Harry is a Horcrux! [Archive] - The Final Horcrux

gumshoe

27-09-2005, 09:38

I just yesterday posted this same point on another board. The response was that the diary didn't have other protections on it, that it was different. It was in Lucius' care and thus needed no protection. I didn't agree with the response, but since the topic at hand wasn't "Horcruxes," I didn't fight back.

Just because it's in Lucius' care doesn't negate added magical protections on it. What if Dumbledore or Ginny decided to stab it through its papery heart with a fang? Would they find their extremeties dying like Dumbledore's hand or would they just kill it? I think it would zap them, because nothing happened to Dumbledore upon finding the ring; it was when he attempted to destroy it that he was cursed.

It makes me think that Harry/Horcrux is a likelihood, and at least that Dumbledore thinks so, because he chooses the course of private study to focus on Horcrux identification (can we assume that he hoped to show Harry how to destroy them, or does he believe, perhaps, that Harry will "know" how as he did before?)

And of course I like it even more, because of what I've said about Slughorn perhaps wanting to protect Harry from Dumbledore, if he thinks that Dumbledore believes Harry to be a Horcrux.

So you've got my support.
gumshoe

Weasleyfanforever

27-09-2005, 10:50

I'm not sure what it is about this theory, but it just doesn't sit right with me.

We know that the ring killed Dumbledore's hand when he destroyed it, or when he came in posession of it. We also know that the potion made him very sick, but we're not sure that it in fact would have killed him. He obviously thought that it might, but he also thought that someone could cure it, that person being Severus Snape. So, if the potion was curable, it would have been a pretty strong protection, unless of course you knew a good potions master.

But, if Harry had tried to destroy any of these horcruxes, like he did with the diary, would he have been harmed? Maybe. He might've had a shrivelled up hand like Dumbledore, and he might've died from the potion, but I doubt it. We know that one must die at the hand of the other. The ring killed Dumbledore's hand, not Dumbledore himself, so I could see Harry incurring that injury as well. If the potion was meant to kill slowly, I don't think it would have killed Harry.

Why? Because as we know, it would have to be Voldemort that killed Harry, and I don't think that it was Voldemort that made the potion, I believe it was Snape.

So far, this has nothing to do with Harry being a Horcrux, because it is just speculation, but really, all we have is speculation, right? ;)

So, Harry destroys the diary, and he is not harmed. He killed a part of Voldemort, and this leads some to believe that because he wasn't harmed, he is a horcrux. In truth, he was harmed, and should have and would have died, had it not been for Fawkes. We are not sure about how Dumbledore was injured destroying or getting the ring, just that he was. But we do know that the "horcrux" in the cave is not what did the actual damage, it was the potion that did. So we have one horcrux that may have caused harm, and one that did not, possibly because it wasn't the real horcrux, we do not know.

My point is, how do we know that destroying a horcrux will cause any damage, once you are past the protections? we don't.

Also, with all the divulging of information that happened in HBP, and Harry finally knowing the full prophecy from Dumbledore himself, why wouldn't Dumbledore tell him if he had even an inkling that Harry was a Horcrux?

Boing

27-09-2005, 12:50

I don't know about the reasoning/evidence behind the theory, but I have always thought that Harry was a horcrux as well. I really have no evidence to support the theory, but just the gut feeling that it is true.

I posted a thread back on MP about this before HBP came out to the effect of Voldemort having split himself into three parts, one of which was in Nagini, one in Harry, and one in Voldemort. The reasoning I used back then was that the prophecy indicated that "neither can live while the other survives" and I interpreted this as meaning that neither could truly "live" and become a full self while the other one survived. So, in Harry's case, because he has a piece of Voldemort in himself, he can't become a whole person and live while Voldemort is alive and Voldemort can't fully live while Harry is around because a piece of him is in Harry.

Don't know if that will sway anyone, but it's another thought.

Alz

28-09-2005, 11:33

The premise actually does make sense - it is about expanding your horizon's - suppose that is why this is wild spec ... closed minds not welcome :D

I think that each and everyone of those Horcruxes would have a final sting in the tail - something to prevent a person destroying them - afterall doesnt it make sense you save the best till last?
I stand by it - Harry may have been dying - but the Horcrux wasnt suppose to keep him alive - that will be Voldemort ... as such his closeness to demise has no bearing on this.
What is evident was that Harry was able to destroy that horcrux with no ill effects - and given he has to do this a few more times - doesnt it make sense that perhaps Harry will not be hurt like Dumbledore was when he finally gets his hands on each one?

Like it or not - wild spec - that is the get out clause ;)

gumshoe

28-09-2005, 19:01

Orion

28-09-2005, 20:51

kashlie

28-09-2005, 21:10

I am supportive of the idea of Harry being a Horcrux. They are too important for him not to be directly related to them.

The only problem I have (well, okay, one OTHER problem) is WHEN would Voldemort have made Harry a Horcrux?
Was it not a AK that Harry survived, but in fact the spell to turn him into a Horcrux?
My theory of what happened at Godric's Hollow is this -
Voldemort went alone, intending on killing James and making Harry a Horcrux. Lily had to be kept alive to look after the boy, because I believe Vokdemort would not have left his Horcrux in an orphanage.
He killed James, but then Lily wouldn't step aside. He had to kill her to get to Harry, probably thinking very fast about where Harry would live.
He casts the spell on Harry to start the process of making him a Horcrux,(i am thinking he was up to the protection spells - one that would cause an explosion, perhaps?) but baby Harry was now the chosen one, and using the powers he inherited - (something to do with Lily's eyes), he causes the spell to backfire, scarring himself, and ripping Voldemort from his body, destroying the house...

so he managed to make Harry a Horcrux, and Harry is somehow protected by his mother's love, even combined with Horcrux protetion spells...

how does that sound? confusing?

Orion

28-09-2005, 22:00

Voldemort tried to killed Harry, he cast the AK spell on him but failed as we all know because of the protection his mother gave him. and voldemort didn't die because there were still other horcruxes.

Voldemort didn't cast the horcrux spell on harry but the AK so how can anyone become a horcrux if they are trying to kill him instead?

I just don't think Harry can be a Horcrux, even though I think about it in the beginning

Flash

29-09-2005, 11:29

I was also thinking about Voldemort not actually using the AK on Harry. We all know Harry has been deemed "The Boy Who Lived" but it would be a nice ironic twist if he wasn't, but moreso "The Boy Who Was Cursed...". Anyway, I think that Voldemort tried to kill Harry (assuming he was made into a horcrux) because he realized eventually Harry was going to find the truth out and would come after him and he thought he could easily avoid Harry destroying all the other horcruxes and you know, the only one can surivive buisness, allows Harry to destroy that part of him while still "surviving" .

Weasleyfanforever

30-09-2005, 09:07

Weasleyfanforever, what was killing Harry in the Chamber was the basilisk's venom, not the diary. And I too wonder what exactly did the damage to Dumbledore? Was it the protections in the area of the Horcrux or was it the protections on the Horcrux itself when he destroyed it?

That actually was my point, that we don't know if it is a horcrux or jus the protections over it that do any damage.

Anyways, I was thinking about this, and I was wondering; In Voldemort's state after Harry was hit with AK, would he have been able to create a horcrux? I have inferred so far that it is very dark magic, therefore it would take a little bit of time and an immense amount of energy, neither of which Voldemort had after attempting to kill Harry. I suppose one could argue that Voldemort would have planned to use either Lily or James as the murder to create the Horcrux, but again, we can infer that he uses "important" deaths to create them, and what would have been more important than the boy that had been prophecised about?

I think if he was planning on using Harry as a Horcrux, it didn't happen because of the effects of the AK curse, Voldemort had nothing left to him, he said he was less than the meanest ghost, I highly doubt he could have performed a complex curse.

Another thing that bothers me here is the timeline of events. I don't have the exact wording, but we know that Harry has had "visions" from the dementors about that night, and nothing ever suggested that he tried to perform anything other than AK...

OK, I had to edit this in after reading it again:

"You are protected, in short, by your ability to love!" said Dumbledore loudly. "The only protection that can possibly work against the lure of power like Voldemort's! In spite of all the temptation you have endured, all the suffering, you remain pure of heart, just as pure as you were at the age of eleven, when you stared into a mirror that reflected your heart's desire, and it showed you only the way to thwart Lord Voldemort, and not immortality or riches. Harry, have you any idea how few wizards could have seen what you saw in that mirror? Voldemort should have known then what he was dealing with, but he did not! But he knows it now. You have flitted into Lord Voldemort's mind without damage to yourself, but he cannot possess you without enduring mortal agony, as he discovered in the Ministry. I do not think he understands why, Harry, but then, he was in such a hurry to mutilate his own soul, he never paused to understand the incomparable power of a soul that is untarnished and whole."

Why I find this important is because, if in fact Harry were a horcrux, his soul wouldn't be untarnished. He would be housing a part of Voldemort's soul, and I wouldn't think that you would be able to hold more than one soul at a time. I'm sure the argument could be that it is believed that Nagini is a horcrux, but again that goes into discussion as to whether you believe animals have souls of their own. I don't know if it has been pointed out, but all of Voldemort's horcruxes, with the exception of Nagini, have been inanimate objects...

Alz

02-10-2005, 10:21

Harry is without doubt holding something of Voldemort inside him - even Dumbledore touched upon this.
Harry has always had the curse of Voldemort inside him - I mean even the sorting hat saw it and could also explain how he met up with the brother wand.
What I am suggesting is all the times JKR said about Harry looking like Tom, Harry being connected to Tom, his unique powers and abilities leaves me with no doubts he is connected to Tom - but it is the matter of the connection that makes me think he might be a Horcrux.

halliemei

07-10-2005, 16:25

I'm going to jump into this whole "Harry is a Horcrux" discussion because I have a theory of sorts on it.

In book 6, we're introduced to some new magic. First, the Unbreakable Vow. Second, horcruxes. Third, inventing spells.

We don't know how the Unbreakable Vow thing is going to play back here (maybe not at all, but I think many of us think it's related to why DD trusts SS).

But, horcruxes become the big mystery. I think inventing spells is related to it.

We have evidence in the Prince's potions book that spells can be invented. And apparently, Snape did so. See US pg 604 "Flight of the Prince"

"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them -- I , the Half-Blood Prince!" And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so . . . no!"

Keep in mind that for many years Snape was definitely a DE (we'll ignore the argument about "present day". Snape was possibly as close to a right-hand to VM as possible, though the cannon is sketchy on that. But, it is clear that VM was/is considered more talented and powerful than Snape. If Snape could invent spells (which it seems at least Levicorpus and possibly Sectumsempra he invented), why can't VM?

Put that together with the LITTLE bit we got from Slughorn's REAL memory on how horcruxes are made (pg 498, US)

"Encase? But how --?"
"There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" said Slughorn, shaking his head like an old elephant bothered by mosquitoes. "Do I look as though I have tried it -- do I look like a killer?"

So there's a spell. It's safe to assume that you would either do the spell then kill or kill then do the spell. I don't know that you could "save it up", but I suppose it is possible. It does seem that way if Tom had already killed his father.

We also know that DD believed that Harry was to be the sixth horcrux (pg 506, US).

"He seems to have reserved the process for making Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths. You would certainly have been that. He believed that in killing you, he was destroying the danger the prophesy had outlined. He believed he was making himself invincible. I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death.

As we know, he failed. . . . ."

Then DD goes on to theorize that when Nagini was used to kill the old man that his death made him realize that he could use her to be last horcrux. That would seem to undermine the possiblity of Harry being a horcrux -- even if inadvertent or accidental. Except that in her interview with Emerson and Melissa (part 3), JKR remarked:

MA: Here at the end you sort of get the feeling that we know what Harry’s setting out to do, but can this really be the entire throughline of the rest of the story?

JKR: It's not all of it. Obviously it's not all of it, but still, that is the way to kill Voldemort. That's not to say it won't be extremely an torturous and winding journey, but that's what he's got to do. Harry now knows — well he believe he knows – what he’s facing. Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don't want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, ‘There are four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go for Voldemort.’ So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to do.

"Never very far wide of the mark." But that doesn't say he's always EXACTLY right. Actually, it's probably not QUITE right. I think that's the crux of the argument.

My theory . . . VM didn't like going through the whole Horcrux/AK thing every time he wanted a horcrux, so he invented a spell that combined them. That's how the "accidental" horcrux thing happened. If it required preparation or after-work, it wouldn't really work here because VM had not been to GH before and he didn't really have time to do it after. It would necessitate "storing" the part of the soul for the horcrux for Nagini to have been made one after the attack on the muggle. That's not necessarily in cannon.

Two other things . . . From part 2 of the interview:

ES: Has the sorting hat ever been wrong?

JKR: No.

ES: Really?

JKR: Mm-mm. Do you have a theory?

ES: I have heard a lot of theories.

JKR: [laugh] I bet you have. No. [laugh] Sorry.

MA: That's interesting, because that would suggest that the voice comes more from a person's own head than the hat itself -

JKR: [makes mysterious noise]

MA: And that maybe when it talks on its own it comes from -

JKR: The founders themselves.

Wow! So, the voice you hear before it announces "Gryffindor" comes from inside your head? Hmmm . . . so there's more to the whole "part of him in you" thing I think. Harry was telling himself he'd do well in Slytherin. Sounds like Tom to me. That doesn't jibe with just leaving part of his talent in Harry.

And, last but not least, DD assumes Nagini is the horcrux and Harry asks (pg 306, US)

"The snake?" said Harry, startled. "You can use animals as horcruxes?"
"Well, it is inadvisable to do so," said Dumbledore, "becasue to confide a part of your soul to something that can think and move for itself is obviously very risky business."

First off (we all know), humans are animals. And Harry can certainly think and move for himself.

Any thoughts?

Alz

08-10-2005, 00:44

*Claps loudly!!!!*
That was a pretty awesome round up there - maximum credit to you!

I would also like to point out the Dumbledore versus truth/mistake was also well covered by JKR in HBP - he himself also declared he might be wrong on some parts of what followed based on him having to step into the realms of speculation and guesswork ... I have a thread covering this but I feel JKR put the 'get out of jail' free card there so that she can twist Dumbledore's assumptions - and yes I would attribute that to Harry being a Horcrux.

The Sorting hat part is interesting as well - if indeed it is a person speaking via the hat - we know that the night of the attack Harry received something from Voldemort - Dumbledore just assumed it to be powers but given the Hocruxes theory - you can see the implications now.
I am racking my brains back to the writings about the fateful night - we know that Harry heard AK - but this could just so easily have been the AK cast at his mother - what Harry seems to observe is a green light - if you are correct, and for the record I think you might be, Voldemort has adapted AK with some extra's to seal a Horcrux - Harry would observe a green light but the load of the spell could be in question ...

Great post halliemei

Vestral

17-10-2005, 19:47

HallieMei...
I found you over here !!! I'm really liking these new digs, and the discussions do seem much more "mature". Great ideas by the way to you, HallieMei. I too believe that Harry, or at least his scar, is a Horcrux.
I'll talk to you at work tomorrow.

I am very new to this thread, but not to HP speculation. I thought I'd throw in a few knuts of my own.
I believe that redemption is a major theme, if not the main theme of the whole series.

Dumbledore's habit of seeing the good in people and giving them second chances is critical to the plot, and Harry is learning, and has learned that nobody is perfect... even his parents. We all make mistakes... it is our choices that make us who we are.

It very well may be that Snape will convince Draco to turn against his father and Voldemort to help him relay information to Harry and the Order through school. Harry will have to learn to trust Draco and Snape, which Voldemort will not be able to understand.
In the end, I think Harry will even "vanquish" the Dark Lord, but redeem Tom Riddle.

Dumbledore is not entirely correct about the quality that Harry has... that Lily had... that fills that room in the DOM... that Voldemort does not have, nor does he understand...

It's not just love...

it's COMPASSION.

Oops... I got a bit off-topic on this one...sorry, I'm new.

"He put a bit of himself in me?" -Harry
"It certainly seems so." -Dumbledore (COS pg 333 American PB)

I think Harry is carrying around a bit of Voldy's soul, encased in the scar tissue on his forehead, as an accidental horcrux.

Dumbledore and others have said that they do not know how Harry survived because he is the only one known to have ever survived the Avada Kedavra curse. But we are ASSUMING that it was AK that was used. I'm with halliemei that it might have been a different, or modified version of AK to include an automatic horcrux creation after the intended murder. Lily, being the gifted witch she was, sacrificed herself, and somehow through a very effective charm or just the sacrificial act itself, caused the killing spell to go awry.

Voldemort got the killing part of the spell which nearly did kill him, but Harry got something very much by accident...
he got the horcrux part of the spell imbedded in his forehead. And what's more interesting is that it was probably the part of Voldy's soul that was torn by the murder of his mother, Lily. A very special horcrux to boot.

god is broke

19-10-2005, 10:59

i am of two mind about harry being a horcux. i originally thoght harry couldn't be a horcux and this is why. it was said he could be a horcux because he didn't get hurt when he destroyed tom's dariy, this in my opion is because it was vold's first horcux and didn't have and spells protecting it. plus when going though memorys about voldy you could see he had an obsession with objects from the hogwarts founders. dumbdore said the last horcux is likely something from ravenclaw or gryffindor. but after listen to eveything, i have to admit it is very compelling and is enough to give it some thought. although deep down in my heart i don't think harry is a horcux.

Alz

19-10-2005, 11:39

As Vestral so well pointed out - Harry does have some of Voldemort in him - that is a fact.
Up to HBP - we always assumed that was a by-product of the attack that saw Voldemort ripped from his body - but after what we learnt in HBP - you can see another angle to this - the one that slants towards these 'links' Harry has to Voldemort wasnt just he absorbed some of his power - he actually absorbed a piece of Voldemort himself ... and thus the theory of Harry being a horcrux.

Vestral

20-10-2005, 18:26

I think that the Diary Horcrux didn't have a protective curse on it because Voldemort intended for someone to open it and discover that it had been Tom Riddle who opened the Chamber of Secrets, and it was he who is Slytherin's heir.
You can't expect someone to work out how the Diary works and all, and curse them at the same time when they touch the Diary. Also, by the time Harry destroys the Diary, Tom Riddle ( the memory/soul ) was apparently out of the Diary itself, or at least most of the way physically, and I guess because the process had not been completed for him to drain all of the life force out of Ginny, the Horcrux object itself... the diary... was vulnerable. We just don't know enough about Horcruxes, again... and specifically, this unique Diary version.

kashlie

20-10-2005, 21:47

You know, the protective spell on the diary could have been the fact that it could control the person writing in it...eventually consuming their soul, killing them. it was just a long and slow process, rather than quick or painful like the other protective spells seemed to be.

god is broke

21-10-2005, 04:55

but if the person knew about the diary being a horcux, then the protection wouldn't work. it could only take over you if you wrote in it. if you don't write in it then doesn't have any power. i think that the diary was voldy's first horcux, and beeing that he planned to make more he thought that the diary wouldn't need protection compaired to his other ones. the diary is so normal for voldy that you wouldn't think it was a horcux at first. that could have been protction enough for him.

Alz

21-10-2005, 11:45

OK - we have a thread that touches on the subject of the Diary - as in that is appears it was used as a weapon first then made into a Horcrux.
I think if you search out that thread you will be able to expand your thoughts in there - in fact I would love to see them!

http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1385

Vestral

26-10-2005, 19:53

Sorry... Didn't mean to get off on a discussion about the Diary, but I think knowing what the other Horcruxes are and knowing how the ones we have seen actually work (or should I say react to being destroyed ???)
... I think is very important to seeing how Harry most likely is a Horcrux.

What I was leading up to when I started the Diary comments is that apparently, after the Diary Horcrux, it seems that at least one of the others had a curse or protective enchantment put on it. Will the other Horcruxes that Harry has to find be "boobytrapped" so Harry could be harmed like DD's hand ?

Could Harry also have this curse? I remember seeing his scar called a "curse scar" at least once.

Is this something naturally built into a Horcrux... a defensive mechanism ?

Alz

27-10-2005, 11:17

Yes - I think you are right - I think that each Horcrux has a series of protections leading to a final sting in the tail that is the object itself.
The reason I didnt want to get too much into the diary is because we have some pretty solid threads on that - but since you mention it again I am convinced that the diary was in fact ultra protected in as much as it was meant as a weapon (kill the person that read it) but also as a Horcrux, which Voldemort would have done well to hide like the rest of them. I feel the diary showed unique abilities as far as a Horcrux because it wasnt always destine to be one.
What excites me about that - you can see he was almost willing to let a piece of his soul be killed in an effort to re-birth - and people's biggest argument about Harry being a Horcrux is why would Voldemort try and kill a piece of him - looks like sometimes the sacrifice is more worthy that the soul fragment if it means he can avoid death.

kashlie

27-10-2005, 23:10

If Harry is a Horcrux, and Voldemort knows it, he is tossing up between sacrificing one part of his soul, against keeping alive the only person who can bring about his downfall. As far as we know, Voldemort isn't aware that his other Horcruxes have been destroyed - except the diary - which means he is probably more willing to let go of the piece in Harry.

