agitated, why would he be agitated unless Dumbledore and him had planned something and the kids there messed with that plan. Just my thoughts on the subject.
The course of events on the tower has spawned a few discussions - not least the manner in which Dumbledore met his supposed end - as in the actual mechanics of the spell didnt seem to add up.
Putting Dumbledore over the tower and out of sight ensured that there was no follow up spells etc to ensure he was dead.
Just wanted to add that in there - I think JKR writes things for a reason and if she just wanted to see Dumbledore die - why go to the trouble she did with the whole sequence?
Sorry - was almost a little OT and I really do want to see people's thoughts on this great theory!
it just keeps making more and more sense that Dumbledore isn't dead. the evidence is weighing up against poor old Slughorn to have been part of this plan.
i think though, i have found a flaw.
Slughorn was very hesitant to do anything Dumbledore asked, even just to come out of hiding to teach.
Or did Slughorn know that Dumbeldore wanted more than that - not just the memory?
It wouold have taken a lot of coercion to get Slughorn to agree to such an elaborate plan to fake Dumbledore's death.
I do agree with it though, which makes it very hard to argue against it!
The polyjuice potion used in PS showed us what it could be used for. For it to be used two more times, in different books, is like JKR telling us it can be used at any time by anyone. Then for there to be a vat full of the stuff, seemingly unused? It is possible someone other than Malfoy was making the most of it.
I wonder if Slughorn had Snape prepare the polyjuice potion so it would be ready for his class when he arrived?
The other thing is too, Slughorn could change himself into anything. We saw that when we first met him. Making himself appear to be Dumbledore was probably easy. I suspect this ability was what made him valuable to both sides.
I wondered about Slughorns abililty to change given this theory - I suppose I concluded he was able to change into an inorganic matter but in order to take on the physical attributes of another living thing then you have to be animagus or (and I know I am gonna spell this wrong!) Metamorphmagus ...
I suppose to contradict myself - it just seemed crude that he/Dumbledore would use Polyjuice ...
I suppose Slughorn's resistance could have been based on his fear and also returning to the place where he helped steer Voldemort down the right path - but I dont see him as being openly defiant of Dumbledore - more equal and wise ... although not the same type of man
Wow, this is still provoking discussion. Awesome. Thanks for the feedback!
g.i.b., I'm not familiar with that interview (I don't think, anyway), but maybe you can direct me to it? That sure is a compelling quote. As to the body, I keep thinking about how Barty Crouch transfigured his father's body into a bone; why couldn't something be transfigured into a body?...And yes, I agree that the students staying at Hogwarts to witness the funeral would give Slughorn another big project in the terms of this theory. I've read a lot of the funeral events as stage magic, and I think back to the twins' reference to Muggle magic as a way to make that connection.
Alz, I feel truly honored that you've enjoyed this thread so much, seeing as your position on Dumbledore's death has been pretty consistently "dead." By the way, you spelled Metamorphmagus correctly, and I agree, if Slughorn did do this, it wouldn't be via PP. (You seem to be in agreement here, kashlie?) There's only one place I see him being able to "recharge" a PP transformation, and that's when Harry turns his back in the cave to get some lake water. But there could be another reason for that (besides DD needing a drink!).
kashlie, when you bring up a possible hole in this theory (and I don't think it's indisputable, by the way), you are actually touching on a point that I've discussed in other threads -- a physical demonstration that Slughorn won't be so reluctant to help anymore.
First, you mention his hesitation to return to Hogwarts and speculate that he'd fear Dumbledore has more in mind than the memory and a Potionsmaster. I absolutely agree, and I see it as early as chapter 4. I believe he's been hiding not from DE's, but Dumbledore. He doesn't want to assist Dumbledore, and perhaps it's because he believes there's no point, that nobody can destroy Voldemort (he says in Aragog's Burial something along these lines). But I definitely get the impression that he knows Dumbledore well enough to realize that Dumbledore asks an awful lot of those close to him! (Alz seems to agree here, perhaps seeing the "near-equals" relationship btw Dumbledore and Slughorn that I do -- and a perfect image of that is when they stand back to back and wave their wands in one identical sweeping motion. I think dialogue also suggests this relationship. Although, yes, different men, but -- peers, perhaps, where Dumbledore has remained peerless throughout the series.)
Second, I don't think Slughorn would need to be coerced by the time we get to the end of the book, because that Aragog's Burial chapter demonstrates to me that Slughorn is making a choice of his own free will to give up the memory, for the purpose of helping Harry, in particular, because he learns that Harry is the Chosen One and stands a chance of defeating Voldemort (that, and the fact that Harry is Lily's son).
Here's where I hammer on the Felix, as I've discussed elsewhere.
In the scene where Harry gets the memory from Slughorn, he takes the Felix at sundown (a friend on another board gave me the time of sunset of 7:21, which is about what I'd estimated). He returns to the castle after midnight, according to the Fat Lady. JK has made a point of indicating the times here, even though she's avoided clocks. Next: Harry thinks the bottle holds "twenty-four hours' worth," and he doesn't think he'll need all of it, just enough for 2-3 hours. Slughorn, when he showed the bottle to the class, said that it had enough in it for 12 hours, from sunrise to sunset. So if Harry thinks it's got 24 hours' luck in it, and he takes a "carefully measured gulp," he's actually only got enough in him to cover 60-90 minutes. Even without Harry drinking less than he thinks, 2-3 hours would not cover the 5 hours he's gone, and the memory scene takes on a whole new meaning!
We see Harry capable of behaving in a Slytherinish way;
We see Slughorn, of free choice, giving the memory to Harry, once he learns Harry is indeed the CO, and that the reason why DD wants the memory is in order to help Harry -- through this, we see Slughorn's character evolve to a more courageous and potentially-active role-player;
And we see Harry, thinking the Felix is telling him that Slughorn will remember none of this in the morning -- if the Felix isn't working, then this is the placebo effect, and it's likely wrong, contributing to the potential in slughorn that I noted above -- because if he does give the memory freely, and he does remember the next day, his actions in the rest of the story will diverge from what we've expected of him up to this point. Even if offstage.
This may seem to be offtopic, but I assure everyone I believe it's not. It seems critical to realize that Slughorn was definitely capable of assisting in a fake Dumbledore death (even if he didn't stand in for him, and even if it turns out that Dumbledore did indeed die).
I've also started to wonder about one more thing. I think I said at the beginning of the thread that I thought it possible, even if Slughorn didn't take Dumbledore's place that night, that he'd help in some capacity, perhaps at the base of the tower, for example. I think in order to prove that (and disprove the Slughorn-as-Dumbledore theory), we'd have to have pretty clear evidence that Slughorn did something to help in Dumbledore's absence. (Although I recognize the possibility that there's other evidence that could disprove it!) One thing that could be this evidence is the hinky time period between Gibbon's trip up to the tower, supposedly to set the Dark Mark, and Draco's trip up there. Aside from the fact that the text says nobody saw him do it, it seems the time between the two is too short to allow everything that happens in Dumbledore and Harry's timeline, from when Rosmerta sees the DM to the point when Draco bursts onto the tower.
Anyhoo. I've gone on long enough! Thanks for the replies, and I look forward to hearing thoughts on the ideas above.
gumshoe
The DM could have been up there quite a while ... I mean it was supposedly set off to try and lure Dumbledore back - but for arguments sake would seem irrelevant.
I was listening again to the chapter where Minevra has all the HoH in her office and still bothers me the demenour of Slughorn - he was sweating and agitated through out this part - it seems to me strange because shouldnt he have felt upset and lost like the rest of them - shocked even?
But he doesnt - he seems more under stress ... it bothers me.
We covered Felix elsewhere - but just as with Ron and the Quidditch - I think the same of Harry and Slughorn - I really am not sure Felix is all it was cracked up to be.
The thing that bothers me still is the portrait of Dumbledore - I think they really must have done a good job planning to enchant a portrait to appear in the office.
I am torn to if Dumbledore is still alive - I love this theory but I still have to think that he is dead - but then I always said Voldemort had to have Dumbledore out of the way - this is what makes me think twice - because to give the impression Dumbledore is dead but to have him still around ... would be a big boost!
The Dark Mark: I liked thinking it was possible it was set by someone other than Gibbon, as it lent weight to the idea that the death was faked, and it tied in nicely with Slughorn forgetting the Dark Mark with the fake death scene in chapter 4. It wouldn't have occured to me if I hadn't been trying so hard to be flexible and imagine that Dumbledore was himself -- lots of posters elsewhere have a hard time with this Slughorn switch possibility.
It would still be something to consider, especially if Dumbledore stayed behind to guard the school (if that was the reason for sending Slughorn to the cave in the first place) -- then the caster might have been Dumbledore himself. The timeline does seem funky to me, even after thorough rereading and nitpicking and discussion.
I'm more convinced than ever about the cave/Slughorn theory, despite the disagreements I've encountered, because there don't seem to be alternate explanations for those relevant details from the cave, such as the potions knife, the hand use, the green eyes, the speech patterns. Trying to figure out why it would be so has been more difficult, but it may be something as simple as Dumbledore needing to remain at Hogwarts because of Malfoy being poised to strike -- however, it's hard to find evidence that he was there (and not in the cave). The Mark may be a nudge in the right direction, and perhaps the useless curses blowing up everything but the kids. This area is very murky, but it's important to try to uncover why it would have happened, difficulty aside.
