View Full Version : Centaurs Prediction
This was brought up on another forum i chat in (not a harry potter one though, so the answers aren't satisfactory).
is it possible that the warning Firenze gave 'The planets have been read wrongly before now, even by centaurs. I hope this is one of those times.' was referring to Voldemort being in the school, or looking into the future to the final battle?
We know they are secretive, but it is just silly for the centaurs to be wrong so soon...i mean, i like to think they have seen past Harry's successful escapes over the 6 years, to the final battle, where Firenze hopes they have read the planets wrong...
Actually the way I see that part - it seemed a little eerie ...
I wonder if perhaps that the centaurs have seen Potter die - It just seems to fit in with the tone of the conversation.
Of course - we could perhaps point towards the death of Dumbledore and them seeing it - but I think it would be more exciting as far as a story that what they are fearing was the fate of the person stood in front of them.
There is much debate on Harry's fate and this really isnt a topic I want to extend to in here ... but I feel it was loaded by JKR.
I think you are right not to go into Harry's fate here, but lets face it, he either lives or dies :p
what i want to understand, is whether the centaurs had looked further into the future than we were led to believe. I haven't got HBP here with me to check what Firenze has to say in it, but i like to think that Harry is going to prove them wrong, by surviving the final fight.
The centaurs seem to want to live in solitude.
Experience has probably shown them that the Wizarding world isnt trustworthy and as such they choose to live out there exisitance away from it all.
This doubt could also come from what they have observed in the stars.
It interested me when in OoTP there was that fountain that had the likes of a centau, house elf etc looking up at Wizarding folk - we know now the House Elfs are - I wonder if at the same time the Wizarding world did something to the centaurs - once again I am drifting.
I think there is something that the centaurs can read in the stars - not that I agree with it IRL - but for the matter of the books they seem to take something from their observations and Dumbledore seems to trust Firenze enough to have him teach Divination.
I think it is very possible and also probable that the Centaurs feel they have seen what will happen in the future with the wizarding world and decided not to intervene - otherwise they might get pulled into it.
Alas - it is a poor call on their behalf - because at some point Voldemort and his supporters are bound to come calling.
Padma Patil
08-11-2005, 14:31
Hmm, I think that was a little 'Look at this, this says something about the 7th book' clue from JKR.
It either means that the Firenze is wrong and the centaurs were not proven wrong yet, just that Harry will die in the 7th book. Or it means just what was said, the centaurs were wrong about Harry's death the first time and so there is doubt to what they say.
Okay, does that make any sence to anybody else but me? :p
Well the centaurs live by the stars - that means they invest a lot of faith in them.
This would suggest there is something to it - but then again if you read horoscopes there is one person who that info applies to - it's a case of numbers and odd's.
But still I am a little more inclind to belive that the centaurs have faith in this star gazing based on their correct readings.
When I first read PS/SS, the centaurs discussion stood out at me even back then - there is something they are seeing that they felt should not be shared!
I am in the process of reading the series again. Good old HBP has changed how I view the entire series! :rolleyes: I've been curious about the significance of the things the centaurs have said. I think they are going to play a big part in Book 7.
Why are we given little reminders of the the centaurs? This following excerpt is from PoA, p. 265 (U.S. paperback version) and seems to come out of no where and go no where--so why put it in?
He had a very strange dream. He was walking through a forest, his Firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery-white. It was winding its way through the trees ahead, and he could only catch glimpses of it between the leaves. Anxious to catch up with it, he sped up, but as he moved faster, so did his quarry. Harry broke into a run, and ahead he heard hooves gathering speed. Now he was running flat out, and ahead he could hear galloping. Then he turned a corner into a clearing and --
And of course Harry wakes up when Ron yells after Sirius attacks.
Silvery white screams to me memories - as in pensive memories ...
They are always described in that manner.
Maybe we will see someone produce a memory that leads to the centaurs - something that might help Harry?
I still think the centaurs are niave to think Voldemort wont come after them and that maybe they still have a bigger part in this series - notice JKR kept Firenze at Hogwarts in HBP ... a great link into the thinking and mindset of the centaurs ... and their star gazing!
Yes, and I'm looking especially for a reference I remember where Firenze (I think) said that you can't trust the readings. Everyone is putting so much stock in how the prophecy MUST be fulfilled. I don't think it does. Harry must play along to a certain extent because LV believes in the prophecy and won't let Harry alone. But I believe (hope!) that in the end Harry will do something other than fulfill the prophecy as it is written.
