View Full Version : Trophy Kills?
Don't know if I really need to make this a new thread, but I think this post will fit best here for now...
I have been wondering why Voldemort has Wormtail and others perform some, if not most, of the lesser killings for him.
We only really know of a handful of ACTUAL Voldemort murders, and some of these are just very probable assumptions. There may be others that were rumored to have been personally murdered by Voldemort, but we don't know for certain.
MadEye Moody tells Harry about some old Order members that were personally killed by Voldemort, but that may not be true. Everyone thought Sirius killed Peter Pettigrew, and that turned out to be wrong. I bet Voldemort has selected his murders very carefully.
Here is my list...
1 & 2- Grandma and Grandpa Riddle - Horcruxes Diary and Ring
3 - Dear Old Dad... Tom Riddle - Horcrux Locket
4 - Hepzibah Smith - Horcrux Cup
5 - James Potter - Horcrux Something Voldemort took with him to Godric's Hollow ?
6 - Lily Potter - Harry Scar Horcrux
... then the attempt on Baby Harry
7 - Frank Bryce - Nagini
Others, like Bertha Jorkins and Cedric were killed by Voldemort's wand, but not by Voldemort himself.
So help me out here with my speculation...
If every time Voldemort commits a murder, his soul rips in two, and he begins to encase the torn bit of soul into Horcruxes...
1st time - soul is 1/2... 2nd time - the half soul left is split again into 1/4ths...
3rd time - the 1/4th left is split again into 1/8ths... 4th time - split into 1/16ths...
5th time - split into 1/32nds, 6th time - split into 1/64ths,
and the 7th time - the remaining soul is split yet again into 1/128ths.
Each time, Voldemort is left with a considerably smaller portion of soul.
That is perhaps why he looks less and less human as he sheds off part of his soul.
It may not work exactly like this, but my theory is that Voldemort didn't want to kill Lily that night because he knew that his soul was about used up, and he really wanted to use Harry's murder as one of his final Horcruxes... he didn't want to waste a killing... why else spare her ? Or else he intended to use Harry's murder to make Lily the Horcrux. But his plan failed and he had to kill Lily anyway. Then Harry was accidentally made into a Horcrux with the attempt on his life, and what is even more interesting is that his scar Horcrux was created from the murder of Lily.
Later, Voldemort made a Horcrux out of Nagini, making a total of SEVEN Horcruxes... not Six !!!
Hiya - I split the post into a seperate thread - hope you dont mind ...
My list of possible deaths to seal the Horcruxes include a member from each of these families ...
McKinnons, Bones, & Prewett
Why you may ask?
Did you notice the on-going vendetta between Voldemort and these families - I think another one of each family bought it in HBP ..
We do have thread on them (here) (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=188)- but I think the reason they are mentioned so much and seem to have such a cursed fate is because Voldemort used them as trophy kills ...
This new thread is fine... thanks Blaise.
I just didn't know if I could start a new thread as a NOOb.
I agree about the other trophy kills you mentioned, but
I still wonder how Voldemort can continue to murder and
split his soul more and more. If he has created six or seven
Horcruxes, he should be left with only about 1/128th of a soul,
and it is most likely shredded into pieces.
We did touch upon this in another thread - but I do subscribe to your theory on this - each time he rips his soul - it is a half of what he had left ... what this also means is his early killings - and early Horcruxes are the biggest and most important parts of his soul - is it any wonder that two of the earliest have already been destroyed?
I do however subscribe to Dumbledore that Riddle made 7 - maybe adding another one post ressurection with Bryce's death.
The seven part soul would have appealed to him - it is the magical number - so I think he continued down that path with that target.
To keep ripping his sould would leave Harry and impossible target and also Voldemort with the smallest, tiniest piece of sould left that wouldnt be enough to sustain him.
halliemei
04-11-2005, 16:52
While I agree in theory with the idea that each horcrux would therefore have less of VM's soul in it, I only worry about one thing. JKR says she's not good with maths. I wonder if she's thought about it as we have or if she has an assumption that it's not "in half" each time over, which would be exponential (right?).
That said, I think Vestral's theory is brilliant. It is the ONLY thing I've heard as a theory about WHY he would tell Lily to step aside that fits VM's personality/character (or lack thereof).
