Was it a Patronus?

[Tishri11]

Rosmerta rulz ;)
When I read that part - I thought it was Dumbledore patronus leaving him - almost like his soul departing ... but not for resurrection purposes - as said above just his patronus/soul off to the next big adventure ....

I dont know why I thought Patronus - I suppose becasue JKR recently said his Patronus was a Phoenix - it just seemed to work in my head that it skips off to be free - the Patronus was suppose to embody exactly what the person is ...
Well just me then :o

I also thought and continue to believe that it is DD's Patronus. Not that it is his soul departing, but because I believe DD is still alive (albeit in a barely conscious state), and that the Patronus is DD's means of communicating to others (fellow Order members perhaps?) that he is not dead.

[Alz]

I also thought and continue to believe that it is DD's Patronus. Not that it is his soul departing, but because I believe DD is still alive (albeit in a barely conscious state), and that the Patronus is DD's means of communicating to others (fellow Order members perhaps?) that he is not dead.
Interesting ...

What you are proposing is that Dumbledore released his patronus to warn the other members of the Order he wasnt dead?
Would, I suppose, be a more smarter move than Voldemort after he was ripped from body and left in limbo all those years - might also stop the Order rushing into anything rash given the new circumstances.
I like it - so gives you a thumbs up :D

[Federalist_10]

I just thought that it was symbolism...Actually, I really like that thought we have always known that the phoenix comes as a warning. But, maybe not as a fact that Dumbledore is not dead, but as the fact that Dumbledore has unfinished buisness. The question is will Dumbledore come back as a ghost because he does have unfinished buisiness that he needs to complete. I am not sure that Dumbledore would do what is best for him with death if he has something and important that needs to be told. In summation, Dumbledore is dead, but has something else that needs to be told. Something, important. Maybe, Dumbledore is in someway connected to Voldemort.

Voldemort has Nagini
Dumbledore has Fawks

They both want Harry

[gumshoe]

Wait, didn't I get OT'ed for suggesting it was a Patronus? I got the impression that I was being disrespectful to the dead and his mourners for suggesting it (and I assuredly meant nothing of the sort). So is it now discussable here, or is it still OT because it assumes Dumbledore is alive? Does it belong in Wild Spec?

Is there a "wry/pouty/undaunted" smiley-face you could add to the emoticon list, Alz?

gumshoe

[Alz]

*raises eyebrowse*

I think you and Forte were OT'ed because you were drifting in the manner and analysis of Dumbledore's death more than the relation to Dumbledore and Phoenixes - i dont think I OT'ed you for suggesting that the thing that emerged was a patronus!

You know - any topic that now has Dumbledore in discussion could possbily be split into the 2 camps - but that would suggest excessive in my eyes.
I guess we have to assume he is dead in relation to the writings we have so far - anything that makes the assumption he is still alive would suggest to me to be Wild Spec.

If you have a opinion that seems to touch the current discussion but would pull it drastically into a different path to what it was intended - these seems like good junctures to create a new thread and if the thought process is highly speculative - then indeed Wild Spec is your friend :)

*lowers eyebrowse*

[gumshoe]

Happy eyebrows? I hope so! I wasn't upset.

I re-read again and see what you OT'ed about. I had remembered it appearing that suggesting a Patronus was ot, but we've been gone so long.

If we should more cleanly break off the Patronus possibility from this thread, then I'll discuss it in WS.

Thanks for the feedback!
gumshoe

[Alz]

Your wish is my command ohhh Lady ;)

OK - so here is the deal with this thread ...
We are assuming that Dumbledore could be dead or alive - be sure to indicate which medium you feel it is ... but this isnt a Dumbledore is alive or dead debate!
We are asking the question at Dumbledore's funeral something left his body - some assumptions have been it was his patronus ...
So basically - you may take this to wherever you wish - this is wild spec and you can grow or add your own thoughts on the posts above ...

[Ana C.B.Rodrigues]

Yeah! Love this theory... it gives us a lot to think about. For instance... has Dumbledore done an Horcrux? or several? well it's quite possible this would explain his advanced age. And it would also explain how he knows so much about them.

[Seeker615]

Okay I am saying he is dearly departed. I don't think I would like the fact that he suddenly shows up alive. (and I am a huge DD fan) It just wouldn't do anything for the story to me. (Harry needs to go on alone and finish what he was born to do. He is now almost a man and will face Voldy alone as a man)

I imagined the phoenix to be his spirit flying away to peace. But isn't a patronus almost like a spirit? Everyone has a unique one and it is theirs alone. Maybe one's patronus leaves with the spirit?

