View Full Version : Dumbledore Guilty?
OK, was going through a listening exercise on the way to work - was listening to the chapter when Dumbledore meets the young Riddle in the Orphanage - then it struck me.
Looking deeper into Dumbledore - I have concluded that he should actually feel very guilty that effectively - he set Voldemort on the world... This isn't DiE this is just an opinion I would like your thoughts on.
To the point when Dumbledore met Riddle - Riddle knew he was different but didn't know how so - he was able to do a few things - things that made him feel special - but it was more out of spite and hatred - clumsy you could call it.
Then Dumbledore comes along - and effectively initiates him into the Magical world - gives him the opportunity and chance to grow these special skills he had - to make him into a Wizard.
Dumbledore declares to Harry at the end of his Pensive vision he had no idea what he was dealing with - yet just before he was telling Harry to notice a few things - and gave his opinions that Riddle at that age was already dangerous - he was aware of his skills and was even using them to harm - he was being manipulative and also was showing clear signs of concern.
So why did he proceed?
Why did he carry on after he met with young Riddle and got a feel for him - he knew even back then that something wasn't right with the boy ... but instead he pushed ahead and gave Riddle full access to facilities and people that would only serve to make Riddle more powerful.
I propose that one of the great sadness and also guilt of Dumbledore was it was he that set Riddle down the path to become Voldemort - did he really exercise the excellent judgement we all assume him to have?
Thoughts please :)
Fortescue
25-10-2005, 14:29
I'm only guessing here, but I think Dumbledore would want Riddle at Hogwarts where he could be watched to some degree. Riddle was all ready using magic so it was only a matter of time before he found a way to hone his skills on his own. Dumbledore might have viewed it as a necessity to keep Riddle close - it would be better to keep someone who was possibly dangerous close so he could watch him and have some kind of control over what Riddle learned.
You could view it as Dumbledore aided Riddle to become Voldemort, but I think Riddle would have eventually found that path on his own.
See, I would contest that last point.
All Riddle knew was that he had special powers - he was different etc - it was Dumbledore that gave him identity and also means to become what he did.
If Dumbledore never got around to telling Riddle about Hogwarts - to have trusted what he was already feeling, Tom was bad - then he could have saved the Wizarding world from Voldemort. There is no doubts Riddle was bad and would have proved to be a bad muggle - but once he had his identity it then made him what he became.
I think Dumbledore's biggest flaw came back to haunt him - he thought he could change Riddle - saw the good in him - took the steps to intergrate him into the Magical society - and ultimatly made a huge error.
I think even he knows this as well.
To a certain extent I agree, Alz, but imagine Riddle as a Muggle with powers he had taught himself to control and no sense of right and wrong (or not caring anyway).
If DD had left Riddle in the orphanage, I think he would have killed many people before he became an adult. Could he have been stopped, with his unpredictable and powerful magic that he'd taught to himself? Maybe, but he could have exposed the magical world with his actions.
Dumbledore taking him in delayed the devastation. He was taught to control his powers, and he was taught the difference between good and bad magic. It gave the world a clear picture of who Voldemort is.
Had he been left in the orphanage and discovered later, after everything he'd done, the magical world would have pitied him. Believed he was only that way because he was abandoned. And he would still have turned against them all for that.
I guess what I mean is that either way, Dumbledore would have to feel guilty, because Riddle, no matter what, was going to become an evil wizard, whether he knew what he was or not.
SnarkologyMajor
28-12-2005, 16:33
My feeling is that there is no way around the fact that Dumbledore is culpable for what Tom Riddle became-not only for giving him his magical identity(he could have been easily monitored left in the muggle world), but also because he neglected to take him under his wing and care for him. This behavior is totally at odds with the Dumbledore who believes in second chances. J.K.R. has said that Voldemort has never been loved and Dumbledore always tries to see the good in people. Why didn't he try to nurture Tom and give him a sense of being cared for? Of course I also believe that Tom Jr. was evil the moment he arrived on this earth and that Albus was acting in accord w/this concept. What had to be-had to be....:eek:
DumbledoreLives
28-12-2005, 23:27
If the wizarding world, i.e. the ministry, is aware whenever a witch or wizard is born, then they would have been watching Tom Riddle, Jr. since he was born. If this is so, then they, the ministry and Hogwarts board of governors are responsible, not just Dumbledore (don't blame the messenger). If we are assuming that Dumbledore should have acted on his initial suspicions, then all students in Slytherin would be in perpetual detention, under surveillence or all chucked in Azkaban right after completing their 7th year.
Sure, Dumbledore has guilt that he didn't fully realize what TRjr would later become. The same could be said about Yoda and Anakin Skywalker. (If Yoda and the Jedi Counsil had embraced Ani and his abilities, Darth Vader would not have emerged.) I'm sure many people of authority in today's societies blame themselves when children they've mentored, or came into contact with grew up to be criminals and/or mass murderers. Hind sight is always 20-20. But even if Dumbledore had his doubts and some evidence of TRjr's pathology at the time, what could he have done? If every child born with magical abilities is given the opportunity at a magical education, the answer is, nothing. Looking at it from a certain warped perspective, if TRjr set a prescedent and were denied his education for his inadvertent magical actions prior to his initiation into the magical world (like tormenting the other orphans), then the same fate could have befallen HP. From a certain totally warped perspective, he defied his aunt and uncle and and tormented Dudley and did highly unusual things whenever he was upset.
I agree that it was safer for TRjr to be at Hogwarts where he had certain restrictions and rules to follow and could be monitored by his professors, including Dumbledore, to some extent. I think these efforts were like attempting to reform a wild dog. There's only so much that can be done. Eventually the wild dog will cut loose, find a pack, establish dominance and come back to bite the hand that fed it.