I'll be writing an essay on this soon and I'd be happy to share it with TFH if I can. I also started a thread on stage magic elsewhere and that topic figures in here with the cave switch idea; I'll expound upon that another time when I can sit longer at the computer.
I have no problem with Dumbledore being alive in terms of the series: Harry will still "go it alone," serving that purpose JKR has in store for him; Voldemort will be utterly deceived and trapped, I think, in this scenario, into leading Dumbledore straight to the unknown Horcrux; and there's still one more book in which he could die for real, and have a chance to explain some things beforehand. I also don't have a problem with the deception aspect of it, as Dumbledore has been known to mislead and speak half-truths or beat around the bush in the past, as we're all well aware. And if the deception served the greater good, all the more reason to go ahead and do it.
gumshoe
It would be really cool if you share it here as well.
I think your theory has a lot of sense to it and makes the whole ending of the book that more logical - although I do feel that whoever was Dumbledore did die that night.
It bodes the same premise if it was Slughorn in disguise or even Dumbledore as himself - both had reasons for needing to leave the series - Slughorn because he was tired of running and wanted to make it up to Harry - Dumbledore because it was time and it needed to happen.
SnarkologyMajor
27-11-2005, 04:54
Merlin's beard! I seem to be a bit late to post a response
gumshoe to your original post, but I'm learning. I just wanted to say that was a fantastic new angle with which to tackle the whole Slughorn conundrum! Obviously, alot of hard work went into this idea. I can't understand why anyone would scoff out of hand, but then I'm new to posting and probably naive. I especially liked the canon work on the right/left hand references since we were bombarded w/right, left, and middle throughout HBP. I was slightly aggravated that we got Slughorn thrown into the mix at this late date (even though we had multiple slug clues) and don't for a minute believe he is who he appears to be. For that matter, Dumbledore himself seemed uncomfortably out of character in HBP. I have to applaud you for connecting those two. I'm not convinced I agree yet, but definately feel that it is worth investigation!
You know, even the crystallized pineapple (seemed like a red-herring) supports this idea, since Dumbledore has a sweet tooth! Also the silver hair, hmm....Didn't Dumbledore's raspberry jam "joke" kind of remind you of imposter Moody "jokes"? It wasn't just the dragon's blood, but the entire page 65, that was a flashing red light!
Actually that is a fair point - we know nearly all the passwords to Dumbledore's office usually surround sweets!
Link or co-incidence - well I suppose you learn that nothing happens for no reason in HP!
Alz, when I write my essay, I'll hand over a copy to you, as long as it's ok with the other forum.
I do think that if it was faked, by Slughorn or not, nobody died. I think it was Slughorn himself in the office after the tower scene.
SnarkologyMajor, glad you enjoyed the read. The 'raspberry jam' stuff just seemed to be bashing us over the head with the point that we should look out for impostors, didn't it. Not to mention how it bookended the Slughorn scene at the front along with the Mollywobbles/airplanes bit from the Weasleys.
Interesting about the crystallized pineapple. Are you wondering if Slughorn stood in for Dumbledore all along? That wasn't my take on it. I do think the pineapple is important, though: Tom Riddle is able to give Slughorn loads of the stuff, and he's flat broke. This indicates to me that Riddle knows about the secret entrance that leads to the basement at Honeydukes, and that he was utilizing it to steal the pineapple, and perhaps to get to Hogsmeade for other purposes as well.
The biggest thing for me is the connection between Slughorn and the "Muggle magic" illusion he does in Budleigh Babberton. I definitely see evidence that the tower scene and funeral could have been staged, including the blood on the mouth perhaps originating from that same vial of dusty dragon's blood Slughorn rebottled.
I suppose there is almost a semi diversion in his fascination with Aragog's venom and what properties that holds ... he did say it would fetch a nice price ...
Given it is venom - could be that it would kill - but in a measured and delivered way could it give the appearance that someone had died?
Just figured I would tack that into the speculation ;)
As for impersonation. Barty Jr did it with Polyjuice, and it could be possible for Slughorn to use that to be Dumbledore, as he had a cauldronful in his Potions classroom. But might I suggest that a man who can turn himself into an armchair and another man who used to be the Transfiguration professor may have some other tricks up their sleeves? I can only speculate
Well, we have seen quite bit about "switching spells". They are very curious and we haven't really had a chance to see their full potentials, this could offer another possibility, DD was, after all, a transiguration teacher.
I think this spec, it deliciously outstanding! especially about the AK blasting his body off the tower, highly conving.
But let me get this strait, a witch or wizard (if well practiced) could say one spell aloud while executing another one in his/her mind? We do know snape is insistant on performing silent spells/curses. . . very interesting.
As far as the unbreakable vow, would the magic know the difference if he was under the impression that DD was truly dead?
Boy this is complex, childrens story my butt!;)
Well see the UV was only concerned that Snape had to keep Draco alive - Draco could only live if Dumbledore was killed - which he was, just not by Draco - so I suppose it is down to how Voldemort see's it - Snape will work his butt off to make sure Voldemort doesnt hurt Draco - because of course it would be signing his death warrent!
Using the NV spells in this spec was actually a great thought - I mean you would have to think was a possiblity right - to utter one thing but NV a second?
In this case it would perfectly explain what was going on at the Tower and also might explain how Voldemort can cast AK and also seal a horcrux ... just a thought on that as well.
Never considered the use of a switching spell - but we know they exist - so maybe you might be onto something with that point - nice :D
SnarkologyMajor
23-12-2005, 02:31
We have many examples throughout the series of Dumbledore using NV spells-the best example is during his showdown w/Voldemort at the end of OOTP. And in HBP-right at the start in the chapter Will and Won't Dumbledore was moving furniture, conjuring glasses, pouring mead, etc. w/fewer wand flicks reguired then one has been led to believe. This was after his "injury" with the ring, not to mention Slughorn's and Dumbledore's "one identical sweeping motion" fixing at least 11 things at once. I don't believe for a second that Dumbledore wouldn't be able to freeze Harry and deflect Draco's expelliarmus at the same time(no matter his condition) We have alot of clues that Dumbledore wasn't the one to freeze Harry at all-but that is probably on another thread.:eek:
All the canon that gumshoe has brought to this thread seems to be very valid and plausible-I was just having trouble wrapping my head around the whole portrait of Albus-but given how powerful both wizards are, I've concluded that's not as big a problem as it appears. You're right gumshoe(sorry this is so late:D ) I do get the feeling that Slughorn and Albus were playing switcheroo in the whole book and not just the cave. One of the main hurdles of solving any of the mysteries in the series is-the cast of characters is just to big!:D We haven't been smacked in the face yet with the full implications of metamorphamagi, switching spells, or shrinking spells(de-aging):D I have an inkling that we're going to be shocked by at least one person who has appeared to be multiple characters.
One of the biggest things that bug me about the whole cave scene-is the feeling that Dumbledore(Slughorn?) has to have been there before. Even with instructions I don't see how you would ever find the place-and the whole swimming around in the ocean was just plain weird! I also agree with the notion that the whole thing was more about going through the motions to get Harry connected with R.A.B. than anything else. Just to really confuse matters I'm finding strange connections between Dumbledore, Regulas(Raphael), and Slughorn-just bits and pieces that are going to take time to sort through. Just for fun though isn't it cool that Slug Club is in Regulus Black's name(I don't take anagrams to seriously-too many possiblilities) I just thought that was kind of cool!
I'm not sure how much I helped here:eek: I really am just trying to help :D
Just to pick up on one point above - I would like to enter into the theory that if it was Slughorn or Dumbledore - they knew who RAB was and maybe even been one of them - that locket they supposedly extracted had the clue in it - and remember who one minute they are down and half dead - next they are swishing around a protection spell and most important - they alone extraced the contents of the basin - Harry only see's what is in the pocket post mortem ...
And SM - tell me more, be it in another thread - about the real caster of the freezing charm - I am totally interested in that!
gumshoe, I've finally finished the series, and I read the cave and tower chapters with particular interest--I actually read them aloud to my family as we were traveling to Disneyland. We are all convinced that DD in the cave could really have been Slughorn. I also noticed in this read through that DD and Slughorn began teaching at Hogwarts about the same time.
I think it's worth it to try and figure out what slughorns strengths are, because if he could pass as DD then he would be a great tutor for Harry. I'm convinced Harry does not have the ability to defeat voldy yet. . . Will Harry need to learn Avada Kedavra?
Sorry I got off track, has anyone figured out a motive for DD wanting to switch places??
It might have been more Slughorn wanting to swap more than Dumbledore.
Slughorn feels he did untold damage - he had a real soft spot for Lily and now after all these years on concealing his part in Voldemort's knowledge of Horcruxes - he has Lily son, the boy who was left without his parents because of Slughorn's need to impress and be 'in' - I think all of this plus him not wanting to run and hide anymore might have lead to him to want to die ...
So did we come to the conclusion the slughorn died in DD place? Or was it a dummy, like previously suggested?
It's all very confusing, but I like your explenation of Slughorn feeling responsible for Voldmorts horcruxes. However DD would make sure to console Slughor a little maybe a little "It's not your fault" or "He would have found out sooner of later." Why would DD go along with it.
