View Full Version : Lily is a Horcrux!
OK, second attempt - will gradually go through them all - cover the bases so to speak ;)
Reasoning: Telling Lily to stand aside ...
Rationale: Voldemort kills James and then decides to seal his Horcrux in Lily.
Thus he doesnt want to kill her because he just placed some soul in her.
His intention if played out would see Lily be a horcrux, James and Harry killed.
He knew she was powerful and thus decided she represented a strong host.
He was forced into dispatching her because it became clear she wouldnt let Harry die - and of course he needed to kill the boy.
Once again - he sacrificed a piece of himself to try and destroy the major target.
Perhaps the act of killing your own sould piece is what caused the strange reaction that saw the spell backfire?
Thoughts? :D
The Frozen North
02-10-2005, 23:55
Interesting thought and difficult to hypothysize about without knowing how a Horcrux is created,all we know it that it requires ripping ones soul and that in order to do this one must fisrt murder someone. Now I'm prompting questions from myself but must one murder or is it enough just to kill intentionally (assuming that to kill in self defense is not classed as murder) and is it essential to kill using AK to creat a Horcrux. I know that these are possibly questions for annother thread but I don't think that there's enough in them to warrant it.
Back to topic: I have one major problem with this theory, Vodermort would never place a part of his soul in a mudblood, it would be like defiling himself.
Back to topic: I have one major problem with this theory, Vodermort would never place a part of his soul in a mudblood, it would be like defiling himself.
I am with you there.. I cant see that Voldemort would but some of his soul into some mudblood.. And why Harrys mother?
I may have forgotten this, but do Voldemort and Lily have anything in common? I cant remember anything..
I like the theory a lot. It gives us a solid reason for why Voldemort would ask her to stand aside. That's one of the major questions I have about that night! Agreed that we don't know how horcruxes are made, but it seems reasonable that there would have to be a soul receptacle close by to the killing in order for a horcrux to be made and Lily was right there!
As for her being a mudblood, that's a decent point, but there are so many people that keep saying she was the greatest witch of her time and that she was pretty powerful, etc. So, perhaps she was seen as a trophy anyway - the best of the good guys.
Federalist_10
03-10-2005, 09:29
I like the theory, but I do not agree with you. I don't know, it is just there would be no reason to put the horcrux in Lily. Just to me, a feeling, because why would he collect as someone said earlier a muggle born when he clearly despises them . If anything it is somehting that was left behind in Godric's Hollow. Could there be a relic of Gryffindor where the Potter's are. Could Harry be the descendant of Gryffindor, and therefore parallel of Slytherin? Could that be the power that Harry has and doesn't know about?
The way I saw this was that James had to go.
Voldemort made no short work of this and took James out of the picture.
Dumbledore himself said that he felt Voldemort was planning to make a Horcrux out of Harry's death ... I suppose you might question why did he do it first?
Is it possible that he intended to keep Lily alive just for that dead - disable her - push her to one side and advance on Harry then the act of him trying to kill Harry and also seal the horcrux seemed to go very wrong and maybe reverse - Harry lived and became the horcrux - Lily died and took the AK?
That is stretching it slightly - I dont profess to know all the answers here - like wild spec all ;)
I think Lily being truely blessed in magic was more of a draw for Dumbledore than the upsetting fact she was a muggle - he was said by Dumbledore to pick object of important magical powers as his soul holders.
I'm just thinking on and expanding idea's here :p
If Voldemort really did intend to make his Final Horcrux that night on the strenght of Harry' death - who would have been alive to become it?
He asked Lily to step aside - said she didnt have to die - was a fool etc etc - gotta wonder that given he planned to make one that night what was he going to use!
Well, now, really, you may be pushing the "wild" aspect of the speculation a bit here, Alz -- but how are we to get anywhere without doing so?
Nonetheless, I don't think it's the case, but I do have a twist to offer. What if Dumbledore was a bit off with what he suspected? What if Lily was indeed a critical component of the Ideal Horcrux scenario? (This takes into account your other Harry-Horcrux theory, by the way.)
What if Voldemort went there that night intending to upend the prophecy by making a Horcrux out of The One With the Power to vanquish him? And instead of him being his enemy, he would remake Harry in his own image -- remake him into himself. And what good is a father -- they're useless, "kill the spare." With that murder, he's free to go make his Mini-Me, and he's got a built-in WonderMother, Lily, to take care of it forever. He's reconstructed the childhood and family he was cheated out of, and gets to enjoy it vicariously.