There may be numerous layers to this train of thought that have not yet been explored in the story. We all know that Dumbledore is, as is every other wizard, human, therefore flawed. I believe he is a skilled legilimens, but there's no clear evidence that he is a seer. His conclusions and courses of actions are for the most part based on his uncanny ability to know how other's think, on human nature, not actually seeing the future.
SnarkologyMajor
29-12-2005, 02:16
While I want to agree with much of your defense of Albus -I love the old wizard:D I feel that Dumbledore's handling of/treatment of Tom Jr. is a huge clue to the whole septology and Voldemort himself. His actions are completely at odds with what we know of his past actions-ei. Harry, Snape, Hagrid, etc. and the missing pieces(lol) of Voldemort's story are the key to the path he chose to take w/Tom.
While I want to agree with much of your defense of Albus -I love the old wizard:D I feel that Dumbledore's handling of/treatment of Tom Jr. is a huge clue to the whole septology and Voldemort himself. His actions are completely at odds with what we know of his past actions-ei. Harry, Snape, Hagrid, etc. and the missing pieces(lol) of Voldemort's story are the key to the path he chose to take w/Tom.
Wow - totally nodding ones head to this and other post!
Dumbledore could see the young Riddle - could feel him out - he was the first magical person to greet him and assess him (sure spec states other magical people could have gotten to Riddle before this moment - that is spec!) and he would have been aware that what he heard from the staff - coupled with this short initial meeting would have screamed this boy needs to be taken in hand and mentored - not suspect and shadow from the start.
There is a reason it was Dumbledore that came to the orphanage instead of Dippet and there is a reason he formed his cold opinion of Riddle rather than the fatherly, guiding role he showed Harry - maybe this is why he is like what he is with Harry - because he fears that if the love and attention wasn't poured in - he would move the same way as Riddle.
Dumbledore gave Harry his identity - his past and all his connections - he could have done the same for Riddle - but he didn't ...
Is Harry like a second bite of the cherry for Dumbledore?
Dumbledore gave Harry his identity - his past and all his connections - he could have done the same for Riddle - but he didn't ...
Are you sure DUmbeldore would have wanted to go in there and say Hey, your father was a muggle, your mum was an inbred witch and in a long line of evil witches and wizards who believe that muggles are filth and wizards who miz with them are worse?
I don't think Dumbledore even knew at that time that Riddle was the heir of Slytherin. In fact, I am positive, because it was when the Chamber was opened that Dumbledore started to keep a closer eye on Riddle.
Dumbledore treated Harry the way he did because he knew who Harry was, and had a special place in his heart for Harry's parents.
The second bite of the cherry concept is, in my opinion, partially correct. Perhaps Dumbledore felt he should have found out more about Riddle before going to see him. (or, a new though, maybe he did know who he was, which is why he got there first. he probably offered his services to Dippet at the time).
I don't think his treatment of Harry was all about giving himself a second chance at doing it right. I believe whole heartedly, and obviously, that his treatment of Harry was to make sure he was ready for everything his (prophecised) life could throw at him.
SnarkologyMajor
30-12-2005, 05:03
I guess you could say I'm not looking at this from the standpoint that what Dumbledore did constituted a major screwup-it's more about Tom Riddle Jr. being evil through and through. I just think that maybe Dumbledore was aware of alot more things about Tom than we the readers are led to believe-we're still missing a large piece of the puzzle here:( My daughter just jumped all over my butt about this-so I think I should qualify. I'm saying that we have a third option when it comes to Dumbledore-
1. Dumbledore is good and screwed up royally w/Tom
2. Dumbledore is evil or
3. Dumbledore is good and did everything the way he did for a reason we don't know about yet
I'm really undecided on this and just trying to keep options open:D -J.K.R. has left out so much concerning Albus that we probably won't know until she tells us:p
Dumbledore has showed on many occasions what he can dig up given the motivations - HBP was a pure example of how much he can find out when he wants to - I think there was a lot more scope for Dumbledore to understand Riddle before he became what he ultimately did and to also try and change it.
I personally think him introducing Riddle to magic was a big mistake but the unforgivable part was him knowing that this boy was different - seeing him slowly become what he did - and never really stepping in - Riddle in the diary said Dumbledore kept and annoyingly close eye on him - Dumbledore suspected him from that initial meeting - while you cant stop destiny I think if anyone could have changed things - it would have been Dumbledore - yet he introduced the boy to a world that he later turned on and became what he did ...
Sirius Potter Fan
30-12-2005, 16:09
I don't think Dulmbledore had any choice in the matter. We know that the ministry watches for magic in the nonmagical population, and that everyone who exhibits magical ability is offered a place at Hogwarts. That is just standard procedure, no matter what their morals and values are. I think that if Riddle ever stood a chance of being good, it would have been from being at Hogwarts. I agree that in hindsight he perhaps should have been watched closer, but. . . that wasn't known then. . . Many of the proffessors really liked him. He didn't show hiw true self to any other than his closest "followers" in school. Left to himself in the orphanage, he would indeed have figured things out on his own, and most likely made himself very obvious and as said before exposed the wizard world. They could have perhaps modified memories and put him in Azkaban, but with what he could do without training or a wand, he could have even then been very formidible. Also. . . if he were to have started using his powers in evil manners on his own, it would have been known to many in the wizarding world, and a dark minded wizard would have eventualy taken him under his wing and then. . . same ending, if not worse. . . I certainly couldn't blame Dumbledore at all. What was it that Marge said?. . . "what will out will out"
SnarkologyMajor
31-12-2005, 04:20
Well this is certainly a thread that divides-I got in a rather heated debate w/my 14-yr old on this one:eek: While I feel that there may be a reason for it-I just can't accept what I feel are qualifiers or excuses for Dumbledore's lack of caring here-didn't he himself say that indifference does more damage than outright hate? When it is said that he just didn't know what could happen-I feel that we're forgetting who we are talking about here. Dumbledore is the only one that Voldemort ever feared-Why? That hasn't ever really been answered. However-we have been given ample evidence at just how powerful he is. I logically can't just ignore such contradictory behaviour on his part-no matter how much I love him. This has to be one of the biggest clues that she gave us-a clue to Dumbledore and more importantly a clue to Tom Riddle Jr.