He is a VERY wise wizrd, but it has been suggested that he's off his rocker a little. Would DD trust slughorn with Harry or the task of destroying the horcrux. Or if DD already knew that the horcrux was taken, who wanted Harry to find out about R.A.B. DD or Slughorn? Could Slughorn have taken Harry without DD knowledge? Or am I just making things more complex than they really are?
Sry again, I'm just loaded with questions. This is one of my fave speculations.:rolleyes:
I think it's worth it to try and figure out what slughorns strengths are, because if he could pass as DD then he would be a great tutor for Harry. I'm convinced Harry does not have the ability to defeat voldy yet. . . Will Harry need to learn Avada Kedavra?
Sorry I got off track, has anyone figured out a motive for DD wanting to switch places??
I don't think Harry will AK LV, and DD is the reason why:
OotP, p. 814
“ You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?” . . . “We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom” . . . “Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit--”
I think Harry will do something akin to what DD did when he defeated Grindelwald--whatever that was.
And if someone wants to compare Slughorn and DD, look at the chapter where DD and Slughorn straighten Sluggy's house after the faked death. Interesting mirror image picture there.
Okay, I've clearly been away too long! Really excited to see this topic is still interesting!
The mirror image was the first thing that really struck me: It gives us an indication that Dumbledore and Slughorn are equivocal with their spells (at least Slughorn's no slouch, even if he's not equal to Dumbledore) -- and it also shows me that Slughorn's wand-hand is his left.
I don't think anyone died on the tower. But I can see Slughorn suggesting the switch, or Dumbledore suggesting it when Slughorn lets him know that he knows why he was after the memory and that he's now willing to assist.
Dumbledore would trust Slughorn with this expedition if he was forced to choose between going to the cave or staying at Hogwarts to protect the students. Also if Slughorn is the only one who knows about the Horcruxes (outside of Dumbledore, Harry, Ron/Hermione).
As for Harry being frozen, it does appear that there are other factors at work -- I've thought that Dumbledore and Slughorn were both present in that tower scene, and if Dumbledore isn't being impersonated by Slughorn, that Slughorn is acting as an unseen assistant. Otherwise, it would seem that someone lowered Dumbledore (or Slughorn) to the ground. Once on the ground, a dummy body was placed. A poster on another forum pointed out that it seems suspicious that the blood on the mouth is still wet enough to be wiped away, when it's been about 15 minutes since the fall.
I have no problem with the portrait. A poster on YET another forum suggested the best idea for that yet: Dumbledore says, before leaving the office, "I am no longer Headmaster." He leaves and the portrait goes up.
Switching spell is a fantastic idea. I've always thought that Slughorn wouldn't need Polyjuice to impersonate Dumbledore -- and he'd likely be the only person we know who could pull off an impersonation: he's known Dumbledore for over 50 years. If you look at the Apparition to the cave, it could show us that he's not Dumbledore, in that he doesn't seem to know when Harry's birthday is -- at any rate, the Apparition is different, but it wasn't distinctive enough to include in my introductory post. Dumbledore never counted to three before when Apparating, but he did previously count to three when Portkeying. I thought that it might be possible for him to be counting because they're both Apparating this time, so it didn't seem conclusive enough to point out for this reason.
So what on earth would Slughorn do with that venom anyway?
As for the UV, in terms of this spec, if Draco's mission is to kill Dumbledore, and Dumbledore isn't on the tower, then he hasn't FAILED to kill Dumbledore, but Slughorn instead. Therefore, the UV is still in effect.
"Slug Club Rake?..." (I love anagrams too!)
gumshoe
SnarkologyMajor
29-12-2005, 03:17
Or Slug Club Krea-DARN!:D Somehow I have the feeling she will use at least one anagram again but trying to pin that down is fairly impossible!(fun though)
The polyjuice potion clues-I feel they were thrown in to point us in the wrong direction-if she does use polyjuice again it will probably be along the vein of Rita Skeeter(minor storyline) Why introduce something as compelling as switching spells and never use them-this Dumbledore/Slughorn scenario seems a very likely candidate. I keep thinking about Dumbledore's statement-
US HBP pg. 553 - "I sometimes offer Rosmerta my custom, or else visit the Hog's Head...or I appear to. It is as good a way as any of disguising one's true destination."
He makes it sound as though it's not very difficult to be in two places at once(or have 2 Dumbledore's running around) Plus he implies that he uses multiple methods of disguise.:D
I love the idea w/the portrait-so simple, yet effective-which in the end-simple is usually the best(unbelievably complicated figuring it out backwards!:D
It wasn't only the mirror image of Dumbledore/Slughorn and their one identical sweeping motion that grabs your attention-but the entire passages pre-devastation and post-devastation screamed one giant metaphor to me-
US HBP pg. 63- A scene of total devastation met their eyes.A grandfather clock lay splintered at their feet, it's face cracked, it's pendulum lying a little farther away like a dropped sword.
pg.65-...torn books repaired themselves as they landed on their shelves; oil lanterns soared onto side tables and reignited;....rips, cracks, and holes healed everywhere, and walls wiped themselves clean.
"What kind of blood was that, incidentally?" asked Dumbledore loudly over the chiming of the newly unsmashed grandfather clock.
Not only does this scene hint at Dumbledore/Slughorn working together to manipulate events, but w/all the other broken clocks/fixing clocks going on in Book 6, they may be time- meddling too. Those rips and cracks kind of reminds you of Voldemort's horcruxes doesn't it?
My feeling is that nothing that happened on that tower was what it appeared - and I'm almost convinced that Dumbledore wasn't the one to freeze Harry. I haven't reached any conclusions as to who did but-I'm trying to put together a thread on that:D Slughorn seems to be the best avenue and maybe we can make some guesses together.:D
I don't know what to think about the acromantula venom yet-but have been very suspicious ever since Harry got bitten in Book 4-he had the poison in his blood and Voldemort used his blood. We know that they flee from the basilisk-but do we know for sure that their venom isn't toxic to a basilisk? We don't know which wizard bred the acromantula or when...hmmm...
US HBP pg. 553 - "I sometimes offer Rosmerta my custom, or else visit the Hog's Head...or I appear to. It is as good a way as any of disguising one's true destination."
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I love the idea w/the portrait-so simple, yet effective-which in the end-simple is usually the best(unbelievably complicated figuring it out backwards!:D
--------
It wasn't only the mirror image of Dumbledore/Slughorn and their one identical sweeping motion that grabs your attention-but the entire passages pre-devastation and post-devastation screamed one giant metaphor to me-
US HBP pg. 63- A scene of total devastation met their eyes.A grandfather clock lay splintered at their feet, it's face cracked, it's pendulum lying a little farther away like a dropped sword.
pg.65-...torn books repaired themselves as they landed on their shelves; oil lanterns soared onto side tables and reignited;....rips, cracks, and holes healed everywhere, and walls wiped themselves clean.
"What kind of blood was that, incidentally?" asked Dumbledore loudly over the chiming of the newly unsmashed grandfather clock.
Not only does this scene hint at Dumbledore/Slughorn working together to manipulate events, but w/all the other broken clocks/fixing clocks going on in Book 6, they may be time- meddling too. Those rips and cracks kind of reminds you of Voldemort's horcruxes doesn't it?
OK - sorry for dissecting the post but a few things I wanted to pick up on ...
First part is very well observed - I still have the thoughts of PS/SS when Dumbledore was seen leaving for the Ministry - but around to save Harry from Quirrel after Harry blacked out - so yeah liking that a lot - and given the amount of time Dumbledore would have needed to slip away in the past it is very plausible!
Next point - and the one made by gumshoe - someone needs to explain that?
Are you speculating that him saying he isnt HM anymore would lead to him having a portrait? Or are you suggesting he actually said that? :confused:
Either way - I thought it was dead Headmasters and not ones that have left the role?
Last part I really like from a time perspective - it screams symbolism right there!
Sorry - just needed to get some more detail on the above before continuing!
As I reread the series this last time, I paid particular attention to references to the portraits in DD's office. Every single time, they are referred to as former, old, or past headmasters/mistresses. It is not until Harry comes into the office after the tower scene that the portraits are refered to as DEAD headmasters/mistresses. It's been suggested that could be coming from Harry's point of view and not necessarily an accurate description of the state of the people in the portraits. Now JK, when asked about the portraits at Hogwarts, said everyone is dead, but that was pre-HBP. I think what gumshoe is suggesting is that the portraits don't necessarily appear in the office because a headmaster/mistress dies but when one leaves office. We never saw DD's office while Umbridge was "headmistress." It could be that all DD had to do was to resign from office and "poof" a portrait appears in the office. It's all speculation, but JK's never said one way or the other, so anything's possible.
SnarkologyMajor
30-12-2005, 04:55
Thanks HeleneB-That's what I was thinking too and wanted to check but my daughter high-jacked OOTP:rolleyes: It seems like she wants us to think only dead headmasters have their portrait in the head office-but can we really think that all the previous headmasters hanging in there are dead? I think you explained it much better-I may have just confused it more!:eek:
ummm - ummmm - ummmm - in the interests of spec you cant fault that but does seem a little like grasping ... not that I am adverse to that of course, just read my posts!