But then Lily mucks it up by leaping in front of him and getting herself killed. His perfect Horcrux plan ruined. So there's nothing to do but kill Harry -- but of course that doesn't work because Lily just died...
And so when Voldemort comes back, he's really ticked at Harry and wants him dead all the more.
This could only work assuming that the spell Voldemort used that Lily took was either NOT an AK, or that it was, and that the AK is actually the spell used to make a Horcrux (my husband has a theory that the AK is the caster's soul issuing forth from his/her body to take another life, hence the "rushing" sound).
What I like about it is that it keeps some things tidy (like Harry isn't a Horcrux) and yet explains some critical questions (why Voldemort's family situation is so important, why Voldemort saw himself in baby Harry, why Voldemort told Lily to stand aside...) -- but what do you guys think?
gumshoe
NGallagher17
03-10-2005, 17:37
I believe that Harrys scar is the final horcrux and he will have to kill himself in the end.
I believe that Harrys scar is the final horcrux and he will have to kill himself in the end.
I dont think its possible to make a pice of skin into a advanced horcrux..
Do we know if you can turn a human into a Horcrux? Any examples?
Or is it just based on Nagini being one?
If you put some of your soul in a human wouldnt that humans soul "complain"? Can you have more then one soul? And if you do have some of Voldemorts soul inside of you wouldt you become Voldemort?
Alot of questions there :P
twista9988
04-10-2005, 19:04
What if Voldemort went there that night intending to upend the prophecy by making a Horcrux out of The One With the Power to vanquish him? And instead of him being his enemy, he would remake Harry in his own image -- remake him into himself. And what good is a father -- they're useless, "kill the spare." With that murder, he's free to go make his Mini-Me, and he's got a built-in WonderMother, Lily, to take care of it forever. He's reconstructed the childhood and family he was cheated out of, and gets to enjoy it vicariously.
But then Lily mucks it up by leaping in front of him and getting herself killed.
gumshoe
i cant see this happening. Voldemort takes to much pride in himself to even consider making someone else in his image, espeically the son of a mudblood. He thinks he is to great to make 'mini-me' who for one thing, could possibly grow up to oppose him. Also, i dont remember reading anything about Lily jumping in the way, they way i saw it, she got in front of harry before Voldemort attacked, hence Voldemort asking her to move.
my theory on why lily wasnt meant to be a horcrux (horcrux itself is an evil word):I think that Voldemort was slightly nervous when persuing harry. It was essential to his plan in life to kill harry, he couldnt afford any mistakes. I think that he didnt want to attack james or lily but had to attack James because he had a wand and would have killed him. He didnt want attack either of them because he knew lily was a very powerful witch and didnt want to take any chances on somehow not getting to harry. Maybe he worried that somehow harry would escape or some spell could from james or lily could somehow prevent him from being able to get to harry if he wasted time fighting them. So he kills james, then asks lily to move so that he can kill harry then kill lily later, but lily doesnt move and he kills lily and then is shamed by a baby
Hey guys,
Lily may be a Horcrux, but it is unlikely she would be an operating one - she's dead, an Inferus in the best(=worst) case. LV putting his soul into corpses is even less likely than putting it into living. I like the idea of HP being a horcrux, as it makes the storyline most interesting and makes most sense of all the humouring us (the readers) with fellow students thinking HP was posessed or a dark wizard etc.
The additional idea (I came across it in this corner) of Avada Kedavra being the very spell that creates a Horcrux is extremely appealing to me. Nobody decent uses it and it is likely that even the Death Eaters were never told the full truth - if AK indeed has the creation of horcrux as a side-effect. AK is said to be LV's invention although he may have only dusted it, but he undoubtedly went through an enormous work load in either case. He does not want anybody to be immortal apart from himself. Every spell needs full consciousness and determination on the caster's part in order for the spell to work to its fullest extent. Therefore, anybody with enough hatred can kill using AK, only LV can produce a Horcrux with it, because only LV knows. Come to think of it, no character in the books so far asked the question, what would happen if one used AK on a THING instead of a person. Simply, AK remains a very, very good candidate for the horcrux spell.