First, there's this interesting Egyptian mythology thing -- the Eye of Horus ("Horace," anyone?) -- I read about it and comprehended very little, but enough to explain that it is related to eternal life and it was used for mathematical calculations -- the eye (everyone is probably familiar with the symbol) is divided again and again, by half. If there's interest or isn't another thread on this (sorry, I haven't checked this time), I'll look it up again to better explain it to you all (and myself!). At the time, it seemed totally relevant but I couldn't quite wrap my brain around it.
I've read another theory by another friend on another forum (no new "recruits" necessary this time, Alz!) -- he has an interesting idea that there are no measurable divisions, just innumerable possible tears, and that each murder makes a tear, but to make a Horcrux, you have to tear it OFF. (And this is probably consistent with JK's mathematical capability that halliemei brings up.) (And it's probably consistent with Alz's thinking, since he mentions trophy kills for trophy Horcruxes, and if that was the case, then a couple of the murders wouldn't count -- like James.)
If my friend's theory about innumerable tears is correct, then what indeed would be the point of having others do the dirty work? Then again, if only a finite number of tears is possible, how in the world (as asked in the Inferi thread) did so many Inferi end up in the lake? Maybe the finite number of tears idea is pertinent only in terms of Horcrux-making? If so, murderous Riddle would absolutely have to be ever-so-careful to relegate some of the "killins" he'd want done (and, yes, it would make for a great explanation for him not wanting to kill Lily).
I always thought he made the first three at the same time, and I'm interested in hearing more about Vestral's list at the beginning, but I wonder if they're two separate topics.
gumshoe
Umm - see I have read numerous references to numbers running in the HP saga - most notable the repeats of 12 ... we do have a thread on this and I know there is more to add from HBP (amounts of drinks Dumbledore took from the thing in the cave) - I wonder if perhaps that could forshadow a 12 part split of Voldemort's soul?
I dont want to digress too far away from the topic of the thread - I feel Vestral was trying to identify the probable killings that were used to make Horcruxes - and I think that is a worthy line of investigation not least because we know they are all important kills - but it will also higlight possible clues and locations as to the missing objects as well as what they are.
Oh, bother. Did I skew the topic again? Sorry if I did -- I thought it was about WHY he'd need to have trophy kills, not what they were (really very interesting, by the way). I really do want to cover the list itself too and held back b/c I was trying to stay on track.
Just to be safe, I'll add a bit about the list.
I got the impression that he made three before he left Hogwarts. Two we know of, the diary and the ring, and one that we don't, that he's misplaced and eager to reclaim (hence his tenure at Borgin & Burkes, which aside from giving him opportunity to find a new treasure, also allowed him free access to Hogwarts via the Vanishing Cabinets).
In light of that, and perhaps not as accurately as Vestral, I might recharacterize the list, at least partially, assuming that he made the ring, diary and "x" before leaving Hogwarts (perhaps "x" is that tiara); and the cup with Smith's murder; and perhaps the locket with Dorcas Meadowes (he killed her personally -- p. 174 Scholastic, "Woes of Mrs. Weasley" for those of us w/ Bloomsbury).
That still leaves an opening for an object he intended to make into a Horcrux at Godric's Hollow, and I'm not ready to expound upon Harry or Nagini, since I haven't prepared my thoughts on that. Also what I don't like about my train of thought is that the locket should seemingly have a truly significant death attached to it, especially his father's (as Vestral says); but I still can't shake the notion that he made three before he graduated.
gumshoe
Don't worry too much gumshoe - it might have been my interpretation of the thread idea that is wrong as well :o
I kinda got the feeling from the books that he saved his Horcruxes for special kills - well Dumbledore seemed to conclude that - and from what we have seen that seems to be face value about right. That kind of explains why he would have trophy kills .. Well in my head!
Nope, no worries. :) AOK.
Vestral's point is interesting, though: What if he did in fact have to restrict the number of murders he personally committed? (And if so, I am forcibly reminded of the Eye of Horus. I'll have to drag out the book -- I'll post here or elsewhere, let me know.)
So what about these points: three before leaving Hogwarts; Dorcas Meadowes; innumerable tears vs. finite number.
gumshoe
It is an interesting point - I think worthy of busting out on it's own maybe?
I think I will take a stab at creating something to canvass thoughts on that one.