It's interesting because it relies once again on our perception of what JKR is saying - our own interpretation ... I think there are plenty of times in the books we are left to make our own judgements on what she was saying or doing - and it is possible that our own biases might help her shroud something!
Thanks - kinda makes more sense in what you are saying - after I read it I was searching HBP looking for his saying he resigned! :o
SnarkologyMajor
31-12-2005, 04:29
Yeah-certainly using Harry's perspective on things has been one of Jo's biggest smokescreens!:D It bewitches the mind and ensares the senses-lol-Seriously though-it's not until you read through the books from an adult's perception on things instead of Harry's that you can begin to see things that were previously as clear as mud:D God love The Boy Who Lived though-he's going to kick some you know what in book 7!
Alz, Helene answered for me (thanks, H): No, he never said he resigned -- it was just the thought that he could resign and his portrait would go up. Headmaster portraits were never referred to as dead in the books until that view of the portraits through Harry's eyes after Dumbledore's "death."
SnarkologyMajor, the grandfather clock image popped in my head in the middle of the night: Can Dumbledore (possibly Slughorn too?) do spells with Time? I'm connecting this image with the stuff Dumbledore does in the Ministry and the image of the bell jar and the clocks there...I have no idea what to make of it, just a germ of an idea that you generated. And of course I've no more TIME...have to dash....
gumshoe
OK - but I still remember JKR saying this about portraits ...
JKR on portraits: They (the Hogwarts portraits) are all of dead people; they are not as fully realised as ghosts, as you have probably noticed. The place where you see them really talk is in Dumbledore’s office, primarily; the idea is that the previous headmasters and headmistresses leave behind a faint imprint of themselves. They leave their aura, almost, in the office and they can give some counsel to the present occupant, but it is not like being a ghost. They repeat catchphrases, almost. The portrait of Sirius’ mother is not a very 3D personality; she is not very fully realised. She repeats catchphrases that she had when she was alive. If Harry had a portrait of his parents it would not help him a great deal. If he could meet them as ghosts, that would be a much more meaningful interaction, but as Nick explained at the end of Phoenix—I am straying into dangerous territory, but I think you probably know what he explained—there are some people who would not come back as ghosts because they are unafraid, or less afraid, of death.
You can still argue your point I suppose - but her first line seems to suggest dead as well ...
Yes, but her response to that question was pre-HBP, so that could impact it. Is it that the pictures are ALWAYS of dead people or just that at that point in time, they happen to all be dead?
If they are all of dead people, does that mean that they all died whilst they were headmaster? Or did some retire or resign only to have their portraits mounted after their death?
Frankly I cannot imagine that every headmaster died whilst still in charge. And if they did, who cursed the position :p
It is impossible for me to believe that every headmaster did such a wonderful job and that no one was ever unhappy and called for a resignation.
Sooo, I guess what I am saying is that either the portraits are put up after the headmaster leaves the post, and JKR meant that all of them are dead NOW, or the portraits are only put up if the headmaster is really dead.
Option 1 is well suited to the DD is alive theory, as he has left the post, and it doesn't necessarily mean he is really dead.
I guess the question if a Head ever resigns or just dies in service is one only JKR can answer.
I see your point - but I still feel that pre or post HBP - JKR doesn't usually contradict herself that easily and with something so important - I just feel that would be unfair. JKR says she never lies when answering questions - I think she is very aware of what she lets slip and if it is possible for the resignation to cause a portrait - I think we would have seen a similar example in the past which she would then use when questioned over it ... understand what I mean?
As I said, I see both your points - it is intriguing, just playing devils advocate ;)
SnarkologyMajor
02-01-2006, 02:23
gumshoe-most ideas always seem to connect with time!:D That grandfather clock being smashed and then repaired was such an obvious allusion-it is difficult to ignore. The whole scene reinforced the idea of time being twiddled with, and I think this goes along with some of the other threads-Dumbledore freezing Harry and the Phoenix Lament. Now this may sound out there but-I had the thought that maybe the cave seemed ancient, was ancient, because it was literally ancient-could they have gone back in time? My daughter had the idea-what better place for Voldemort to hide a horcrux then back in time? Just an idea...:D
I guess the question if a Head ever resigns or just dies in service is one only JKR can answer.
Yes, but it's just so curious that not a single reference to the headmaster/mistress portraits in DD's office prior to DD's "death" uses the word dead--until the tower scene. That's just too odd to let go without a challenge!:p
I see your point - but I still feel that pre or post HBP - JKR doesn't usually contradict herself that easily and with something so important - I just feel that would be unfair. JKR says she never lies when answering questions - I think she is very aware of what she lets slip and if it is possible for the resignation to cause a portrait - I think we would have seen a similar example in the past which she would then use when questioned over it ... understand what I mean?
But neither does she tell us things we don't need to know at the time--she's a little Dumbledorish in that. ;) When she was asked if the gray haired wizard dies, she said something along the lines of "basically, yes." But what does that really mean? In the genre in general or HBP specifically? JK has said she sees books 6 & 7 as really one book. The ending of HBP is certainly not what we've come to expect. Another poster said it was like she'd pushed the pause button. HBP is still coming out in different languages. If she denied that DD died--and then we saw him "die" at the end of HBP, it would be an absolute giveaway that his death was faked. If she said he did die, and then we learned that he'd faked his death, she'd be accused of lying to her readers.
I realize this could all be wishful thinking on my part.
gumshoe-most ideas always seem to connect with time!:D That grandfather clock being smashed and then repaired was such an obvious allusion-it is difficult to ignore. The whole scene reinforced the idea of time being twiddled with, and I think this goes along with some of the other threads-Dumbledore freezing Harry and the Phoenix Lament. Now this may sound out there but-I had the thought that maybe the cave seemed ancient, was ancient, because it was literally ancient-could they have gone back in time? My daughter had the idea-what better place for Voldemort to hide a horcrux then back in time? Just an idea...:D
What an idea! That would have really complicated the search, though.
About time, I agree with gumshoe that it's very curious that DD sent Harry to get a cloak he already knew Harry had. Why did DD need that five minutes? It's not enough time to get much done . . . unless you go back in time and make it more than five minutes.
SnarkologyMajor
03-01-2006, 04:26
Yes that five minutes certainly seems to point to both time-meddling and Dumbledore perhaps finalizing last minute details w/a cohort(Slughorn):D It's also interesting that Dumbledore is standing by a fiery red window and the sun is a ruby red glare since the sun(and time) are always mentioned right before something big happens at the end of each book:D Of course this could be pointing in the direction of all the astrological clues she's given us also. That five minutes coupled w/what appears as missing time The Phoenix Lament (it felt like along time later that the hospital door opened again) makes you feel like you've fallen down the rabbit hole:D And of course reinforces our feeling that nothing that happened in that time frame was quite what it appeared.
This is a bit off the beaten track but I noticed something really strange about Slug as I was looking through Ch. 4 (again:eek: )
pg. 75 - "He used to handpick favorites at Hogwarts, sometimes for their ambition or their brains, sometimes for their charm or their talent, and he had an uncanny knack for choosing those who would go on to become outstanding in their various fields.
That sounds precisely like the Sorting Hat doesn't it? Not sure what to make of it but it is weird!:eek:
Perhaps he uses the same thing as the twins did in GoF - when they got their bet so right in what can only be desribed as a fluke ... or that they had some way of seeing the future ...
Could be the same for Sluggy - perhaps he had a device that could see the future of these young students without any pollution from him - I know the future isnt written but if it isnt interfered with or even known - it tends to follow down the tracks ...
Sorry for the digression ... :D
Have you read any of the DUNE books? It's interesting in that the main character, Paul Atreides, is able to see the future. But it's this constant changing mess of things, because each action someone takes has the potential to influence someone who then does something different--and he saw all the possibilities and not what was absolutely going to happen. Made it very interesting to try and influence what he thought was the correct path. In the short term, it might seem bad but be best in the end. Especially tough when everything seemed to lead to jihad.
umm - interesting - sounds more fitting for the mighty D thou maybe - the watch with planets etc still bugs me!
So have we formed any kind of concensus as to the exact motivations for Slughorn and Dumbledore to swap?
Sorry - 7 pages and 65 posts I am too lazy to go check :o
I know what I think--I'm not sure that others agree--even gumshoe who started this fun thread. She's convinced me that DD could have switched with Sluggy. A couple of things did that for me:
1. Slughorn had a change of heart when he talked with Harry. It's interesting that in the Scholastic version (as noticed by her gumminess) that Slughorn tells Harry when he gives him the Felix that there's enough for 12 hours. When Harry takes it he talks about 24 hours. It says 12 hours in both places in the Bloomsbury edition. Gumshoe says she thinks (and correct me if I'm wrong here, gumshoe) that the Felix had run out by the time Sluggy gives Harry the memory. This is important because it's really him making that decision to give up the memory AND he could remember the event. That, to me, indicates serious character growth and what I term a "life-changing event." As we get older, it takes a life-changing event for us to truly change. I envision Slughorn, who now accepts Harry as the Chosen One, wanting to help and going to DD to see what he can do. This leads to my issue with the swap theory to begin with. DD's reasoning in making such a swap in the first place.