Finally, let me bring up something I noticed (and undoubtedly many others did) and what can have tremendous implications at undestanding, what REALLY happened the at the critical night at Godrick's Hollow. Voldemort's resurrection in GoF led to the famous wand-to-wand combat LV(home) vs. HP(road) and that one climaxed in the priori incantatem effect descending upon LV's wand. The order of the "ghosts" issuing from LV's wand was:
1) Wormtail's hand,
2) Cedric Diggory,
3) Frank Bryce,
4) Bertha Jorkins,
5) James Potter,
6) Lily Potter.
This means Lily had to die BEFORE James!!!:eek: We know that AK kills instantaneously, which either means James was attacked before Lily, but not by an instant-death curse (not by AK), or James was killed by AK after Lily, though of course before LV's attack (or whatever it was) on HP.
Nobody seems to be concerned by this, either in the HP books or in all the HP forums. I think this is of crucial importance, although I haven't given myself time to figure out details. If a Horcrux was indeed created that night, this should be of prime importance. And indeed, the first thing HP intends to do after he becomes 17 (thus unprotected at #4, Privet Drive) is to go to Godrick's Hollow, to the place, where it all had begun for him...
Digest and share your ideas!
A friend of mine that turned me onto this site has a theory that, just like Snape was creative and invented spells, Voldemort may very likely have created a spell that made a curse killing and Horcrux creation into one easy step.
He could use Avada Kedavra for just any old killing, but for special Horcrux making killings, he could have used a special killing curse... either one that already exists, but we just haven't heard of, or one of his own evil making...
perhaps Avada Horcrucio ???
Hey guys,
..... Voldemort's resurrection in GoF led to the famous wand-to-wand combat LV(home) vs. HP(road) and that one climaxed in the priori incantatem effect descending upon LV's wand. The order of the "ghosts" issuing from LV's wand was:
1) Wormtail's hand,
2) Cedric Diggory,
3) Frank Bryce,
4) Bertha Jorkins,
5) James Potter,
6) Lily Potter.
This means Lily had to die BEFORE James!!!:eek: We know that AK kills instantaneously, which either means James was attacked before Lily, but not by an instant-death curse (not by AK), or James was killed by AK after Lily, though of course before LV's attack (or whatever it was) on HP.
...
JKR (or was it her publisher ?) later explained that the order was a mistake.
Lily comes out and says that Harry's father is coming, and James is the last one.
It reads this way in my version, which must be a corrected printing.
I dont think its possible to make a pice of skin into a advanced horcrux..
Do we know if you can turn a human into a Horcrux? Any examples?
Or is it just based on Nagini being one?
If you put some of your soul in a human wouldnt that humans soul "complain"? Can you have more then one soul? And if you do have some of Voldemorts soul inside of you wouldt you become Voldemort?
Alot of questions there :P
Ah, but is the Horcrux the container of the soul, or the bit of soul itself ? I think both.
The scar tissue is only what encases the bit of Voldy's soul... together they make the Horcrux.
I know this may sound disgusting, but think of it almost like a cyst. Yuck !!!
To me, the real mystery with the Priori Incantatem from GOF is not so much
the order of "ghosts" appearing out of Voldy's wand, but the absence of the curse performed and backfired on Harry.
1) Wormtail's hand,
2) Cedric Diggory,
3) Frank Bryce,
4) Bertha Jorkins,
5) Lily Potter,
6) James Potter
If this is a list of the reverse order of Voldemort's last spells/curses...
where is the "I tried to kill Baby Harry" curse ?
Should be between Bertha and Lily...
To me, the real mystery with the Priori Incantatem from GOF is not so much
the order of "ghosts" appearing out of Voldy's wand, but the absence of the curse performed and backfired on Harry.
1) Wormtail's hand,
2) Cedric Diggory,
3) Frank Bryce,
4) Bertha Jorkins,
5) Lily Potter,
6) James Potter
If this is a list of the reverse order of Voldemort's last spells/curses...
where is the "I tried to kill Baby Harry" curse ?
Should be between Bertha and Lily...
Alright folks,
I didn't really know about the erratum that puts the order in order:o . Embarassed, I am. But this (quote Vestral) is indeed a nice point! Supposing every spell has a distinct "priori incantatem" trace, this leads to a transparent explanation: The curse that scarred Harry was the very curse that killed someone. I hesitate to say it was killing Lily or James, as nobody knows, how long the torn-away soul part lingers around its parent soul. Saying it was Lily's killing that is directly connected to Harry's scar is the most likely hypothesis.