Alz

28-10-2005, 10:33

Another thought struck me that might support Harry as a Horcrux.
Dumbledore said that Harry needs to find something of Ravenclaw and/or Gryffindor.
Well try this .... ;)
Harry was living in Godric's Hollow!!
He saved special locations and deaths to seal his Horcruxes - well perhaps Godric's Hollow was enough to make him feel that would fufill the Gryffindor link - that as well as the fact of the prophecy.
Hey - just a thought :D

Pip

04-11-2005, 02:59

I thought that too when I read HBP, however there's something that doesn't fit. If Harry is a Horcrux, why does Voldemort tried to kill Harry on the graveyard in GoF. It doesn't make sense. Voldemort would try to protect part of himself not destroy it.

I don’t think Voldemort INTENDED to use Harry as a Horcrux. If he had succeeded in killing Harry in Gof then your right, he would have destroyed a part of himself. Also Dumbledore said in HBP that although he thinks Nagini is a Horcrux, it is inadvisable to use a living/thinking being. Also what if Harry had died when he was young, part of Voldys soul would have gone. BUT, what if part of Voldys soul is inside Harry and Voldy didn't know???

I'm new to this theory stuff so don't criticise too much everyone but what if.....

Voldemort was intending to use the murder of Harry to make the final horcrux, like Dumbledore says in HBP, so uses whatever spell it is that Slughorn mentions (in his unmodified memory) before he tried to kill Harry. When Voldys killing curse backfired, the horcrux spell worked and his soul split because he killed HIMSELF (he doesn’t die completely, but his body is destroyed). Because Harry is still alive, part of Voldys soul enters him and the other part disappears off to become the bit in Voldys body when he regenerates. This would also explain why Harry can feel Voldemorts emotions and see into his mind etc etc…

So Harry INADVERTANTLY becomes a horcrux!!! Voldemort thinks the spell didn’t work so DOESN’T KNOW his soul split and that part of it somehow got inside inside Harry which is why he still tries to kill him in GoF and makes Nagini into another horcrux. Its only when Voldemorts possessing Nagini to try and enter the Department of Mysteries that he realises Harry has access to his thoughts and feelings (OOtP pg 470) and so might start to think somethings going on. Also in HBP no one actually tries to kill Harry, does Voldy want to meet him face to face again to unravel the mystery on the night Harry was supposed to die....

Would this mean Voldy split his soul 8 times and Harry would have to die (and so become a martyr) so Voldemort can be wiped off the face of the earth(and JKR doesn’t have to write any more sequels)

Alz

04-11-2005, 12:16

OK - liking one part of that a huge deal!
Harry asked Dumbledore if Voldemort could feel when a piece of his soul is destroyed - Dumbledore thinks it is unlikely.
So you said he actually made Harry a Horcux and doesnt realise - why would he - same principle - once the soul is split - he looses feeling of it!
So yah - well done on that - that helps a huge deal in why Voldemort is still trying to kill him even thou he is a Horcrux - he simply doesnt know - he thinks the Powers and connection he has to Harry is because of the strange events of the night - I'm not sure he would even consider or could tell that a piece of him was in another Half blood!
Excellent Pip!

HPnut

05-11-2005, 17:09

I really think that Harry is the final Horcrux. I completely agree with Vestral when he says that Harry was ACCIDENTALLY made into a horcrux. The prophecy stated that "the Dark Lord will mark him as equal", and Dumbledore said that Voldemort accidentally transfered powers to Harry when the Avada Kedavra curse backfired. I think he also transfered some of his soul to Harry after he murdered Lily. When you factor in past events, it all adds up. It makes most sense to say that the soul would stay dormant in Harry until Voldemort was feeling a particularly strong emotion. As we already know, Harry could tell when Voldemort was angry of happy. This is because the different parts of Voldemort's soul would feel the emotion as well. When Mr. Weasley was attacked, and Harry was at the view point of the snake, he felt like he was Voldemort. Maybe that's because a part of him is. Again in the fifth book, every time Harry would look at Dumbledore, he would get the urge to hurt him. Maybe it was because the part of Voldemort that was in him, took control over the rest of his body. It would explain the special connection that the two have. I guess that would also explain why it's bad to make a Horcrux out of another living thing, because the person can realize that there is another being taking hold over him or her, or that he or she is able to feel the other person's emotions. If all of this is to be true, it must mean that Voldemort is unaware of the fact he has made his final Horcrux in Harry, because it wouldn't make sense that Voldemort would repeatedly try to kill him. Of course, all of this would mean that if the world were ever to be competely rid of Voldemort, he would have to kill himself. I drastically hope I'm wrong with this theory, but it really makes alot of sense. Don't forget, J.K Rowling also said that in the final two books, Harry is going to have to choose in between doing what is right, and what is easy. I'm interested to hear what others think.

P.S. Is there any proof, other than Dumbledore's theory, that Nagini was actually made into a Horcrux?

P.P.S. I also really like the idea about Ginny being the Seventh child of the Seventh child. It's makes sense that she's going to have a very big role in the final book. Good job to whoever figured this out!

Alz

06-11-2005, 11:21

HPnut - hope you dont mind but I moved this to here as it seemed to fit in better than the other post - thanks! :)

With regards to Dumbledore and his theory - I got the feeling from his pre-pensive lesson chat with Harry when he talked about speculation and wild guesses that there is one part at least he is wrong on - I think naming Nagini as a horcrux could be one - but then I also seeing him have some huge connections to her - just like Harry - so I am torn!

gumshoe

09-11-2005, 19:40

Pip's point about Voldemort making Harry a Horcrux inadvertently is one I've speculated upon before and find very persuasive. We have Voldemort actively seeking Harry's death until after the Ministry -- then nobody can touch him. It stands to reason that he discovered something when he tried to possess Harry. Interesting to note that the soul-bit, if Harry is a Horcrux after all, is protected by Lily's love!

Aurora

10-11-2005, 10:48

I will admit not having read every single posting in here, but decided to share some thought on this as I was thinking along the same line, that Harry might be a Horcrux, before I thought it a silly idea. Then load and behold here's the perfect thread. Okay, on to my point and I will say that I am neither convinced that he is or isn't yet.

I thought that Harry might be a Horcrux because of his importance, the fact that he has to search out something of Gryffindor, but again Voldemort would not have known that Harry would be that gryffindor item. To many years would pass before he would go to Hogwarts, and Voldemorts initial confrontation with Harry was to kill him not to make him a Horcrux! However desperate moments call for depeserate measures. Hmm.....

Can Horcrux be alive, well nagini is one therefore the answer has to be yes. So can Harry be one? Don't know, cause then why is Voldemort trying to kill him. Or is he trying to get that part of his soul back and then do away with him? Nah, doesn't sound right!

Why did Dumbeldore agree to bring Harry with him, to teach him about the Horcrux and give him now the legacy of finishing the destruction of these? The prophecy? Perhaps, but he's always been reluctant to put Harry in harms way. Or perhaps it is the part of Voldemort, that bit that resides within Harry that may allow him to finish the quest. To find and defeat the protections surrounding the remaining Horcrux? was that really the reason or was it to prepare Harry for the eventual revelation that he is one of these Horcrux. And perhaps does the prophecy (sorry can't actually remember that last bit) enforce the idea that Harry is a Horcrux, and if so. Should he defeat Voldemort, he really won't be totally defeated unless Harry also perishes, therefore destroying all the Horcrux?

So is he one or not. Its hard to really tell, I think this is one that we have really on your instincts, or perhaps we stumbled upon a little secret from JKR that she will reveal in later books.

Hope I wasn't boring there... but I found it the best way to post my thoughts on this.

Alz

10-11-2005, 12:27

Can Horcrux be alive, well nagini is one therefore the answer has to be yes. So can Harry be one? Don't know, cause then why is Voldemort trying to kill him. Or is he trying to get that part of his soul back and then do away with him? Nah, doesn't sound right!

This was touched upon earlier in the thread - does Voldemort actually know Harry is a Horcrux?
JKR had Dumbledore explain that Voldemort cannot feel the piece of soul once it left his body - as such he would have no idea!
He was intending to make a Horcrux out of Harry - but the idea might not have entered his mind he did just that when it all backfired.
I'm not 100% sure that Voldemort knows or even would know - perhaps that is why he sealed another in Nagini - because he was unaware he already had his total 7 he was looking for - he attained the magical number he was after that night - but the magic of seven wasnt all he thought it would be - but that is a different thread :p
In conclusion - there is nothing to suggest Voldemort knows that he has a soul piece in Harry - the same as Harry has no idea himself - I think Dumbledore knew ...

Aurora

10-11-2005, 13:04

But then, does Voldemort have to consiouscly give part of his soul to create a Horcrux? I would think so... I don't think he can "accidently" have it happen, know what I mean? I think there are indeed 7 not be accident 8.... however don't know if Harry is or not one of them. I want to say no, but not sure.

Alz

10-11-2005, 13:21

Well my best answer to that would be that Voldemort proceeded to attack Harry with the intention of sealing a horcrux - so he actually said the incantation or spell that was required to make a kill a 'possible' horcrux - i.e. what he needs to do to prep for extracting the ripped piece of soul - but since it all went wrong he doesnt know he actually did split his soul and encase it ...
Can only speculate really :p

mwollert

11-11-2005, 11:51

Interesting.

Just thinking what a mess it would make if all the Horcrux were destroyed and Voldy got killed too. What becomes of Harry if he is a Horcrux.

Aurora

11-11-2005, 12:05

Well Alz, your reasoning is quite sound. Its is a VERY plausible theory, now that makes me think... hmmmmm ya making me think to hard on this theory now :P What if................

Vold. E. Mort

11-11-2005, 12:33

Tell me again why we all know for a fact that Nagini is a Horcrux and not just a familiar/minion/some other kind of servant/pet?

Alz

11-11-2005, 12:45

Tell me again why we all know for a fact that Nagini is a Horcrux and not just a familiar/minion/some other kind of servant/pet?
You know I actually do agree with your comment there - I am not wholly convinced that Nagini is a Horcrux ...
My only dilemma is based on the way Voldemort looks like a snake - he used her milk as part of his initial re-birth ... and the way he connects with her as an equal and not an underling like everyone else around him.
Notice the respect he pays her - now for a loaner that doesn't rely on anyone - that has to make you think as well ...
As I said, I kinda agree - I feel that was a mistake by Dumbledore ... but then again she could be what he feels was his 6th Horcrux - but in fact Harry was and now he has 8 Horcruxes including himself ...

gumshoe

11-11-2005, 18:35

The idea that Voldemort dies and there's still a soul-bit in Harry is big, mwollert. I like it b/c it would seem that the final battle would take place within Harry, or perhaps beyond the Veil, something I've always thought about. Can we expand upon this idea more?

I just said something similar about Nagini elsewhere; I'm not sure Nagini is one, either -- even so, as much as the Harrycrux theory makes sense, it gives me the willies, and I should get past that if I'm going to give it my honest and rational attention.

It's either Dumbledore's mistake that Nagini is a Horcrux, or that Harry is one and he didn't realize it, or both; or he's mistaken about something else entirely (like the possibility that there's a Horcrux at Hogwarts).

[I've just had a thought on Dumbledore's mistake, which I've been speculating was the unknown Horcrux being at Hogwarts -- BUT...what if he knew there was one there already, maybe since just after the graveyard scene? And it was part of the reason his presence at Hogwarts or the protections on it were so important? Where does this idea go, Alz?]

Anyway, it does strike me as possible that Dumbledore suspected Harry was a Horcrux and wanted to test this theory by having him destroy the locket, but the tower events (and, oh yeah, the fake locket) got in the way. If he did suspect as much, I think it'd be consistent with his character to hold that information back for a time, perhaps until Harry had wrapped his brain around the whole Horcrux idea, or perhaps (through a training mission...?) he'd tested Harry's commitment to destroying them (and tested Harry's loyalty).

Have I just stumbled onto something really interesting, or is it just me?

halliemei

13-11-2005, 10:41

Regarding VM's similarities in appearance to a snake, Vestral and I had an interesting discussion on that the other day. We concluded that perhaps (just perhaps) this is a tie to the ultimate evil -- think Genesis. The evil in Genesis is represented as a serpent. It's an old image, found not only in religion but in myth. So, as VM becomes more evil, he becomes more serpent-like. The horcrux sealing is making him less human, so percentage-wise he's more "evil". Okay, it's not our best theory, but it does cover the snake-like appearance without Nagini being a horcrux.

Regarding whether DD is "wrong" about Nagini. . . . I think he is. I think he either knows that it's Harry and that he's doing the "living being" discussion here because he wants Harry to wrap his mind around that idea without scaring him to death or that he really doesn't know Harry is a horcrux. JKR says in her Mugglenet/TLC interview that DD is usually not far off the mark. That does not say he's right. I would use that as evidence of either of these theories -- either Harry is supposed to figure it out from Nagini as an option OR that we just know it now. But, what it brings up as a scenario is horrifying. Poor Harry would kill Nagini (which will be cool anyway) and then VM and VM still wouldn't disappear. At that time, he realizes what's happened and what that means. Poor Harry is no longer with us. My theory is that he tests the loyalty of his best friend and in doing so seals VM's fate.

Alz

13-11-2005, 11:22

it has taken Harry a short amount of time to absorb a lot of information about his life - I think Dumbledore knew by telling Harry he is a horcrux he could remove Harry's hope of getting rid of Voldemort once and for all.
Imagine being Harry and being told that he has to track and destroy certain items in order to stand a chance of killing Voldemort - for the sting in the tail to be he also has to die.
I think Dumbledore knew it would leave Harry totally unfocused and unable to move forward - by concealing this information he gave Harry the information he needed to get to the ending point - at which time Harry would work out that he is indeed a Horcrux and thus how he will remove this Horcrux and survive.

Sirius Potter Fan

16-11-2005, 21:53

OK, my agrument against (sparing time Alz;) ) I believe that you cannot place a piece of soul into something that has a soul already. Why else are the known horcruxes all inanimate objects? Yes, there is Naghini, alive, yes, but most agree that animals do not posses a soul. (and that is if she is a horcrux)

It realy doesn't make sense to make a horcurx of something that can so easily die of illness, accidents, or murder. Also, Voldemort could not stand to posses Harry because of the love he has in his soul. so, how could part of his soul continue to reside inside Harry, wouldn't it be equally repelled?

gumshoe

20-11-2005, 07:29

SPF, eager to watch the debate! Two questions: If Voldemort's soul ended up in Harry ( it would have to happen by accident, wouldn't it?), Lily's love might protect it rather than repel it, maybe? Are animals indeed without souls? I guess it's a safe assumption in the Potterverse, and at least according to the Ministry they don't (Hagrid might disagree...).

Alz: Would Dumbledore necessarily know Harry was a Horcrux, or could this be his mistake, not realizing Harry was a Horcrux?

Still trying to get comfortable with this subject...
gumshoe

fawn2388

20-11-2005, 14:54

After seeing Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, and rethinking my knowledge I have come to this conclusion, this may seem crazy, but I would love to throw it in and see what it brings up.

Harry was the last horcrux. When the Goblet brings Harry to the cementry Harry is cut open and bleed, his blood is than used to bring Voldemort back, thus meaning that the piece of soul that was in Harry is gone. I thought about a few things, and one that popped up in my mind that AFTER this incident Harry no longer has dreams that occur with the burning scar, so maybe Harry is accident made a Horcrux with his scar, as previously suggested.

Since we still don't defintely know two more horcruxes, this is a possiblity, tell me what you think, I abouselty love having what I think challeneged.

SnarkologyMajor

22-11-2005, 16:01

Hello, I am new here and to any forum so I ask for patience if I commit any faux pas. I do believe I may be helpful in contributing some canon work I have compiled on Harry being a Horcrux (although I'm leaning towards his scar actually being a horcrux).

"You can speak Parseltongue Harry," said Dumbledore calmly, "because Lord Voldemort - who is the last remaining ancestor (I have copy w/ deliberate mistake) of Salazar Slytherin can speak Parseltongue. Unless I am much mistaken, he transferred some of his powers to you, the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended I'm sure..." "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said thunderstruck. "It certainly seems so." (US COS, Chap. 18 pg 332-333)

....Someone was screaming, screaming inside his head...a woman... "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!" "Stand aside, you silly girl...stand aside now..." "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead-" ...."Not Harry, Please have mercy...have mercy..." (US POA, Chap. 9. pg 179)

White fog obscured his senses...big blurred shapes were moving around him...then came a new voice, a man's voice, shouting, panicking- "Lily, take Harry & go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off-" The sounds of someone stumbling from the room-a door bursting open- a cackle of high-pitched laughter. (US POA, Chap. 12, pg. 240)

Harry has two memories of the same moment, I believe one is actually Voldemort's.

"I was saying, my dear, that you were clearly born under the baleful influence of Saturn," said Professor Trelawney, a note of resentment in her voice at the fact that he had obviously not been hanging on her words. "Born under- what, sorry?" said Harry. "Saturn, dear, the planet Saturn!" said Professor Trelawney, sounding definately irritated that he wasn't riveted by this news. "I was saying that Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment of your birth...Your dark hair...your mean stature...tragic losses so young in life...I think I am right in saying, my dear, that you were born in midwinter?" "No," said Harry, "I was born in July." (US GOF, Chap. 13, pg. 200)

We now know that Tom Riddle Jr. was indeed born in midwinter.

"That's right," said Mrs. Cole, helping herself to more gin. "I remember it clear as anything, because I'd just started here myself New Year's Eve and bitter cold, snowing, you know. Nasty night. And this girl, not much older than I was myself at the time, came staggering up the front steps. Well she wasn't the first. We took her in, and she had the baby within the hour. And she was dead in another hour." (US HBP, Chap. 13, pg. 266)

POA the movie; In the final dementor scene when they are sucking the souls out of Harry and Sirius, for a split second there are clearly 2 dementors sucking 2 souls out of Harry at the same time. While this isn't exactly profound canon, it is supporting evidence that is shockingly visible.

I'm fairly certain Voldemort was unaware that Harry is one of his horcruxes, since it seems as though he was going to turn Nagini into one w/Harry's death at the end of Goblet of Fire. This proves that he hadn't made his final Horcrux w/ Frank's death - as Dumbledore suspected. If he didn't do that, then we are one Horcrux short, but that's off topic (wink)

...And now I am going to prove my power by killing him, here and now, in front of you all, when there is no Dumbledore to help him, and no mother to die for him. I will give him his chance. He will be left in no doubt which of us is the stronger. Just a little longer, Nagini," he whispered and the snake glided away through the grass... (US GOF, Chap. 33, pg. 658)

As far as I can figure, Voldemort only became aware of Harry as one of his horcruxes when he attempted to possess him in OOTP.

...And then Harry's scar burst open. He knew he was dead: it was pain beyond imagining, pain past endurance-He was gone grom the hall, he was locked in the coils of a creature with red eyes, so tightly bound that Harry did not know where his body ended and the creature's began.They were fused together, bound by pain, and there was no escape-... (US OotP, Chap. 36, pg 815)

I realize this is exceptionally long, however all of these clues Jo gave us along with the prophecy, Harry seeming to remember Tom Riddle when he first got the diary, the dementors fascination with Harry, etc... seem to definately point to Harry being Voldemort's horcrux. I do hope this helps out those with the same idea!

Alz

22-11-2005, 16:42

fawn2388 - the reason the scar stopped hurting after GoF was that finally Voldemort had worked out that Harry could see into his mind the same way Voldemort could see into Harry's (Horcrux once again) - as such he employeed occlumency, thus cutting the open link.

SnarkologyMajor - that is a fantastic piece!
I need to go watch PoA again for that little bit on the dementors!
I have to say that sums things up really well for me as well - nice work!

gumshoe

22-11-2005, 22:42

I too enjoyed your post, SnarkologyMajor. You know what really got me? "White fog obscured his senses..." I wonder -- can the soul (not just the brain) remember?!

DumbledoreLives

23-11-2005, 02:13

SnarkologyMajor

23-11-2005, 02:36

Thank You Alz...I have loads of notes that my daughter finally convinced me to share even though I have a slight forum phobia!

gumshoe, I do think it's possible in Ms. Rowlings world that the soul remembers. We know that Tom's diary horcrux definately remembers and that was only a piece of his soul.

DumbledoreLives Many Thanks! I have thought that too, and it is a very good point. But then I got to thinking - the Dementors don't really show loyalty to anybody. They are drawn to power, tragic memories, and are completely souless, remorseless creatures. Harry, if it is true he is a horcrux, then he has a peice of Voldemort's power. Harry has his own pain, but he also carries Voldemort's pain. Harry is an extremely powerful wizard, but he is vunerable. And that makes Harry a very tasty snack for the Dementors.