2. DD schedules the trip to the cave and arranges to have members of the Order at the school in his absence. Just before he's supposed to leave, Harry shows up with news that sounds very much like Draco has succeeded in his task. Now I think DD has known that he will be out of things even if he's successful in faking his death and has prepared for this event--just not at this exact moment! DD does not want to leave the school if it looks like DEs could be coming any moment. What does he do? It's imperative that Harry go to the cave and experience a horcrux hunt, but DD must remain at the school. So, DD sends Harry to get an invisibility cloak he already knows Harry has with him. DD uses that time (and perhaps more if DD's watch is indeed a time turner) to convince Slughorn to stand in for him. This would have been a great leap of faith, I think, for Sluggy because he'd be coming back where possibly DEs are at--Hogwarts! DD would have some way for Sluggy not to be killed--there are a number of possiblilites that could have been arranged. Slughorn transforms into DD and takes Harry. DD becomes invisible and helps the DA kids when the fight begins. Do we really believe it was only the Felix that kept anyone from dying? Tonks said they were losing, remember.
Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it! :D But I love other ideas as well.
SnarkologyMajor
05-01-2006, 05:07
I would say that ties it up quite nicely HeleneB:D
Just wanted to add on to the idea that R.A.B. is the one who put that potion in the basin. Now when I added my post about the Draught of Living Dead-I forgot that Slug had said the potion was supposed to be clear(sorry:o ) I think it was Dumbledore who said that the potion would be re-filling(can't find that anywhere though) but we know he makes mistakes, so if it wasn't able to refill itself than who filled it? Certainly not Voldemort or I think he would have noticed his horcrux has gone a missing-hence R.A.B. must have left the potion for Voldemort. My brilliant child:D(sorry for bragging but that's what moms do) had the idea that maybe the Draught of Living Dead is in the lake-afterall it stores Inferi, and I just thought it was pretty fitting if R.A.B. had planned to give Voldy a taste of his own medicine:D Of course it is unfortunate that Dumbledore was the one to drink it instead(although he may of been aware of what it was). The potion in the basin could have literally been some sort of drug or poison since it seemed to cause hallucinations and extreme thirst, and I believe there are alot of drugs that do precisely that. Any thoughts?
This has been discussed at some length in another forum, and I'm not sure how I feel about it, because I'm not sure which potion creator is worse--LV or RAB. I think LV would have wanted to question any intruder as DD suggested. The potion then should inhibit but preserve the intruder. RAB was out for a pound of flesh, hoping LV would have to drink the potion. I hate to think of DD drinking--mamoth amounts, no less!--anything someone created to "pay back" LV.
Interesting idea about the lake water. Since the Inferi are already dead, I'm not sure what would be benefitted there, but definitely the drinker of the potion. I wonder how many ingredients you'd have to use to change an entire lake into DoLD. And would it be complicated if there was a source of water refreshing it?
SnarkologyMajor
06-01-2006, 02:02
HeleneB-I feel the important thing here is whether or not the potion was self-filling-now my eyes are feeling their age:( but I can't find where that is stated(or speculated) in canon anywhere? Could use some help on that front:D If the potion does not automatically refill itself-then I would say it had to be R.A.B. who left the potion otherwise we'd be saying that Voldemort left the fake.
We have been told that no spell can reawaken the dead and since we have evidence of an army of the dead, than I would say the Draught of Living Dead(potion) is our likely culprit. It could be that the potion is only on the surface of the lake-I don't know but wouldn't think a lake full of the stuff would be difficult for Voldemort(less difficult that creating horcruxes) I'm going to speculate here but I really think that the three things that Snape told Harry about in Book 1 came to fruition in Book 6-
SS/PS pg. 138- ...asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death. A bezoar is a stone taken from the stomach of a goat and it will save you from most poisons. As for monkshood and wolfsbane, they are the same plant, which also goes by the name of aconite.
The bezoar is a given-Harry used it to save Ron's life. If the lake water is actually the DOLD then it also made it's debut in HBP(and of course in Slug's class). Now I've always thought that Snape's third comment relates to either 2 people being the same person(Slug/Dumbledore) or to 3 in 1. Interestingly Monkshood was used in ancient battles to poison enemies water supplies, Wolfsbane was used to reverse shape shifting, and Aconite was used as a sedative(small amounts:D ).
Also in Snapes first class-
pg. 139-... Malfoy had stewed his horned slugs when clouds of acid green smoke and a loud hissing filled the dungeon.
I think these are all further hints that Slughorn and Dumbledore were masquerading as each other at the end of HBP.:D
hi there, I'm new, just logged myself in.
I was really amazed by the speculations on the forum.
Now, I think that, when R.A.B. stole the Horcrux in the cave, he'd put potion back in the basin: when one day, LV would pay a visit to the cave he would immediately see there was no potion(if it's not self-filling) in the basin. I think R.A.B. re-filled it as a trap for LV.
Though it would be more likely LV has a way to vanish the potion. :p
Welcome to the forum, MAH. There's indeed a lot of speculation that RAB refilled the basin -- I don't recall ever reading that Dumbledore supposed it would refill itself (perhaps that's why you can't find it, SM?). That said, there's a great theory about the whole thing being a training mission designed and executed by Dumbledore (and Slughorn and/or Snape); it can be found here, don't recall the name, but the originator of the idea (in my experience) was baylor. If he's correct, the basin was refilled by one of his Potionsmasters with something to appear so horrible as to test Harry's resolve and his commitment to Dumbledore and the ability to choose between what is right and what is easy.
Helene, yeah, you know I think the explanation for the five minutes is to get Slughorn off his pouf and out the door -- but I don't necessarily think he'd have to use a Time Turner to make this happen (although I do think his watch is one). Rather, it would make sense that after the hut scene, Slughorn would have met with Dumbledore (admittedly, we've no evidence of this) and told him what transpired between himself and Harry, that he understands why Dumbledore wanted the memory in the first place, and that he's willing to lend a hand in whatever way he can (within Slughorn's personal capacity of course). In that scenario, all Dumbledore would have to do is trot down to Slughorn's office (which isn't far as I recall -- and JK does show us where it is, and it's close enough to the fighting that one might think that he'd have heard something if he was there that night) -- and he'd say, "now's your chance and here's what to do." I don't think he'd have been able to make that cave trip if he thought he was in any danger -- that's one reason why the training run theory fits neatly with the Slughorn/switch theory -- but even without the training run, Slughorn's got a cauldron of Felix at his disposal, and a "slug" of that, combined with explicit instructions from Dumbledore, and he'd be on his way.
Dumbledore would certainly (as Helene's already pointed out) realize he's in an awful predicament when Harry tells him Malfoy is poised to strike. What to do? He's got the cave trip arranged and it's now perhaps his last opportunity to impart important information to Harry; moreover, Harry must learn several key things during the trip: How slippery it is to find a Horcrux, how difficult it is to follow through on getting it, and finally, how to destroy one -- although if this was a training run, and DD knew the real Horcrux was gone, this wouldn't factor in. But I do think Slughorn is a perfect choice for the switch in this regard, as he seems to be as well-versed as Dumbledore in the Dark Arts and perhaps Horcruxes in particular as well.
So, if he's faced with a choice -- go to the cave, or stay at Hogwarts to discover the vulnerability and be on-hand for whatever mayhem may ensue -- he'd choose both, if he could swing it, and send Slughorn in his place on the first mission. Besides, one more benefit of Harry being at the cave: He's out of harm's way (despite the dangers of the cave).
This post has me wondering if perhaps after all there was some bookending-switching going on: Folks on another forum have wondered if there was a switch at Spinner's End...I'm thinking of it now, because I was about to write how Slughorn would have to impersonate Dumbledore to get whatever information Dumbledore needed -- the cave wouldn't happen the same w/ Slughorn at the helm (Harry wouldn't trust his motives or abilities -- look what happened when Ron was poisoned, for example) and the info collected on the tower wouldn't have been collected if Draco was pointing his wand at Slughorn instead of Dumbledore ("Dumbledore"). So: Important information is collected in Spinner's End by Snape (Snape -- or Dumbledore?) that cannot be collected by anyone other than Snape -- there's an eavesdropper (Wormtail...was it Snape after all?) -- this is especially resonant with the Dumbledore/Dursleys scene. Just going of on a random offshoot here, and I might even chuck it out the window, considering Snape makes a toast "To the Dark Lord," when Dumbledore never toasts (except when Cedric died -- oh, and the cave, but that was Slughorn ;) ).
My essay (on this topic) for the other forum is done, and I've asked permission to submit it here; will let you know, Alz. I should note that there was room to add and expand, but if I had, it would have doubled in size, and it was already pretty unwieldy.
gumshoe
ps. DOLD = lake water, very interesting; stewed slugs/green smoke -- also interesting, considering Ron's nonverbal, green "eat slugs" spell (fake AK anyone?).
HeleneB-I feel the important thing here is whether or not the potion was self-filling-now my eyes are feeling their age:( but I can't find where that is stated(or speculated) in canon anywhere? Could use some help on that front:D If the potion does not automatically refill itself-then I would say it had to be R.A.B. who left the potion otherwise we'd be saying that Voldemort left the fake.
If your eyes are failing you then mine are, too. I've looked for the reference, and I can't find it. I've been taking it on faith (perhaps my bad), since it's been discussed in another forum as though the book said the basin automatically refilled.
