View Full Version : Elaborate Training?
I cant remember where I read it in here - but someone said in another thread they thought that the cave was a training exercise.
At the time I found it interesting but didn't think too much further on it.
But then - I listened and read that chapter a few times now - and I am starting to see it!
Think about it before replying - approach with an open mind!
It seems like Dumbledore is under just one big instructional - he seems to spend all the time telling Harry - did you see that Harry - what do you think Harry ... almost like he is doing like he said from the start - training Harry!
He seemed to cover so many aspects of magic in that scene - he even let Harry have a dabble with the Accio ... like he was schooling him!
So the theory - Dumbledore was in fact training Harry on the skills he will need to go Horcrux hunting. He showed him skills - he even tried to show Harry that no matter what - who is hurting etc that Harry must continue - not show weakness.
I urge you all to re-read the chapter before replying - and as you read it - keep in the back of your mind 'if this was contrived/staged' - see if you can find any small ways you can agree ...
I already had an open mind for this - it is clear he wants Harry to take notice of everything, to think, to be strong and not doubt himself.
He chose to take Harry with him because he believed Harry was ready. Or he believed they had run out of time.
While what happened in the cave was real, Dumbledore may have been expecting it. I don't remember him once being surprised by any of it.
Perhaps he'd been there before, and knew exactly what he was going to teach Harry when they got in there.
It did seem to me as if Dumbeldore knew what Harry should be taking notice of.
Hey Alz,
It was me, I'm almost positive; I brought it up in the Slughorn thread. But I can't take credit for the idea -- I have a friend on another board who originated it.
Let me add two teensy things to what you've said: Dumbledore seems to know what to look for, and stage magic is introduced in this book (with "Muggle magic" and the twins, and also with Slughorn's illusions).
But don't anybody interpret my contribution to this thread as my thinking that the training exercise theory is exclusively Slughorn/Dumbledore territory -- I think the idea has merit regardless.
gumshoe
Yuh, I agree! I think DD knew about the UV, and had instructed Snape to do it instead of Malfoy. SO in DD's well organised mind :), he was preparing Harry. Giving him the nessesary information- past and present, to guide him in the future!
Vold. E. Mort
02-11-2005, 05:59
I think most of the entire journey has been scripted by Dumbledore actually.. Case in point, PoA.. When Dumbledore, Fudge and the executioner go to terminate Buckbeak, DD knows to distract them by pointing out trees and strawberries that no one cares about. He knows he's going to tell Herminone and Harry to come back and save Buckbeak, so he intentionally gives them a window of oppurtunity. Voldemort once called him omniscient, and I totally agree. To think Snape's assassination was unplanned or unprepared for is just simply naive.
I agree that the locket was an arranged event as a final lesson to Harry before Dumbledore's "death".. He knew the real Horcrux was gone, and he knew it would be a "safe" adventure to take Harry on because of that. My question though, is why did the green-slime-o-death have to be drank? Why not just poor out each glass? Once it left the basin, was the green stuff aware of what happened to it? I say no, and just as someone said, it was to show Harry that despite what happens, the mission must be completed. Dumbledore didn't need to swallow a single drop of that stuff, so I daresay his entire performance once he became intoxicated was an act, including his performance for Rosie.
Or, and this is a different theory, I think the green stuff was in some way preparing Dumbledore to ward off the AK he knew was coming from Snape later that night. Like a bulletproof vest potion, if you will. Yeah, some doubter is gonna chime in and say "there is no such thing!" but this is Dumbledore and Snape, 2 of the most advanced wizards to ever live and certainly the most highly skilled alchemist the series has introduced. To doubt the ability of those 2 to cook up some sort of protection is naive.
Wow - better received than I thought :D
OK, I am glad you can all see somewhat how contrived the situation seemed. It just seemed to flow - like it was rehearsed or practiced for - like everything was in place and then Harry was taken as a spectator to the event. I suppose you could call it role-playing - but the thing is, to Harry is was all real.
He reacted and did things based on is being a real situation.
I suppose one part that seemed to spring out the most was Dumbledore laid face down after drinking the potion - Harry throws water onto his face - the next thing we see is Dumbledore stood tall producing a powerful fire charm.
We are talking like what - maybe 30 seconds to a minute passed?