Oh, and if Voldemort only has 1/7th (or something) of his soul, then are the Dementors attracted to him 6/7ths less? Or to Harry - who has 1 1/7ths of a soul? I think this is the reason Voldemort has some sort of weak dominance over them.

Alz

24-11-2005, 03:34

SnarkologyMajor - BRAVO!! That was a stunning debut post! Fascinating, and plausible. I am recently converted to the idea that Harry is an accidental horcrux. The possession incident at the ministry in OotP pretty much seals it, at least for me.

You raised many good points. I must say though that one aspect has me confused. In PoA we are introduced to the Dementors. They are blind but are drawn to Harry in particular because of the tragedies that have befallen him in the past. They attack him at every opportunity. The Dementors also have a strong affinity for Voldy, as the first Wizard War tell us and as evidenced by their revolt at Azkaban once they learn he's back. So, if Voldy passed Harry some of his traits and abilities during the AK at GH and is psychically linked to him and also accidently turned him into a horcrux, why would the Dementors attack him? If he is so much like their master and possesses a part of Voldy's soul, shouldn't they want to protect Harry, or at least leave him alone?:o please help to sort this out.
Just to add to that one ...
Dementors thrive on people's happy feelings, they suck the life out of them slowly right ...
Well for a Dementor - the real main course is if they get a kiss - they get the persons soul.
Imagine looking at Harry and seeing 2 souls in him - it would be like a banquet to them!
I think they are so drawn to him because he contains more than the average victim - a buy one get one free deal!
All they need is a supersized coke and they are totally sorted :D

Sirius Potter Fan

24-11-2005, 17:08

All they need is a supersized coke and they are totally sorted

I have to admit that the circumstantial evidence here is compelling. However I hold to my belief that something cannot be a horcrux if it already contains a soul. Too crowded. I'll have to watch PoA again, JKR did say that there were clues in the movie that weren't in the books. . . Thing that gets me is, if it did happen and Harry could be a horcrux, it had to be accidental. Voldemort certainly wouldn't do that on purpose, and he wouldn't have tried to kill him in the first two books and in the fourth and fifth. But now. . . HOW do you do that on accident????? As for Voldemort using Harry's blood to regenerate, that was because of his Mother's protection, he cared only that he could now touch him without being harmed. It was said that he could have used any enemies blood to regenerate, so he didn't "need" his soul back from Harry.

Now two arguments on another piece of evidence. It would seem to support the idea of Harry as a Horcrux, in that in HBP Voldemort had ordered that no one touch Harry, that he wanted to kill himself. Now that could be seen to mean that Voldemort knew Harry was a horcrux accidentaly created, and didn't want that horcrux destroyed unless he was there to reclaim or redistribute the portion of soul in question. But I believe that it is just Voldemort totaly obsessed with proving to all that this boy can not defeat him, especialy after the four previous incidents that surely must have hurt his confidence as well as his reputation with his followers.

And, how do you get past the prophesy? Neither can live while the other lives. That seems the oposite of what you would think if Harry were a horcrux. That would have to go more like "Neither can die while the other lives" And that's not how it went is it!

Just some things to consider;)

Alz

25-11-2005, 03:33

Neither can live because Voldemort set about the prophecy and wont rest until he kills Harry - by subsequence to that Harry cant really live - live a normal and full life until Voldemort is dead ... ergo neither can live while the other survives ...
And it is so true - because as you said above - neither can die while the other is alive ... but lets face it - if JKR wrote that - would have maybe lead a few down the path Harry contained something that was keeping Voldemort alive.

char6_0

27-11-2005, 10:29

Okay, I know that you will all think that I am crazy, and I sure hope that you are right, but I think that Harry is the seventh horcrux. Here's why:

1. We know what the other six are (Voldemort, the diary, the ring, the locket, the cup, the snake), there is only one missing element

2. We know that Volde. has a penchant for making the relics of Hogwart's founders into Horcruxes, and Harry has somewhat of a connection to Godric Gryffindor (pulling Gryffindor's sword out of the sorting hat, "Godric's hollow," possible descendent of Gryffindor)

3. Volde. likes to make things Horcruxes after every major killing, and he just killed the Potters that had thrice escaped him

4. People are always saying that Volde. transferred a part of himself into Harry that night he tried to kill him

5. Harry and Volde. share a supernatural awareness of each other via Harry's scar

6. The prophecy outlines a special connection between how either Harry or Voldemort can only live after the other dies, maybe this refers to the fact that the survivor will only be able to live a full life without carrying the other's soul after the other dies

7. Rowling had mentioned that the last word in the seventh book might be "scar," which might indicate that the scar has an importance - maybe because it is the Horcrux...?

I may also be wrong, and I sure hope so, because if I am correct, then Harry would have to die in the seventh book. There are a few facts that may make this theory incorrect, some of which can be accounted for, for instance Voldemort meant to kill Harry, not transfer his soul to him, but the transfer may have been unintentional.

Any thoughts?

Alz

28-11-2005, 04:06

Hey char6_0 - welcome BTW!
I added your post in with this thread that kinda deals with the premise - hope you dont mind!

DumbledoreLives

29-11-2005, 01:38

Harry would be an accidental horcrux that Voldy wouldn't have known about until OotP. Is it possible though that DD knew about it all along? If you recall at the end of OotP, DD is explaining to HP why he hasn't looked at Harry all year, etc. He then tells Harry that his caring about him too much was the flaw in his plan. "WHAT PLAN IS HE TALKING ABOUT?" Being an excellent occlumens, maybe DD read Tom Riddle's mind back when he visited Hogwart's seeking employment - and possible vessels for his horcruces. Maybe that's why Riddle flinched, using Legilimens to keep DD out. Maybe at that point DD got a glimpse of things to come. On the night HP was delivered to the Dursleys via DD, if DD concluded Harry was an accidental horcrux, with the scar as proof, then DD could have put his 'plan' to bring down Voldy into motion at that point - by removing the Harry Horcrux when the time was right. Since DD knew how to destroy the ring horcrux and the locket horcrux (although it was a fake), he must know how to remove the Harry horcrux too. Naturally, since the horcrux is dark magic, destroying, or removing a horcrux from a person must be terrible and life threatening. Therefore being that he had grown to care about Harry so much, he set aside his plan, much to the detriment of the wizarding world. Letting Harry live happily without this cruel knowledge would indeed have been an 'old man's mistake'.

Oh yeah, I've been meaning to ask this: Is it possible that because Tom Riddle did not obtain the Gryffindor Sword or any other founder's relics during his visit, that he turned something else at Hogwarts into a horcrux? Is it possible that he could have turned the Slytherin Dungeon's in a horcrux? It's totally significant to him. It's the one place he felt at home. If not that, then how about the CoS itself? Another totally significant place for him. No one really knew where the Chamber was anyway. It would also be totally protected because of all the spells on Hogwarts. I think he would do it for these reasons and to spite DD in the process. Kind of an "I did it because I could" thing.;) Thoughts?

SnarkologyMajor

29-11-2005, 04:01

DumbledoreLives, I agree that there is a possibility Dumbledore knew Harry could be a horcrux, although I think if we go by what we know of his personality, he was holding on to the hope that Harry wasn't. I certainly don't believe that he is evil, but through the course of trying to accomplish the greater good, he has made a few miscalculations. I think Harry being a Horcrux is accidental...what do you think of the possibility that whatever object Voldemort was going to use for his last horcrux was tampered with? It makes sense to me, that he must of taken something with him to Godric's Hollow...and if someone rendered it useless as a horcrux, it seems to explain not only Harry, but also the house in ruins. Between Lily's love and an object being tampered with, there would have been alot of chaos! Maybe Snape? Dumbledore? Regulus? we really don't seem to have enough to do more than guess.
I think it is very possible that Tom turned a relic into a horcrux, and since Dumbledore neglected to mention the Sorting Hat, I was very suspicious! Can you think of a better way for Voldemort to hand-pick future deatheaters? What do you think?

Alz

29-11-2005, 05:36

..and for those that dont think Dumbledore was capable of hiding the truth from Harry - look no further than HBP and Dumbledore being asked directly by Harry why he trusts Snape - he stops and thinks for a second - then reverts back to the same story ...
Dumbledore is manipulative - we have seen instances of this - including once again HBP when he has Snape in the Forbidden Forest ...
I think Dumbledore might have guessed that Harry was indeed a Horcrux but couldnt tell him - because he knew it would throw Harry away from his mission.
Perhaps he felt that by the time Harry worked out he was a Horcrux - Harry would also work out some way to remove it - or at least finish the job.

HomeAtHogwarts

29-11-2005, 13:28

I do think Harry is the final Horcrux. It explains Harry's magical connection with Voldemort. I think Dumbledore suspected the truth, which is why he kept everone but Harry in the dark about what he was doing.

If Harry is the final horcrux, it also gives a good idea of what is going to happen in the final book. We know that Voldemort is only vulnerable when all of the Horcrux are destroyed. Harry is going to end up doing some type of self-sacrifice in order to help destroy Voldemort. Remember the prophecy!

Remember also that Dumbledore said that even with all of the Horcrux destroyed, it would take a wizard of great skill to finish off Voldemort. That would be Snape. There is more to his story than we know. I'm guessing it has something to do with Harry's mother. Dumbeldore would not have trusted Snape without good reasons. It appears he pushed Snape into killing him, maybe as part of a larger plan.

My guess is that after destroying the other Horcrux, Harry confronts Snape and his story is revealed. They end up working together. At some point Harry finds out the awful truth about himself, and makes the ultimate sacrifice with Snape possibly finishing off Voldemort.

Rowling is a great writer who is not afraid to kill off her characters. Every book has dealt with death in some way. Think how much darker each book has gotten. If it fit into her vision, I don't think she would shy away from letting Harry die. This is my guess...

Sirius Potter Fan

29-11-2005, 15:32

OK, here is a question for all you Harry is a horcrux fans. . .

If Harry is indeed a horcrux, and, (in defense of his own life of course) were forced to kill another person, say a Death Eater, would he be able to peel off the bit of Voldemort's soul that was placed in him and then destroy the horcrux made from that? Seems like a simple enough solution to me!

Alz

30-11-2005, 06:01

Umm - well I suppose killing rips your own soul - I dont think you have an option to nominate another foreign part of you ..
Although interesting though none the less ... that is why I liked the fact someone pointing towards the 'soul vacuums' we have in the books - might explain why Dementors are in the series - they are built for sucking souls - I reckon they could remove it if anyone can ;)

Sirius Potter Fan

30-11-2005, 08:11

I'm hoping that this is the thread where someone mentioned this, at least this is where it should be.

Someone was supporting Harry being a Horcrux, by saying that in the PoA movie that a dementor is sucking two souls from Harry. and that this is a clue from JKR that was mentioned would forshadow something in the final books.

I took a look at the DVD again, and first the only Soul being sucked out is Sirius'. It is represented by the glowing blue ball rising out of his mouth. I saw what the poster was talking about, it was when dementors were "feeding" on Harry (and Sirius') emotions. at one point what is being "sucked" from Harry forms two seperate. . . ummm. . . paths? not sure how to describe it, but I think you know what I mean. If you look closely, it is not two things being sucked from Harry, but two different dementors sucking from Harry at the same instant that causes the two seperate paths, not two souls coming out of Harry.

SnarkologyMajor

01-12-2005, 03:42

SiriusPotterFan, I was the one who mentioned the POA movie, although I did qualify that it wasn't canon and I don't know if that was the clue J.K.R. was mentioning. She did say it was inadvertant(sp?) and it was something you wouldn't notice until after you learned some things. I just thought it was visually...fascinating. I was trying to think of an instance in the books where two dementors were feeding off the same person at once? I'll have to check. I can understand being resistant to the idea that Harry is a Horcrux, since my own mother refuses it. To me it's the only thing that makes sense and I do think J.K.R. gave us quite alot of canon to support it. Part of the fun is debating all the different interpretations.

Alz

01-12-2005, 06:50

Defo agree on that ...
JKR writes in a manner that leaves us open to make assumptions, create theories and to speculate wildly - I mean I have been doing that for 4 years with websites!
The point being - JKR does things like this on purpose - and you know every so often one of those wild idea's turns out to be correct ... (thinks back to all the heat he got suggesting Dumbledore would be killed ... :p )

I'm not saying that H as a Horcrux is a solid fact - but there is a lot of compelling pointers towards it - and I think JKR did this on purpose.

Personally - I think it is the people that keeps HP so fresh and exciting between all those long breaks in books - because I for one love all kinds of thoughts - be them factual, wild or just out there!

Cutun

02-12-2005, 13:41

I'm not sure wether Harry is a horcrux or not. There seems to be supporting evidence for this to be true but then again there is also evidence suggesting he is not.

For example:

Evidence supporting Harry is a Horcrux:

1. There is deffinetly a link between Harry and Voldemort. On OoTP Harry was able to see what voldemort was doing and Voldemort could get on Harry's dreams without them being near each other but when Harry was practicing occlumency, He and Snape had to be close and making eye contact.

2. Harry can speak with snakes, a trait Voldemort has but non one of Harry's parrents do.

Evidence supporting Harry is NOT a Horcrux

1. Voldemort was trying to kill Harry, he himself says so on GoF, and unless a horcrux is something you could make by mistake or as a side effect of a failed AK curse.

2. The prophecy says neither will live while the other survives. If the prophecy is true then Harry cant be a Horcrux. See if Harry dies nothing happens, Voldemort is alive but lost part of his soul when Harry died. But if its the other way around, Voldemort can't die unless Harry dies because part of Voldemort's soul is inside Harry and the prophecy doesn't come true because neither lived.

One last theory I'd like to throw in for the discussion is this: If a horcrux is something you could make by mistake or could be made as a side effect of a failed AK curse, then maybe its not Harry the one that's the horcrux, maybe its his scar.

SnarkologyMajor

03-12-2005, 04:18

Cutun, I also believe Harry's scar is the horcrux. I think to J.K.R. this would be an important distinction. She has told us that scar is the last word of the series and we have a quote from Dumbledore-

US SS pg. 15- "Yes," said Dumbledore. "He'll have that scar forever."

"Couldn't you do something about it, Dumbledore?"

"Even if I could, I wouldn't. Scars can come in handy....."

Jo has also given us many clues pertaining to the fact that Harry's scar hurts everytime there is a connection with Voldemort.

Alz

03-12-2005, 07:45

She also said the shape isnt the most important part of it - suggesting there is more to that scar... but then again we knew that.

The prophecy works just fine and indeed makes more sense in the context of Harry being a Horcrux ... neither can live while the other survives ...
That is because Voldemort believes he has to kill Harry to live - blissfully unaware that if he left Harry alone he would be fine.
Dumbledore stressed to Harry most highly that the prophecy only matters because Voldemort made it that way - and he will not stop till he killed Harry ... but if Harry kills off all other horcruxes and is the final one, then that is when it becomes interesting if Harry works out he is a horcrux ...
Someone said that in fact the prophecy should have said both can't die while the other lives - I think this is the real play on wording because the equal is also true!

Harry+Ginny=Love

03-12-2005, 07:51

i doubt it. because if Harry was a horcrux, he'd have to kill himself before he could kill Voldemort. But the profecy says that he has to be the one to kill Voldemort. So how could he if he's already dead?

halliemei

03-12-2005, 08:26

This is the most fascinating theory right now. I think most folks who've read here know that I'm also a believer in the scar is a horcrux. I agree with Alz that the wording of the prophesy makes it possible and remind everyone that JKR said on her own site that she and Prof Trelawney worded it very carefully. That helps. I also think that the scar was accidentally made (for the details, folks should read back a couple of pages). Here's how I think it works in the end . . .

Harry destroys everything except Nagini and VM, and goes to face VM. He kills Nagini (which he still believes to be a horcrux, and will be fun for the fans just because ;) ). Then, he kills VM -- in his current body. Remember the prophesy says Harry has to kill VM -- all of the pieces, not just the one body. So, then he somehow (yeah, I'm still working on that part -- but I think his visit to GH and a visit to his own memory "that night" will play a part here) realizes that VM isn't gone. So, then he works out that he has the remaining horcrux and has all along. He has to kill himself -- or someone has to help. I have a theory on that, but the canon is weak so I'll keep it to myself. He dies, and the scar disappears. Some think he'll rise again somehow like the phoenix, and I don't discount that as a possibility. There you go . . . :D

Alz

05-12-2005, 05:56

It is very possible that Harry and Voldemort could go into the means to destroy Voldemort together .. ergo how can Voldemort re-birth if his horcrux is killed .. see what I am saying?
Now of course - we all want to think of ways Harry can extract the piece of Voldemort from him and finish the job - but Harry might work it out that while he is alive - Voldemort will always live .. so in order to do the job he has to find someway of doing both them in at the same time .. half the people loves and cares about are on the other side .. so doubt it will scare him too much.
And this is where I feel will be his way to escape - he has no fear of death whereas we know Voldemort's view on it ...
Still like the idea of the soul sucking Dementors to come take that part of Voldemort out of him ... just seems to explain them and their part in the series!

SnarkologyMajor

13-12-2005, 04:32

OK this may sound crazy:D but Alz you know how you were hinting(anvil-sized:D ) at Harry being a Horcrux BEFORE Voldemort tried to kill him? Everyone was discounting it, because no way would Lily and James do that-but what if it was Snape? And what if it has something to do with Regulus and the locket horcrux?

Alz

13-12-2005, 12:39

OK - might need you to expand your thoughts on that one - not sure i'm following you ... :o

SnarkologyMajor

14-12-2005, 04:42

OK, I'll attempt to make sense:D These are more random threads that I'm trying to piece together-so it's not very organized! As I have been working on why there seems to be two different versions of Sirius running around through the septology(as per my post on the R.A.B. thread) I have been noticing a timing pattern. We know that Regulus was supposed to have been killed around a yr.(give or take a few months) before James and Lily were killed , we know that the prophecy was given about a yr. before (give or take a few months) before James and Lily were killed. I for one am convinced that Harry's scar is a Horcrux and given the evidence of the Trelawney pensieve scene, I think we can conclude that Snape gave Voldemort the first part of the prophecy on Dumbledore's orders. Now I realize we're treading the whole DIE idea- however I have trouble w/that given all of the other evidence about Albus. I think Dumbledore has taken a lot of gambles and risks-and he's made mistakes. We've been told that by J.K.R. and Albus, and Albus outright admitted it was his fault Sirius died. I think he's lived long enough to understand that sometimes what seems to be an evil deed is outweighed by the ultimate greater good(which I suppose is more of a theological question)
Now given all this I propose the wild theory that Regulas stealing the horcrux and Dumbledore sending Snape to Voldemort-was all part of the same plan. Somehow Dumbledore thought by using Voldemort's horcrux he would be able to protect the Potter's-but it backfired because at that time they were only aware of One Horcrux not multiple horcruxes. R.A.B.'s note specifically said-"I have stolen the real Horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as possible" He doesn't say- I have stolen One of the horcruxes. Also, we can assume that Voldemort didn't kill Regulas because he figured out what he did since the fake locket is still in the place where Regulus left it. I think that Regulus planned his fake death by pretending to back out of the Deatheaters as his cover. I think J.K.R. wants us to think that Regulus knew he's going to die when Voldemort finds out what he's done. But by him putting in his note"I know I will be dead long before you read this" it also could show that he's planning his own death and covering all the bases.
I haven't figured how they would use the locket horcrux as protection (still work in progress) and it seems a stretch to think anyone would actually place it in Harry, but some other ideas are putting it in Lily?(hmmm) or if Voldemort had taken an object with the intention of making a Horcrux with Harry's murder-maybe they put the locket in that. What would happen if the object you were tying to place a Horcrux in was already a Horcux? Would it deflect? I dont' know, but would love to hear ideas!
Many people have thought that the whole cave incident was a setup, and my instinct was to think that also, but if it was- you have to wonder why put Harry through all of that. Well I would say it's to lead him to Regulus , that's why I wondered if you can place a person under the Fidelius Charm. If Sirius was the Secret-Keeper, with him dead then no one else can tell the secret?
I know there is alot of speculation here, but somehow feels like we're getting closer to what really happened that night in Godric's Hollow. I'm trying to shoot holes in this theory myself, so would welcome any opposing ideas!:D

Alz

15-12-2005, 12:08

Wow - some impressive thoughts and conclusions there - and yeah sure some parts are a bit wild - but I like a majority of what you said!
You might want to break out the parts to do with Regulus staging his death into another thread maybe - would be good to hear expanded thoughts on that because I can see what you are saying ...