The fact remains that when Dumbledore is focused and wants to make something happen he can - he can investigate, get details, has contacts the whole lot - he is a well connected person.
He also looks for the good in everyone - but yet never follows this in Riddle - a child he knew was different and dangerous even back then. There appears to be a certain amount of neglect in how he dealt with Riddle - especially since he knew the risks and dangers even way back then - he heard the stories of Riddle and the other orphanes - he knew that young Riddle was showing very advanced uses of magic ...
SnarkologyMajor
02-01-2006, 02:49
I hate to say it, and HeleneB mentioned it and I have to agree- wasn't Dumbledore awfully irresponsible w/his handling of Draco also? If I was Katie Bell's mother I would be pretty angry to know that Dumbledore was aware that Draco was trying to kill him-yet didn't do something more to stop him-thereby having innocent people(Katie and Ron) hurt by Draco's attempts at murder. I understand that he didn't want Draco killed, but it seems that he should have done something that would have prevented Katie and Ron almost being killed. In the muggle world we're talking major lawsuit!
Hey totally agree - but it has been said multiple times Dumbledore is willing to break eggs in order to make the ultimate omlette!
Think about other times - like with the Potters - he knew they were going to be attacked yet never moved them to Hogwarts or under his control - never was their secret keeper (still I think there is a reason for that!) ... yet he was all too aware of the prophecy and let it play.
Dumbledore has a 'plan' he mentioned this in OoTP I think - I believe that he set about this plan based on the prophecy and has never adjusted it based on what was going on around - no matter who got hurt etc ... the bigger picture is more valuable than the short term losses to him ... does this make him guilty - sure it does - does it make him evil - split in the community ... but one thing you can say about Dumbledore is he thinks he is acting the in the better good.
With the locket and the mead he had no advanced notice these were going to be used - he rolled with the punches and while I see and respect the point - you have to question was he just acting in the bigger picture?
Dumbledore is a fair guy. He gives EVERYONE a chance. . .and in most cases even SECOND chances. He has a flair for trusting people. That may have been his weakness. The way I see it, DD wasn't going to deny little Tommy the privelage of developing his powers, in essence denying him his rights as a wizard, simply because he was a mean kid.
DD probably figured that Tom would choose the right path. . . he assumed wrong. Voldemorts rise to power was no fault of DD, because as DD said in chanber of secrets. . .(Paraphrase) "we are who we are based on the CHOICES we make." Tom CHOSE to turn evil. . . DD wasn't going to deny him his right to choose, that would've been hypocritical.
Agreed - it would be unjust for Dumbledore not to allow Tom choices once at Hogwarts - but would also have been neglectful for Dumbledore not to have taken more of a steering hand based on what he knew about the boy and what he was suspecting and seeing Tom the student doing ...
If he really is into giving second chances then he knows he has a role in that - I mean not like he would give Voldemort a second chance just because he did wrong in the past ...
Dumbledore isnt blind - in fact the exact opposit - he ie very clever - for Tom to follow the path he did with little to no resistance from Dumbledore must chalk up as a mistake!
I still think Dumbledore feels guilt based on the fact he introduced the boy to magic and watched him become what he did - maybe he couldnt have stopped him becoming what he did - but I think he feels he could have done more to protect those that have been hurt in the process!
Well DD is human and we have to cut him some slack, He can't spend all of his time trying to prevent someones mistakes. . . he's a busy wizard. one might even argue that he couldv'e done more for Draco as well. But as you know DD hasn't the time to keep a constant eye on children he SUSPECTS might be potential dark wizards.
See - I think he had more than a suspicion that Riddle was in for a turbulent future - he did remark how surprised he was that someone so young had such control over their magic ...
I agree - Dumbledore cant see and be everywhere - but he knew back then that the person he was introducing to Hogwarts was a person that was very different ...
You could argue that Dumbledore is pretty selective with his constant eye and facts to hand - the matter of the Potters being attacked and killed jumps right to hand - how much detail did he have on that little episode!
SnarkologyMajor
20-01-2006, 05:05
He knew that Lily sacrificed herself for her son-he knew that Harry's scar came from Voldemort's attempt to AK Harry-he knew that Voldemort wasn't dead. How does he know the first two if he wasn't there or got the info. from someone who was there? How did he know that Voldemort wasn't dead if he didn't know about the horcruxes? He also knew that Tom Riddle Jr. was dangerous right from the start-he hurt animals and people which are signs of a psychotic personality. You would think someone like that would need alot of nurturing, not just keeping an "annoyingly close watch" on them-that would make the paranioa that Tom already displayed grow in volumes. Isn't it also odd that Dumbledore has almost sounded admiring of Voldemort a few times?
*Nods head in total agreement* ... and thus you see the grand contradiction ...
Side point before I continue - JKR had a bigger hand in PS/SS film than the rest - in a sequence I am not sure the US people saw, when Harry is getting his wand and Ollivander is telling him about the person that gave him that scar (or it could have been with Hagrid - ummm) well anyways there is a flash back sequence that shows the Dark Lord approaching the house and blowing open the door ... reason I like this is it suggest that if anyone else was there - then they arrived after Voldemort started or they were there from the start ...
Reason I say that is I believe wholeheartedly that someone else was there that night - which meant we have all the good details and also explains the house being levelled yet a baby is kept safe ... remove all that evidence but keep the boy safe ....
I think Dumbledore is guilty of his actions but perhaps not in intent ... what I mean to say is that as suggested - The truth is a beautiful and terrible thing ... thanks SM for the reminder of a great quote!
