Pouring Soul?

[Alz]

Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her ...'

Well - in HBP we found out what was up with the Diary and also souls .. but this raises a few questions to me ...

Why would the diary try putting it's soul in Ginny?
She was to die so that Riddle could live ... why kill something you were making almost into a Horcrux?

He said powerful enough to start feeding Ginny a few of his secrets, I wonder if by feeding her secrets he meant feed her his soul - afterall he thought his Horcruxes were a secret.

Given all we are to assume about Horcruxes - is it possible to move your soul from one object to the next?
In this scenario that was what was happening, according to Tom.

Was the Riddle Horcrux aware that is was a Horcrux - did it know that it would need to re-birth from Ginny?

Going to exist rather than used - this would seem like a used scenario - as in the soul piece inserted into the diary was using itself to attach to Ginny and cause a re-birth from her demise.
If it was just exist - why would it try and place this soul into Ginny - it should just exist and try and sustain the 'spritual remains' of Voldemort that was hanging around some place.

What can we work out about the mannerisms of a Horcrux based on the use of it in this scenario?

[Hermione]

One point I want to make, I think it is note worthy that it chose Ginny to use to rebirth itself. Though Lucus Malfoy gave Ginny the diary, it could have told her to go to some loyal pureblood and she would have obeyed. But I think it's interesting that he chose to use the daughter of known blood traitors.

[Sirius Potter Fan]

First Blaise. . . You just don't give up do you!!! :D ;)

Now siriusly, ;) I believe that the diary was a very unique circumstance that unintentionaly became what it did. When the bit of soul was placed into an already enchanted object, an object enchanted to contain the memories of Riddle himself, and thereby "knowldege" if you will, of Riddle's ambitions and intentions, an unexpected reaction took place. The soul was able to access the memories, the memories now had a living soul, and together they became "concious". With Giny's (or anyone else who would have used it) use, it learned that it's true self had in essence been destroyed, and sought a way to revive itself. The ability of the diary to transmit it's memories to another being, gave it the ability to transfer it's piece of soul as well. Again, I believe this a very unique and unintentional happening. The book realized that it could not only Instruct someone in how to open the chamber, but by this happenstance could actually posses that person.

As far as used/exist goes in this instance, it is still exist. The purpose of a Horcrux is to maintain the existance of the soul on this plane of existance, and as long as one bit exists here it maintains the rest on this plane, though not necessarily in a desirable form (as in Voldemort's rudimentary existance). Even though this bit of soul had transfered itself to another being through the unique circumstance of the diary, it still existed, and as such was still serving its purpose. In order to have been "used" in the sense implied in the used/exist debate, it would have had to have been destroyed in the process or recreating Riddle/Voldemort, or once successful, replaced, instantaniously the already existing form of Voldemort, (in other words, both could have "existed" simultaniously) which didn't happen, and I don't believe would have.

The Horcrux in the diary became "sentient" if you will, from an unexpected occurance, and containing the ambition of Voldemort, seeing that it's "true" self was weak sought to gain physical form as it's "true" self had not been able to. What may or may not have happened after that is in another thread :D

In conclusion, I believe that this was an unintentional "bonus" that occured in this instance, and is not an option with the other existing Horcruxes, as the same circumstances do not exist.

[Alz]

Ummm - unique - *yawn* :rolleyes:
What is to say that all Horcruxes aren't unique in protection - does that detract away from the mechanisms in which it works - nope ;)

The soul was pouring into Ginny - who would die at the end of the process in order that the Diary Riddle could take form and live.
Ergo, isnt it most likely that the soul placed into Ginny would die also?
That is the point it becomes interesting - when looking at this if it played through :D
But maybe just as important - can a soul piece transfer from it's object that was formed to make it a Horcrux - seems so in this scenario ...
It goes a littlw towards helping if Harry is a Horcrux - and how he might live past having to destroy all the Horcruxes :D

[Tonks]

See, we know Voldemort possessed Ginny for a period of time - during which she strangled the school roosters and wrote the message outside Myrtle's bathroom - but I don't know if he ever planned for her to turn into one of his Horcruxes.

I was under the impression that when he said he was giving her back some of his secrets and pouring some of himself back into her, it was more of that the Horcrux soul was getting ready to possess her for some time and try to continue Slytherin's work again than trying to make her into a Horcrux..

[Alz]

But here lies my argument on this one ...
Ginny was to die so that the Diary Riddle could live - she was fading and as she did he became more whole.
If he was pouring his soul into her - she would die at the end - ergo so would the soul?
But of course - as she faded the spirtiual Riddle gained form and life ... so what exactly was the soul's part in this?
I think here lies distorted what happens when the diary was both a horcrux and also a weapon - the weapon aspect was trying to transfer it's soul into her - but the horcrux side was either giving life to the spirit - or was just in exist mode ... either way the actions seem equal and opposit in effect.
I wonder if there was a reason to why this Horcrux did this and perhaps JKR was showing us something ...?