Perhaps taking your thoughts and combining them with another thread I created about self destruction - what if the locket was placed on Harry and when Voldemort decided to target him - the horcrux took it as an attack on itself - and the self protection kicked in?
As I said in that thread - I wonder what would happen if a person decided to destroy their own horcruxes ... this would fit in no?
I am a great fan of Voldemort creating a hybrid AK that allowed to kill someone but at the same time seal a horcrux - this would fit in quite nicely here as well - he attacks Harry (who is in possession of Voldemort's missing horcrux) with the modified AK - thus it backfired but still seals the kill with a horcrux - Harry!
Inspired SM! :D

SnarkologyMajor

16-12-2005, 04:49

Thanks Alz:D I'm so used to having a complete mishmash of scribbled notes-and trying to learn how to make them coherent for a forum! I have to say though it's alot of fun!(and slightly addictive-uh-oh:D ) Your right- Regulus faking his death is a seperate issue-one idea's not dependant on the other. I'll have to work on putting my thoughts together on that one(may take some time).
It's funny-I was listing the different ways that they could have used the locket to protect Harry and left out the obvious! You and my daughter caught that right away-she looked at me and said "Mom, it is a necklace-duh!"lol. Now I may be making this more complicated than it is, but I'm trying to pinpoint the details.
So if Harry was wearing the locket and you can't destroy your own horcrux-then it reflected back to Voldemort and destroyed his body. So how did a horcrux end up in Harry? I'm thinking what was left of Voldemort's soul reflected back to Harry? Or when Voldemort's spell hit the locket-the part he was trying to split went in both directions? Does this make sense?
I'm a little confused about where to put this:o Should I move the whole thing to the self-destruction thread?

Alz

17-12-2005, 01:11

OK - this is once again the realms of speculation - but when Voldemort wants to kill for horcruxes purposes he casts a modifed version of AK - be it he verbally says AK and non-verbally utters something that makes this a horcrux kill - but the speculation states he tried to attack Harry for the purpose of making him a horcrux - Harry has a piece of Voldemort's souls - his horcrux - around or near him - we then swap to the spec that questions can a person kill his own horcruxes - I suggest not - so he attacks Harry to kill him and make him a horcrux - the horcrux Harry is in possession of causes the spell to go wild - Kill Voldemort and the thus the death occurs to seal a horcrux - but the target of the attack becomes the horcrux ... phew ... hope that made sense ... :confused:
Basically we know Voldemort was going to make a horcrux with Harry's death - we speculate that the spell to seal a horcrux could be combined with the killing curse - someone dies and a horcrux is created - problem is it is kinda reversed!

SnarkologyMajor

17-12-2005, 03:27

I don't think that a modified AK is much of a stretch! I mean it's the only thing that makes sense-if you're going to split your soul by murdering someone-wouldn't it have to be simultaneous? You sure wouldn't want your soul piece just hanging around to land anywhere! It would have to be very specific if we stick to laws of nature.
The pieces that J.K.R. has given us about that locket-
1.Merope had it before she birthed Tom Jr.
2.Regulus stole it right before Trelawney's prophecy
3.Snape, Albus, and Aberforth deliberately let the first part of it be known
4.Dumbledore's final journey in life leading right to the fake locket
5.the clue that Aberforth has the real locket
These cannot all be coincidences! That locket has to be the key to alot of the septology. It makes perfect sense that they tried to use it for Harry's protection and even though in a way it did protect him, it was not what anyone counted on.

Maybe we should start a thread just on the locket?:)

Alz

19-12-2005, 11:38

I suppose IF RAB spoke to Dumbledore about the locket and what it was - then Dumbledore would have known Voldemort was using Horcruxes back then - he claims in HBP that it was a recent discovery of his ... as such it seems less likely Dumbledore would have given the Potters the locket ... and we are not 100% sure if Regulus had a relationship with the Potters - and if he did, wouldnt he have told the Potters what he had?
Sorry that seems a little OT doesnt it :o

kroeger2005

19-12-2005, 13:13

I came to the realization the other day that Harry Potter must be the final Horcrux of Lord Voldemort. I was very pleased to find a website where others had picked up on this. The obvious reasons behind this theory are 1) Harry and Voldemort share powers, (Harry is a parselmouth for no reason whatsoever) 2) Harry and Voldemort share thoughts and dreams. The true evidence of the truth shows up in the sixth book. In one paragraph. Rowling presents the clue to the mystery of the upcoming book and of the whole series. She misleads the readers to think that the snake may be a living horcrux, as Dumbledore explains to Harry. Then Harry asks the important question, "you can use animals for horcruxes?" Dumbledore responds

"Well, it is inadvisable to do so," said Dumbledore, "because to confide a part of your soul to something that can think and move for itself is obviously a very risky business. However, if my calculations are correct, Volemort was still at least one Horcrux short of his goal of six when he entered your parent's house with the intention of killing you."

So, Voldemort had one Horcrux to go as he entered the Potters house. This is the key clue. He only made five upon entering the Potter's house, yet Dumbledore says they need to find six. So Dumbledore is basically telling Harry that Voldemort made his final Horcrux inside the Potters' house, yet we know Voldemort was all but destroyed before he had a chance to kill Harry. He must have used James and Lily's murders to create the last horcrux. And what did he use to conceal his soul... It must be Harry. Hmm...why not use the boy prophesied to kill him to store part of his soul? That way, no matter who wins, part of him survives. This way Voldemort is basically covering all the bases in case he is one day killed by Potter. Then, part of him will continue within Potter. It is ridiculous when one thinks about the powerful Lord Voldemort so desperately trying to kill a baby with no magical powers, seems a little paranoid. It seems more likely that he wanted to make the horcrux while Harry was as young as possible so that he could not remember being made into one. The irony, is that in making the decision to conceal part of himself within young Harry, he actually fulfills the prophecy by dividing his powers and "marking him as his equal." The scar is where Voldemort's soul fragment is concealed (probably). It burns in response as it comes close to Voldemort's other soul fragments.
Some refute this theory because it is told that Voldemort tried to kill Harry and why would he try to destroy his own Horcrux. I suggest that Volemort never tried to kill Harry in his house. Rather he killed Harry's parents and intended to use the murders to create his final Horcrux. Remember, that only 2/7 of his soul remained in his body at this point. Something unexpected occurred when he tried to use the spell to horcrux Harry. Because of his mother's protection spell of love, only the better part of Volemort was given to Harry, all else was shut out. Divided one final time, his powers given to Harry, the best part of him taken by accident Voldemort is reduced to the final fragment of his soul, which we know to be an ethereal ghost like being that is introduced in Sorcerers Stone. Voldemort's resentment toward Harry grows throughout this whole time, as he knows that Harry carries within him the purest fragment of his soul, which imbues him with similiar powers to Voldemort, to the point that he is granted the same (twin) wand and speaks parselmouth, and shares thoughts with Voldemort. Voldemort allows everyone to believe that he originally tried to kill Harry rather than make him into a Horcrux, because knowledge of the truth would risk the destruction of Potter by the Ministry of Magic, Aurors, or Dumbledore. Another connection is that the weak Voldemort from Goblet of Fire demands that "the boy is everything, it cannot be done without the boy!" when explaining the regeneration spell, Potter's blood is used in this spell because he contains part of the Dark Lord's soul.
This idea just appeals to me because it seems to follow the same twists that Rowling's books have already taken. It ties all of the books together, and provides a last surprise that is worthy of Star Wars. It ties the villain and the hero together completely, and makes sense out of their animosity toward one another. It incorporates the idea of self-fulfilling prophecy of paranoid individuals. Something has always been missing to explain the link between Voldemort and Harry. The explanation given thus far, that "Voldemort transferred some of his powers to Harry when he gave him that scar," just doesn't say the whole thing. It begs the question, why? Why would he ever want to give his powers, or why would it happen on accident. Wizards, from what I've seen, don't normally go around giving away their powers to people, especially future enemies. I've never seen it happen in the books between anyone but Harry and Tom Riddle

Alz

20-12-2005, 11:36

Yep - that is a good re-cap on the sage of H is a H - nice one kroeger2005!
I like the little supporting evidences you added in there as well ...
Just to catch the doubters early on with this re-affirmation of the theory - Dumbledore admitted that he might be wrong on something - I think this is his belief that Nagini was used as a horcrux from the death of Frank in GoF ...
Voldemort values Nagini because she played her part in him re-birth - but is she a horcrux ... I cant be so certain she isnt but I feel Harry is more likely ..
The reason I refuse to deny her completely is because of Voldemort looking a lot like a snake - we know he looked less human before he attacked the Potters - but the snake references occur mostly with the ressurected Voldemort - so there is still that thought that could be a manifestation and also side effect of using another living thing as a horcrux - also might explain why it is often said Riddle and Harry looked similar ...

SnarkologyMajor

21-12-2005, 02:18

Since Star Wars was mentioned, just for fun I'd like to add a couple more pieces to this thread:D In J.K.R.'s most recent interview she had this to say-

J.K.R.- Well a question I was asked early on was, "Was Voldemort really Harry's father?" And of course that's a Star Wars...."

S.F.-Exactly

J.K.R.-Question really isn't it? And, uh, no, he is NOT going to turn out to be Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker. He's not, IN A BIOLOGICAL SENSE, related to him at all.

Coupled with her other statement that careful readers will be able to correctly identify at least one horcrux, I get the feeling she's practically admitting H is a H.:D

Also has anyone noticed that in the S.S movie, the light that comes out of baby Harry's scar is identical to the light that comes out of the diary horcrux in the COS movie? Not canon-I know-still it's intriguing:D

Alz

21-12-2005, 12:04

OK - last point I have never noticed - but rest assured I will check out PS/SS (yes - must add PS so the rest of the world know what you mean!) and CoS to see what you mean :p

Yeah I picked up on that comment - before I got to thinking H is a H - so now we have this theory I can totally see the relevance in her statement ...
JKR said and also proved the bloodlines of the Gaunts ended with Riddle - he had no off-spring etc so any links would have to be outside of biological - so it is consistant that the 'bond' they share could be just as equal - as in they share something in common ... :D

Alz

21-01-2006, 10:55

Just wanted to add a couple of recent quotes I found in OoTP which I think might be relevant here ...

'I guessed, fifteen years ago,' said Dumbledore, ' when I saw the scar on your forehead, what it might mean. I guessed that it might be the sign of a connection forged between you and Voldemort,'

'..on those rare occasions when we had close contact, I thought I saw a shadow of him stir behind your eyes ...'

Seeker615

27-01-2006, 11:28

I am glad that other people think that Harry may be the last Horcrux. Right after I finished HBP I had a feeling that Voldemort accidently placed a piece of his soul in Harry.

I think it went down like this:

Voldemort went to kill Harry and was planning on making his final horcrux with Harry's murder. (Not sure what he was going to use to store it in) He offed James and then after Lilly got in the way he offed her too. So now his soul was split. He turned to Harry and and as he went to kill him the spell didn't work because of Lilly's protection. the spell rebounded on Voldy and his split soul went into Harry thus making the scar. (If you notice no one has any marks on them from the Avada Kedavra spell)

Now the question is does Voldy know that Harry has a piece of soul in him?

I think Snape will come into play at some point. I have this thought that Snape will know how to safely remove it from Harry without killing him.

Alz

28-01-2006, 02:43

Also interesting is that Dumbledore, I think, says he could have removed the scar but scar are helpful ... I'm sure he could have removed the scar but could he have removed the horcrux/soul piece?
I think not.
I'm not sure Voldemort realised but I think what happened in OoTP might have tipped him off ... he actually possessed Harry in the MoM (this also scared Dumbledore a lot ... not sure why) and while he was in there, I wonder if he felt the presence of himself?
But to contradict myself somewhat - it was explained that Voldemort looses control of his soul piece once extracted ... still, I think given how he could get into Harry's head and visa versa I think he got a good idea of it.
Still, it is irrelevant - because he still has to kill Harry and in doing so will remove a piece of his soul but will also rid him of the one person that can kill him ... like Dumbledore says over his hand, a worthy sacrifice for 1/6th of Voldemort - in Voldemort's case 1/6th of himself is worth sacrificing if he can remove his killer and still remain alive!

Ana C.B.Rodrigues

07-02-2006, 07:44

Well I thought that Voldemort wanted to turn him into a Horcrux, but I changed my mind Longtime ago...
First I don't believe Harry Is an Horcrux because if he was an Horcrux Voldemort Wouldn't try to kill him, unless he Is an Horcrux without Voldemort's Knowledge, but it seems to Unlikely, there must be some incantation to turn something into an Horcrux... but it's an interesting possibility considering that Nagini is considered one of his Horcruxes.
As You may remember the ring's soul was kept inside it..., so when it came out it has badly injured Dumbledore, however, when it comes to the diary's the sou was out of the Diary, only connected by a little part to the diary (as you may remember the soul said that the process of geting out the diary was achieved) so, thus it was still connected to the diary... it was too far from him to try to hnurt him... Well It's what i think.

my theory is that he thinks that killing Harry wil make him able to develop the srongest Horcrux ever done...

Alz

07-02-2006, 13:15

You have to remember, Dumbledore thinks Voldemort cannot feel it when he looses part of his soul ... this might also mean the same when he is in contact with his soul ...
I'm not convinced he actually knows Harry is an unwilling horcrux - I don't think Voldemort meant to do it and this was another freak occurrence of that night ... that is why he keeps trying to kill Harry ... but even if he does know Harry is a horcrux - but killing him, sure he looses a part of his soul - but also removes the person prophesied to kill him!
I still think he doesn't fully know or realise - but perhaps it is dawning on him, perhaps even a dismissible notion - Voldemort isn't that stupid!

Professor Sprout

22-05-2006, 05:46

Hello all,
I'm only a nooB, but I wanted to add my two cents worth! I'm sure Harry is a Horcrux. I think Voldy suspects, but perhaps he isn't yet sure. It all makes sense - why Harry had such trouble with occulemency, why his scar hurts, parseltongue, why he can see events from Voldemort's point of view (eg. in the Riddle house).
My prediction is, that at the end of book 7, after having found and dispached all the Horcruxes except one, Harry (probably with Hermione's help) will realise that he is the final Horcrux. He will realise that the only way to truly destroy Voldy is to simultaneously destroy himself. Perhaps during the book, the Voldy side to him becomes stronger, as the remaining bits of soul are destroyed. This helps Harry to see that there is only one way out. Harry will find a way to kill both himself and Voldemort and that will be the end of the story. Not sure of the location of the final denoument - but I think perhaps Hogwarts? A leap from the top of the astronomy tower has already been done (!), but it might be fitting if Harry goes the same way as Dumbledore.
I also wonder what it is that made Dumbledore decide he had to die? I am of the school of thought that his final pleading words to Severus "Severus, please..." were not pleas for his life, but pleas for death. The look of hate and revulsion on Snape's face were at the task Snape knew he had to perform, not caused by hatred for Dumbledore and all he stood for. I read that perhaps Dumbledore and Snape had made an unbreakable vow and that is why Dumbledore trusted Snape implicitly. Don't know about that, but it is neat.
Enough for now - I should be working!
Jo

Horcrux

22-05-2006, 07:03

Glad someone posted something like this:P

There are some quotes that actually justify if looked from a certain point of view.

Page 245 @ Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets:

"Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said, thunderstruck.
"It certainly seems so."

I am almost sure that he is a Horcrux :)

Alz

22-05-2006, 11:03

..and tacking onto this - was listening to OoTP again and I cant remember the chapter but Harry did reflect that Dumbledore had never really given him an adequate reason as to why he got some of Voldemort's powers ... once again brings me back to HiaH - if it was any other thing - wouldn't Dumbledore have given him a clear and concise reason for Harry having these part of Voldemort in him from that night of the attack?

Luna

22-05-2006, 11:49

Not if JKR wants us to keep this debate raging until the bitter end!!

Fortescue

22-05-2006, 14:42

Just wanted to add a couple of recent quotes I found in OoTP which I think might be relevant here ...

Okay, so I haven't been keeping up on things.

I guess I would have to ask by the quotes you placed from Dumbledore, you think that Dumbledore knew Harry was a Horcurx and that he would have to be destroyed in the end. The quote from Dumbledore:

OoTP The Lost Prophecy
'..on those rare occasions when we had close contact, I thought I saw a shadow of him stir behind your eyes ...'

I thought that referred to Dumbledore fearing that Voldemort could use the connection that Harry had known about for years, but Voldemort had only found out about when Mr. Weasley was attacked and he felt Harry in his mind.

I have never been able to figure out how anyone could think that Harry was a Horcrux. Why would Voldemort make Harry a Horcrux if his only intention since he had found out about the boys existence was to kill him? I don't believe he could have made Harry a Horcrux by accident because you have to say an encantation. I don't think that's possible when you are also saying Avada Kadavra. From the other things we have learned, what happened to the ring when Dumbledore destroyed the Horcrux inside and also cracked the ring, if Harry was indeed a Horcurx, I would think that the scar would indicate that he was a destroyed Horcrux, damaged during the destruction, just like the ring.

Um....I still don't buy it!

Professor Sprout

22-05-2006, 22:25

Morning all,

Why would Voldemort make Harry a Horcrux if his only intention since he had found out about the boys existence was to kill him? I don't believe he could have made Harry a Horcrux by accident because you have to say an encantation. I don't think that's possible when you are also saying Avada Kadavra.
Um....I still don't buy it!

Perhaps Voldemort attempted to make a Horcrux from some other object with the death of James Potter, said the incantation, and in the struggle that ensued, when Lily tried to protect Harry, accidentaly Horcruxed Harry. I guess if he killed Harry, he would get his piece of soul back and be able to turn something else into a Horcrux.
Although, of course, that would blow my other theory out of the water - that Voldy doesn't know that Harry is a Horcrux. Ok, so I've changed my opinion. Voldy does know that Harry is a Horcrux, and that is why he HAS to kill him - to get his piece of soul back. Imagine the exasparation, having a piece of your soul hanging around in your worst enemy!! No wonder he hates Harry! I like it!
:D
Cheers,
Sprout

Alz

23-05-2006, 10:56

Fortescue

23-05-2006, 14:30

OK - so here is the deal ...

Voldemort was going to the Potters to kill the person that was prophesised to kill him - he planned on using the death of Harry to seal his last Horcrux - the 7 part soul complete etc etc ...
Voldemort never intended to make Harry a horcrux - that wouldn't make too much sense - well in fact there is a certain amount of logic if you think about it (seal a piece of yourself in the only person that can kill you - thus unless they take their life you are always going to be around!) but Harry is a horcrux by accident ...
I think it is plausible and also likely that there is a modified version of AK that allows the split and seal needed to encase the torn soul - Voldemort was in a hurry - he wasn't about to take him time killing Harry and then sealing the horcrux - in fact what makes sense is perhaps this 'hybrid' spell Voldemort concocted was indeed the reason it all happened - perhaps this was a new spell he created that would do exactly the job - kill and seal!

JKR has either 'uber' played the red herrings on this to lead us this way - but there is more and more evidence to support Harry is a horcrux than not!

I would be very disappointed if JKR got all the way to the end and then revealed some new spell of Voldemort's that he used to try and kill Harry and make him a Horcrux at the same time. I think she gives too many clues to end the story that way and there is something somewhere in the story so far that would be a hint to what happened to Harry with the scar and all.

Besides, by the time Voldemort got to Harry Potter, he surely had already made his seven Horcruxes. We are talking about fifty years or so. I think he would have managed to find seven objects he deemed worth to house a bit of his soul and we know he didn't need to kill the Potters to hit seven murders. He had made that mark years before Godric's Hollow.

Sirius Potter Fan

23-05-2006, 20:01

Besides, by the time Voldemort got to Harry (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1670#) Potter, he surely had already made his seven Horcruxes. We are talking about fifty years or so. I think he would have managed to find seven objects he deemed worth to house a bit of his soul and we know he didn't need to kill the Potters to hit seven murders. He had made that mark years before Godric's Hollow. Well you see, I used to think that very thing as well myself, even used it as you have to refute this whole silly idea . . . and it could still be a valid argument, but we argue against Dumbledore himself then . . .

However, if my calculations are correct, Voldemort was still at least one Horcrux short of his goal of six when he entered your parents' house with the intention of killing you.
He seems to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths. You would certainly have been that. He believed that in killing you, he was destroying the danter the prophecy had outlined. He believed he was making himself invincible. I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death.

So that means it quite likely that he had not yet made his sixth Horcrux . . . NOW. . . More . . .
As we know, he failed. After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux. She underlines the Slytherin connection, which enhances Lord Voldemort's mystique; I think he is perhaps as fond of her as he can be of anything; he certainly likes to keep her close, and he seems to have an unusual amount of control over her, even for a Parselmouth.
So . . . AS WE KNOW, HE FAILED If Dumbledore is correct then Harry cannot be a Horcrux!

Fortescue

24-05-2006, 11:31

AS WE KNOW, HE FAILED

I don't want you to think that I'm leaning toward Harry being a Horcrux, because I'm not, but when I read your quotes SPF, my mine immediately went to when Dumbledore told Harry he was capable of making mistakes, but they were decidedly huger.