SnarkologyMajor
21-01-2006, 03:49
Well J.K.R.'s comment about anyone else being there was-"no comment":D I certainly think at least one other person was there, if she would have said no-then it would have shut down that path. It makes me think she just didn't want to inadvertantly elaborate on a yes answer. Even though I certainly get the feeling Dumbledore orchestrated much of what has happened-can't help but feel that it will ultimately destroy The Dark Lord.
We talked about Dumbledore and I also re-activated a thread on Dumbledore's plan - and perhaps his willingness to let things happen because he knows that by waiting it out the final result will be more worthy than the lifes lost in the process - I got this nice little quote from OoTP - seems to fit in ...
'... more for your peace of mind that my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed...'
'... What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in here and now you were alive, and well, and happy?
I never dreamed that I would have such a person on my hands'
Seeker615
27-01-2006, 11:42
I think Dumbledore has made a few mistakes along the way and he is the first to admit them. He even says because he is so clever his mistakes are much bigger than the average wizard.
I often thought he must have a few regrets on the choices he has made regarding Tom Riddle. I think he might even feel he could have done more to prevent Tom from becoming so powerful.
Do you think Tom would have been different if Dumbledore reigned him in at a younger age?
I think if Tom was left in the muggle world he would have ended up in an asylum or in prison - and pretty much confined.
I think Dumbledore made a huge mistake taking someone he could see was different - I mean even before he met Tom and was speaking to the woman in the orphange he could see what Tom was like, what he was capable of and was still under 11!
Tom was destine for the roll he made in life - he was robbed of love because of the manner in which he was concieved and only knew dislike, hate and a large liking for being alone and different to everyone else.
Dumbledore also could have been seen as guilty over Katie and Ron - once again was this him sticking to a plan and allowing sacrifice in the face of the bigger picture?
Did Dumbledore become too blind with his feelings for Harry that seeing him succed over Voldemort was worth more than anyone or anything?
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
21-02-2006, 06:04
I think that Dumbledore wasn't guilty at all, I mean he knew who Riddle was and who might have become, although he also knew he wasn't much into accepting thje rules "that were for common people", so he tried a little bit of psichology, he alway gave Tom the clues and let him be free to choose, however Tom didn't choose the correct way.
This wasn't Dumbledore's fault, as we all know Riddle was never obedient in the orphanage, so if he was set rules at Hogwarts he would also rebel himself as he did in the orphanage.
I think that the only Guilty is Merope's if she was alive maybe Tom would have another behaviour. So I think this should be "Was it Merope's fault?" rather than Dumbledore....
sorry.... although it's my opinion.
Hey opinions are all good and I will not say you are wrong ... because that is your opinion!
Mine on this - I felt that Riddle would have been a criminal muggle rather than a magical tyrant if left alone ... there is nothing to say he wouldn't or even would have developed more sense of his magical powers ... but by putting him in a place where those raw skills he already homed into terrorising people with could be formed and shaped into real, magical powers ... that is akin to lighting the fuse in my mind .... and he had a choice ...
Weasleyfanforever
21-02-2006, 14:35
Hey opinions are all good and I will not say you are wrong ... because that is your opinion!
Mine on this - I felt that Riddle would have been a criminal muggle rather than a magical tyrant if left alone ... there is nothing to say he wouldn't or even would have developed more sense of his magical powers ... but by putting him in a place where those raw skills he already homed into terrorising people with could be formed and shaped into real, magical powers ... that is akin to lighting the fuse in my mind .... and he had a choice ...
I would have to disagree that he wouldn't have developed his powers more. He knew that he was special, and he knew that he could use those powers to hurt people, as you pointed out, he displayed by age 11. If he already knew this, as he got older, he would have tried harder to use those powers more. I highly doubt that someone with Riddle's power and ability would have just said "Oh, I know I have wierd powers that can hurt people, and I enjoy that, but since I have no formal training, I'll just quit." He's not that kind of guy, I mean, it's been how many years, and he is still focused on the same things he was at that age, being better than people and holding power over them.
Tom was destine for the roll he made in life - he was robbed of love because of the manner in which he was concieved and only knew dislike, hate and a large liking for being alone and different to everyone else.
Dumbledore also could have been seen as guilty over Katie and Ron - once again was this him sticking to a plan and allowing sacrifice in the face of the bigger picture?
Did Dumbledore become too blind with his feelings for Harry that seeing him succed over Voldemort was worth more than anyone or anything?
In short, yes, the sacrifice of a few lives so that many can live should be worth more. I understand that they are children, but Dumbledore also understands that it is war. Maybe not all out, fighting on the front lines kind of war, but war nonetheless. He knows that only Harry can defeat Voldemort, so it should be obvious, that Dumbledore, being the epitome of good, would think this valued above all others. He may not like the fact that people have to die, but it's what happens, people have to give their lives in order to make a better world, and most of the time, you don't get to pick and choose who those people are.
DumbledoreLives
21-02-2006, 20:53
Studies show that the tendencies and personality we display by age 5 are a significant indicator of who we become as adults. The psychological profiles of serial killers and political tyrants greatly supports this. If left in the Muggle world, who's to say that Tom Riddle Jr would not have risen to the same status as say, Hitler. Their ultimate aims were similar.
I agree with WFF. There's no way TRjr would have stopped. Plus, in the Muggle world, if he continued what he was already doing - hurting other children, feeling "entitled" and superior, taking pleasure in other peoples fear, pain and sadness, it would have only escalated into bigger and more tragic events. DD said TRjr has a knack for causing chaos to his own benefit. Again, who's to say leaving him in the Muggle world would have been less tragic. Plus he would have unwitting risked the exposure of the Wizarding World, possibly on a grand scale. The Wizarding world would have had to stop him either way.
In defense of DD, at the time of TRjr's induction into the Wizarding world, he was a mere professor at Hogwarts, not as influential to the Ministry as the Headmaster (Dippett) would have been. BTW, who was the Minister for Magic at that time? Maybe they themselves were Dark Wizards and knew something about TRjr that no one else did.