OotP, p. 604, U.S. Hardback Version
Frienze told them . . . that it was foolish to put much faith in such things anyway, because even centaurs sometimes read them wrongly . . . to impress upon them that nothing, not even centaur's knowledge, was foolproof.
I think this applies to the prophecy.
He had a very strange dream. He was walking through a forest, his Firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery-white. It was winding its way through the trees ahead, and he could only catch glimpses of it between the leaves. Anxious to catch up with it, he sped up, but as he moved faster, so did his quarry. Harry broke into a run, and ahead he heard hooves gathering speed. Now he was running flat out, and ahead he could hear galloping. Then he turned a corner into a clearing and --
Actually on second reading of that and based on the book and things we learned later - it seems to follow patronus pretty well - as in what JKR said about patronuses being used as a way of communication within the order and also could be the patronus he starts to create in PoA ... just a couple of addon's to that :p
Yes, the silvery thing does sound like a patronus. I was particularly noticing the hooves and galloping references. I really believe the Centaurs have been telling us important things if we knew what we were looking for--likes Mars and Saturn. They seemed to come up with practically every casual (nonconfrontational)conversation Harry or Hagrid had with them outside of a classroom (Firenze). Is Firenze telling Harry the prophecy has been misunderstood?
Umm here is where I struggle once again ...
On one hand we have Dumbledore saying the only people that knew about the prophecy was Dumbledore and Harry ... and JKR says she uses Dumbledore and Hermione to pass on facts ...
Then we have JKR answering a question about why the Longbottoms were attacked ...
The Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him.
Answer: No, they weren't. They were very definitely sent after Neville's parents. I can't say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret.
Then the suggestion that the centaurs might also be aware ...
Thing is - there is some contradition here me thinks .... worse of all and most delicous is JKR's comments!
I'm thinking that the Centaurs have read the stars for themselves. Perhaps it's a way to have a second witness to possible future events? It just bugs me that DD was willing to let Firenze be completely ostricized from his group to come and teach at Hogwarts. DD had to have done it because he knew eventually he'd return as Headmaster, and he needed to keep Divination as a subject to protect Trelawney. That was quite a lot to ask of Firenze. And what happens to Trelawney now that DD is "gone"?
Ohh please don't get me wrong - I was more postulating exactly what was the truth about how many people knew about the prophecy - I think you are right and they may have seen something in the stars - look right back to PS/SS when Firenze is warned not to give details of the future or interfere when the centaurs worked out that the boy he saved was Harry Potter!
It just intrigues me how and why the knowledge of the prophecy would still need to be under wraps by JKR ...
I think it is more than plausible that the centaurs have seen it written in the stars and might have a more accurate finishing to the story than what Dumbledore made of it - lets face it I have seen numerous thoughts on the dissection of the prophecy and what it meant - and JKR did say she/Sybil worded it very carefully!
Well, a lot of people know there's a prophecy but not what's in it. And, as you suggested, the Centaurs may have read the stars differently than DD has. I think Trelawney is in deep kimshee in Book 7, if LV is still seeking the prophecy. Surely Snape told him who the seer had been when he told LV originally. With DD gone, she's certainly the only one left--besides Harry himself. And McG doesn't like Trelawney. Will McG continue divination? Does she know what Firenze sacrificed to help DD (and Harry)?
And what does JK have in mind that she needed to word the prophecy so carefully about?
Slight divertion - but do you think Snape ever told Voldemort who made the prediction/prophecy to Dumbledore?
I'm going with a no - and another indicater that Snape is more loyal to Dumbledore ...
Actually I am liking the idea more and more the centaurs are seeing something different in that prophecy/prediction/future happening - there is no denying that the centaurs didnt want what was seen discussed with Harry - I wonder if Harry could get Firenze to fully disclose the details and thoughts of the centaurs.
It is more exciting than it sounds - anything that can make what appears on face value to be a easy to follow prophecy more elaborative must be embraced!
My feeling is that Snape probably told LV who told the prediction--if he knew who it was. I believe that was before he turned to the right side.
Yes, don't you think Firenze should play a part in this somehow? He was so supportive of Harry in SS/PS and then sacrificed so much to help DD. He's one of those that I think has earned a piece of this pie in some way.