It would be a good time for JKR to slip in one of Dumbledore's huge oversights. We know he had to have made one or two that we don't yet know about, and more then likely, if it was huge, it probably related to Horcruxes!

Alz

25-05-2006, 13:06

I think after listening to OoTP from start to end over the past week that it stands alone as the biggest indicator that Harry is a Horcrux - I really do believe that is the best evidence and I urge those who haven't read it recently to re-read it with that in mind - nearly every chapter has these 'swipes' towards it!
Now - this could be a master class by JKR if it is a red herring because she has built it for just that ... it reminds me a lot of the RAB debates - it is obvious when you know the premise and re-read the text - seems blatant ... but yet there is those it doesn't sit well with.
The facts pointing towards HiaH is pretty big - and it isn't down to interpretation either - the clues speak for themselves.
Most telling is Dumbledore's lack of facts on the very subject - Harry even considers this in OoTP - Dumbledore who brings reason to everything has never come up with a decent explanation as to why Harry is so linked to Voldemort!

This isn't speculation - it is pure fact - anyone can see so obvious that Harry shares parts of Voldemort - that is fact, Dumbledore even says as much - but HiaH is the most logical explanation ..
As I said - if this is a JKR red herring - it is awesome!

SnarkologyMajor

25-05-2006, 15:14

Talk about weird timing Alz-I just now starting to try and just read OOtP(not slueth,haha) and I just started to laugh at some of the clues she put in right from the first chapter. It's not 'til you really understand that HiaH that you can see them, but after well.. how's these two lines-

pg. 4-Harry felt as if his head had been split in two...
pg. 5-Then as the pain in the top of Harry's head gave a particularly nasty throb, Uncle Vernon yelped and released Harry as though he had recieved a nasty shock.

That's just a tiny microcosim of the clues she gives-but she never comes out and makes it obvious to the casual reader, you have to work for it:D So I agree, if this is a red-herring, I cannot imagine how she going to explain any of it:p

Sirius Potter Fan

25-05-2006, 19:31

As I said - if this is a JKR red herring - it is awesome! Well . . . she is Awesome! we already knew that didn't we?! We still have to consider the effects of the curse backfiring, and priori incantatem. No one other than Harry has ever survived the curse, so no one knows what effects could come of it. I think alot of this debate hinges on just how much we trust Dumbledores wisdom.

Lily

26-05-2006, 01:15

I would've thought that to impart part of your soul onto another thing (and hence make it a Horcrux) there would be a special technique, a special way, procedure to do so. It is clear from what is written in the books that Voldemort's aim was to kill Harry (as he thought he was a threat to him) - from the moment Voldemort cast the Avada Kedavra spell (the green light that Harry saw) the spell rebounded off Harry and onto Voldemort. And that was why Voldemort lost his powers... having lost his powers, he couldn't have cast any more spells to make Harry a Horcrux as well.

If Harry is a Horcrux, when could Voldemort have had the chance to do so?

I don't know, I don't want to have a skeptic... but... :o

Alz

27-05-2006, 01:54

This is a very good point actually and it is something I have been struggling with myself.
Horace told Riddle there was a spell - he didn't know it - but was what was required to seal the ripped soul piece.
This is what lead to debate about a modified version of AK that also a horcrux to be created as well as killing the person - that can be the only logical answer for now - but I am sure there is a twist involving Voldemort, Lily and Harry.
I am quite sure that Harry is a reluctant horcrux - because if Voldemort knew what he was doing and did it - he wouldn't try and kill Harry now - just leave him alone and by the reciprocal nature of Harry being a Horcrux and also the only person to kill him - he was quite safe.
He intended to seal a horcrux with Harry's death - number 6 creating the 7 part soul - he never intended to make Harry a horcrux.
I really do believe book 5 screams this the loudest - so many references to it!
Sadly I cant give full factual evidence to support it other than the books and what was being said but it makes sense on so many different levels.

Fortescue

27-05-2006, 03:48

I checked the site but didn't really see a thread we already have where this might fit. It is closest here without getting off topic too far.

I was reading the chapter on Horcruxes again looking for something and read the Pensieve moment when Harry and Dumbledore listened to Slughorn's true memory of his conversation with Riddle.

In the memory, Slughorn talked about how the subject of Horcurxes were banned from Hogwarts.

HBP, Horcurxes pg 499."But all the same, Tom . . . keep it quiet, what I've told - that's to say, what we've discussed. People wouldn't like to think we've been chatting about Horcruxes. It's a banned subject at Hogwarts, you know . . . Dumbledore's particularly fierce about it . . ."

When Dumbledore first tells Harry about Voldemort and his Horcruxes I got the feeling that it was a relatively knew discovery for Dumbledore, yet Slughorn made note that the subject was banned from Hogwarts and that Dumbledore was particularly fierce about it. Dumbledore was not the Headmaster at the time, Dippet was. Dumbledore obviously knew a lot about Horcruxes even fifty years before Harry stepped foot in Hogwarts. How was it that Dumbledore knew so much about Horcurxes and if Harry was in fact a Horcurx himself, I would think Dumbledore would impart that knowledge to Harry. He seemed to be being open with Harry, more open then he had ever been before, yet if Harry was indeed a Horcurx and Dumbledore had any suspicions to that end, I would think he would have mentioned it before he died.

SnarkologyMajor

27-05-2006, 04:46

You make a very logical point Forte:D -How exactly would you tell Harry such a thing though? Dumbledore withheld information, particularly the prophecy until Book 5-even though Harry asked him in Book 1-because Dumbledore did not feel that Harry was ready to deal w/the prophecy. I can't imagine how you would figure out when the right time to tell a teenager(child) that they are carrying one of their parents murderer's horcruxes inside their head, the whole of Harry's journey has been about him getting to the point of understanding important things that alot of adults never truly understand-that there are things bigger than just him, more important than him. This is something he just started to come to terms with in the end of Book 6 and will continue into the end.-because in order for him to truly end Tom Riddle/Voldemort's reign of terror, Harry will have to be more courageous, more self-sacrificing and unselfish than anyone really has the right(hope perhaps but..)to ask of another. Dumbledore knows this I think and hinted at it in the end of Books 1,4, and 5-he loves Harry and knows what has to be, yet the pain this will cause is something to put off for a later date. I agree that it would seem more logical to tell Harry everything, but as a parent I can understand the strong emotional desire to try to keep him innocent for awhile longer. Maybe this is one of his huge mistakes, but it is a very human one with the best of intentions,no?

Fortescue

27-05-2006, 11:52

The only problem I have with that is Dumbledore knew he was going to die, one way or another. Being a parent or simply responsible for someone you love also means you have responsibilities to that person. Dumbledore knew his death was coming and unless JKR starts out the book with some otherworldy message from Dumbledore to Harry telling him he is a Horcrux, (which would seem a bit cheesy to me,) I would think Dumbledore would have laid his love aside so Harry would be prepared for that type of shock. I mean, if he were a Horcurx, he would have been walking around since he was one-year-old with a bit of the wizard in him that wanted him dead. I would think in all those years, if Dumbledore knew the truth, he would have figured out a way to destroy Voldemort's soul bits without destroying the object that held them. If he loved Harry as much as it seemed, he would have pulled out all stops to assure that Harry didn't have to be destroyed in order for Voldemort to die!

Alz

28-05-2006, 11:43

At the end of the day - Dumbledore still had his plan ....
I think the overall plan is to get Harry to the point he can destroy Voldemort - a la prophecy - and I think Dumbledore has done this ...
To tell Harry that his success is based on him laying his life down isn't going to positively motivate Harry all too much - in fact it would do the opposite.
I think Dumbledore knew all along - and that is why he has never really told Harry why he has these links to Voldemort - heck says as much in the books - Dumbledore never gave Harry a real reason for the connection and Dumbledore wasn't offering it up.
Even when Dumbledore told Harry 'everything' at the end of OoTP - he didn't ... he reflected back to the questions Harry asked at age 11 and chose to answer one of them - why Voldemort was after him ...

Dumbledore has a plan he knows needs to succeed - he has done his part in getting Harry to the age of becoming a man - now Harry has to face his fate on his own - and work out for himself why he and Voldemort as so linked and look back at sacrifice and do the same for others that others have done for him!

Dumbledore has never lied to Harry over this - just never told him the whole truth including his own worse fears ...

halliemei

28-05-2006, 12:03

Not only that, but I'm sure Dumbledore is thinking "what if I'm wrong and Harry doesn't have the lay down his life?" That puts a lot of pressure on him to decide whether to tell Harry. I think he handled it the only way he could - gave Harry the idea that a living being can be a horcrux (though it's a bad idea), taught Harry the information he knew about protections around horcruxes and that there should be 7 pieces of soul. That's the way I think DD handled this - he knows Harry is not only smart himself but that he'll depend on Ron and Hermione to help figure this out. That, of course, leads to another theory of mine that perhaps I'll write up somewhere else.

Sirius Potter Fan

29-05-2006, 05:32

Another argument here for HiNaH. First Alz. I just can't fall for this "special" modified verson of the AK that would kill and seal a Horcrux at the same moment. First that doest' seem to Voldemortish. I don't think he would see a need to "streamline" the process that he seems to enjoy so much. It's not like he was making a Horcrux with every murder he commited right? So why create a "special" spell? Also, if he were trying to use that modified spell when he tried to kill Harry, would it not have made Voldemort his own Horcrux when it backfired? Another thing . . . Can you cast a spell to create a Horcrux before you have actualy commited the murder you wish to create it with?

OK, that said, now this . . .

ALL of the HP books are written from Harry's perspective, even flashbacks are done with Harry seeing things in a pensive, so how do we see anything that happens after Harry sacrifices himself to destroy the Horcrux inside him?

Fortescue

29-05-2006, 08:49

The beginning of SS/PS was actually done with a different perspective. We saw through the eyes of an unknown narrator. We saw the Dursley's going about their business the day after Halloween. Harry was only one year old at the time. We saw Dumbledore discussing what happened to Harry the night his parents died. Maybe JKR plans to end the series that way too!

Alz

29-05-2006, 11:18

Another argument here for HiNaH. First Alz. I just can't fall for this "special" modified verson of the AK that would kill and seal a Horcrux at the same moment. First that doest' seem to Voldemortish. I don't think he would see a need to "streamline" the process that he seems to enjoy so much. It's not like he was making a Horcrux with every murder he commited right? So why create a "special" spell?

Actually I am gonna throw that back at you as more weight for the premise that Voldemort sealed Horcruxes using a modified spell - otherwise each time he killed he would be ripping his soul away and would have less control over the implanting of a Horcrux!

Just wanted to add - good point Forte - might go well with the thread on sacrifice I added!

SnarkologyMajor

30-05-2006, 09:59

I am beginning to think that what Voldemort tried to kill Harry w/that night-was not Avada Kedavra at all. We are taking Barty Crouch Jr.'s statement at face value here and I don't remember Dumbledore saying that Voldemort tried to use the Avada Kedavra curse (going to double-check that). The thing is, a horcrux-creation spell would obviously kill since the purpose is to split your own soul w/the destruction of another's soul. Have we ever been told in canon that Avada Kedavra is the "only" killing curse? I know I'm splitting hairs here, but if Voldemort used an altogether different spell/curse-this could explain why Lily sacrificed herself more clearly-she knew of a counter to a horcrux-creation spell?

Alz

30-05-2006, 12:06

See my reasoning is based on the fact killing rips the soul - if each time Voldemort did an AK - he killed enough people to make an army of Inferious - as such those ripped pieces of soul would be tatters ...
By taking what SPF said as we have speculated - the times he wanted to create a horcrux he would use this special mix spell to trap the tatters into a more cohesive soul extraction - thus near on equally splitting his soul ... does that make sense?

Sirius Potter Fan

30-05-2006, 14:19

First SM we were told in the begining of book 4 that there are 3 unforgivable curses one of which of course is "The Killing Curse" it is mentioned just that way, not "one of the killing curses" or any other way that could entail the existance of another killing curse. If there were another killing curse, I am certain that it would be unforgiveable as well, but there are only 3 unforgivables.

This of course does not mean that Voldemort could not have been clever enough to combine it with another curse as has been suspected above, but as I have previously said, I don't believe he did so. for one, if he were using the "modified" curse to kill Harry and seal a Horcrux at the same time, it would not have placed the soul piece in Harry, but in the object, or . . . with the backfire, perhaps back in Voldemort himself.

And Alz . . . all I can say is, I can not wait to be here grinning:D after book 7 is out and . . .
HiNaH!:cool:

SnarkologyMajor

31-05-2006, 01:56

I'm still working through the canon on this-but, I feel this may be another case where JKR used her words "very carefully" and worth exploring:D I've always had a problem w/the Avada Kedavra being unforgivable-if it is the only killing curse, since it is used by aurors and perhaps in self-defence. Also-if a wizard uses it on a particularly nasty beast (such as those in FB&WTFT) is it unforgivable? Also on another thread we were discussing the possibilty of another killing curse because of the spell the deatheater used on Hermione-I'm not totally convinced in this yet, just exploring some different angles....

notposs

31-05-2006, 04:53

Well it's probably like a gun in our world; there are disputes on weather to be allowed to use one in self defense. But we are certainly not allowed to attack someone with it. And about the animals, farmers use guns to put down animals that are sick.

SnarkologyMajor

31-05-2006, 07:39

Before I get sidetracked by the moral issues involved here (Although good-I think we have a thread on that complicated subject:D ) I wanted to point out that I've thought that the modified AK made perfect sense for awhile now-thing is SPF brings up a very good point-if this modified AK spell back-fired, then why wouldn't it end up back in Voldemort? Even though I am absolutely convinced that Harry's scar is a horcrux-I think we have to figure out the exact trajectory of how this happened. With what limited knowledge we have of the AK, it just seems plausible that Voldemort used a spell completely different. One that behaves in a different manner so to speak. If the spell originates w/Voldemort-is directed at Harry, it would seem that Harry's soul would have to pass back through Voldemorts(splitting it) whereby the torn piece could then be moved to an object and Harry's soul passes on. If this is the case then it would seem that Lily's sacrifice somehow prevented Harry's soul from ever departing-so then what? This is rather difficult to explain-it somehow needs an illustration doesn't it? I feel like JKR is going to need the explanation to be simpler-hence why we may be talking about an entirely different spell altogether. I just really have the sense that I'm missing something subtle here-but perhaps I'm just making it harder than it is, hmm..?

Sirius Potter Fan

31-05-2006, 09:17

I feel like JKR is going to need the explanation to be simpler-hence why we may be talking about an entirely different spell altogether. Now that SM, is probably the best statement I think I have seen in this entire thread!!! (maybe even the whole board) In trying to anylize things and try to figure out the future, we have complicated things incredibly: creating a New "modified" AK to suit a premise that has no real factual support to begin with, only a hunch. I thik we have overanylized many things on this board. But when it comes down to it, what we are looking at is a book initialy intended for Children and Youth. The final "truth" of the book will have to be understandable for the audience initialy intended (not to mention easy enough to explain in a sadly short movie). Harry is going to have enough on his hands to find Horcruxes and destroy them. That plus all the other loose ends that need tying up will already make for a long book. Do we realy need JKR to throw in a complex situation shuch as Harry himself being a Horcrux?

Alz

31-05-2006, 11:25

Fact less?
Hard to understand?
I'm shocked!
The premise is very easy to understand and the facts are in the 1001 comments JKR has made about that 'UNEXPLAINABLE' link between Voldemort and Harry ...
*shakes head* - if I said I wasn't disappointed by your comments there SPF, I would be lying ...

Weasleyfanforever

31-05-2006, 12:20

The thing about JKR quotes is that if you can find 1001 that hint at Harry being a Horcrux, you can find just as many that hint that he is not. That is why this is all considered speculation. What we all have here is us bringing evidence to support our beliefs, whether it be that he is or is not. I don't think belittling ideas is a positive thing for anyone, disagreeing and debating is what this is all about, and bringing your own counter-active evidence if you disagree is more than okay, in fact, it's expected.

That being said, I don't think he is one. I am not sure if I have posted this before or not, but there is a pasage in HBP, when Dumbledore reveals to Harry that Voldemort planned to make a horcrux with his death. I don't think he would have changed his mind on a whim and used Lily or James, they weren't the important people, Harry was, and he used significant deaths. Also, from what we know, making a horcrux is very complex, and from what Harry has heard in his mind when he hears that fateful night, the only incantations he hears are AK.

Alz

31-05-2006, 13:13

First off - discussion forums are about debate and discussion full stop - it is the easiest thing in the world to enter a post and say no or yes - slightly harder to make a case for your thoughts - even harder if you can see, debate and reason for both sides of the argument ... if the threads were just a yes or no question - where is the debate and what it the point of a forum for discussion.
No-one is 100% right or wrong till JKR says - we can only speculate with the data in the books - and matter of opinion is subjective to the person as it is tainted with their beliefs ...

That being said - Dumbledore believes Voldemort planned to make his last horcrux with Harry's death ... Believes and Planned stand out in that ...

For parity - I don't have 100% proof for this - I can see why people think it isn't so - as I said earlier - this could be the mother of all red herrings by JKR ... and let's face it she isn't beyond it ...

SnarkologyMajor

31-05-2006, 15:50

Well I must apologize for starting a bit of a firestorm:eek: That wasn't my intention-I'm just trying to really nail down some specifics (kind of reviewing too:D ) on how Harry ended up with one of Voldmort's horcruxes. I agree Alz-if we want to really make guesses that end up coming even close to what happens, we have to look at both sides and then start eliminating. Now everyone is really making some great points and even though I am convinced that the connection between the two is that HiaH(perhaps we should change it too HSiaH-Harry's Scar), because of the many, many, clues that she's given us throughout all 6 Books-I still can't quite figure out exactly the how of it, making it logical to look at why so many don't believe it. One idea was that the locket Horcrux was somehow used by someone other than his parents-it does make some sort of weird sense that if a horcrux just happened to be in the vicinity of baby Harry-this would cause a very bizarre set of circumstances. Also JKR made a point of saying that young wizards can do some powerful involuntary magic-if they are frightened or upset, which certainly reminded me of baby Harry. Nothing would frighten or upset a child more than their parents being murdered, so did Harry perform some involuntary magic that cause Voldemort's spell to go haywire? I'm not saying that I think JKR would write a story in which the child was ultimately responsible for the terrible thing which happens to him, I just wonder if it's not a combination of A. Too many people involved B. One not knowing or controlling what another is doing C. Very good intentions gone very bad-Anyway I honestly don't think we can really pick apart her clues too much, because she really is a master at hiding multiple clues even in just one sentence-She hides the clues in the words themselves w/many literary tricks that I would say far exceed any author I've read. She has given mixed answers on who she is ultimately writing for, in fact has said for herself first (I think as a 25 yr. old) -On the surface is a great story which children can love and be inspired by, yet under the surface seeths a fantastic mystery novel which she gives all the necessary clues (yet making it impossible to guess the outcome) which any adult who loves a great mystery will try to guess and discuss-we have a rare opportunity here which no other future readers will have (once the books are finished) and I love the opportunity to hear all the different ideas from everyone:D Now that I've digressed completely-still wondering if Voldemort could have performed something other than what we have been led to believe....

Alz

01-06-2006, 11:04

I posted a new thread last night called Possible Deception? (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3351) - and I agonised over if I should include any references to HiaH because ultimately I was investigating further if indeed what we are lead to believe that night actually happened - and I think this links nicely into this theory but I'm not comfortable killing a great spec because it contains the data on HiaH ...

But this isn't a full, factual representation that stands testament to HiaH - in actual fact I like to think of it as a thread we can fuel the theory or point out glaring holes - and even I think there are holes in it ...

In order to get anywhere near Harry becoming a Horcrux - we would have to work out exactly how it was possible considering the facts we have - as I said above there is heavy doubt in my mind that the events played the way we have been led to believe - it seems too neat and tidy ... but on the off chance and dealing with the facts we have - we have to get from James being killed, to Lily being asked to stand aside - her stepping between Harry and Voldemort - her being AK'ed and then Voldemort proceeding to attack Harry - and the killing curse backfiring leaving Harry with a scar that is tuned to Voldemort FM - and a spiritual Voldemort existence ... I hope that is an adequate reflection of the facts from the fateful night?
We then have to consider the fact that AK cannot be blocked etc - yet it was deflected - it leaving no mark - yet we have a marked Harry and a destroyed house ...