I suppose - unless I am misunderstood on this one - if we can narrow to the possible trophy kills that Voldemort sealed his Horcruxes with here - then I will try and fork some other points raised here into their own topics?
Going back one step when I talked about the McKinnons, Bones, & Prewett - I wonder if they link into another family or even person at the time that could have been used as a Horcrux?
Voldemorts vendetta with these families goes way beyond anything we have seen througout the series - and remember he killed all the Riddles and lead the end of the Gaunts - I wonder if this was a possible link as well?
OK... I've been trying to research all of the books to confirm actual Voldemort kills,
and even though there is some insinuation that Voldemort killed lots of other people, and some assume that ALL of the Inferi in the water in the cave were killed by Voldemort...
I STILL only come up with, at the most, EIGHT killings.
I welcome anyone to argue the point with me, or to give me a page reference to any killing by Voldemort himself that I miss in my list. I'm trying to flesh out a much more involved theory.
Even though some of these are not 100% proven, they are at least widely accepted, but here, I list my "confirmed" Voldemort killings again.
1. Grandma Riddle
2. Grandpa Riddle
3. Daddy Tom Riddle
4. Hepzibah Smith
5. Dorcas Meadowes
6. James Potter
7. Lily Potter
8. Frank Bryce
I contend that Bertha Jorkins and Cedric Diggory were killed by Voldemort's wand, but he did not do the killing.
Please, if you have someone to add, provide page reference and context.
Sounds like a worthy challenge you have laid out there - knowing the smart cookies we have here you may soon have an answer ... for me that looks like an astute list of confirmed kills ...
I think there is always a lot of rumours - like Amelia Bones .. but I think concentrating on confirmed kills could be a good path to walk down.
I suppose we should also only look at the ones post sealing his first Horcrux right - because if the theory is each time you kill afterwards you are going to prep for a new Horcrux - then killings before the Riddles isnt of concern right?
I hope my challenge didn't sound too confrontational...
I am really just looking for other opinions and help that is backed up with
solid supporting evidence.
I don't think Tom Riddle killed anyone before the Riddle family.
And even though I include Dorcas Meadowes in my list of confirmed kills,
I have my doubts that he personally killed her... it just doesn't fit the mold.
But I also think that Voldemort may not be all that he is made out to be...
You know how things get blown out of proportion ?
Sure he is one evil bloke, but I'll bet he's only killed these eight people personally.
But the "legend" of Voldemort (if you can call it a legend ?) makes it look like he's murdered hundreds.
When in truth... he doesn't do the dirty work himself... he has worked out how many murders he can commit in order to
only split his soul so much... to create 7 Horcruxes.
I think he is protecting his already diminished soul from further damage, because he knows what happens to the soul when one commits murder.
This is the reason that I think he offered to let Lily step aside... not because he is noble, but because again... he was looking out for himself and his soul.
Ohh no - not confrontational - exciting!
I think you made some good point there, if I may look at a few of them.
Voldemort represents the DE's and the movement he created - as such the killings tend to be attributed to him rather than his servents - thus gives the impressions he killed a lot more.
In fact, I think the reason he had his DE's was to prevent him having to get his hands dirty - or even to facilitate the killings but not rip his soul even more.
While he may have ordered them - maybe even set up the killings - I think the kills he made were not as big as the reputation he attained.
He was a loaner but needed DE's for something - well killing would be a good tool - lessen his exposure and chances of being personally attacked.
And your last point is a killer point - what I mean to say is that in the context of what he was hoping to achieve that night - sealing his final horcrux with Harry's death - asking Lily to step aside - would be a perfect solution to the mystery, especially in conjuction with this theory/topic - nice one!
There's also the problem making a distinction between divisions and actual separations -- perhaps the possibility still remains that he can murder more times than 7, but he can't make more than 6 Horcruxes, even though I find the idea of a finite number compelling. That is probably for the other thread, however.
Vestral, if you think it's possible that Voldemort didn't kill Meadowes himself, how are we to interpret Moody's understanding that he did? (And I don't mean THAT to be confrontational at all, just pursuing more explanation.)
And I agree with Alz -- the last point is killer -- if he does ask her to stand aside to protect himself and his soul, but he kills her before going for Harry, perhaps the reason why everything backfired (aside from the ancient magic) is that his tank was on "E." Is that what you're going for here?