Well the centaurs have lived a long time - and pretty much self reliant - so they are doing something right. Even when Voldemort was at his height I dont think he ever went into the Forbidden Forest after the centaurs - so I am guessing they are pretty much classed as untouchable.
Given their thoughts and views on stargazing - you have to assume they are seeing something in there that is right ... I wonder if they are known for it?
If so - could be that they become a 'tool' for Voldemort ... I think he is very keen to know what is coming this next time after the last time!
Could be LV would seek them out--if he can get past his own pure blood biases.
This confuses me - Lord Voldemort despises anything that isn't pure blood, yet is happy to get the Giants on side (and sarcastically i wonder why) yet he seems to have left the centaurs alone.
Why? They are self sufficient, intelligent beings, that could spread the word of Voldemort's evilness. You would think he would wipe them out.
But then, they don't seem to take sides. They ignore the world around them therefore causing no problems for either side.
Has that balance been disturbed by Firenze? I would think it has, but what it means, I don't know.
Their predictions may have included their own reactions to what is going on, hence not wanting to share them with anyone.
I am still tossing up how far ahead JKR was thinking when she wrote about their original predictions, but i am beginning to suspect they didn't just involve Harry.
I believe the centaurs predictions are more general than that. there a re billions of stars, and to read just one boys future from them is just a little too hard to believe.
if you are still following my drift here,i think they have seen much more than Harry's fate, but rather the fate of the wizarding/magical world.
Or perhaps even two sides to it - if Voldemort defeats Harry and vice versa. They wouldn't want to tell Harry what they had seen, because that would add a lot of pressure on to Harry. Imagine if he already knew the outcome...would he slack off and therefore risk the fates changing, or would he go nuts wondering how on earth he gets to that ending?
Yes, isn't that the challenge that comes from knowing the future? Ever read anything by Robert Heinlein? He was a SciFi writer beginning in the 1930s up to the 1990s. His earlier stuff, I think, was his best, and he received several Hugo Awards. He wrote a short story about a guy who created a machine that could tell the exact date someone would die. The insurance companies wigged out. Uhh...sorry--started wandering down the garden path there . . .:o
It is very curious that LV seems not to have approached the Centaurs--but maybe he did? They seem rather testy, generally. And I agree with you that they probably see a much larger picture than Harry Potter, but I remember how forceful Firenze was about Harry right from the very beginning (bolding & italics are mine):
"Firenze!" Bane thundered. "What are you doing? You have a human on your back! Have you no shame? Are you a common mule?"
"Do you realize who this is?" said Firenze. "This is the Potter boy. The quicker he leaves this forest, the better." . . .
Firenze suddenly reared on to his hind legs in anger, so that Harry had to grab his shoulders to stay on.
"Do you not see that unicorn?" Firenze bellowed at Bane. "Do you not understand why it was killed? Or have the planets not let you in on that secret? I set myself against what is lurking in this forest, Bane, yes, with humans alongside me if I must."
I'm sure this is why Firenze sacrificed everything to come and teach at Hogwarts.
From Firenze's comments there I think it suggests he personally saw something to do with Voldemort and decided to do all he could to try and prevent it ...
His remarks suggest he has set himself against what was in that forest - the same thing that killed the unicorn for blood - and he would fight side by side with the humans to rid the world of him ...
What it suggests most is perhaps he can see the centaurs being attacked or defeated by Voldemort and he decided to try and 'fight the future' rather than ignore or hide from it!
And perhaps he agrees with DD in this issue--fight evil wherever you find it rather than hide from it and hope it won't notice you?
I agree but feel there is more too it - to be so confrontational with the herd - to do what he later did and be outcast from the centaurs - whatever he saw in the stars, he knows that Voldemort has to be stopped or something bad is going to happen - and I'm not all that sure it is all linked to the welfare of Harry - something big would come if/when Voldemort returns - I think we are seeing that now as we are preparing for war in many factions of the magical world ...
"Do you not see that unicorn?" Firenze bellowed at Bane. "Do you not understand why it was killed? Or have the planets not let you in on that secret? I set myself against what is lurking in this forest, Bane, yes, with humans alongside me if I must."
This sounds as though Firenze is mocking the Centaurs' "reading" of the planets. Is that because he has seen it differently or perhaps interprets it differently? He certainly sees it as enough of a threat to make a lot of personal sacrifices for his beliefs.
LOL - never read it that way before until you highlighted it - you think he was being sarcastic?