Are you thinking that the inferi in the cave aren't really dead but sleeping?
According to Lexicon, wolfsbane is used to make the potion that "prevents the extremely dangerous dementia which would otherwise accompany the transformation from human into werewolf"--good for Lupin.
And something I noticed in my most recent read of HBP was when Harry side-along apparated with DD. The first is on p 58 of the U.S. Hardback Version of HBP:
"So you will need to hold on to my arm very tightly. My left, if you don't mind--as you have noticed, my wand arm is a little fragile at the moment."
Harry gripped Dumbledore's proffered forearm.
"Very good," said Dumbledore. "Well, here we go."
Harry felt Dumbledore's arem twist away from him and redoubled his grip; the next thing he knew . . .
Compared to the trip to the cave p. 554:
"It will not be necessary for us to enter," mumbled Dumbledore, [I don't remember DD mumbling before] glancing around. "As long as nobody sees us go . . . now place your hand upon my arm, Harry. There is no need to grip too hard, I am merely guiding you. On the count of three . . . One . . . two . . . three . . ."
Harry turned. At once, there was that horrible sensation . . . The bolding and bracketing are my question.
It almost seems, in the second instance, that "DD" was doing this with Harry for the first time. . .
Gumshoe - about the time turner. I was thinking that if it was a last minute decision to have Slughorn fill in for him for the horcrux hunt, DD might need a little extra time to convince Sluggy now was the time--I like your comment about DD giving Slughorn the choice of which "DD" to be. I figured that and giving a detailed description of the cave and its protections would take more than 5 minutes.
Helene,
Actually, I never thought of it that way -- that Dumbledore would give Slughorn an option. Frankly, I'd assume that the purpose was for him to simply take Harry to the cave. But -- the tower events ensued, and perhaps real-Dumbledore (assuming the switch theory for discussion's sake) allowed things to continue to get the information from Draco, having faith in Slughorn's ability to hold on. If real-Dumbledore was there, listening, was he a bee? Or perhaps invisible? That's where it gets sketchy, as you well know.
The Apparating differently bit was the FIRST thing that jumped out at me when I hit upon the Slughorn-switch theory. But when I first posted it, I didn't know what to do with it, so either I referred to it as inconclusive or left it out. It was the counting and the grasp that got me, because the only other times Dumbledore counted in the series was with a Portkey, but if that were the case, we might assume "Dumbledore" here should consult a timepiece, which he doesn't appear to do. However, I like the Portkey idea if it's Slughorn, because I think his size makes Apparition difficult/dangerous/near-impossible for him -- Rowling brought up Charlie Weasley's difficulty passing his test, and in the same breath cited his size.
Anyway, I have no problem with a Time Turner being used (I definitely got your point), but just don't think it's necessary to the whole thing -- that was all I meant. If there's something else that indicates five minutes wouldn't be long enough to do what he has to do, then we should take it into more consideration. The thing that gets me is that in PoA, Harry and Hermione also have "five minutes." So as I said, not discounting it, but wondering if there isn't another way -- like previous preparation, like perhaps some of the cave information initially came from Slughorn or was discovered with him? (Maybe that's more complicated than your suggestion!!)
One more thing I must mention about multiple switches (a topic that's always made me nervous -- seems like too much to swallow): What if the reason Slughorn-Dumbledore was instructed to get Snape was b/c he was Dumbledore? The problem there, of course, is that it leaves Dumbledore doing nothing for the fight. Another interesting thing to consider -- maybe Snape can see through Transfiguration or Polyjuice disguises, via Legilimency or another means?
Augh, stuff I should have added to my essay -- I should have mentioned Harry's instructions to do whatever Dumbledore says -- it was pretty strong evidence, I thought, especially when in the cave, Dumbledore says, "Did I not" and "did you not." Heck.
gumshoe
Helene,
Actually, I never thought of it that way -- that Dumbledore would give Slughorn an option. Frankly, I'd assume that the purpose was for him to simply take Harry to the cave. But -- the tower events ensued, and perhaps real-Dumbledore (assuming the switch theory for discussion's sake) allowed things to continue to get the information from Draco, having faith in Slughorn's ability to hold on.
That's what I had also been thinking until I misunderstood you. I would think that DD would feel a strong need to have his power at the school. Now if Slughorn had accompanied DD to the cave in a previous visit, there would be no need for a description of how to get there and the protections. But if this is Sluggy's first shot at being brave, he might need a bit more encouragement about doing the job. I remember how long it took going from class to class at college. Five minutes isn't very long at all.
If real-Dumbledore was there, listening, was he a bee? Or perhaps invisible? That's where it gets sketchy, as you well know.
I know some have suggested that DD's an animagus and it could be a bee. But we mustn't forget that he's also good at transfiguration, since he was transfiguration teacher for many years (and he's DD, of course;) ). If Slughorn can transform himself into a chair, surely DD can transform himself into a bee. And I wonder what the difference is between that kind of transfiguration and being an animagus (obviously this one you have no control over).
The Apparating differently bit was the FIRST thing that jumped out at me when I hit upon the Slughorn-switch theory. But when I first posted it, I didn't know what to do with it, so either I referred to it as inconclusive or left it out. It was the counting and the grasp that got me, because the only other times Dumbledore counted in the series was with a Portkey, but if that were the case, we might assume "Dumbledore" here should consult a timepiece, which he doesn't appear to do. However, I like the Portkey idea if it's Slughorn, because I think his size makes Apparition difficult/dangerous/near-impossible for him -- Rowling brought up Charlie Weasley's difficulty passing his test, and in the same breath cited his size.
Good one. I've seen your references in the past to this in the other forum, but I didn't get what you were saying. Do the books say "DD" touches something that could turn out to be a portkey?
Anyway, I have no problem with a Time Turner being used (I definitely got your point), but just don't think it's necessary to the whole thing -- that was all I meant. If there's something else that indicates five minutes wouldn't be long enough to do what he has to do, then we should take it into more consideration. The thing that gets me is that in PoA, Harry and Hermione also have "five minutes." So as I said, not discounting it, but wondering if there isn't another way -- like previous preparation, like perhaps some of the cave information initially came from Slughorn or was discovered with him? (Maybe that's more complicated than your suggestion!!)
Well, perhaps DD could have used the extra time to visit the cave if he hadn't been there yet, so he could describe it to Slughorn. If Sluggy did switch with DD to go to the cave, I'm more inclined to think he'd be brave enough to go if DD had been there before or could in some way describe it based upon information from someone else who had been there--Snape? But then what about the locket and potion? :confused:
One more thing I must mention about multiple switches (a topic that's always made me nervous -- seems like too much to swallow): What if the reason Slughorn-Dumbledore was instructed to get Snape was b/c he was Dumbledore? The problem there, of course, is that it leaves Dumbledore doing nothing for the fight. Another interesting thing to consider -- maybe Snape can see through Transfiguration or Polyjuice disguises, via Legilimency or another means?
I agree that the switched identity possibilities are enormous in this story, but JK has set us up for this--especially with all that talk about passwords to make sure people are who they say they are--that didn't show up in HBP. We just have to guess that something will either come up in the current day of Book 7, or we will find out that it took place somewhere in HBP.
The Frozen North
08-01-2006, 00:54
I know some have suggested that DD's an animagus and it could be a bee. But we mustn't forget that he's also good at transfiguration, since he was transfiguration teacher for many years (and he's DD, of course;) ). If Slughorn can transform himself into a chair, surely DD can transform himself into a bee. And I wonder what the difference is between that kind of transfiguration and being an animagus (obviously this one you have no control over).
Just a quick point here, transfiguration requires a wand, where as an animagus shape-shifts without the help of anything external. Think about Wormtail, when he escaped in POA he bcame a rat again and did not have a wand.
SnarkologyMajor
08-01-2006, 02:24
That's a great point TFN:D Wandless magic and non-verbal spells are pretty much key in HBP aren't they? I still say a switching spell is a possibility here, I sure wish we had a little more info. on how a switching spell works. Maybe she gave it to us and it's hidden in the words-I'll have to hunt around a bit:D
GREAT reasoning! Actually quite comforting for those of us who prefer that Dumbledor plays a significant part in Book 7. A question -- How can Dumbledor appear in a portrait in the headmaster's room if he is still alive?
One suggestion has been that the portraits in the headmaster's office come--not with the death of the headmaster--but with the headmaster's resignation. And that's what DD did with his mysterious five minutes.
But it could also be this way: paintings in the magic world always seem to live: they move, they talk. DD could have made a portrait of himself already, or in those 5 minutes. I mean, he is a transfiguration-expert. He could do such a thing with a simple flick of his wand, couldn't he?
Yes, I'm sure DD could do that if he wished. And I believe that he'd been planning for this eventuality for some time--this was no surprise to him, just inconvenient timing.