I think DD already blames himself for the deaths of the Potters and the many other victims of TRjr. However, I think his knowledge and details of their deaths came after it happened. I think Snape, who had already turned spy for the OOtP was actually hiding at Godric's Hollow before Voldy arrived. I think he was going to attempt to warn the Potters, or try to get them out of there somehow as a way to repay his life debt to James (who had saved him from werewolf Lupin).;)
What you are talking about is a muggle with a sadistic mind and strange abilities versus a full trained and realised sadistic mind with homed and perfected abilities ... I think that there shows the difference ...
He is now capable of bringing down both races - muggles and wizards ... whereas left in the muggle world he would have only ran rampant for a while and then most likely locked up and sedated in a loony bin (asylum) ...
Wouldn't the risk be better that he never found out why he could do these strange things versus telling him exactly what they are and giving the training to make them stronger?
Call it nobility of battle - say there is no such thing as a victimless crime - Dumbledore looks to let people fall in favour of a plan he alone believes is the right plan ... doesn't sound a million miles from a dictatorship to me .... :rolleyes:
He removes away their ability to survive - after all in most cases he could step in but he seems mindset on his plan ...
I think it is clear he has a lot to feel guilty about and I am sure Riddle Jnr figures in there ...
Weasleyfanforever
22-02-2006, 14:20
What you are talking about is a muggle with a sadistic mind and strange abilities versus a full trained and realised sadistic mind with homed and perfected abilities ... I think that there shows the difference ...
He is now capable of bringing down both races - muggles and wizards ... whereas left in the muggle world he would have only ran rampant for a while and then most likely locked up and sedated in a loony bin (asylum) ...
Wouldn't the risk be better that he never found out why he could do these strange things versus telling him exactly what they are and giving the training to make them stronger?
Call it nobility of battle - say there is no such thing as a victimless crime - Dumbledore looks to let people fall in favour of a plan he alone believes is the right plan ... doesn't sound a million miles from a dictatorship to me .... :rolleyes:
He removes away their ability to survive - after all in most cases he could step in but he seems mindset on his plan ...
I think it is clear he has a lot to feel guilty about and I am sure Riddle Jnr figures in there ...
1. We saw that Harry could get himself out of the way when he felt threatened in the muggle world at the age of eleven, there's no saying that Tom wouldn't be able to do at least that by the time he was an adult.
2. One thing that JKR makes very clearly in the series is Choices. It was no one's choice how Tom Riddle turned out, other than Tom Riddle. Yes, Dumbledore made the choice to extend the helping, but it was Tom and Tom alone that made the choice as to how his life would turn out. Say Dumbledore didn't approach him about going to Hogwarts, who's to say that Karkaroff wouldn't have approached him?
3. If Dumbledore was the only one the believed in his plan, or his ideaology which I think is quite clear to everyone, which is Harry has to defeat Voldemort no matter the cost, there wouldn't have been an original Order of the Phoenix, much less a second version of it.
OK, lets burn through those shall we :p
Dumbledore has an order to help him bring down Voldemort and the DE's - It's like referring to Voldemort and DE's the same as Dumbledore and the Order - the DE's are around as a tool for Voldemort, to do the things he doesn't want to do ... I think exactly the same of Dumbledore and the Order ... he needs them to help him with the menial tasks ... the bigger purpose is maintained by him alone ...
Dumbledore seems motivated to attack Dark Lords - reasons to be fully ascertained - but the fact remains both parties have their armies ...
Dumbledore and the Order existed before the Prophecy ... and until OoTP only he knew the details of that ... these people are rallying around him because he is trying to eradicate evil, Dark Lords ... not because they buy into his undisclosed plan ... none of which really know the details of ...
What you are doing is assuming - if Riddle was left in the muggle world he would have still became as powerful ...
The choice for bringing Riddle didn't come from Riddle - it came from Dippet/Dumbledore/Hogwarts or some/all three ... the main guilt resides with Dumbledore because he had more information on Riddle than anyone else - he heard the stories from the orphanage, witnessed this strange attitude and mannerisms of this boy and still chose to bring him into the magical world ... There was no choice to Riddle until Dumbledore presented him with it ... till that point he was an orphan that considered himself different ....
Riddle did things when he was younger but had no idea what he was doing ... same as Harry ... what defines them both now is the introduction to the magic ... look at Harry, where would he have been if he wasn't introduced to Hogwarts and the magical world?
We know that the route of giving Riddle his heritage and magical rights lead to him becoming the evil overlord ...
What would have been the better calculated risk - leave him unaware and background less - or place him in a position he could learn all this magic and more, learn about wizards and wizarding life ... and also his parentage ...
That is guilt for choosing the wrong path ... and the choice was very much Dumbledore's and not Riddles until he was presented with it ;)
Weasleyfanforever
23-02-2006, 15:26
OK, lets burn through those shall we :p
Yes, lets ;)
Dumbledore has an order to help him bring down Voldemort and the DE's - It's like referring to Voldemort and DE's the same as Dumbledore and the Order - the DE's are around as a tool for Voldemort, to do the things he doesn't want to do ... I think exactly the same of Dumbledore and the Order ... he needs them to help him with the menial tasks ... the bigger purpose is maintained by him alone ...Dumbledore seems motivated to attack Dark Lords - reasons to be fully ascertained - but the fact remains both parties have their armies ...
Dumbledore and the Order existed before the Prophecy ... and until OoTP only he knew the details of that ... these people are rallying around him because he is trying to eradicate evil, Dark Lords ... not because they buy into his undisclosed plan ... none of which really know the details of ...