That's right, gumshoe...
As far as Moody telling Harry about Dorcas Meadowes, Moody could simply be repeating what he's heard. For instance...Harry overhears the Weasleys and I believe, later, McGonagall, discussing Sirius Black and how he was after Harry, and that he had murdered all those muggles and poor little Peter Pettigrew.
Well, they all got it wrong.
I simply think that Voldemort got credit for Dorcas Meadowes, but I don't see how her murder fits in with the other Trophy Kills, and it could be very likely that he handed someone his wand and said, "Be a sport and AK her for me there, Wormtail..."
Okay, hearsay/misattribution: Good enough for me -- it won't hold up the discussion, then.
You have to remember the impact of hearsay and speculation - many people form these opinions on such and such being killed and the natural instinct was to blame Voldemort - even though it could have easily been a DE or the likes.
I suppose if we saw a continuation of priori incantem we would see exactly what he was responsible for - but then it isn't fool proof as we saw in GoF - it just shows the killings and not the killer.
Reputation and speculation I think leads everyone to believe Voldemort was a prolific killer, and well maybe he was, but for the sake of this discussion - which I like a great deal - I would say that his reputation was built and not earned - well not directly ...
I think he was responsible for a great deal of killings - but the blood is on others hands and not his - debatable as he prolly ordered them but still ...
This is complete speculation on my behalf, but Alz, someone here is on to something :p
Voldemort may believe that killing is beneath him. Why put himself through seeing the fear and desperation on the faces of victims when he can order a DE to do it for him. He fears death, he wouldn't want to see it, surely?
James and Lily, sure, but they thrice defied him and birthed the boy who could destroy him. Frank, because he could have given them away. And Bertha, because she could have also given them away. (forgive me, but i cannot recall if Voldemort killed Bertha).
For Voldemort to face his own fear and see someone die would mean they were a very important person...better to Voldemort if they were dead.
On the other hand, Voldemort may have only killed those he would feel a great pleasure to kill. Someone almost worthy of dying by his hand. It would be important for Voldemort to show these people who came up against him that he was more powerful than them, that he could kill them and he would live on forever.
It is understandable then that he would save his killings to make horcruxes, but what now? He's made them, so does that mean he will stop killing personally? Or will he kill anyone that gets in his way now?
SnarkologyMajor
29-12-2005, 01:46
What great questions kashlie:D I think we need to look at the bigger picture when it comes to Voldemort's ultimate goals-although mind-boggling- it seems like his plans are far bigger then being immortal by creating horcruxes. :eek:
This is complete speculation on my behalf, but Alz, someone here is on to something :p
Voldemort may believe that killing is beneath him. Why put himself through seeing the fear and desperation on the faces of victims when he can order a DE to do it for him. He fears death, he wouldn't want to see it, surely?
James and Lily, sure, but they thrice defied him and birthed the boy who could destroy him. Frank, because he could have given them away. And Bertha, because she could have also given them away. (forgive me, but i cannot recall if Voldemort killed Bertha).
For Voldemort to face his own fear and see someone die would mean they were a very important person...better to Voldemort if they were dead.
On the other hand, Voldemort may have only killed those he would feel a great pleasure to kill. Someone almost worthy of dying by his hand. It would be important for Voldemort to show these people who came up against him that he was more powerful than them, that he could kill them and he would live on forever.
It is understandable then that he would save his killings to make horcruxes, but what now? He's made them, so does that mean he will stop killing personally? Or will he kill anyone that gets in his way now?
I think you are bang on there hun ...
I think the confirmed kills we know he committed all represented some serious angst to him ... His Dad and the thrice defying members of an order who set out to kill him!
I think it is important that we have a Voldemort that is talked about as being a mass killer but in fact he is a lot more calculated and thoughtful - I also like the idea of limiting the killings he can perform because once again it makes it that much more interesting that just him being an all out, mass murderer!
For him to have to calculate, plan, get the evil motivation and follow it up with maybe thoughts on where to store that ripped sould piece seems more poetic that someone who just killed people with no real considerations - seems almosy lazy - while he enjoyed the reputation I feel he would prefer the knowledge that in fact the kills he commited at the end were all trophy kills!
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