But then, it is clearer and clearer, what happened at GH, isn't it? LV used Avada Kedavra in its Horcrux-potent form on Lily, while intending to make Harry - his prime rival - a Horcrux. He might have used the same curse on Harry wanting to make a Horcrux out of Lily, but Lily got in the way and thus received the killing part. Both fits perfectly, for it ensures LV to survive even in case HP indeed kills him in his body. Had LV originally wanted to make a Horcrux out of Lily, well, HP would be dead anyway and widowed Lily could be given to the Death Eaters (or one significant DE like Snape). A bulletproof reasoning, I dare say (many have had these ideas before, I claim no credit for makin them up). Additional evidence no.1: the curse did indeed kill (Lily, let's say), so it was not the killing that back-fired! Puzzling evidence no.2: It has never been mentioned in the books (and it troubles me all along) that LV's body or any remnant of it was found at the crime scene. Isn't this alarming? Voldemort: "... I was ripped from my body..." In book 1, when Quirrel dies and LV's spirit leaves, the body is left behind - in some form. At the GH instead, LV "disappeared". I cannot see, what this might mean.
However, I believe it was the Horcrux creation part of Lily's killing that didn't work for LV as expected. Possibly he was used to putting his soul pieces into objects that didn't resist, but Lily's sacrifice was such a strong counter-spell that it almost prevented LV from succeeding. LV was overall successful, Harry has the scar with LV's soul piece localized in it, but he was not able to penetrate Harry deeper than skin-deep and, more importantly, the part of his soul that should have remained in his body was too weak to carry on in a mortal body.
Another way to put it: when a person splits his/her soul by killing, normally the stronger, more vital part of the soul remains with the body and a small piece - barely functional - flies away. In Harry's case the stronger part of LV (at that moment) went into Harry and the smaller, the spirit, was left behind. We know that the spirit had to consume several lives on its way to a rise in a new body. How strong the part inside Harry's scar really is now, that remains to be seen.
Well, that was just another hypothesis. Questions follow, what we are supposed to expect to happen. Will Lily's sacrifice carry on in strength beyond Harry's 17. birthday to protect him from "contamination" with LV's soul? Or was it the compound effect of said sacrifice AND Harry's living at his aunt's that was preventing this from happening? Somehow I don't believe the scar awakens and will have to be fought right away, for it would work against JKR's main writing concepts.
In the happy end (i.e. the "HP does not die" scenario), the story might follow a line like this: Part of HP's elimination of LV will be that Harry looses the scar. Dealing with the scar has to happen (see above) and if he looses it completely, it would be a nice closing of his quest. By this he becomes normal, ordinary, nobody who meets him afterwards, will connect him with LV and people won't even believe him any more that he's the Harry Potter. Thus he'll be allowed a quiet life being an Auror, putting himself in mortal danger on a daily basis, while fighting the dark forces... Or maybe he just becomes a Quidditch player for the Cannons and for Britain.:D
I had a thread similar to this elsewhere. We came up with a theory that Lily was a Horcrux and passed it on to Harry while she was pregnant with him and Voldy found out about the prophecy and decided that it wasn't a good idea to have a bit of soul in the one with the power to kill him...
There was alot more to it, but it's quater to 2 in the morning and I've lost the file in my brain that contained the information...:)
Wow - some pretty hot thoughts in this one - I need to reply :p
Ok - wand order - offical explanation was that the very first editions of GoF had the wand order incorrect - was later corrected in all later editions.
This in itself lead to a large amount of speculation if JKR would really have made such a mistake to have the order in which people died wrong - but as I said it was corrected - BTW, if you have a copy that has Lily dying before James - keep it - that is a first edition ;)
One thing that struck me here - it is something I touched upon elsewhere - is the power of the eyes that JKR keeps talking about.
I often wondered the thing Lily did - the thing that she wasnt sure woudl save him - was to do with her getting into her son's mind at the point of attack.
I know I cant back that one up - but the eyes are very important and we are told in OoTP the mind tricks magical people can do.
I just wondered if Lily locked into Harry's mind at the point of attack, leading to her taking the AK ... and also being destine to become the Horcrux that also reversed.
The combination of what she created was enough to make the spell go haywire and lead to the backfired curse on Voldemort.
As I said - it is a little wild but figured I would get it out there for ya :)
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