I would beg to differ the point you made about Dumbledore and the Order and Voldemort and the DE. Voldemort uses the DE as tools, because that is what he sees people as, tools. You could argue that Dumbledore sees Harry as a tool, but I think that he sees him as much more, considering the feelings and emotions he has shown for Harry. Dumbledore doesn't however, see everyone as a tool. Voldemort's DE returned to him out of fear, and to satisfy their own manacial needs. The Order returned to Dumbledore of their own will. They don't fear him, they respect him.
Your point about him attacking Dark Lords is unfounded, he has only taken on one as far as we know, from Canon evidence.
Again, I have to reiterate that I don't think that Dumbledore's plan is undisclosed. It is clearly obvious what he wants to do. He doesn't have to come out and say "I mean to groom Harry to be able to defeat Voldemort. He doesn't have to tell everyone the Prophecy, for it to be obvious to them what his plan is. Also, I think many of the characters, especially those in the Order are very smart, and although they want good to win, they wouldn't follow Dumbledore blindly. I think he has revealed things to them that we are not privy to yet, as we haven't been able to get any closer to an Order meeting than Harry has.
What you are doing is assuming - if Riddle was left in the muggle world he would have still became as powerful ...
The choice for bringing Riddle didn't come from Riddle - it came from Dippet/Dumbledore/Hogwarts or some/all three ... the main guilt resides with Dumbledore because he had more information on Riddle than anyone else - he heard the stories from the orphanage, witnessed this strange attitude and mannerisms of this boy and still chose to bring him into the magical world ... There was no choice to Riddle until Dumbledore presented him with it ... till that point he was an orphan that considered himself different ....
And what you are assuming is that because Dumbledore met him first, had he not gone to see Tom Riddle in the Orphanage, is that no one else would have. One thing I have to point out is that Dumbledore, smart as he may be, is not, nor ever has been a Seer. He could guess at what Riddle may become, and try and steer him towards or away from that goal, but he could not know for sure. Again, it goes back to choices. Dumbledore made the choice to introduce him into the Magical World before someone else did. Tom Riddle made the choices he did after that to become Lord Voldemort. It was his own choice to become what he did.
Riddle did things when he was younger but had no idea what he was doing ... same as Harry ... what defines them both now is the introduction to the magic ... look at Harry, where would he have been if he wasn't introduced to Hogwarts and the magical world?
We know that the route of giving Riddle his heritage and magical rights lead to him becoming the evil overlord ...
No, we don't know that giving him his right, which was knowing what he was and where he came from, was the cause of him becoming an Evil Overlord. Again, it comes back to choices, but apparently, the stress on that point is falling on deaf ears.
What would have been the better calculated risk - leave him unaware and background less - or place him in a position he could learn all this magic and more, learn about wizards and wizarding life ... and also his parentage ...
That is guilt for choosing the wrong path ... and the choice was very much Dumbledore's and not Riddles until he was presented with it.
Was it really about calculated risk? Maybe Dumbledore thought that he deserved to know who and what he was, risk or reward. No one has the right to say what the wrong choice is, because it is based on moral issues, and each person's are different. Apparently, Dumbledore was of the moral mindset that he deserved to know his background, just as every student that is brought to Hogwarts while he has been Headmaster does. And again, I have to point out, especially with the powers that Tom Riddle showed as such a young age, and how he used them against other people, do you really think that no one else was going to find him out? That people much worse than Dumbledore would be looking for him, at that age or as he got older? C'mon.
Also, you made a point above that Tom had strange mannerisms and acted oddly as a young child. Does that mean that everyone who acts odd as a child, or who does mailicious things, perhaps not knowing why or what the outcome could be shouldn't know about their magical ability, or be given the ability to reform? If that's so, one could strongly argue that the Weasley twins did things when they were young (turning Ron's teddy bear into a giant spider, almost forcing him to make an unbreakable Vow) that are ood, dangerous and that they might be kept out of Hogwarts so as not to create any more "Evil Overlords". ;)
DumbledoreLives
23-02-2006, 23:54
You both make very compelling arguments and I add my 2 knuts with aprehension ;) .
I believe DD "feels" guilty, and that is something that he puts on himself. If anyone were to openly blame him for allowing TRjr to operate freely while a student at Hogwarts, DD would be the first to agree. However, it's a 20-20 hindsight kind of thing. I maintain that the rise and fall and rise again of Voldy is not DD's fault.
DD gathered most of the evidence about the young TRjr, he didn't experience first hand, didn't see it first hand. TRjr operated covertly and duplicitously, letting only a handful of individuals into his inner circle - those easy to manipulate, those who would admire and revere him and I don't think even they knew any of his true intentions. Knowing DD had his suspicions, and knew what he had done to the other children at the orphanage, TRjr would have avoided DD as much as possible while in school. In DD's presence and the presence of other authority figures, TRjr always acted the model citizen and managed to divert attention from himself and cast blame upon others.
There's no way anyone, including DD, Headmaster Dippett and the minister for magic could have known that they had the future public enemy #1 on their hands when they invited him to Hogwarts and told him about the source of his strange and wonderous abilities. Yes it is mainly about the choices everyone made. But I also believe it was TRjr's destiny to be evil, as it is Harry's destiny to vanquish him.
Yes, lets ;)
:rolleyes: - fine, let's keep doing this in the interests of debate/discussion, it isnt about proving right or wrong ...
I would beg to differ the point you made about Dumbledore and the Order and Voldemort and the DE. Voldemort uses the DE as tools, because that is what he sees people as, tools. You could argue that Dumbledore sees Harry as a tool, but I think that he sees him as much more, considering the feelings and emotions he has shown for Harry. Dumbledore doesn't however, see everyone as a tool. Voldemort's DE returned to him out of fear, and to satisfy their own manacial needs. The Order returned to Dumbledore of their own will. They don't fear him, they respect him.
Your point about him attacking Dark Lords is unfounded, he has only taken on one as far as we know, from Canon evidence.