I like it only because I never saw it that way before - would be kind of funny if he is mocking something the centaurs have lived their lives by for so long and would have stood against him even more when he was booted out of the herd!
Nice pickup :D
Well, I certainly think Firenze has chosen a course of action different from the others. Will he remain alone when the final battle comes?
I think there is a chance when the centaurs really see what is happening that Firenze may act as a bridge between the races to allow a unified stance.
While Firenze may see or even read things different to his people - I feel he still wants to be part of them and looks ay his exclusion from the herd as a way to try and make things right with what he knows and also eventually to return to his people. Perhaps what he saw suggests that in a while he will get to go back - hence why he stood up and was kicked out?
I hope so. They're certainly cool characters, and they were important enough to be included in the fountain at the MoM. In fact, could looking at who was included in the fountain be a clue to which groups will be important? There are other magical creatures that were not included in the fountain. I wonder why. I also wonder if SPEW is in the books only for laughs. Will the house elves be more involved since they are included in the fountain? I wonder if Dobby could have been involved if DD faked his death. Dobby makes a comment about being willing to throw himself off the highest tower for DD.
It would be nice if Firenze saw in the future a time he would be accepted back in the herd. But it speaks loads to his strength of character if he did not and was still willing to take the path he did in supporting Harry and DD.
I noticed OoTP threw up some interesting comments from Firenze on the matters of Stargazing and the future ...
'..and observe the heavens. Here is written, for those who can see, the fortunes of our races.'
' ..and that you have mapped the stars' progress through the heavens. Centaurs have unravelled the mysteries of these movements over centuries. Our findings teach us that the future may be glimpsed in the sky above us -'
'..I, however, am here to explain the wisdom of centaurs, which is impersonal and impartial. We watch the skies for the great tides of evil or change that are sometimes marked there. It may take ten years to be sure of what we are seeing,'
'In the past decade, the indications have been that wizardkind is living through nothing more than a brief calm between two wars. Mars, bringer of battle, shines brightly above us, suggesting that the fight must break out again..'
Then shortly after this Firenze then dismisses putting too much faith in these things - so it does make you wonder!
Yes, and if the prophecy turns out to have really meant nothing (except to sucker LV), JK can say she warned us?
The last quote suggests they were seeing the ressurection of the Dark Lord - but that isnt to say they see the prophecy ...
They might see it as it is - the prophecy was possibly made up etc but most important it wasnt a big thing - it was only made so because of Voldemort's belief in it ...
The most important thing is they must have seen that when the Dark Lord was supposedly killed he wasnt and they were seeing him coming back to complete the second war ...
... or perhaps they classed war one was Grindelwald and the second war as Voldemort?
If this is the case - what they are seeing could be more interesting!
I'm not suggesting the prophecy was made up. I think Trelawney truly "saw" something. The question is how accurate it is that long before an event. Are there no opportunities to change the future--like Scrooge?
Well see this is where the future is different from the past - this means changing the whole lot.
The past is a record of what has happened - it is factual and etched in time - as such it can be read and changed ...
The future has still not happened and as such is still fully capable of being affected and changed by current events - there is no constant - and I think JKR expresses this throughout her books ...
The prophecy is a reflection of what was to come before any made any changes - if Sybil was capable of re-seeing that prophecy - would it play the same?
I don't think so - I think Dumbledore has already tried to change the future - we may play to the same conclusion but I think Dumbledore has tried to make changes to the outcome he saw ... thus denying the future ...
Unless - he really believes in it - then he would leave everything alone to come to the logical conclusion ... but we also know he does cast doubts on the validity of the prophecy himself - just words that were made real because someone took them literally ...
My point is - if the centaurs saw this coming - they didn't have the prophecy - so their view could be adaptable and changeable - they might see the subtle changes and the different outcome ...
Especially if they keep reading the stars. Poor Trelawney's only made two prophecies--and doesn't remember either one! The Centaurs can keep updating.
Exactly - I would really like to see a re-reading of the contents of that Prophecy now we have had 16 years pass and Voldemort did try to attack the chosen one.
Dumbledore's words about Voldemort already having been vanquished does make me wonder if indeed the prophecy is still accurate, or since the vanquish has taken place it will give more details on the eventual outcome.
This prophecy was made well before the attacks - as such did it take into account the freaky backfire?
We know no-one has ever survived the AK before - as such did the prophecy see it?
Still would be great to actually hear or see what the centaurs were seeing and the impact of that based on the prophecy and events as they transpired!