Dumbledore was out for the count after the 6th cup of liquid - He drank 12 in total and right at the end he collapsed - yet within a minute he re-gained composure, strength and power. If water on face does that - why didn't he drink more and cure himself!
baylor2009
04-11-2005, 06:19
Hey folks,
I'm gumshoe's friend. I suggested the training theory to her because of many of the reasons already stated. Reading the Cave scene, it is hard to believe that DD hadn't been there before. He is far too sure of himself, for one thing, he knows where the Cave is exactly. The only way he could know how to get to this cave, and to know that this was THE cave, was if he had been there before. There have to be dozens of caves along the coast, and even if this were the only one, I don't think it was visible from above. DD had to have gone down there earlier. He wouldn't have been convinced that this was the cave unless he had certain knowledge that at least somebody, and likely LV had used magic on it. The only way to test that is to do it himself. Remember what Snape says in OotP, distance matters in magic. So I think DD had to have gone at least as far as the Cave door before.
Once to the entrance, why wouldn't he have gone in? He walked straight to the boat with Harry, and more importantly, he knew that they would have to cross the lake to get to an island, before the island was visible. DD had to have known all about this cave beforehand. What's more, I think he found it on the night that Harry got the memory from Slughorn. Remember, NHN says that DD came back looking pleased.
I think the reason that he didn't pour out the potion onto the floor was because he needed to hurry back to Hogwarts to "die." Once Harry had told him that Malfoy had finished whatever he was doing, DD knew that tonight was it. So he had to rush things a little more than he would like. He had to talk Harry through things that he probably would have liked Harry to discover on his own.
On a related note, Gummy and I think that it wasn't DD at all in the cave. It was Slughorn transfigured to look like DD. DD gave Sluggy the quick rundown on the cave, and told him to show Harry how to get stuff done. That's why even though "DD" walks with a purpose in the cave, he seems a little absentminded. Slughorn is trying to go through an unfamiliar situation and fool a pretty bright kid all at once.
*takes hat off to baylor2009* :D
So it is you I have to thank - well thanks, because once gumshoe said it - it really stuck in my mind to the point I had to throw it out there for others to think on - I hope you dont mind - maximum credit to you!
To give some weight to the why did he even drink it - it seems to me he did it for effect.
Vol - you are indeed very right - he never even tried to just dump the drink - he concluded it had to be drunk without considering all options. Then of course we saw what happened then.
I also think Dumbledore pretending to be ill and dying helped with Harry's impending total loss of him - he was already resigned to the fact that, as mentioned by a few people, he would have to give up his life to save Snape and Malfoy - one he truely trusted and a pupil of his. He was old and had a well organised mind that saw death as the next great adventure - so dying held no fear to him. I think he used the potion to try and gradually get Harry used to the idea he wasnt going to survive - Harry has a period of time to accept that impending loss rather than on top of tower and Dumbledore being ripped out of his life like so many others Harry loved.
This training episode was the last chance Dumbledore had to show Harry - teach him some things that he knew Harry needed to know while going on his horcrux hunts - on his own ... Dumbledore knew that.
As I said at the start - he offered Harry lessons and delivered them right at the end.
Thanks for chiming in, baylor. Really happy to see you post here.
Okay, besides drinking that awful stuff, why did his own goblet empty whenever Harry filled it? I got the impression he needed Harry to turn his back for some reason.
The way his hands travel seems as if they know what they're looking for. He has a knife in his pocket, as if prepared for the blood offering.
One thing to add here, Alz: Harry forcing Dumbledore to drink the stuff is a test of his loyalty -- will he follow through with his orders as he promised to do. Whatever you choose to make of that...
gumshoe
halliemei
04-11-2005, 16:57
Really good point there gumshoe. I have a feeling (and unfortunately a theory on the end of this) that the test of loyalty was a lesson Harry needed to learn too. The ultimate test of loyalty is doing what you don't want to for the benefit of another or mankind.
One thing to add here, Alz: Harry forcing Dumbledore to drink the stuff is a test of his loyalty -- will he follow through with his orders as he promised to do. Whatever you choose to make of that...
gumshoe
I think that is a well observed point ... I see two possibilities to that ends ...
Voldemort has someone Harry loves and will place them between Harry and himself - the other is of course what we all speculate - Harry is a horcrux and he will realise he needs to sacrifice himself in order to stop Voldemort.