Again, I have to reiterate that I don't think that Dumbledore's plan is undisclosed. It is clearly obvious what he wants to do. He doesn't have to come out and say "I mean to groom Harry to be able to defeat Voldemort. He doesn't have to tell everyone the Prophecy, for it to be obvious to them what his plan is. Also, I think many of the characters, especially those in the Order are very smart, and although they want good to win, they wouldn't follow Dumbledore blindly. I think he has revealed things to them that we are not privy to yet, as we haven't been able to get any closer to an Order meeting than Harry has.
'... more for your peace of mind that my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed...'
'... What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in here and now you were alive, and well, and happy?
I never dreamed that I would have such a person on my hands'
The main difference is that Voldemort looks at his people as tools and couldnt care less - Dumbledore uses his people as tools and has a heart .. but as those quotes show, he doesnt care that much about others as long as his plan succeeds ... and you know what, what he knows and his plan might mean the occasional deaths of people around him is an ends to a bigger means ...
My unfounded fact was actually fixed with a 'seems', not 'is' - i was suggesting spec and not fact .. yet he faced down Grindlewald and is now trying to erradicate Voldemort - a certain amount of speculation and assumptions can be made.
Dumbledore's plan is still Dumbledore's plan - we have information of the prophecy etc - yet Dumbledore dismisses the importance of a prophecy in HBP - I think his plan is supplemental to this .. once again I can only assume and speculate off the information we have.
And what you are assuming is that because Dumbledore met him first, had he not gone to see Tom Riddle in the Orphanage, is that no one else would have. One thing I have to point out is that Dumbledore, smart as he may be, is not, nor ever has been a Seer. He could guess at what Riddle may become, and try and steer him towards or away from that goal, but he could not know for sure. Again, it goes back to choices. Dumbledore made the choice to introduce him into the Magical World before someone else did. Tom Riddle made the choices he did after that to become Lord Voldemort. It was his own choice to become what he did.
Yep - your right, Dumbledore couldnt have known fully what would happen .. but he certainly had a good idea from the comments of the staff, what Tom was observed doing and acting, hearing the boy speaking to him .. and by his own admission knowing there was something not right about the boy.
The point I was making is the one you agree to - Dumbledore made the initial choice - from that point forward it was all Tom Riddle - but putting the person in the position he was able to take these strange things he could do, put a name to them, train and perfect in them and then finally unleash them against his fellow people all came because of one choice, Dumbledore's choice to introduce him to the magical world.
No, we don't know that giving him his right, which was knowing what he was and where he came from, was the cause of him becoming an Evil Overlord. Again, it comes back to choices, but apparently, the stress on that point is falling on deaf ears.
Nope - not on deaf ears - I observe and respect the choice, I am just suggesting the intial choice came from Dumbledore to place him in a position where he could take his strange abilities and make them into strong magic, thus unleashing him on the magical world.
Dumbledore has a choice before Riddle did - Riddle was still an orphan and a little sadistic and would have carried on being without Dumbledore's intervention.
Was it really about calculated risk? Maybe Dumbledore thought that he deserved to know who and what he was, risk or reward. No one has the right to say what the wrong choice is, because it is based on moral issues, and each person's are different. Apparently, Dumbledore was of the moral mindset that he deserved to know his background, just as every student that is brought to Hogwarts while he has been Headmaster does. And again, I have to point out, especially with the powers that Tom Riddle showed as such a young age, and how he used them against other people, do you really think that no one else was going to find him out? That people much worse than Dumbledore would be looking for him, at that age or as he got older? C'mon.
Also, you made a point above that Tom had strange mannerisms and acted oddly as a young child. Does that mean that everyone who acts odd as a child, or who does mailicious things, perhaps not knowing why or what the outcome could be shouldn't know about their magical ability, or be given the ability to reform? If that's so, one could strongly argue that the Weasley twins did things when they were young (turning Ron's teddy bear into a giant spider, almost forcing him to make an unbreakable Vow) that are ood, dangerous and that they might be kept out of Hogwarts so as not to create any more "Evil Overlords". ;)
No objections whatsoever with your first point - still comes back to the same thing - Dumbledore made a call - otherwise known as making a choice - based on his own biases and morals .. we know he liked to give everyone a chance. I'm not suggesting this was wrong or right - if you look at the thread title - it talks of Dumbledore's guilt - maybe his own guilt at his choices in relation to Riddle or how we percieved Dumbledore's actions.
My last point, one you seem to have taken out of context - the mannerisms etc I was talking about was him relishing the fact he could hurt others with this strange force, he was able to cause harm and even took peverse pleasure out of it. He was cold, calculated and somewhat an evil little sod going way back - Dumbledore was aware of these facts before even meeting Riddle.
Overall I have no objections to anything you are saying - further more I dont think I am right and you are wrong - or visa versa - this is about discussing the possiblities .. I'm not sure you or I could be proved right or wrong because the facts dont speak for themselves as we only see the results of one set of actions ... 2 sets of choices by 2 people ...
My thread was clear - I was just suggesting that Dumbledore should feel a certain amount of guilt over this situation and I am sure he does as well - he may have not been able to stop Riddle becoming what he did - but he has a choice and thus a hand in what actually happened ...
Thanks for the lively debate Wheezy :)
SnarkologyMajor
24-02-2006, 01:21
Wow-this is a lively debate:D You both make great points for either side, just wanted to add that even though Dumbledore's handling of Tom's introduction into the wizard world could go either direction-what I question is Dumbledore's handling of Tom while at Hogwarts. The fact that Dumbledore could have cared for Tom and tried to show him a different perspective of human nature-yet didn't try to care or nurture him, but basically spied and monitered him instead-makes me suspicious. This isn't to say that DiE so much, but suggests there is alot more going on w/the big picture than we are aware of-Dumbledore may not be a seer, but there has been clear evidence that he is aware of future timeframes. Now this is a gut feeling, but the whole scene at the orphanage seemed very odd. Dumbledore's reaction to Tom's behavior and power was off to me-it was as though he was confirming something that he already knew and wasn't nearly as surprised by his sadistic and borderline psychotic personality as anyone else would have been.