This post has me wondering if perhaps after all there was some bookending-switching going on: Folks on another forum have wondered if there was a switch at Spinner's End...I'm thinking of it now, because I was about to write how Slughorn would have to impersonate Dumbledore to get whatever information Dumbledore needed -- the cave wouldn't happen the same w/ Slughorn at the helm (Harry wouldn't trust his motives or abilities -- look what happened when Ron was poisoned, for example) and the info collected on the tower wouldn't have been collected if Draco was pointing his wand at Slughorn instead of Dumbledore ("Dumbledore"). So: Important information is collected in Spinner's End by Snape (Snape -- or Dumbledore?) that cannot be collected by anyone other than Snape -- there's an eavesdropper (Wormtail...was it Snape after all?) -- this is especially resonant with the Dumbledore/Dursleys scene. Just going of on a random offshoot here, and I might even chuck it out the window, considering Snape makes a toast "To the Dark Lord," when Dumbledore never toasts (except when Cedric died -- oh, and the cave, but that was Slughorn ;) ).
My essay (on this topic) for the other forum is done, and I've asked permission to submit it here; will let you know, Alz. I should note that there was room to add and expand, but if I had, it would have doubled in size, and it was already pretty unwieldy.
gumshoe
ps. DOLD = lake water, very interesting; stewed slugs/green smoke -- also interesting, considering Ron's nonverbal, green "eat slugs" spell (fake AK anyone?).
You made some interesting points about swaps between characters there that I kinda like - you might have seen I started a Dumbledore/Snape thread based off comments from a friend - but another thing that got me thinking was hands - Wormtails lack of and Dumbledore's apparently burned one ... that seems to interest me when we look at all these options for swapping and changing ...
Wormtail couldn't pull off a Dumbledore impression if his life depended on it, in my opinion, and I would think the only way he'd go through with it would be if his life DID depend on it.
A Snape switch is an interesting proposition, but although I think he'd be a likelier candidate than Wormtail to swap with Dumbledore, I don't think he'd be able to maintain his composure with Harry -- no matter how much evidence stacks up to demonstrate to the reader that he's on Dumbledore's side and is protecting Harry, it seems to me he hates Harry nonetheless.
I'm still much more interested in the comparisons between Dumbledore and Slughorn's hands than any comparison between Dumbledore and Wormtail's. This book is loaded with references to Dumbledore's hands and Slughorn's, both -- the cave scene shows Dumbledore using the blackened hand with apparent ease and sensitivity, not consistent with a silver hand that can't move. Nor is that consistent with the limitations we see Dumbledore suffering earlier in the book (I refer to the moment in which Dumbledore can't remove the stopper from a memory-bottle, and resorts to using his wand, with the blackened hand, to get it open). In the cave, he seems to use his left hand for his wand at times and "senses" magic with the right -- either he's Dumbledore doing a bang-up job at stage magic, or he's Slughorn doing a great Dumbledore impression. I think, anyway.
And of course when the seventh book comes out, I'll be regretting I said any of that, as it'll turn out that Wormtail was posing as Dumbledore the whole time. ;)
Nah, I don't think so, gumshoe--I think you're right. Based on Peter's acting ability in shrieking shack, I just can't seem him doing DD.
Weasleyfanforever
30-01-2006, 22:27
To be honest, the thought that people might not have actually been themselves never crossed my mind until now but I really like it. But, it wouldn't matter who's features were similar to who's if they had taken Polyjuice potion. But then again, devil's advocate here, wouldn't the potion have faded off when the person was killed? Unless of course it is said that Snape wasn't really Snape, but someone else, which as of right now, I don't see any reason to shoot down so quickly. Might explain the look of hate on his face when he killed Dumbledore, because, and this is my own opinion, this is a complete 180 turn from how he has always been...
I think Snape's look of hatred and revulsion was because of what he thought he was doing, not how he felt about DD. Those were the exact words to describe Harry's as he fed the potion to DD in the cave.
In defense of Wormtail in this - and not a digression so apology - but Wormtail owes Harry a life debt - was living in really crappy situation since he bought Voldemort back and also the hand link ... It is a million to 1 shot and perhaps I shouldnt have raised it here - but links always interest me :p
DumbledoreLives
01-02-2006, 03:15
This is truly a great thread Gumshoe! I am impressed by your attention to details and your understanding of the integrity of the characters. Cheers! What I found really interesting is that a vast majority of everyone's theories all seem perfectly plausible. Needless to say, I can no longer read the cave chapter and those that followed without believing it is indeed Slughorn and not DD. The speculation seems so solid. The physical mannerisms, the use of specific phrases, all point to Slughorn.
However, although I can believe that it's Slughorn in the cave, I'm having a hard time being convinced that DD would allow anyone to stand in for him, knowing that it would culminate in his staged death, something could have gone wrong. Malfoy may have accidently let the AK fly. So I'm trying to find ways in which Slughorn could have included himself in the plan that was supposed to only be between DD and Snape. I think he was looking for ways to make up for his past mistakes and I suspect he may have somehow found out 'the plan' from Snape and that DD was not aware that Sluggy knew about it and was planning a switcheroo. Since Sluggy is a metamorphmagus, he could have infiltrated DD's office during HP's private lessons, maybe even tagged along when DD left the grounds - so he knew where the cave was. Or it could be possible that he had his own collection of portraits of some of the previous headmasters who could have been feeding him information. Then when DD asked Harry to meet him at the front doors with his invisibility cloak, he could have come by for some 'crisis', then when DD offers a drink Sluggy could have given DD the Draught of Living Death and tucked him away somewhere safe (weak spec -still working on that part).:o
Then when it came time for the "Snape kills DD" part on the tower, which was part of the Snape-DD plan, Sluggy asks/begs Snape to complete the act. I do like the spec that the AK seems off, like one spell is 'said', but maybe another one is meant - like wingardium leviosa (?). Then when he hit the ground he could have dressed a twig in DD's robes and transfigured it to look like DD. Another possibility is that Sluggy has Fawkes with him, hidden under his robes or waist coat, poised to eat another AK as he did to protect DD during the fight at the ministry, in OOTP. (Although Fawkes turns back into a baby after consuming the AK, do we know how long it takes Fawkes to 'mature'? Is it clear whether a baby Fawkes has all the abilities as matured Fawkes? i.e. Phoenix song, flight?
Regarding the portraits in the Headmaster's office. Could the portraits have been painted when a new headmaster assumes the title/office, wait around to be hung and then wake up only when that headmaster dies? I was thinking that since the house elves do practically everything else, they may have gotten word that DD was 'dead' and hung the portrait, as they usually do when a headmaster dies. This could explain why DD's portrait is still snoozing - DD isn't deceased.
I think Sluggy's behavior in the headmaster's office is very telling. It screams that he was doing something physical, but he was nowhere to be found when the DE's and the OOTP and DA were fighting.
Finally, it's off topic, but I think Snape has always remained loyal to DD and palyed his role as loyal DE/Voldy Spy with great reluctance. And I believe the real locket that HP and DD/Sluggy sest out to recover at the cave has always been at Grimmauld Place amongst the things Kreacher is hording.
Huge stretches, I know, but it kinda fits with my belief that DD is alive, DD didn't want to put anyone in jeopardy - Snape, Sluggy. The dialogue in the cave is all Sluggy talk. Plus I can't imagine the circumstances that would make DD say those things after drinking the potion - "It's all my fault...I know I did wrong..." Sounds totally Sluggy.
HarryPotterFreak13
01-02-2006, 18:51
We’ve all read the Mugglenet/Leaky interview by now, and are aware that JK has confirmed that “the wise old wizard with the beard dies;” however, like many others, I am stuck on the “when and how.” I don’t feel convinced that Dumbledore died on the Tower that night. The end of HBP was written so deliberately it almost seems impossible to accept the death, and yet it’s the same deliberation that has convinced those in the other camp that Dumbledore is undeniably dead.
Anyhow, I’ve familiarized myself with some of the theories making the circuits out there, and none have touched on something I think is possible – not irrefutable, but possible: that Slughorn could have stood in for Dumbledore that night. There were scads of details that led me to draw this fantastic conclusion, long before I could assign any motive or higher meaning to it, and because of this problem, I’m not entirely convinced, but I want to share it with you all in the hopes that you’ll take it seriously with an attitude of “all in good fun,” as that is how I’m approaching it. (I’m also considering the possibility that Slughorn helped Dumbledore fake his death on the Tower, whether Dumbledore was a willing participant or not, but for the sake of this post, I’m including all the bits from the cave that puzzled me.)
In this post I’ll list the things that indicated to me that perhaps Slughorn had Transfigured himself into appearing to be Dumbledore. In another post or as this starter evolves into a conversation, I’ll speculate as to why it might have happened and share some bits I found that could contradict this wild speculation.
All quotes American edition.
1) Stand-out dialogue from Dumbledore:
P. 570, “I am much older, much cleverer, and much less valuable.” And p. 559, “Your blood is worth more than mine.” Value seems to be Slughorn's rating system, not Dumbledore's.
P. 564-5 (the boat): “I do not think you will count, Harry. You are underage and unqualified. Voldemort would never have expected a sixteen year old to reach this place: I think it unlikely that your powers will register compared to mine...Voldemort’s mistake, Harry, Voldemort’s mistake…Age is foolish and forgetful when it underestimates youth.” Dumbledore has told Harry he has done a “grown Wizard’s task,” that he’s exceptional and extraordinary. Now this? Slughorn could say this, regretting that he underestimated Tom Riddle. (Also the repeated phrase.)