SnarkologyMajor

01-06-2006, 13:52

Hey good try there Alz:D I know what you mean though-how the heck do we separate the two things? Clearly what we have been led into taking as God's truth about that night, are really many assumptions-which by the way JKR wants us to keep:D :D Heck why do we even believe fake Mad-Eye's(BC jr) statements about the Avade Kedavra-it's not as though she couldn't write that Barty Crouch Jr. was lying, misinformed, half-baked, insane-well you get the idea. It's a rather simple literary trick-and yet so effective. Sorting the truth out when everything is through Harry's eyes is tough, it seems that we can definately see the truth when JKR uses a pensieve....

notposs

01-06-2006, 14:21

I think I've found something that might help with HSiaH take a look:

Cathedral: Don't want to rune the ending, but will we be finding out more about the significance of the shape of Harry (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59&highlight=dumbledore+guilty#)'s scar in future books?
JK Rowling replies -> The shape is not the most significant aspect of that scar, and that's all I'm going to say!

oooooooooo

Alz

02-06-2006, 12:55

Yeah we have come across that before as well - intriguing isn't it?

One of the HINAH folks - if Harry was sealed as a horcrux - why would he get marked with a distinctive scar?
If Nagini is a horcrux - she doesn't have any 'notable' physical deformities?

SnarkologyMajor

03-06-2006, 01:16

Good point Alz:D As for the scar itself, when Dumbledore says that even if he could remove it (Bk. 1), he wouldn't-and that scars can be useful, he has one himself above his left knee-this is the exact same place Odysseus had a scar that is used to give away his true identity in Homer's Odyssey. Knowing JKR's love of the classics-I doubt this is just a coincidence. I think we can agree that Harry's scar is key to unlocking the truth about exactly what happened to him, and there are secrets about Dumbledore yet to be revealed....

Sirius Potter Fan

03-06-2006, 06:54

First, I want to say sorry if I was a bit harsh in my last reply, I wasn't feeling my best that day, I have been in the hospital the last few days with a kidney stone.

I just want to mention that what is happening on this thread, is quite similar to what has happened with scripture for centuries. Why do you think there are so many different religions? Why are there so many different "denominations" in Christianity alone when we all use the same "book". It comes from the desire to prove what you think to be right. So many have had an idea, then they aproach scripture looking for the"proof" of what they believe, and since they are looking for it, they are inclined to read into what they see, what they want to believe, then seeing it as their proof.

I think that on both sides of HiaH that we have done that, we want to prove our theory, so we can look at one passage of the book, one side can "prove" their argument with it, but, then the other side can also look at the same passage from another standpoint, and "prove" theirs. Actually I think it quite cunning that JKR can do that in her writting. It's no wonder that she takes so long to complete a book. Just one thing left to keep in mind here . . . how many of us were convinced that Snape was a vampire before JKR shot that one down? She likes to do that to us doesn't she!

Alz

03-06-2006, 11:26

Hope you are feeling better SPF!
It can be a real thin line between arguing a point and then being totally dismissive of others thoughts and feelings on the subject - I just wanted to follow up on Wheezy's great comments on the matter of discussion and POV ... we are all cool now honestly!

SM - can you provide a little more info on the Odysseus co,mment you made - have me intrigued ... especially not being all who we think they are ... DiE baby DiE! ;) :D

Going back to Dumbledore's comment - could he really have removed it or was he just trying to deflect Harry's attention somewhat?
I mean say HiaH - and the scar is the Horcrux - could Dumbledore really have removed it?
I would have thought it would be much harder than that to extract a soul portion from a living host?
Does anyone think the 'in essence divided' comment seemed to follow the thoughts on this theory?
I find the most intriguing part the symbology of it - snakes splitting etc ...

SnarkologyMajor

03-06-2006, 16:59

Yes SPF-I hope you feel much better soon:D kidney stones are horrid:( By the way I completely agree w/your comments on the Bible and religion. I honestly didn't feel that your comments were harsh-just thought we were all having some lively debate! You should hear the extremely loud debates my daughter and I get into, she thinks I get carried away with wild theories:D Which of course is true:D But it's great fun!

You know I have to say that even though I really do think that Harry's scar ended up an accidental horcrux that night-is it really even a horcrux anymore? No, at least not in the sense that Voldemort ever intended it to be-it has been in the possession of a person filled w/such inate goodness(the antithesis of Voldemort's evil) that it has been changed by all accounts as to no longer be reconizable or even a part of Voldemort anymore. At least this is just my interpretation (I could be wrong of course) There was a thread I started awhile back that dealt this idea-The Power to Vanquish, but I just realized that even though these were my thoughts on it-I've never really articulated that have I? I should work on being as clear as possible-not always great at that:eek:

Alz-I should have realized you would think DiE w/that:D That wasn't even what I was thinking of but now you mention it-I guess I can see how it could be used as evidence for that. From what I remember Odysseus was recognized by his servant whom he quieted because he didn't want Penelope to know he was back yet-but ultimately his scar was what identified him as the rightful King. Any one else who remembers any other details, love to hear them 'cause it's been a long while. I do relate "in essence divided" to the entire subject-my guess here is that Dumbledore misinterpreted what was divided. I believe there is enough canon evidence to now know that Dumbledore knew about Voldemort's horcruxes during OOtP, when he looked at his instrument and said "in essence divided"-was he thinking about Voldemort and Nagini(who he believed to be a horcrux)? Or was he thinking about Voldemort and Harry(whom he may or may not know has a horcrux)? That's another debate eh....

Alz

04-06-2006, 03:31

You know SM - taking what you said above about that piece of soul being polluted by Harry's goodness - wonder what the heck would happen if you are able to re-absorb that bit of removed soul and indeed Voldemort took it back?
This is constant with a few threads we have here - Voldemort being made to feel the contra to his actions - isn't it possible he might want to remove that piece of soul from Harry when he finds out it is in there - perhaps that is how Harry rid's himself and brings about the downfall of Voldemort?

On your Odysseus comment - wonder if indeed Dumbledore did pull a flanker with him dying and his new form will be discovered because of the scar on his knee - that would fit in nicely as well huh?

Sirius Potter Fan

04-06-2006, 19:36

OK, I can't believe this is coming from me . . . and . . . don't take it to mean I'm convinced by any means! But just supposing if Harry is a Horcrux . . . with what SM said, say . . . Harry has found and destroyed all of the other Horcruxes, not knowing he was one himself, perhaps thinking that he has another to find yet, when he comes unexpectedly face to face with Voldemort. battle ensues, and amazingly Harry sends the killing blow (however it is done) to Voldemort . . . well, then Voldemort is left as only the peice of soul inside Harry . . . the piece that has in SM's opinion been affected by Harry's goodness. . . Is Voldemort "reborn" again knowing not just all that he has done, but now feeling unimaginable regret, and desiring to make amends for all of his crimes? . . . OK . . . way out there I know, but it just hit me reading the last two posts.

Alz

05-06-2006, 11:16

Yep - would buy that for a dollar!
It makes sense in a way doesn't it - if Harry has infected a piece of Voldemort's soul - if it is the only piece that is left intact - that the rebirth or sustained after product - be it Voldemort avec body or Voldemort sans body - that the soul piece used to keep his self intact could be infected with something he has never known or felt - love and compassion!
The result of this polluted soul now being part of someone who has never known these things would drive the dude crazy - kind of fits in with some discussions on how we feel Harry and Voldemort will battle each other.
This way - Harry walks away with no real blood on his hands ... I think that would be the desired effect moralistically right?

notposs

05-06-2006, 11:31

It just does not fit for me with this story surrounded by death, evil and bad things for the big v, the evilest person of his time to turn good hold hands with Harry and skip merrily away into the sunset.
I think there’s more chance that it will end in bloodshed. Besides “neither can live while the other survives”

Sirius Potter Fan

06-06-2006, 04:57

I think there’s more chance that it will end in bloodshed. Besides “neither can live while the other survives”
well that's kind of the sneaky trick in the possibility here. . . In that state of altered persona, Voldemort would no longer be truly Voldemort would he? The true evil Voldemort would have ceased to exist and the new reborn. I think this could even possibly happen without Harry having to "kill" Voldemort. What if Voldemort somehow realizes part of his soul resides in Harry, simply tries to remove that piece and reclaim it, thus still receiving the "infected" soul and not knowing what would happen untill too late . . . sort of like a puter virus. . . But, either way there will be no running off into the sunset . . . even with a "redeemed" Voldemort, the wizarding community I don't think would allow him to live, the first auror, widow, or loved one of anyone he's killed would be more than happy to put an end to him, not believing in a change . . . but of course . . . HiNaH any way:p

SnarkologyMajor

06-06-2006, 14:41

What you have described SPF is what I would consider a very satisfying end-I'm not sure about Voldemort making amends, but for him to fully realize what he's done to himself and to all those he's killed and made suffer-and here's the kicker-make the Choice to Die! Choose to pass on and allow Harry to live, to me this would be the ultimate in a redemption story. In the end-JKR says it's all about choices. Voldemort can never make amends for what he has done, but if he was made to understand(which Dumbledore says he has always failed at) that there are things worse than death-and in the end he makes the choice to die, it's really the only way out of the prophecy that he set into motion. At least the only way out that might give Harry a chance:D I know this is fully optimistic, but then I really am a kid at heart-I like tales w/a happy ending! I feel that Voldemort has already felt some of the affect that Harry has had on his piece of soul when he tried to possess him at the end of OOtP. Just like the two memories that Harry has of the night at Godric's Hollow, when Voldemort tries to possess Harry-it's difficult to tell exactly which one of them is feeling pain beyond pain. I believe it talks about two parts being fused together, unable to tell where one begins and another ends(something along those lines). I think that Voldemort began to feel and understand the change that Harry has had on his horcrux-to Voldemort it is like his soul has been infected with love! It also seemed like he may have tapped into the memory of exactly how it felt to be ripped from his body (that particular memory seems to reside in the horcrux in Harry), I guess that would be his worst memory. Question is-if Voldemort figured some of this out in OOtP, what do you suppose his plan to counter it would be? We know he is staying out of Harry's head throughout HBP-also I will gander a guess and say that Dumbledore probably figured this out! Would the best plan on his side be to make Voldemort believe that he is dead? Did Voldemort breach Hagwarts at the end on HBP, or did Dumbledore and Snape set a trap to make him believe that he has control of Hogwarts? These are obviously hypothetical questions-but both Dumbledore and Voldemort are the wizards w/all the power-you have to figure that they both have some pretty devious schemes up their sleeves, that we the reader just don't know about yet:D And no-that wasn't a DiE statement:p I just believe that Dumbledore is Alot more proactive in his plans to destroy Voldemort than anyone thinks that he is, everyone is lulled into thinking that he just believes the best of everyone to the point of niave(sp?) folly-and I'm not buying it. This is also why when he says he trusts Snape-I do believe he has a good reason.

DumbledoresArmy

09-06-2006, 18:44

If we are to take certain things about the "Prophesy", Harry could not be a Horcrux. It is made obviouse that Voldemort went to great lenghts to located the Potters, who were in hiding. If Harry were in fact a Horcrux, the prophesy would be "neither can live unless both live or one lives but not the other,".....in fact that doesn't even really work. The only way it would make sence is that Voldemort's plan was to make Harry a Horcrux from the begining. Thus completely covering himself from the prophesy. Voldomort could not be destroyed if the part of his soul lived on in Harry, and if Harry were destroyed, "The One" would be removed from the picture, and thus the prophesy again beaten. I dont believe that Harry is a Horcrux. Although I will admit, the Way Dumbledore always list the suspected hiding places for the Horcruxes, and added "and one more," is very suspiciouse.

SM, I agree with you also about Dumbledore and Snape. Honestly, I have always thought from the begining that if Snape was truely bad, it would severly tarnish the books. Dumbeldores wisdom, love and faith in people has been such a BIG theme, and is SO important to the book. A poor and as you said, nieve overlooking of Snape would greatly disapoint me.

Alz

10-06-2006, 12:06

SM makes the killer point - If Voldemort could have a whole soul and also something he seemed born without - love - could he have become what he did?
Give him emotion's that he has never known or felt - force them into him and make him deal with them - I think he would choose death rather than living life with these polluted feelings - these alien feelings ...
I think that is why JKR impressed upon us that he has never known or felt love - he is devoid of positive emotion - and why he couldnt stay inside Harry in OoTP - once the love kicked in he flipped out and had to leave the body ...
I can see more and more how a polluted peice of soul, infected with the goodness of Harry - would really bring about the demise of Voldemort - and I can see him getting 'whatever' is inside Harry - whatever he left in Harry that night - and taking a piece of Harry with it - and finally being made to feel love.

Prophecy says one must die at the hands of the other - because neither can live while the other survives - I think Dumbledore did his best to explain part two - they cant live because Voldemort will always be seeking Harry till he kills him - Harry could walk away, Voldemort cannot or will not - Voldemort made Harry hsi biggest enemy - he created the person and gave him the tools ...

halliemei

10-06-2006, 17:07

Actually, I think that DA makes the point exactly -- you don't MAKE a prophesy come true, it just does. VM didn't hear (according to Dumbledore and we assume Snape) the part that neither can live while the other survives, so the whole he did it on purpose thing to make it work doesn't fit. BUT, if Harry is a horcrux (which, like ALZ, I do -- actually the scar probably), it still works. Neither can have an actual life while the other survives. If Harry is eliminated (God forbid), no one stands in the way of Voldemort, so he lives -- he is the only one (per the prophesey) who can banish him. If Voldemort is not eliminated, then Harry will be hunted forever -- and more importantly, if the scar (or Harry) is a horcrux then Harry can't live until Voldemort is fully eliminated because of the horcrux within him.

Man --- that made a lot more sense before I write it down. :confused: :confused:

DumbledoresArmy

10-06-2006, 18:06

Sirius Potter Fan

10-06-2006, 19:18

H, to add a bit to what you just said. IF Hary, or the scar was a Horcrux, his death would be required to seal the fate of Voldemort, simultaneously negating the prophesy. AND is it logical to believe that a horcrux would exist without the owner knowing? If not, can we believe Voldemort would be so intent on destroying a bit of his own soul?
Well, see, that is part of my argument . . . even if Voldemort had "accidentaly" made Harry a Horcrux that night, I can't see how he wouldn't have realized it.

DumbledoresArmy

11-06-2006, 06:06

SPF, I agree. To theorize that a Horcrux was made accidentally, I could accept. One made accidentaly WITHOUT the creators knowlege I find very unlikeley. And on a much more "this world" level, the fact there is only one book left, and there are 5 Horcruxes to find, The mystery of RDB to solve, a multitude of death eaters AND Voldemort to destroy, leaves me thinking a huge curve like Harry being a Horcrux is unlikley.

Alz

11-06-2006, 10:11

Ummm - you are forgetting - Voldemort is unaware of his Horcruxes once they are created - this was proved after the Diary was destroyed - Dumbledore says Voldemort was unaware ...
SO - I think given everything that happened that night - Voldemort wouldn't have a clue if he had planted a piece of soul - the only thing I can take from your argument would be Voldemort should have been performing the charm to seal a horcrux ... ergo he should be wondering if indeed he did manage to seal an object or what the heck happened - he might even correctly guess that it did work somewhat ...
My question isn't about 'is Harry a Horcrux or not' - I am pretty sure he is - I am trying to work out if it was on purpose, if not then what happened to seal Harry and maybe what was Voldemort's real target object or the torn piece.

H, to add a bit to what you just said. IF Hary, or the scar was a Horcrux, his death would be required to seal the fate of Voldemort, simultaneously negating the prophesy.
That is what I have been saying - the only way Voldemort would have planned to make Harry a Horcrux and execute that plan would be with that in mind - seal a horcrux in the one thing that can kill you - you are absolutely fine!
If they kill you - they also sustain you - if they kill themselves - they remove the threat - and it is logical that Voldemort might even sacrifice that horcrux if he wanted to - because to kill Harry would kill the horcrux - but it would also remove the threat ... and if it goes wrong - once again the soul piece is safe!
That my friends is ouroboros in the greatest form - the snake eating it's own tail!

halliemei

11-06-2006, 13:55

First, Alz, AMEN! My point exactly. And let me say, much better phrased than I could do. :D

Second, I think it's entirely possible that VM doesn't realize the Harry is a horcrux. He knows that the AK part of the spell bounced back onto him, so why would he logically deduce that the horcrux part of the spell didn't. He "assumes" that the horcrux was either released because there was no killing or sealed within himself because the AK was . . . so he doesn't realize the horcrux is within Harry. Furthermore . . . what Alz said! If he can't "feel" when a horcrux is destroyed, then he won't necessarily know when one is created on accident.

DumbledoresArmy

11-06-2006, 15:24

ALZ, good point, although it was revealed Voldemort was unaware of the DESTRUCTION of one of his Horcruxes, there is no clear indication as to whether there is awarness at the point the creation. Though it DOES talk of his physical appearance altering with the "mutilation" of his soul. Do you not feel it unbelievable that one would not notice both an alteration of there physical appearance. It also spoke of the degree of power and depth of the dark magic required to perform. It sounded far to dark and complicated to happen accidently. Especially with a wizard as powerful and wise as Voldemort.

Sirius Potter Fan

11-06-2006, 16:06

Well . . . to play devils advocate for myself, since Voldemort was ripped from his body and existed as little more than spirit with no physical form, there likely wouldn't have been any mutilation to notice. If there would have been a change it wouldn't have "shown" untill his rebirth in GoF, and at that point, it would have simply have been atributed to the rebirthing process. But, DA I do agree that I can't see how he could have accidentaly made Harry a horcrux. There was just too much involved in making one in the first place.

DumbledoresArmy

12-06-2006, 09:39

Seeker615

12-06-2006, 09:49

I liked the point you made Alz. Harry could probably get rid of all the horcruxes and voldy would not know until they faced off and then he would be dead since he has no horcuxes to sustain him. The only was he would be aware of his horcruxes is if he went to check on them.Or a spy told him of Harry's plan to destroy them.)

I am still a believer of Harry being an accidental horcrux. I felt that way right after reading HBP. It just seems to be right under our noses. Here are some things I noticed:

Here are some points to argue for the theory.

1)- It was not done on purpose. Somehow the spell rebounded and a piece of soul entered Harry. Thus the scar. (No one ever has had any marks from the Avada Kedavra curse so I believe a piece of souls entered him)

2)- Harry has the ability to speak parsel tongue. (It seems only Slytherin descendants had that ability.)

3) The hat tried to sort him onto Slytherin and stands by it's decision.

4) Harry and Voldy have a connection.

5) Trelawny when reading Harry saw him as a winter birth. (Voldy was a winter birth.) She also called him an interesting object in HBP.

6) DD said that Voldy transferred a part of himself into Harry. (Soul perhaps?)

7) DD also mentioned that to have a living thing be a horcrux is not advisable as it can think for itself. It to me seemed interesting that he brought that up. That is what sent red flag that Harry could possibly be a horcrux.

I think that is all right now. I may think of others.

Now I am not saying 100% that he is a horcrux but I think it is possible.
_________________

Sirius Potter Fan

12-06-2006, 11:49

Seeker, those are all very convincing arguments, however, not proof. All of those facts leave the door open for the possibility I admit, JKR just loves doing that to us, but I don't see even one that could be considered proof.

DA, very good call about Voldemort not being able to kill or touch Harry due to Lily's protection . . . If he couldn't kill him, couldn't touch him, then how could he have made him a Horcrux, whether on purpose or on accident. the only window would have been between James and Lily's deaths, and in which case, he would have certainly been aware that he had done so and would have never attempted to kill Harry at all!

Alz

12-06-2006, 11:59

Thinking at about this at every angle I can come up with, I've thought of criteria in which it is quite impossible for Harry to be a Horcrux. At the moment of Lili's death, Harry was covered with protection making it IMPOSIBLE for Voldemort to touch him, with the AK, as well as physically as we found out in year one. How then can he be a Horcrux? How could Harry have a piece of Voldemorts soul actually indwelling within him when Quible (while inhabited be Voldemort) couldn't even touch his skin? It is possible I suppose that Harry was made a Horcrux between the pont in which Voldemort killed James, and when he killed Lili. Although, we have seen many "flashbacks" that leave no hint or even window of time for this to have happened.
See - Voldemort didn't touch Harry - his soul was implanted - that much seems the most plausible ...
I think Voldemort couldn't touch him - I agree with your point - but I don't think Voldemort needed to touch him ... what happened didn't require a touch!

I would like to add to the great list below ...

8) Harry has the brother wand to Voldemorts - the wand chooses the wizard - I think that is why he got the brother wand - he could see the original holder

9) Dumbledore has never tried to explain how Harry and Voldemort are connected after the fateful night - in fact he avoids it somewhat

10) Priori Incantatem - more than the joining of brother wands

DumbledoresArmy

12-06-2006, 12:22

I understand the implanting of a soul would not require a touch, but magic. Magic like tha AK curse which we know also rebounded off of Harry. And all of the other points DD always attributed to the fact that Voldemort transferred his powers to Harry.