I think Harry was right to finish things with Ginny and he should also try and put some distance between himself and Hermione/Ron - because the Dark Lord is going to look at them as great ways to compromise Harry.
I suppose it is one thing to help someone else kill themselves at their request - but what if Harry is faced with a someone he cares about between himself and Voldemort?
I dont want to get off-topic on that really - it just makes me wonder if Dumbledore did enough to make Harry realise sacrifice is sometimes needed in a bigger picture?
I suppose it would be fun to look at things Dumbledore did show Harry during the cave exercise and see how they might be applied later in the books .. I am sure each thing Dumbledore did had a reason.
baylor2009
08-11-2005, 15:03
I am struck by how different the Horcrux defenses are. 2 are hidden by magic, one is hidden in plain sight (diary). Some have instantly lethal protections, others slowly debilitating protections, and other virtually none at all. I think this partially explains why DD didn't instruct Harry at a deeply technical level in the Cave (that and he was in a hurry to get back and "die"). He wants Harry to get the feel for the hunt and to realize the stakes. I'm not sure that "loyalty" is what is being tested here, but rather committment. DD knows that Harry is "DD's man through and through" the question is more about is Harry committed more to DD's mission or to DD personally. Harry is shown that he must be totally committed to defeating LV, not committed to DD. Man cannot serve two masters.
Baylor, that's exactly the distinction I was looking for, thanks -- testing his level of commitment.
I do think that Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore has been tested, too, and perhaps even by Dumbledore; however, the cave sequence tests commitment, a variant of loyalty. (Gosh, I hate thinking about the Harrycrux business, but it's an unavoidable possibility, isn't it.)
Baylor listed several points that seem to indicate a training mission: Dumbledore's knowledge of the location of the cave, his leaps of deduction, knowing about the island and the boat without (supposedly) having been there, his conclusion that the potion must be consumed. More?
An interesting angle to this topic is that it was rushed because of the events about to play out at the castle -- Harry told Dumbledore moments before they left that Draco had succeeded in something, and perhaps it was even more important to take the trip to the cave, without it being as complete as Dumbledore might have wanted.
gumshoe
In HBP we saw Harry testing Dumbledore's patience and commitment while trying to source the Slughorn memory - I always get the feeling that Dumbledore showed another side of himself to Harry during that period - one of 'there is an urgency to this - dont let other things cloud your concentration' kind of thing.
Harry was obsessed with trying to see what Draco was up to - to the point he negated the task Dumbledore had set him. I can see your point - that Dumbledore needed to try and impress on Harry that sometimes you can't be distracted - and as you said Dumbledore knew he wasnt going to be around and wanted to make sure Harry was doing this for Harry - and not for him or even Voldemort.
I think that is what a lot of the talk about the prophecy and how he could walk away blah blah was about - it was showing Harry he needs to do this for him and not for anyone else - otherwise he would be like Voldemort.
I noticed something interesting yesterday whilst looking at the Black Family Tree on the HP Lexicon Site. Not sure if anyone has already pointed out what I am about to, but this is a great thread to discuss it on after reading everyone's excellent posts. Here goes (during a major caffeine boost).....
The Black family Tree has a date of birth and death of Regulus Black which is;
1961 - 1979
If you work out the two extremes of the possible ages Regulus could be with these dates in mind you get the following ages;
If Regulus was born on Jan 1st 1961 and 'died' on 31st Dec 1979 he would have been 1 day off turning 19.
But, if Regulus was born on 31st Dec 1961 and 'died' on 1st Jan 1979 he would have been 17 yrs and 1 day old.
So, if he was born in the latter months of 1961, it would follow that there was an extremely good chance of him being an UNDERAGE wizard when he became a D/E (we know this can happen i.e Draco Malfoy)........
What does this mean in terms of this discussion?
If as I believe R.A.B. is Regulus, he could also have been underage when he went to the cave to retrieve the Locket - ergo he, like Harry, went with a qualified wizard and both of them could use the boat to reach the island and the Horcrux (as his powers would not register).
I have no idea how he could have got the info about the Horcrux, i.e did he know it was Slytherins Locket beforehand so he could take a fake one to replace it with or did he visit the cave on more than one occasion etc etc. Who drank the potion/was it there? Did he know about the prophecy? Was he a much more able wizard than JKR has yet to reveal?