“I taught Tom Riddle. I know his style.” (Dumbledore and Slughorn both have extensive experience with TR.)
P. 563: “Oho!” Slughorn catchphrase. We’ve heard Filch say this before too, and Fudge in OoP, and Vernon in OoP. Not Dumbledore.
“That potion…was no health drink…”
“my dear boy” 585, 591
“Oh, weaker resistance, slower reflexes…Old age in short…if you are lucky.” p. 594 (I remember Slughorn's conversation with Dumbledore in ch. 4).
Repeated phrases:
“Voldemort’s mistake, Harry, Voldemort’s mistake…”
“You did very well, very well, Harry…”
“Draco, Draco, you are not a killer.”
“A clever plan, a very clever plan”
“Yes, very neat…very neat…”
“No, no, these are manners.”
2) Dumbledore doesn’t toast (in HBP), Slughorn does.
The only time Slughorn doesn’t toast is when Dumbledore and Harry arrive at his house and he grudgingly serves drinks, resisting Dumbledore’s temptation. Dumbledore asks the students to raise their glasses, "to Cedric Diggory," in GoF; otherwise, the closest thing I could find to a toast from Dumbledore in HBP was this: “’Madam Rosmerta’s finest oak-matured mead,’ said Dumbledore, raising his glass to Harry, who caught hold of his own and sipped.” (p. 48) Dumbledore doesn’t speak. On p. 265: Mrs. Cole poured both of them a “generous measure,” and “she drained her own glass in one gulp.” Again, no dialogue from Dumbledore. Then, p. 570, Dumbledore in cave: “Your good health, Harry.”
Compare to Slughorn, who toasts regularly:
P. 481: “We’ll drink the poor beast’s – well – not health – but we’ll send it off in style, anyway, once it’s buried.”
P. 485, “to Aragog,” then on p. 487, “After an hour or so...Hagrid and Slughorn began making extravagant toasts: to Hogwarts, to Dumbledore, to elf-made wine, and to – ‘Harry Potter,’ bellowed Hagrid.” Slughorn pockets unicorn hair with cries of “To friendship! To generosity! To ten Galleons a hair!”
P. 397: Well, a very happy birthday, Ralph…and may you have many more.”
3) Dumbledore forgets that Harry is standing behind him, dripping wet and freezing, p.558: “Harry, I’m so sorry, I forgot.” He points his wand at Harry, and “Harry’s clothes were as warm and dry as if they had been hanging in front of a blazing fire.” Slughorn warmed himself before the fire in his first scene (p. 69). Would Dumbledore forget Harry? Or is Dumbledore dry, perhaps wearing a Weasleys WW Shield Cloak?
4) Before they leave for the cave, Dumbledore sends Harry to get his invisibility cloak, although he should have expected Harry to already have it. He tells Harry to meet him in the Great Hall in five minutes; this gives Harry time to give the Felix to his friends, but considering Dumbledore initiated this unusual action, what function does it serve him? Is it for Harry's benefit (possibly), or does he need the five minutes himself? Is the Dumbledore Harry meets in the Great Hall actually Slughorn?
Dumbledore’s opening scene with Harry is framed by two impostor checks. First, he admonishes Harry for assuming Dumbledore is indeed himself (raspberry jam). Then we see a person who can appear to be something other than himself (Slughorn chair). Then when Dumbledore leaves the Weasleys’, Arthur insists on impostor checking (Mollywobbles and airplanes). Despite this, Harry never does an impostor check. (side note -- Does Dumbledore do impostor checks of Harry all year long, without Harry being the wiser?)
5) Several scenes indicating both of Slughorn’s hands – compare with scenes of Dumbledore’s hands. It’s been established that Dumbledore’s right hand is his wand hand. I think Slughorn is a lefty (possibly ambidextrous) and this is shown in chapter 4. There are three particular instances before the cave that show both of Dumbledore's hands; there are numerous images of Slughorn that note both his hands.
P. 67: Dumbledore holds out his right hand: “You’re quite right” then holds out his left, showing the ring: “On the other hand…” The ring is on the left hand, by the way, and Harry is sitting next to it – this is when Harry notices the ring. Slughorn’s attention will be drawn to the ring and Harry at once.
P. 356: “Dumbledore’s hands lay on either side of the pensieve.” (This was the only instance Harry found him in this position, two hands on the desk, when arriving for an appointment.)
P. 199: "Dumbledore was having difficulty pulling out the stopper of the crystal bottle: His injured hand seemed stiff and painful." He’s holding it in his left, trying to open it with his right. Instead of opening it with his left hand, "Dumbledore pointed his wand at the bottle and the cork flew out." This suggests to me that he'd rely on his wand before relying on his left hand.
Now Slughorn:
P. 65: “Back to back, they waved their wands in one identical sweeping motion.” This demonstrates that Slughorn is left-handed: if they were both right handed, the motion wouldn’t look identical but reversed. The image perhaps also serves as a metaphor to illuminate Dumbledore and Slughorn as equals – or as near as can be: they can “back each other up” and can do “identical” spellwork.
P. 319: “glass of mead in one hand and an enormous mince pie in the other.”
P. 369: sitting w/ feet on pouf, glass in one hand, candied pineapple in the other.
P. 490: Slughorn put his hand in his pocket and pulled out his wand. He put his other hand inside his cloak and took out a small, empty bottle.
In the cave, Dumbledore uses his hands differently than he has in the rest of the book, and even uses his left hand as his wand-hand. The sensitivity, in particular, he seems to have in that hand seems contradictory to how we’ve seen it up until now.
Pp. 557-8: Still holding his wand aloft, it must be with his left hand: he “…approached the wall of the cave and caressed it with his blackened fingertips…touching as much of the rough rock as he could…running his fingers backward and forward…finally he stopped, his hand pressed flat against the wall.”
P. 558-9: Dumbledore takes knife from robes with left hand, cuts right arm with left hand. He heals the cut using his left as his wand hand.
P. 562-3: They must be walking around the lake on the right side, because “Dumbledore’s uninjured hand closed tightly around [Harry’s] upper arm, pulling him back.” Then, “This time he was running his hand, not over the rocky wall, but through the thin air, as though expecting to find and grip something invisible…keeping his hand clenched in midair, Dumbledore raised his wand with the other and tapped his fist with the point.” He seems to be using his right hand to sense the magic, again, and his left hand for his wand.
P. 567-8: Again, he seems to be trying to touch the potion in the basin with his right and using his wand with his left. (Does he conjure the goblet with his right and catch it with his left or vice-versa?)
6) The knife Dumbledore uses to cut his arm is a Potions knife. (pp.559, 190)
7) Distinctive descriptors:
In the cave, Dumbledore’s “blue eyes turned green in the reflection of the basin.” (p. 570) Slughorn’s eyes are “gooseberry,” which is light green. (p. 67: “His pale gooseberry eyes had found Dumbledore’s injured hand.”)
P. 571: “Dumbledore panted and then spoke in a voice Harry did not recognize, for he had never heard Dumbledore frightened like this…Harry stared into the whitened face he knew so well…”
P. 580: Dumbledore’s face, “paler and damper than ever” Yes, I know he drank the horrible potion; but the language is identical to descriptions of Slughorn when he gets scared or nervous.
P. 490: “Slughorn turned paler than ever; his shiny forehead gleamed with sweat.”
P. 627: “…Slughorn, who looked the most shaken, pale and sweating.” (This one particularly interests me, because it could be that he was out there being Dumbledore or had been helping him at the Tower.)
8) If there is a gun on the mantelpiece in Act I, we’d better see it fired by the end of the play. We know Slughorn has a little vial of dragon blood from his opening scene, and although it was dusty, he was sure he’d find a use for it. It’s quite possible if he were disguised as Dumbledore, he would be able to put a bit on his mouth to look dead. (This is a useful tidbit whether or not Slughorn impersonated Dumbledore.)
9) It’s Dumbledore’s goblet; why does it keep emptying when Harry fills it (Aguamenti)? My suspicion is he needs Harry to turn his back to get water for some reason.
10) Compare how Ron reacts to being poisoned with how Dumbledore reacts to the potion in the cave.
P. 398: Ron “crumpled, his extremities jerking uncontrollably. Foam was dribbling from his mouth, and his eyes were bulging from their sockets…Ron twitched and choked: His skin was turning blue…the sound of Ron’s gargling breath filled the room.” (This seems to be poison, and it seems the potion Dumbledore drank isn’t.)
Harry gave Ron the bezoar, and “Ron gave a great shudder, a rattling gasp, and his body became limp and still.”
pp. 573-4: after finishing all the potion, Dumbledore, “with a great rattling gasp, rolled over onto his face.” Then Harry “heaved him over onto his back; Dumbledore’s glasses were askew, his mouth agape, his eyes closed.” Ron’s reaction to the bezoar is almost identical to Dumbledore’s reaction upon drinking the last goblet of potion. Why?
11) “You are with me,” compared with, “I am with you.” Is this a cuddly remembrance moment or is it true (ie, if it is Slughorn, he does feel safe knowing he’s with Harry, the Chosen One)?
Even if this turns out to be a dead end, I think the process of speculation can be fruitful. What do you folks think?
gumshoe
I agree!!but its weird i was just reading a theory that was sayin almost the same thing!!! MAn that was alot of reserch!!
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