[gumshoe]

Blaise, I think you're really onto something.

Are you thinking that he intentionally planned for the Horcrux bits to take over a person, to come to life, in order to replicate himself? I can see it, but wouldn't he have thought of the possibility that those bits would want to be #1 and thus would end up being a threat to him personally?

Like Sirius Potter Fan, I really thought it went like this: its purpose as a weapon was to continue purging the WW of Muggleborns and Half-Bloods; its purpose as a Horcrux was to allow his soul to exist. So the pouring part, I think was possession intended by Voldemort when he made the diary; I think the draining Ginny of life part was the Horcrux acting of its own accord to give itself life.

I don't think Voldemort banked on his soul residing in the diary changing tactics. I think maybe he intended it to possess whoever had it and force them to do its will, but the diary, housing a piece of soul, had a will of its own, and that will is the same as Voldemort's: to live on its own and be supremely powerful.

However, I think it would be much more interesting if the purpose was for the Horcrux pieces to be used -- for them to pour themselves into whoever was holding them, and the ring thing would have a new layer of danger! But then again, once those pieces were in someone else, they'd be thinking on their own, and wouldn't be within Voldemort's control.

gumshoe

[Tonks]

Well, I'm sort of lost as to why he was becoming much more whole as she was losing strength, but here's a bit of information on possession that explains why she was going to die..
GoF - Ch. 33: The Death Eaters - US version p. 653-654
"Only one power remained to me. I could possess the bodies of others. But I dared not go where other humans were plentiful, for I knew that the Aurors were still abroad and searching for me. I sometimes inhabited animals - snakes, of course, being my preference - but I was little better off inside them than as a pure spirit, for their bodies were ill adapted to perform magic . . . and my possession of them shortened their lives; none of them lasted long. . . .
. . .
"The servant died when I left his body, and I was left as weak as ever I had been," Voldemort continued. "I returned to my hiding place far away, and I will not pretend to you that I didn't then fear that I might never regain my powers. . . . Yes, that was perhaps my darkest hour . . . I could not hope that I would be sent another wizard to possess . . . and I had given up hope, now, that any of my Death Eaters cared what had become of me. . . . "
In possessing Ginny, Tom was using up a lot of her strength as is apparently the norm when people are possessed.. and that's all I've got for right now ;)

[gumshoe]

Off the top of my head, Tonks, I'd say he was becoming more whole as she was losing strength, because that particular action wasn't possession, it was the Horcrux taking her life to make himself whole.

What do you think?

gumshoe

[Alz]

I think we shouldnt escape too far from Riddles choice of words - he stated he was pouring his soul back into Ginny ... once again this begs a few questions with regards to Riddle/Voldemort and implanting pieces of himself in living objects right?
If he could pour his soul into Ginny - he would have possession - but then she was destine to die so that he could gain form and live ... this would also suggest a strange thing for Riddle to say considering the longterm picture.
This would once again ask questions of the abilities and outcomes of placing one soul into a living object.
From Ginny - Riddle gained strength - his initial reactions were to possess her - and maybe this was the extent of Riddles mind - but the soul piece- the horcrux actually was performing a task that Riddle wasnt aware of - I dont think he thought for a second that what he was is a piece of his own soul.
As such - more questions - because we are all assuming that Riddle found out about Horcruxes and also created his first one while at Hogwarts - how come this piece of him seemed unaware of this?

[gumshoe]

Alz, you say perhaps we shouldn't stray too far from Riddle's choice of words, and I agree, but the point here may be that he was "pouring a bit of his soul" into her during the possessions, and reclaiming it afterward; and -- perhaps the draining of Ginny's life we were witness to in the Chamber wasn't "pouring soul" but "drinking life."
?...
And overall, I really do think that this does indicate that the Horcruxes can move about or be moved. But what was unique in this circumstance is this particular Horcrux had a self, with built-in objectives.
It might be that this could stoke your Harry/Horcrux fire; if there is a bit of Voldemort's soul in Harry, the self it is informed by is Harry. What would happen to Voldemort if he were to reabsorb a soul-bit that had lived with Harry for 16/17 years? Did we get a taste of that in the Ministry/possession scene?

And the Horcrux not being aware it was a Horcrux: My thought is that Riddle made the diary, and then afterward made it a Horcrux. If that is the case, the diary might be using the term "pouring soul" loosely.
A point that may contradict this is that diary-Tom is not wearing the ring (which could indicate he'd made the Horcruxes prior to storing the memory of himself in the diary); however, that could be inverted to suggest that he made the diary, then killed his father and grandparents, then had the afterthought of making the diary into a Horcrux.
In which case, I think it's most likely that the diary didn't initially know it was a Horcrux, but after realizing it was, decided to use that to its advantage and resurrect itself, for itself, instead of just serving whatever purpose Voldemort may have wanted or may eventually want. It stands to reason, seeing how Voldemort answers to no one.

gumshoe