Seeker: "7) DD also mentioned that to have a living thing be a horcrux is not advisable as it can think for itself. It to me seemed interesting that he brought that up. That is what sent red flag that Harry could possibly be a horcrux." If you remember, that was a direct referral to Nagini, and his explanation of a "living" Horcrux, and why it was not advisable.

I must admit, in my gut It seems like Harry is most definitely a Horcrux, JKR has some serious explaining to do however if he is. The thing I found the most curiose myself was the "And one more," when DD would list the Horcruxes. I know I already said this but the fact that not only did he not make any suggestions, but did not even say he didn't know what it was is very suspect.

I stand however that while my gut says Horcrux, the evidence is very strongly against it. I must follow the evidence!!

Seeker615

13-06-2006, 09:17

Yes I remember that DD was referring to Nagini when he said it was advisable not to use a living creature as a horcrux. I just found it interesting that he considered Nagini as a possible horcrux and then went to talk about how dangerous it is to use a living thing as one.

I don't think any of the points are proof Harry is a horcrux. I just think that it could be possible. Only time will tell.

Fortescue

13-06-2006, 12:54

Just a thought. JKR is so devious at leading us down the wrong road and all.

We know that Dumbledore was one idea short for a Horcrux. We have discussed the possibility that Harry is one, I don't really think so, but what if there was something we overlooked.

Dumbledore suggested Nagini, but what type of snake is Nagini?
As Dumbledore suggested, there is danger in using a living thing for a soul bit because a living thing can die or be killed.

Remember back to the chamber when Harry destroyed the diary and killed the basillisk. A basillisk is practically immortal. They live for hundreds if not thousands of years. The snake in the chamber had to be a thousand years old if one of the founders of Hogwarts put the snake in there for his heirs later use.

What if Riddle used the basillisk as a Horcrux and that was the one that Dumbledore couldn't account for? It makes sense to put a soul bit into something that has little chance of dying due to old age and the thing wasn't in any danger being locked down in the chamber. Maybe Harry actually killed two horcruxes in one day and that is why Voldemort was so ticked off at Malfoy for starting the entire thing by giving the diary to Ginny!

Sirius Potter Fan

13-06-2006, 17:16

The idea makes sense, but it just doesn't feel right . . . I could be very wrong, have to think on it a bit. I just don't think that Riddle would have done more than one or two at that point, but of course we don't know exactly when the diary was made into a horcrux. we assume that it was the same year as he opened the chamber, but even though that is when the memories were made, he could have waited years before making the diary into a horcrux. It would have been a very cruel twist (for Riddle) if the Basalisk had been a horcrux, and two were destroyed in one day, and he certainly would have considered it safely hidden since he was the final heir of Slytherin, and would have been sure that no one else would have been able to get into the chamber . . . possibly the best protected Horcrux of all in his opinion. If someone did manage to get into the Chamber, they would still have to defeat the Basalisk, and that would be near impossible without the help of Fawkes. could that have been why he went back to Hogwarts? Like I said, it doesn't exactly feel right, I don't know why, but I like the idea anyway!

Alz

14-06-2006, 11:41

Interesting idea Forte!
I can see what you are saying and think you made some great points.
If immortality is the key - then something like a phoenix or Basilisk would be good - taking that risk to implant a piece of soul in a living object was a risk - so keep the odd's in your favour. Like it!

I still think this whole premise rests on 2 things - the unexplained link between Harry and Voldemort - and Dumbledore's reluctance to address it and tell Harry his thoughts.
I think if someone could explain the 'back fired' spell and Harry having Voldemort's skill etc - then I would start to concede the point - but right now a Horcrux would explain so many parts of it ...

DumbledoresArmy

14-06-2006, 16:50

Ok, an idea that has been haunting me for some time, I can't really make it fit exactly...and its pretty out there but here it goes. We know Voldemort likes to pin his Horcruxes to powerful magical objects, built upon trophy kills, is it possible he wasn't after Harry at all? Is it possible he was efforting to make a horcrux of somthing dear to the Potters (Griffindor's) and build upon James Potters death? It would fit with the object being of Griffindor decent AND the property of the one killed. A treasured picture of a Griffindor family, like one Harry holds so dear? It would be somthing so protected but in ways noone would ever think, and in a place no one would ever look. Is that how Harry could have become a Horcrux, or IS that somthing still so near and dear to Harry? Could IT be creating a bond. The picture is mentioned over and over, and the surface reasons are so clear, could there be something more? I know...its reaching, and I cant make it fit perfectly, just trying to "think out of the book"

Alz

15-06-2006, 11:22

I did toy with this thought as well - and not sure I can make it any more logically than you did ...
I am getting the feeling the significance that had to be involved in order to make this 6th and Final Horcrux was based on two things - both seem to satisfy Voldemort's mind and fits in with Dumbledore's thinking on the subject ...
Harry was the one prophesised to be Voldemort's downfall - and the fact it happened at Godric's Hollow - I think that almost satisfies the need for a Gryffindor object - killing your Nemesis in a location named after your descendants foe just fits ...
I'm not a real fan of Harry being a descendant of Godric and this is all an eternal battle between the two founders - doesn't mean it cant happen because I don't like it - just seems to cliché?

SnarkologyMajor

15-06-2006, 15:10

I tend to agree Alz-probably because my guess is that it is Dumbledore who is tied to Gryffindor:D JKR did say that the four houses correlate to the four elements-fire(Gryffindor),water(Slytherin),air(Ravenclaw), and earth(Hufflepuff). I've recently noticed how often Dumbldore is associated w/fire-Fawkes the phoenix has only ever belonged to him, Dumbledore is the one who first introduced us to the Goblet of Fire(which is certainly an interesting artifact), in the cave Dumbledore revives rather swiftly with a "ring of fire", and his tomb goes up in flames-hmmm, he has a blackened and burned hand, and I think there are some more I'm just not remembering...I hate to say it but given that I've already gone out on a limb w/my Salazar/horcrux thread (Cyclic Time)-I just wonder if Dumbledore isn't half of this eternal battle? His watch with 12 planets just screams the zodiac-much larger time scales than any old timepiece! We've never gotten an answer about that watch. Oh and I love the metaphor in HBP's cave scene-Dumbledore's "ring of fire" juxtaposed against a lake full of the dead. Fire and Water-Gryffindor and Salazar....of course we had Fire and Water in CoS too-Basilisk and Fawkes-well much to ponder anyway:D

Alz

17-06-2006, 10:51

I suppose that would explain a few things overall - like why he was battling Dark Lords and also helping Harry - since he is getting on a bit now!
Still think that is too cliche overall - I'm not a fan of the external struggle between the founders but I can see why it makes a huge amount of sense.

Dont want to be the OT police but perhaps if we want to expand that theory a little further we should break it out into a new thread?

SnarkologyMajor

18-06-2006, 01:03

I tend to agree Alz-that's why I didn't start a thread for the theory:D I'm not totally convinced w/this explanation even though it does make sense. I have no qualms concerning Salazar creating a horcrux-however if Dumbledore is tied together w/Gryffindor, this would mean he created a horcrux himself. I mean it adds up-but I just can't quite commit to it:rolleyes: Actually-I'm not sure if the two ideas should be two separate threads or one? Let me hear your thoughts and I can at least get one on the board just to toss some ideas around?

Mollywobbles

20-06-2006, 12:08

Hi All. I'm new here, but I'm just going to jump into this discussion. My apologies if this has already been discussed.

Ok... let's say that Voldemort did indeed make Harry a horcrux ( I sincerely hope he didn't) and didn't know it. All through OoTP, he (Harry) has these "insights" into Voldemorts mind and each time this happens, Harry's scar bursts with pain. When is the last time that Harry feels his scar burn? As far as I can remember, it was when Voldemort possess him in the MoM. So, I have a theory and want to see what you all might think about this...

Let's say that it is indeed true that Voldemort cannot feel when one of his pieces of soul and its horcrux is destroyed. IF Harry was given a piece of Voldemort's soul, do you think it possible that when Voldemort possessed Harry, that he felt a part of his soul there and took it back? I mean, since he would be "inside" the horcurx, so to speak, do you think he could feel it there? This would certainly explain why he's not having those adventures in his sleep anymore and why his scar hasn't hurt recently. Granted, I can see the argument for Occlumency/Legilimency.

Just throwing my thoughts out there. Sorry if they are way out there.

toolateagain

20-06-2006, 17:17

Hey, I'm new too! :p

Uum. Harry still has the horcrux because I think Occlumency/Leglimency can't get anything else other than information. If Voldemort wants it back, I guess he needs to rip it off directly from Harry's body.

Alz

21-06-2006, 19:21

First off hello to you both :D

Mollywobbles - the reason Voldemort couldnt stick around in Harry was because he suddenly started to think of Sirius and once Harry started to feel love - something Voldemort has never known - he couldnt understand the sensation or feeling and had to get out.
He was doing fine there inside Harry until Harry unleashed a whole can of love on his sorry ... butt ... and then at that point he had to check out!
Interesting premise all the same - I wonder if Voldemort suddenly did feel something wasnt right in there - and even before the thoughts of Sirius etc - I mean while he was mentally inside Harry's brain and if there is a little piece of him inside there - you have to fancy the chances that he felt it or something!

cagedcactus

31-07-2006, 06:11

Ok I am going to put my side of story here.
In Chamber of secrets in second year, Voldemort tried to comeback with the help of that Diary. Harry put a stop to it when he stabbed that diary and destroyed the piece of soul in it.
My understanding here is in order to come back, Voldemort must use one of his horcruxes.
Which he probably did in GOF in fourth year, when he used Harry to finish the process in which Father's bone and Harry's blood was required. Which means if Harry was a horcrux, well, he is not one now. The soul fragment he probably carried, is used up when Voldemort returned.
Now you may ask, why not use other Horcruxes and just Harry? It would have been easy to get one of those out of hiding, than Harry, who is alive and is an enemy to dark lord.
I think the answer to that is after making his comeback, killing Harry right there in that graveyard would be icing on the cake for dark lord. And that way he would not have to reveal the information on horcruxes to his followers either. He failed in killing Harry, but he did come back and not one of his followers know of horcruxes at present. Of course if you dont count Snape who was a spy(and still is I believe), and R.A.B(who is dead now).
One more pointer: Wormtail asks in the begining of GOF, that if they were to do the process without the boy. Voldemort screams out mentioning that "No, the boy must be there. he is everything."

Alz

31-07-2006, 11:57

Ahh my friend - welcome to my confusion!!
Look for a thread called 'used versus exist' to see what I mean - I was sure after my initial reading of HBP that horcruxes were used - but then seems like 90% of the forum thought otherwise - and not without good reason - it seems that in order for Voldemort to re-birth - he needs to have at least one horcrux that is safe and earthbound - he doesn't use them - they just need to exist ...
Now I am still sitting in the middle with that one - but there is a great deal to support exist versus used ...
Ergo - if exist is the medium - HiaH is still all good!

halliemei

31-07-2006, 15:41

What's more . . . even if it is "used," no one has said that he didn't use it to become "babymort." After all, even my 6 year old child has asked how he turned into a baby (to which I replied "I don't know -- magic, I guess"). But, it would seem that if the "used" theory was in place, it would require that to start the process not finish it. Since we have no idea from the books how this happened (only that Wormtail started the process somehow - and that Quirrel didn't in Yr 1), we can assume that he could have used one of the unknown ones. Of course, that gets into an entirely new discussion that hurts my head. :p :D :(

So, I'm still firmly in the HiaH camp and will remain there until JKR gives me reason to change my mind through her own words (or proven wrong in bk 7, whichever comes first).

Alz

05-08-2006, 09:56

I'm sure Voldemort took a stab at explaining how he was able to fashion his baby form in GoF - it was to do with some magic and Wormtail - but I would like to submit the idea in favour of used versus exist - because I am still of the thinking that the masses could be lead blindly into the dark - if more than just one person see's used versus exist - it would tend to suggest their is a reason for the ambiguity - either that or they need to re-read the book - still while the evidence is stronger to exist - I just wonder if that is another sting in the tale ...

JKR is starting to do some theory killing again (Dumbledore dead) so I wonder if she will eventually kill this off or perhaps she has more fun leaving us all arguing over the point!

Meagan091484

21-10-2006, 17:24

I don't want anyone taking this wrong, because I am a HUGE Potter fan.
Try this one on for size.

Maybe the reason that Harry was not hurt while destroying the diary in CoS was because JKR had not fully explored the signifigance of it. She says herself that she had not even named these objects until book 6, so four books before she may not have come up with the idea of a Horcrux yet.

Another reason I think he was unharmed, and it may have already been mentioned, was that there is a part of Voldy imprinted in Harry. NOT a piece of him, just a residue of his magic. Almost like a double exposed picture, the main pic is there but with ghost images from the secondary pic.

Just a theory, but I still don't think Harry is a Horcrux.

Seeker615

26-10-2006, 09:42

Hoggy Warty Hogwarts

27-10-2006, 01:18

The thing is I don't think Voldemort knows that Harry is a horcrux.

What most of us HIAH believers think is that the night Voldemort tried to kill baby Harry he inadvertantly made Harry a horcrux and wiped himself out in the process. His soul was split from Killing Lilly and James, he probably already had the object for the horcrux nearby so after he killed Harry he could make his horcrux. But what happened was that he did the killing curse, it back-fired and vaporized him and a piece of his split soul went into Harry. It seems probable. (Of course only until the final book comes out will we know the truth)

Do you think it possible that maybe if Voldemort made Harry as a horcrux accidently or not he might have felt it, as his soul ripped from his body that night a GH? and thus he would know or even assume harry is a horcrux and therefore not want to kill Harry? but has tried to ever since as we know :confused: but then again maybe not just a thought... what do you think?

Padma Patil

27-10-2006, 08:34

Hoggy Warty Hogwarts

29-10-2006, 01:38

I know its kind of off topic here but i was wondering if a horcrux can be changed at any point in time no matter how long its been there for ? Incase the location of it or the object itself had been compromised at some point would you be able to change the object or once it has been made a horcrux does it stay that way until its been destroyed or used or whatever it is exactly that can be done with one ? I hope that makes sense :o

Padma Patil

29-10-2006, 12:02

It makes sence to me, but I don't think it can be done. If you want another horcrux, you have to make it. Of course JKR only can answer this question, but thats just my guess.

Hoggy Warty Hogwarts

30-10-2006, 19:45

Yeah your probably right but what if you dont want another one and all you want to do is change the object ? but it is just a guess as we dont have the answer so your right about J.K.R being the only one to tell us i just thought i'd see what other people thought... but it would be even harder a task for Harry if that was the case.

Alz

30-10-2006, 21:46

Do you think it possible that maybe if Voldemort made Harry as a horcrux accidently or not he might have felt it, as his soul ripped from his body that night a GH? and thus he would know or even assume harry is a horcrux and therefore not want to kill Harry? but has tried to ever since as we know :confused: but then again maybe not just a thought... what do you think?

When Voldemort splits his soul - he looses contact with the soul fragment ...
Given the events exploding on the fateful night and the fact Voldemort was ripped from his body - I dont think he had a clue what really happened and when he addressed the DE's in GOF about the special magic - I think it was him trying to save face and make it look like he knew what happened ...
I dont believe for a second that Voldemort would have had a clue if he made a horcrux or not - and he wasnt about to talk about it if he did ...
Why kill Harry if he is a horcrux - isnt loosing a 7th of your soul worth it when it means you can destroy the one who is destine to kill you?

peanutgal1

06-11-2006, 13:37

I won't go too far here because I'm sure that Alz will explain my confusion in two lines. If Harry really has a piece of Voldemort inside him, why does Crookshanks, a kneazle like Harry? Kneazles are able to detect suspicious people, like Wormtail, the rat. However, Crookshanks likes Harry.

Alz

07-11-2006, 13:03

That is a good point actually! :D

See the link/possible Horcrux in Harry isnt obvious - that much can be gained from reading this marathon thread ... as such would a kneazle be able to get in that far?

Then - of course we have the fact Harry isnt acting suspicious and neither is the speculated Horcrux piece inside him - so one again what is there to detect?

That would be my best argument on that one - still it is a great question! :D

nymphadora

07-11-2006, 13:28

Well, the question you also have to look at is, did he know that Harry could speak parsletounge (sp?) because of the transfer of power?

In my view however, I'm thinking that if Voldemort intended on turning Harry into a horcrux, then he would have had the object ready and all that so that he could do it as soon as he killed Harry. But since he got zapped in the process, he never got to complete the final horcrux. Hence why Dumbledore believed that Nagini is a horcrux.

When Voldemort splits his soul - he looses contact with the soul fragment ...
Given the events exploding on the fateful night and the fact Voldemort was ripped from his body - I dont think he had a clue what really happened and when he addressed the DE's in GOF about the special magic - I think it was him trying to save face and make it look like he knew what happened ...
I dont believe for a second that Voldemort would have had a clue if he made a horcrux or not - and he wasnt about to talk about it if he did ...
Why kill Harry if he is a horcrux - isnt loosing a 7th of your soul worth it when it means you can destroy the one who is destine to kill you?

Exactly! If Voldemort did turn Harry into a horcrux, why try to kill him?? And why would he want to turn Harry into a horcrux when Voldemort "knew" that Harry was destined to kill him in the end? Or Padma do you mean that Harry's dead body would be a horcrux? Because I don't think anyone would want to use a dead body as a horcrux... it would just rot away!

Sirius Potter Fan

08-11-2006, 14:03

Thanks nymphadora!

That has long been one of my arguments on here, but I have long since given up arguing this point. I'll just wait and let book 7 bring me my glory! I can see from a "speculation" sense that there is an outside possibility, and perhaps put there on purpose by JKR to keep people like us arguing the point over and over, but I just don't see a twist like that being brought about in this last book with so many things already waiting to be resolved in the first place. I have stated before, I don't believe that a living thing can be a horcrux. Dumbledore only "believed" that Nagini "Might" be a horcrux, but offered no other reason, and even then said that it would be unwise to make a horcrux from a living thing.

jsez4444

12-11-2006, 23:08

I am new to this site but interested in a lot of its theories. I have read a lot of the post on this thread but not all so forgive me if I repeat any arguments that have already been made.
Personally I don't think that Harry is a Horcrux, it doesn't make enough sense. First thing that pops into my mind for one thing is that Voldemort knew the prophecy before going to kill Harry so if he thought that Harry was supposed to kill him why would he have wanted to make him into a horcrux. I guess I just don't understand what Voldemort would have thought he was going to gain by doing this.
Also Harry being a Horcrux contradicts the prophecy, or at least makes it so the only way the prophecy can be true is if Harry loses. "And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives." So if Harry has to destroy all of the Horcruxes before he can kill Voldemort and he is one of the Horcruxes, it may make it difficult for him to defeat Voldemort.

unless...

I just came up with a theory that may have already been thought up but it just now occured to me and I havent seen it discussed anywhere. The question I have is, do the Horcruxes need to be destroyed in any certain order? Voldemort's original body was already destroyed once and the only reason he was able to be brought back was because of his Horcruxes. So what if (for suspense purposes) Harry destroys all but the final horcrux when he ends up meeting Voldemort in the 7th book. They are in a confrontation and Voldemort somehow reveals to Harry (in a Darth Vader esque fashion) that Harry is a horcrux, or maybe with other clues he recieves he comes to the conclusion on his own whether Voldemort knows or not. He will probably be stumped for a while as to what to do but he will finally realize, as so many heros do, that he will have to sacrafice himself to save the world (like Neo in the Matrix.) Then he has to somehow destroy Voldemort's body and then he will be the final horcrux and he will have to sacrafice himself somehow.

I'm not sure if I just convinced myself or if that is just one of the many situations that could happen so I am going to go think about this more and get back to this thread later when I hear other peoples thoughts.

cagedcactus

13-11-2006, 05:28

whether you have read more threads here or not, it seems you are up to date. :D
Good points. And we have made the same points to argue.
But here is something I agreed with Alz on.
You see, there is nothing clear about that fateful night when Voldemort came to kill Harry. We have been told by DD and other people that Voldemort got blasted with that rebounded curse from Harry. But was anyone there to confirm it?
What if cards unfolded different altogether? What if it wasnt love that saved Harry, but an un intentional horcrux inside him that saved him?
I know the theory probably goes bonkers when hear first time, but until JKR comes forward and shows us why DD's theory is right, we have to assume a lot of things, no? :D

Alz

13-11-2006, 13:16

Exactly! If Voldemort did turn Harry into a horcrux, why try to kill him?? And why would he want to turn Harry into a horcrux when Voldemort "knew" that Harry was destined to kill him in the end? Or Padma do you mean that Harry's dead body would be a horcrux? Because I don't think anyone would want to use a dead body as a horcrux... it would just rot away!