Yes, and it feels like the Centaurs and all their "Mars is bright tonight" and references to Saturn and Mars and then Firenze's classes should play a role of some kind in Book 7. Otherwise, with the exception of Firenze saving Harry in the Forbidden Forest and taking over Divination (rather than allowing Dolores to do away with the subject and Trelawney to be out in the world and prey for LV), what have the Centaurs obviously done to further the plot?
And speaking of Dolores doing away with the subject, we know how McG feels about it--and Trelawney. Will Divination be back next year? Oh, now that I think of it, DD must have provided some kind of instructions if only for Firenze. Where would he go?
I think Trelawney is a target (if LV is still seeking the prophecy) even if she stays, and Hogwarts should seem more vulnerable with DD gone. And Trelawney kept muttering about going somewhere she is appreciated. She has no idea the danger she's in. If she was thinking of leaving, with McG's rather open animosity, will she leave on her own?
Dumbledore's words about Voldemort already having been vanquished does make me wonder if indeed the prophecy is still accurate
You know, when I was reading this again, I realized the prophecy could have been referring to what happened at GH as the vanquishing as that's exactly the term DD used to described what happened. So if that part of the prophecy has already been fulfilled, what next?
See this could be the clever thing by JKR - we are all still sure Harry has to vanquish Voldemort - yet why did JKR use the exact same words to describe what happened to the Dark Lord that night?
It could be that we are looking at the prophecy wrong and it is indeed 2 parts - the first part has been played out and in fact the second part is a different matter ...
Harry vanquished the Dark Lord - now we are left with either having to die at the hands of the other - we know this is the case as Voldemort wont stop till Harry is dead ...
Maybe this is anothet thread - but I do wonder if perhaps we could learn the more up-to-date versions of the fates for Harry and Voldemort given all that has happened in the past and the impact on future events ...
I noticed this yesterday and found it striking:
PoA, p. 426 (U.S. paperback version)
. . . Hasn't your experience with the Time-Turner taught you anything, Harry? The consequences of our actions are always so complicated, so diverse, that predicting the future is a very difficult business indeed . . ."
That is like a perfect quotes isnt it - it really does show what we are suggesting.
Because the future is so diverse and complicated and can also be affected by change - would the prophecy taken all that into account?
I dont think so ... and in that weakness is the centaurs strength - they are always looking at the stars and as small things are changed - they will see the impact on the future.
Of course - this could also explain Dumbledore's watch - he could be going backwards and forwards with the future observing how the small changes he is making is changing the future ... that is highly speculative
It's like the prophecy was a snapshot in time--what might have happened at that time. And if the first part of the prophecy actually was fulfilled in GH, it wouldn't have had that much time to be impacted, whereas the other part about "one cannot live while the other survives" has had lots of time to be complicated.
Of course - another way to look at that - Dumbledore could do little the night of the attack as he wasnt fully aware - ergo first part or prophecy plays out - but now he knows it has begun and is being played out, he can change things and hopefully will make things very complicated!
Would fit is as well no - 2 parts to that prophecy, one part happens that means the prophecy was real - second part can be changed with a little manipulation.
How did DD know so much about what happened at GH? Since it was Halloween and he should have been at the feast, some have suggested perhaps there was a headmaster/mistress portrait at the Potter house, and he found out that way. The portrait could have described what happened. There's also the possibility that DD timed it back and saw what happened--he couldn't change it, but he saw what happened. There also seems to be a bit of time lag between when it happened and Harry was brought to the Dursleys. Hagrid said he took Harry from the house.
Could the prophecy reference about "vanquish" happen more than once?
The prophecy can be manipulated all they want, now that Voldemort set it in motion. The prophecy doesn't say who wins, or how they battler. Once Voldemort chose Harry, the rest was left for Dumbledore to set up., to give Harry the best possible chance of making it to the age where he could go up against Voldemort.
The centaur's prediction works much in the same way.
This is what they have seen-but nothing is set in stone. At any point, something can happen to alter the course, but perhaps at the moment, while Harry still doesn't truly understand what it is he has inside him, what they see is not a good outcome.
Something that strikes me every time I read it is in GoF, when Krum gets the Snitch--to end the game on his terms. I hope the future seen by the Centaurs includes Harry having the chance to take the game to LV's turf (so to speak) and end this on his (Harry's) terms. Thinking back on Firenze's support, I think perhaps it may.
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