But imagine if you will that your are Regulus, your are an underage D/E, discover the secret of this particular Horcrux, become fearful of LV and want out, who is the one wizard you would turn to to help? Probably the one that LV feared above all others (and may have already had an incling about horcrux/es).....Dumbledore!!
So, could DD have already visited the cave, with Regulus and helped retrieve the real Horcrux, which would lend alot to this discussion and the facts that everyone else has already made, that the cave scene in HBP was a training mission for Harry, DD was running out of time/ knew about the UV Snape made and was willing to sacrifice himself for for the lives of Draco and Snape, and pass on the baton to Harry?
Is Regulus really dead or has he been searching for horcruxes/ helping DD whilst hiding his true identity. Is he in fact Stubby Boardman (looks like Sirius) who retired from public life 15 years previously in OOtP i.e the around the time when Regulus 'died' ?!?
Whether or not he is Stubby, one quote from DD in HBP may suggest he is not dead;
DD in the chapter 'The Lightening Struck Tower' tells Draco;
'Come over to the right side Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine'..................
I have a feeling we may see more of him in Book 7.
There are other options for wizards who may have helped him in the above scenario. Aberforth, Snape - had he turned spy against LV yet? Another interesting point from the Family Tree is the fact that Orion, Regulus' (and Sirius') father died in 1979 aswell! Could he have turned against the dark arts to help his own son? Is that why Grimmauld place was so well protected before it was used as headquarters for the OOtP i.e was it used to hide Regulus/Orion whilst their identities were changed (Regulus' mothers memory could have been modified & Sirius was out of the house at that time - he left when he was 16, so wasn't there - and probably only a select few wizards may have known the truth about the situation)? Did they leave the wizarding world without destroying the real horcrux or is the soul peice still in tact (locket in OOtP).
Did DD visit the cave with Regulus, or could another wizard have passed him the info he needed before he travelled there with Harry?
Thoughts everyone please .......
(need to lie down now :confused:)
cagedcactus
05-09-2006, 04:33
I like the analysis about RAB. But idea of DD already visited that cave seems a bit reaching. You see story can become very brittle if that happened.
Die hard fans like us can understand, and enjoy twists like that. But remember, there are ton of kids and adults out there, who take these stories with an awe, and inspiration. For those people that cave visit of DD with Harry can become pretty much a waste, if that was just a show for DD.
I know almost for sure, that RAB had to have help when he went to that cave. What that help was? we are all debating that in another thread.
For the discussion here, I am sure that the cave visit was a huge clue for Harry. It showed how much commitment, determination, tenacity it will take to find and destroy these horcruxes.
DD basically showed Harry why some people have to become adults, even before they cross that 17. For people like Ron, Fred, and George 17 can be just a day when they are legalized to drink fire-whiskey (no offense to those three. They are my favorite too). But for Harry, 17 means time to get to work. No rest, no fun, no more friendly games. The hunt is serious and very dangerous.
Ok, so if DD didn't visit the cave with an underage Regulus, any thoughts on other wizards who may have accompanied him with/without DD in the know?
p.s whats the name of the thread discussing possible help for R.A.B in the cave, so I can post there instead of this one?
cagedcactus
05-09-2006, 17:30
Ok, so if DD didn't visit the cave with an underage Regulus, any thoughts on other wizards who may have accompanied him with/without DD in the know?
p.s whats the name of the thread discussing possible help for R.A.B in the cave, so I can post there instead of this one?
the thread is "Slytherin's Locket" and another thread is "Is RAB important?"
i like the idea that RAB is Regulus, and even more, i like the idea that he was hidden.
here's another wild spec - After the two of them went to the cave, Orion took polyjuice and became Regulus, and was killed by Voldemort, so that Regulus could go in to hiding.
We are told by Sirius that Regulus was a DE - as such would Voldemort really have cause to have another underage wizard being a DE?
That would be my biggest disagreement with Pip's post there ...
Draco was bought in to serve multiple purposes for Voldemort - most of which was to take care of Harry's protector - Dumbledore.
I just struggle to work out why Voldemort would have an underaged Regulus as a DE ... although the timelines offered are compelling!
I mean for RAB to know about the horcruxes - he stumbled across something from Voldemort - I mean it's not like he could have stumbled across the horcrux and then linked it back to Voldemort - he knew, read the note he left again ...
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