Urghh - I have said this so many times!
Voldemort is probably unaware that Harry is a Horcrux - when the spell backfired he would have had no idea what was going on and what happened to his soul/body or anything else for that matter ...
But say he did ... isnt loosing 1/7th of your soul a worthy gamble if it means you can kill the one person destine to kill you?
Think about it - it is a bloody paradox!
If Harry lives - Voldemort can not die ... because the soul piece in Harry will always keep him alive - as such it would be genius to actually plan to plant a horcrux in him and then try and kill him - he cant loose!
If he succeeds - Harry dies and so does the one to vanquish him - if Harry lives - Voldemort can not die!

The only issue Voldemort has it working out how to kill Harry - because no matter what he is all good in the hood!

Glumbumble

13-11-2006, 14:32

Prior to Harry entering Hogwarts Harry and Voldemort had met on just one occasion. That occasion was when Harry’s parents were killed and Harry survived the Avada Kedavra curse. Voldemort made it quite clear both as the memory of Tom Riddle and at his rebirth that he did not expect Harry to survive. He concludes that Lily’s sacrifice acted as a countercurse to his curse. The impostor Moody and no less an authority than JKR herself have confirmed that nobody had ever survived the AK curse and so there was no way that Voldemort could have anticipated it.

So for those who wish to believe that Voldemort intended Harry to be a Horcrux must accept that the murder of either James or Lily was used to seal the soul fragment in Harry and that the first thing that Voldemort tried to do to the fragment detached by ripping his soul apart is to try to destroy it! That does not seem plausible even for Voldemort.

The remaining possibility is that Harry became a Horcrux by accident. As no one is certain about the process by which a Horcrux is made it is difficult to be certain one way or another. What we do know about Horcrux creation, from Slughorn, is that there appears to be two parts of the process. In the first part the soul is torn apart by the supreme act of evil, in the second part a spell is used to encase the soul fragment into a vessel.

"By an act of evil — the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage: He would encase the torn portion —"
"Encase? But how — ?"
"There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" said Slughorn shaking his head like an old elephant bothered by mosquitoes. " Do I look as though I have tried it — do I look like a killer?"

It is possible that it was Harry’s murder that was intended to be used to create a Horcrux. If this were so Voldemort would presumably have had a vessel to hand to encase the soul fragment. Following this argument we must assume that Voldemort had completed the encasement spell before the AV curse backfired on him and that somehow a soul fragment created by Lily or James’ murder became encased!

Voldemort says “Aaah . . . pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body,…” On this occasion it was the remainder of Voldemort’s soul that was torn from his body, not the soul fragment. If Harry had become a Horcrux he would have encased the main part of Voldemort’s soul not the fragment. We know that not to be the case.

I think that it is unlikely that at that time Voldemort would have been able to make or complete the spell.

It also seems to me that if committing the supreme act of evil rips the soul in two Voldemort’s soul would already have been split twice that night in swift succession. With so many soul fragments “floating” around it would be difficult to know how much soul was being encased!

I do not think that we know of any of the murders that were used to create Horcruxes but I think that they would have been committed in fairly “safe” situations where it was unlikely that any resistance would occur and unlikely that there would have been anyone able to see what was occurring.

halliemei

13-11-2006, 16:45

Jumping in here to help Alz, and because I haven't posted in a while . . . we aren't assuming that Voldemort MEANT to do anything -- but kill Harry. Period. We also don't know how to make a horcrux and that Slughorn seems to be under the impression that it takes a second step. BUT, we also know that Voldemort had the help of someone (Snape) who had invented spells before. AND, if Snape is clever enough to invent spells, then certainly Voldemort is. You see, even Fred and George are inventing/changing spells. That is what we've been saying. We are saying that not only did Voldemort not MEAN to make Harry a horcrux, but that he doesn't know that he is one. He can't tell when one is destroyed (that we can tell), so he doesn't have the ability to detect them. We think that the point about Nagini is to notify the readers that living beings CAN be a horcrux.

I hate to jump in here, but I know after 19 pages that folks are missing parts of the "argument" here.

I am with the ones who believe he is a horcrux (or his scar is) . . . until given an argument that makes it not likely.

Glumbumble

13-11-2006, 18:20

Whether Snape or anyone else invented a new spell to make Horcruxes is not really the point. The point is that unless that, or Slughorn’s, spell was used a Horcrux would not have been made. I think that there is also a misunderstanding in respect of Horcruxes being identifiable. The fact that Voldemort does not know if a Horcrux has been destroyed is to do with the state of his soul. It is so damaged he cannot tell if another dislocated part has been destroyed.

"Does Voldemort know when a Horcrux is destroyed, sir? Can he feel it?" Harry asked, ignoring the portraits.
"A very interesting question, Harry. I believe not. I believe that Voldemort is now so immersed in evil, and these crucial parts of himself have been detached for so long, he does not feel as we do. Perhaps, at the point of death, he might be aware of his loss . . . but he was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy. When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold."

The detection of a Horcrux, by someone other than the “owner” of the soul fragment, would be around the identification of “known magic”, used for the encasement, as shown by Dumbledore in the cave. Using relics of the founders, that are themselves attributed with magic, might help disguise the encasement of a Horcrux but Harry would not normally, I think, have spells concealed within him. I am sure that if Harry had been a Horcrux then Dumbledore would have been able to tell.

Whatever it is that resides within Harry that Voldemort inadvertently placed there during the murder attempt does not act like the other encased Horcruxes. It has enabled Harry to feel Voldemort’s emotions, it has enabled Harry to see what Voldemort is seeing and thinking and it allowed Voldemort to see what Harry was doing (looking into Dumbledore’s eyes). It has allowed two way communication of sorts. Now Voldemort uses Occlumency to prevent Harry getting any further access to his mind.

Dumbledore says to Harry “You have flitted into Lord Voldemort's mind without damage to yourself, but he cannot possess you with-out enduring mortal agony, as he discovered in the Ministry.” If Voldemort cannot reside in Harry what chance a fragment of his soul?

halliemei

14-11-2006, 16:59

Your point about the recognition of a horcrux is well taken.

But, it is relevant whether the horcrux spell is an "invention." The supposition is that Voldemort (or Snape, et al) invented a spell to speed up the process, thus combining the AK and the horcrux spell. He intended to make a horcrux OF Harry's death, so he used his "combo" spell. As such, it explains how the accidental horcrux was created. He'd casted the ONE spell that combines two and so the horcrux is created. The one issue I do have with this theory (which just dawned on me) is that I would think Voldemort would have possibly wondered about the scar on Harry's head. Unless he figured since part 1 didn't work that part 2 didn't either . . . I hate when I argue with myself. ;)

Glumbumble

15-11-2006, 04:33

Wouldn't a "combined spell" still require someone to die? Harry did not die and neither did Voldemort! Voldemort's soul, and it is the soul that matters in Horcrux creation, was ripped from his body.

jsez4444

15-11-2006, 07:43

Whatever it is that resides within Harry that Voldemort inadvertently placed there during the murder attempt does not act like the other encased Horcruxes. It has enabled Harry to feel Voldemort’s emotions, it has enabled Harry to see what Voldemort is seeing and thinking and it allowed Voldemort to see what Harry was doing (looking into Dumbledore’s eyes). It has allowed two way communication of sorts. Now Voldemort uses Occlumency to prevent Harry getting any further access to his mind.

This may be because none of the other horcruxes are living. If we assume that Nagini is a horcrux then actually it is a lot of the smae stuff. Like when Nagini attacked Arthur Weasley, Harry saw what happened through the snakes eyes and could hear what the snake was thinking as well as what the LV was telling it to do. This seems to be how LV communicates with Nagini over long distance missions he sends her on. Harry can even senses LV's feelings during the attack because he starts laughing. (I can't find the quote and don't have a book on me, if you do I would like to analyze it more, I think it could hold some clues as to how this might work.) If Harry can see into LV's mind because of what happened that night and LV can see into Nagini's mind because she is a Horcrux then that may mean that the reason Harry can see into LV's mind is because he is a Horcrux.

Alz

25-11-2006, 16:10

Wouldn't a "combined spell" still require someone to die? Harry did not die and neither did Voldemort! Voldemort's soul, and it is the soul that matters in Horcrux creation, was ripped from his body.

Ummm - ok, lets assume when he got his own back he would have died - in fact his body was somewhat - well, only the fact he had horcruxes meant his soul stayed alive - so in order for his horcrux to trigger .... he had to be killed ... or die ...
As such, someone did die that night ... himself ... although the horcruxes prevented him from a mortal death and instead triggered and kept his soul alive ...

Then of course - we have the fact 2 other people died that night ... Lily and James - so there was scope and opportunity!
The fact both of them 'thrice' defied him would link into an importance to using their deaths ...

Now jsez4444 - that is the right kind of thinking!

Glumbumble

08-12-2006, 07:36

Jsez4444 is this the quote you were thinking of He opened the door of his dormitory and was one step inside it when he experienced pain so severe he thought that someone must have sliced into the top of his head. He did not know where he was, whether he was standing or lying down, he did not even know his own name.
Maniacal laughter was ringing in his ears… he was happier than he had been in a very long time… jubilant, ecstatic, triumphant… a wonderful, wonderful thing had happened…
Someone had hit him around the face. The insane laughter was punctuated with a cry of pain.
The happiness was draining out of him, but the laughter continued…He opened his eyes and, as he did so, he became aware that the wild laughter was coming out of his own mouth. The moment he realised this, it died away; Harry lay panting on the floor, staring up at the ceiling, the scar on his forehead throbbing horribly. Ron was bending over him, looking very worried.
'What happened?' he said.
'I… dunno…' Harry gasped, sitting up again. 'He's really happy… really happy…"
'You-Know-Who is?'
'Something good's happened,' mumbled Harry. He was shaking as badly as he had done after seeing the snake attack Mr Weasley and felt very sick. 'Something he's been hoping for.'

I was wondering whether the destruction/killing order can be changed?

I have always assumed that Voldemort’s Horcruxes have to be destroyed before he can be killed.
Harry sat in thought for a moment, then asked, "So if all of his Horcruxes are destroyed, Voldemort could be killed?"
"Yes, I think so," said Dumbledore. "Without his Horcruxes, Voldemort will be a mortal man with a maimed and diminished soul. Never forget, though, that while his soul may be damaged be-yond repair, his brain and his magical powers remain intact. It will take uncommon skill and power to kill a wizard like Voldemort even without his Horcruxes."

This presents a dilemma for the Harry is a Horcrux lobby because Harry would need to die before Voldemort could be killed. Yet Harry is destined to kill Voldemort.

But what happens if Voldemort is killed with one Horcrux remaining? I guess that his soul is ripped from his body again and he becomes less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost. He would continue in this form until another rebirthing took place.

What then happens if the final Horcrux is destroyed? Is Voldemort’s spirit existence also destroyed because it has neither vessel to contain it or another soul fragment prevent it from perishing?

If Harry were a Horcrux, a position I have often argued against, and he was to understand this he could “kill” Voldemort before walking through the veil himself.

I have posted on another thread that Harry will end the series in this way although, while writing this post, have thought that there is a precedent for magical processes reversing in unusual circumstances. The AK curse rebounded on Voldemort because Lily sacrificed herself to save Harry. Nobody had done this before so it was not known that the AK curse could be stopped. It could be possible that a selfless act like Harry walking through the veil and sacrificing himself to save the world from Voldemort would result in his own life being saved.

jsez4444

08-12-2006, 16:14

I have said the same thing before, I think that if Harry is a Horcrux he will destroy the rest of the Horcruxes and maybe not realize he is the last one until he comes face to face with LV. This would add huge suspense to the battle because Harry would be really worried that he met up with him too soon. Then somewhere during the course of the battle he will realize it or LV will tell him and then he will know what he has to do. So he kills LV and then has to kill himself. Walking through the veil would definitely be the way he goes too, kind of following in Sirius' foot steps maybe?

Rubeus

17-12-2006, 13:21

Let me think....... a wizard has to use a wand to perform magic........Voldy kills james then lilly.........turns harry into a horcrux....... then tries to kill him......NOT BUYING THIS

Alz

17-12-2006, 15:10

Let me think....... a wizard has to use a wand to perform magic........Voldy kills james then lilly.........turns harry into a horcrux....... then tries to kill him......NOT BUYING THIS

Wow - powerful argument you offered there - guess that is case and point and we should close the thread huh?
It's amazing to me that if it is sooo obvious Harry isnt a horcrux, how come no-one can explain the backfired AK, the deep forged link between Harry and Voldemort that so connects the two ...
Wandless magic isnt deficient in the series - not to say it was employed here as there was plenty of wands around that night ... but still an interesting point, well maybe the only interesting point :rolleyes:

No-one says it is perfect but some would say it makes sense given the events of that night and the way Harry and Voldemort connect ... for them, we continue ....

jsez4444

17-12-2006, 21:14

Here is a point I just came across while reading the OotP again. After the fight at the ministry when Dumbledore is talking to Harry in his office about the prophecy and the power of love that Harry has in such large quantities he says this:

"That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests."

That force is clearly love, so if Voldemort could not possess Harry now because of the amount of love in his body is it possible for him to have apiece of his soul trapped in Harry at all? Wouldn't it also be destroyed by the love that Harry has so much of because the soul would be evil? Or is that even the same thing?

I think this is open to different interpretations.

Alz

21-12-2006, 14:14

Interesting retort there jsez4444 - could Voldemort has occupied the same space as the Horcrux ... well he did but only for a little while until Harry started to feel deep love - then he checked out ...
Could Voldemort have 'sensed' the presence of the horcrux in Harry - I dont think so, JKR did say once the soul portion is removed Voldemort can not feel what happens to it ...
Could it be that the horcrux in Harry helped with getting Voldemort out when Harry felt love - that is possible as well ... but it is a good point, JKR wrote that part to suggest it was the love that made Voldemort be removed from Harry ...

jsez4444

22-12-2006, 12:51

Thats not quite what I was saying Alz. I wasn't talking about Voldemort being in the same place as his Horcrux, I was asking if a horcrux could even exist inside Harry because of the deep love. Voldemort himself couldn't stand it so would a piece of his soul be able to reside there?

Alz

24-12-2006, 05:45

Ok, IF HiaH and that soul portion was planted that night - they have had 15 years to co-exist ...
Now if Harry can access the horcrux - perhaps the years of being in there has developed some tolerance?
I think maybe it might be locked away and it 'leaks' occasionally into Harry's mind - the times when he can feel Voldemort ... perhaps Voldemort acts like the trigger and causes the connection to tweak?
When Voldemort possessed Harry - Harry's head felt like it was going to split

Then Harry's scar burst open and he knew he was dead: it was pain beyond imagining, pain past endurance -
He was gone from the hall, he was locked in the coils of a creature with red eyes, so tightly bound that Harry did not know where his body ended and the creature' began: they were fused together, bound by pain, and there was no escape
I really like that quote in context of this theory ...

Dr Winterbourne

28-12-2006, 14:19

Dumbledore's man

29-12-2006, 05:41

If Voldemort heard only some part of prophecy and he thought prophecy is saying that boy will kill Voldemort. Then, Voldemort must have thought to make that boy(Harry) his Horcrux. Then if boy(Harry) killed Voldemort (and also destroyed his all Horcruxes) Voldemort will remain earthbound until the boy(Harry) is alive. So, that boy(Harry) will have to kill himself if he wants to kill Voldemort (fully).:D

Alz

31-12-2006, 05:58

If Harry is Voldemort's horcrux, why would Voldemort ever consider killing Harry?

Does the prophecy shed any light on this? If neither can live while the other survives, maybe the love inherant in Harry is toxic to the portion of Voldemort in him, and thus VM wants it out ... Nuh. Doesn't seem plausible. There's no evidence for that.

If Voldemort heard only some part of prophecy and he thought prophecy is saying that boy will kill Voldemort. Then, Voldemort must have thought to make that boy(Harry) his Horcrux. Then if boy(Harry) killed Voldemort (and also destroyed his all Horcruxes) Voldemort will remain earthbound until the boy(Harry) is alive. So, that boy(Harry) will have to kill himself if he wants to kill Voldemort (fully).:D

DM offers one of the reason I have pointed towards before - make the one thing that can kill you a Horcrux - then you can never die ... because if he kills you - the horcrux in him will re-generate you - how Ouroboros is that!
Of course and more likely the second idea - Voldemort doesnt actually know Harry is a Horcrux ... I have done this one to death in this thread so perhaps read back on my previous answers to 'why would Voldemort try and kill his own horcrux' ...

One point you make DW is something I have also considered - what if Voldemort is re-born from this 'Harry' tained horcrux portion ... the final horcrux ... because in effect the chances are if HiaH and the big battle comes off ... that would more than likely be Voldemort's final horcrux .... the one left in Harry ...
So, if Harry kills off Voldemort ... and Voldemort is re-born from this horcrux ... it could be almost polluted ... I do like that idea as well ...

The prophecy does somewhat support this 'neither can live while the other survives ...' the other could be the final horcrux, the piece of Voldemort than isnt quite Voldemort anymore and also alien to Harry - but joins both ...
Neither can live while the horcrux survives ... why?
Because Voldemort has to kill Harry ... so would kill his 'other' or horcrux.
Harry can't live while Voldemort is alive as Voldemort will keep trying to kill him ...
Voldemort can't die while Harry is alive .... as the horcrux will keep him alive ... so in effect Harry can't kill Voldemort without killing himself!

Sirus_Lee_Folks

18-01-2007, 18:54

ok I just posted this on another thread but here goes.

Harry is the best possible Horcrux. Everyone expects that Voldemort attempted to kill Harry but I don't think so. Snape returns to Voldemort with the Prophecy. He knows that the prophecy says that he will mark the child as his equal. So he hunts down Harry and kills his mother in his presence and then instead of an Avada Kedavra he uses magic to place the last piece of his soul in Harry. Now he can be certain that this one Horcrux will never be destroyed. Matter of fact he is quite certain that this one will be guarded by Dumbledore himself so no harm will come to him. At the end of HBP Snape says that they cannot kill Harry because the Dark Lord has reserved that for himself. So he can pull his soul from Harry.

secret seeker

18-01-2007, 19:16

Good idea, Sirius-Lee, but I believe the difficulty with that would be;

1, How would Harry ever find out, until it's too late?.
2, Dumbledore would have had to have known that Harry was a Horcrux.
3, How did Voldemort lose his body and powers, if not a rebounded a.k. curse?.
4, Harry would, in essence, be sharing his body, and Voldemort/Fragment would
find it impossible to be in a body filled with an " ancient magic , which he has
always despised " ( o.o.t.p. pg;736 ).

But I admit, your idea was very good!. And I could be wrong too.;)

Sirius Potter Fan

18-01-2007, 20:39

Another thing, If LV had intentionaly made HaH, in the battle at the MoM while possessing Harry he would not have egged DD on to kill him and Harry together. Also, even if he had accidentaly made HaH, then while possesing him he certainly would have had to have felt part of him already there in Harry's body, and wouldnt have tepted DD to kill them both, although he would have been certain of survival, he wouldn't have wanted one a horcrux destroyed.

Glumbumble

19-01-2007, 04:59

Harry is the best possible Horcrux. Everyone expects that Voldemort attempted to kill Harry but I don't think so. Snape returns to Voldemort with the Prophecy. He knows that the prophecy says that he will mark the child as his equal. So he hunts down Harry and kills his mother in his presence and then instead of an Avada Kedavra he uses magic to place the last piece of his soul in Harry. Now he can be certain that this one Horcrux will never be destroyed. Matter of fact he is quite certain that this one will be guarded by Dumbledore himself so no harm will come to him. At the end of HBP Snape says that they cannot kill Harry because the Dark Lord has reserved that for himself. So he can pull his soul from Harry.

This is not my understanding of the events.

Of the prophecy Dumbledore says

He heard only the beginning, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you, and marking you as his equal. So Voldemort never knew that there might be danger in attacking you, that it might be wise to wait, to learn more. He did not know that you would have power the Dark Lord knows not

So Voldemort did not know that he would mark Harry as his equal.

Of the idea that Voldemort did not try to kill Harry but instead deliberately tried to create a Horcrux.

Voldemort says

"You all know that on the night I lost my powers and my body, I tried to kill him. His mother died in the attempt to save him - and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not foreseen. ... I could not touch the boy."
Voldemort raised one of his long white fingers and put it very close to Harry's cheek.
"His mother left upon him the traces other sacrifice. . . . This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it... but no matter. I can touch him now."
Harry felt the cold tip of the long white finger touch him, and thought his head would burst with the pain. Voldemort laughed softly in his ear, then took the finger away and continued addressing the Death Eaters.
"I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself. Aaah . . . pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body, I was less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost. . . but still, I was alive. What I was, even I do not know... I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked ... for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it.

To me this shows that it was Voldemort's intention to kill Harry.

I know that the main thrust of the Harry is a Horcrux argument is that he became a Horcrux by accident and there are a whole different set of arguments around that but I do not see that it was an intentional act. I think that Voldemort wanted Harry out of his way when he was at his weakest.