LOL - trust me, I have 100% respect for Wheezy and her opinions - one thing I can guarentee is a lively debate if she doesnt agree ... and this is the place for it!
SM - what you identifed there is also relevant ... having taken the choice to introduce this concerning individual to Hogwarts, he employed a method of cloak and dagger approach rather than mentor/guide and role model ... why is that?
He knew that Riddle was a real concern but rather than address it and try and change things - he left him.
This could also point towards his guilt in what Riddle became, because if anyone had a chance to make a positive influence, it would have been Dumbledore ...
Weasleyfanforever
24-02-2006, 09:47
I would first and foremost like to say that I have great respect for Alz' s ideas and opinions. He knows me well t say I enjoy a good debate, but I don't mean to insult anyone. Also, I have to agree, it's not about who is right or wrong, because we have no clue, but to have an intelligent (and yes, sometimes quite lively) debate :D
:The main difference is that Voldemort looks at his people as tools and couldnt care less - Dumbledore uses his people as tools and has a heart .. but as those quotes show, he doesnt care that much about others as long as his plan succeeds ... and you know what, what he knows and his plan might mean the occasional deaths of people around him is an ends to a bigger means ...
Of course that's what it means. During war time, occasional deaths are always seen as the means to a bigger end. Should one person be able to live, thus sealing the fate of hundreds, perhaps thousands of others? This would be the same logic I would use for Dumbledore's death. He had to die, because Harry has to finish on his own. Should the future of the wizarding world be held back by few? No, and that's why the occasional deaths are necessary.
Dumbledore's plan is still Dumbledore's plan - we have information of the prophecy etc - yet Dumbledore dismisses the importance of a prophecy in HBP - I think his plan is supplemental to this .. once again I can only assume and speculate off the information we have. About dismissing the Prophecy, Dumbledore was only reiterating what JKR has said, in real life of course :p
JKR: Yes, definitely, because I think there's a line there between the moment in “Chamber of Secrets” when Dumbledore says so famously, ‘It's our choices that define us, not our abilities,’ straight through to Dumbledore sitting in his office, saying to Harry, “the prophecy is significant only because you and Voldemort choose to make it so.” If you both chose to walk away, you could both live! That's the bottom line. If both of them decided, “We're not playing,” and walked away… but, it’s not going to happen, because as far as Voldemort’s concerned, Harry’s a threat. They must meet each other.
ES: I remember thinking when I read “Order of the Phoenix,” what would happen if Harry and Voldemort just decided to —
JKR: Shake hands, and walk away? We'll agree to disagree!
ES: What if he never heard the prophecy?
JKR: And that's it, isn't it. As I said, that's what I posted on my site -
ES: I'm glad you put that up.
JKR: It's the “Macbeth” idea. I absolutely adore “Macbeth.” It is possibly my favorite Shakespeare play. And that's the question isn't it? If Macbeth hadn't met the witches, would he have killed Duncan? Would any of it have happened? Is it fated or did he make it happen? I believe he made it happen.
Yep - your right, Dumbledore couldnt have known fully what would happen .. but he certainly had a good idea from the comments of the staff, what Tom was observed doing and acting, hearing the boy speaking to him .. and by his own admission knowing there was something not right about the boy.
The point I was making is the one you agree to - Dumbledore made the initial choice - from that point forward it was all Tom Riddle - but putting the person in the position he was able to take these strange things he could do, put a name to them, train and perfect in them and then finally unleash them against his fellow people all came because of one choice, Dumbledore's choice to introduce him to the magical world.
He knew how the boy acted then. Dumbledore was always of the belief that people could change, if they wanted to, and he wanted Tom to have that chance. I don't disagree that Dumbledore must've known he would be, or already was very powerful (for his age) to go for him himself, but I am also of the belief that he went under the pretense that people can change, and that, as Tom was at such a young age, he might be able to help.
Nope - not on deaf ears - I observe and respect the choice, I am just suggesting the intial choice came from Dumbledore to place him in a position where he could take his strange abilities and make them into strong magic, thus unleashing him on the magical world.
Dumbledore has a choice before Riddle did - Riddle was still an orphan and a little sadistic and would have carried on being without Dumbledore's intervention.
I'm not sure if it was a choice. We know that muggle-borns, or those that have no idea about the magical world, who's names are down for Hogwarts, are visited by someone. In Harry's case, it was Hagrid, I can't think of who it was for Hermione. I want to say McGonagall, but I may be way off base. Anyways, what I am saying is that if his name was already down to go to Hogwarts, did Dumbledore (who was not the Headmaster at the time) have the power to bar his admittance to Hogwarts, with no discrepancies in the magical world? And, if what Riddle did while he was at the Orphanage was that bad, why wasn't he taken to St. Mungo's? Surely they (The MoM) should have known he was doing magic, on and in front of muggles... Ok, that's off topic, sorry :p
One thing I have just realised, and as I said above; Dumbledore was not the Headmaster at the time. He was the Transfiguration teacher, at least until Tom Riddle graduated, I believe. So, as in the sense of Him (as Headmaster) sending Hagrid to notify Harry, maybe Dippet told him to go get Tom Riddle. In that case, it would place blame on Dippet, not Dumbledore, if there was blame to be doled out. My brain hurts... :p
Overall I have no objections to anything you are saying - further more I dont think I am right and you are wrong - or visa versa - this is about discussing the possiblities .. I'm not sure you or I could be proved right or wrong because the facts dont speak for themselves as we only see the results of one set of actions ... 2 sets of choices by 2 people ...
I agree, I don't think I am right, because I don't know, for all we know, we could both be wrong, but it is about the discussion of possibility, and good, lively debate :D
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