[Alz]

I really dislike the idea Dumbledore used Horcruxes since he outright banned them in Hogwarts and seemed to indicate they are real dark magic - in fact even the one book that would mention them talked of dark magic ... but then again DiE and all :p

I think it was possibly Dumbledore's patronus departing - but see also wonder how that links in with Fawkes (phoenix and all) and the brother phoenix core wands etc ... it would seem almost like Fawkes could be seen as a horcrux based on Dumbledore's affinity with the phoenix - I just think horcrux is a bad thing and whatever the real link isnt one that will make Dumbledore re-birth from the ashes.

[Vold. E. Mort]

I still maintain that, like most things in JKR's world, there is a balance. It isn't a far stretch to believe there is a "light magic" version of a horcrux, and that DD would have made a few based on the tactic his enemy was using.

But, from a strict literal standpoint, I hope he's dead. Otherwise, his role of Gandalf to Harry's Frodo will be complete. Bringing back the "white wizard" for unfinished business is far too cliche. It was cool when Tolkien did it. Pulling that trick would cheaper the ending of HP for me.

[Ana C.B.Rodrigues]

Well It's the only way I believe Dumbledore would be alive... If not he is dead.
The only one I believe is still alive it's Sirius.

[Alz]

Kinda off key maybe - but what if the phoenix has the ability to preserve a part of his owner and bring that into someone else - it's kind of like the premise of a horcrux but rather than reviving the owner - it instead seals his knowledge or strengths that can be passed onto someone new?
Kind of like passing the tourch ... in this case to Harry?

[gumshoe]

I met another poster awhile back who thinks it was a Patronus. I have always thought so, but not that it was sending a message, just a bit of hocus-pocus.

The idea that a bit of Dumbledore transferred to Harry is interesting and connects up with the bit of Voldemort he seemed to take on -- adding one more layer to that: it was almost as if Harry took on more of Dumbledore all year, up to the point at the funeral when he laughs. But that would assume that Dumbledore is actually dead, wouldn't it? :D

[Ana C.B.Rodrigues]

Kinda off key maybe - but what if the phoenix has the ability to preserve a part of his owner and bring that into someone else - it's kind of like the premise of a horcrux but rather than reviving the owner - it instead seals his knowledge or strengths that can be passed onto someone new?
Kind of like passing the tourch ... in this case to Harry?


I love your theory.... as Far as I can remember this fits what Dumbledore said... remember... He would never truly leave Hogwarts while there is someone there who's loyal to him....

[Alz]

Well if H is a H and Dumbledore knew this and didnt want to share it - by implanting a piece of himself in a phoenix that Harry could use would help ensure Dumbledore hasnt left him and even in death helping him - kind of romantic but still plausible maybe ...

[Ana C.B.Rodrigues]

Good thought... phoenixes are imortal... so Dumbledore would never die... this makes me think If Voldemort would try to do the same...

[Alz]

Always made me wonder how rare Phoenixes are - because lets face it if you can seal a piece of soul in a living thing and the soul fragment doesnt die when the phoenix re-births, then it would make the mother of all horcruxes!
I mean we all know the characteristics of a Phoenix - arent they suited to someone who was looking to avoid death!

[Ana C.B.Rodrigues]

Yes... but I think we are all forgetting that phoenixes are pure and do possess great powers... I think that It's unlikely to become an horcrux, unless of course that when we're talking about really powerfull wizards everything is possible:S

[Alz]

Well this then becomes a side debate - are you able to choose if you become a horcrux or not if you are deemed to be sealable by the person looking to conceal soul!
As in - would you know, could you prevent it etc etc - a Phoenix is very powerful magically but is it capable of preventing itself becoming a horcrux?
Chances are we will never know - that is a digression I cant see JKR taking the time to address!

[Blanche A. McFusty]

Oh, I don't know. I think that if we follow the "Potter World Rules" we can surmise what is possible or not regarding phoenixes and horcruxes. JKR has made it clear that Fawkes is special in so many ways. Would Fawkes have the ability to be impervious to becoming a horcrux? I think so.

However, there does seem to be a bit of Dumbledore that has been ingrained in Fawkes. How do we reconcile that? I don't think it is as a horcrux. Earlier posts in this thread allude to a similar magic that is more friendly in nature than the creation of a horcrux. That fits with JKR's magical world.

[Alz]

It was interesting that JKR said Fawkes was only ever Dumbledore's ... and given the importance of phoenixes (as in Order of, brother wand cores, patronus of ...) it is plausible that Fawkes is the same as Nagini - we still dont know where she comes from yet she hangs around Voldemort and he really respects her ... perhaps there is another kind of magic that leads to this partnership?
That might fit in with the link Dumbledore shares with Fawkes and Voldemort shares with Nagini??