View Full Version : 7 is the Magic number?
OK, I read this and then a thought occured.
Voldemort wanted and even liked the idea of a 7 part soul - Dumbledore concluded as much etc - and in Slughorn's unaltered memory we see Riddle say the exact same thing ...
Then a thought occured - he achieves the 7 part split at the Potter house the Fateful night.
7 is a magical number and no-one had ever done what Voldemort had done before - could the reason the AK reacted the way it did was because the magical elements of the 7 conspired against him rather than in favour as he had hoped?
Could the real mystery of the backfired AK be simply because of a magical number?
Just a small thought - wondered your thoughts on it!
pheonix_child
04-11-2005, 11:55
Wow, you're right!:) Interesting...:eek:
Sorry should add that when I said the magical elements of 7 conspired - what I meant was that whatever power comes from 7 reacted against him.
While he split it 6 times he was OK - 7 is the magical number and maybe this is also a limiting factor in him not being able to rip it apart even more.
Whatever is so magically important about 7 just reacted badly to the use of it's magical properties ...
Urgh - not sure I made any better sense there :o
OK, just to understand this properly, before I put my 2 cents in, just want to make sure that I know what you are suggesting...
The reason the AK backfired on Voldemort is because when he tried to split his soul the 7th time, the magical force of the number 7 reacted somehow and failed him?
As you can probably tell, I have no idea if that is what you are impying here!!!
Voldemort has to retain one part - so you could say when he split it the 6th time at the Potters whatever is magical about 7 reacted badly.
It could just be the soul isnt meant to be that ripped apart and something happened - afterall what makes a person magical or squib or muggle?
There is a force in a wizard that allows them to do what they do - squibs and muggles dont have it usually (there is some muggle wizards I know!) but what I am suggesting is that before you blow off the idea of a force reacting because it is a number - think about what makes a person magical or not ...
I believe he did all he could to attain the seven piece soul - but what should have been the best divison based on 7 being the magical number - I feel Voldemort even thought that having 7 pieces would do something - like add another layer of protection or something - instead it backfired on him - literally.
Otherwise - why 7 - why was he so intent on asking about a 7 piece split?
Interesting thought. Just to add a bit - JKR has also mentioned that one of the reasons Ginny Weasley is a very potent witch is that she is the seventh child of a seventh child, of a seventh . . . etc. And that seven is a very powerful number. Perhaps this connection could come up as well - she might have some powers or ability that comes along with that that could help in the quest/fight.
It could simply be that 7 is considered magical - bit like superstition and the likes - but as Boingy pointed out - JKR did note Ginny and the run of sevens there ...
I don't pretend to be able to tell you what happens to someone blessed with a 7 - but Riddle did show interest in it - so he must have had something in mind.
DumbledoreLives
21-11-2005, 00:36
"7" IS THE MAGIC NUMBER. It is used across countless cultures and religions throughout written history. I think Voldy would choose to make 7 horcruces because of all its powerful, magical and historical implications.
Here are just some of the interesting ways 7 appears to influence cosmic law
( i got this from http://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/philo_lawof7.htm):
7 virtues: faith, hope, charity, fortitude, justice, prudence and temperence.
7 deadly sins: pride, envy, wrath, sloth, gluttony, greed and lust
7 wonders of the ancient world
7 seas
7 Chakras
7 parts of the body
7 bodily functions
7 cavities of the heart
I plan to make a point, so bear with me. There are many more "7" references, but what caught my eye was Ouspensky's 7 systems of symbolism: numbers, geometetrical figures, letters, words, magic, alchemy, astrology. THESE SYSTEMS CULMINATE IN TAROT. (For more tarot references, see "It's in the Cards" thread.) I know next to zip about tarot, and maybe you all know this already, but the following symbolism is just eerie to me. There are so many similarities between the aspects of the Tarot and the HP saga that I feel like as many times as i've read each book, that i've done so with only a child's comprehension. Anyway, the first card, the Magician card, illustrates a man with an infinity symbol above his head. Around his waist is a snake swallowing his own tail. (Like Ooruborus, Alz.) He holds a wand in his right hand and is pointing to earth with the other. This symbolizes that he is part of two worlds. On the table, there are four objects: a pentacle, a chalice (or cup), a sword and a wand. IT JUST SCREAMS VOLDY! (and perhaps a couple of horcruces.) The High Priestess card is like the feminine counterpart of the magician (like Yin/Yang). She imparts knowledge and 'illuminates the path'. She sits on a throne, in front of a VEIL, sometimes referred to as the veil of truth, that leads to secret knowledge. There are illustrations of pomegranates on the veil, referring to a myth about Persephone who went to the land of the dead, ate the pomegranate and was the only one able to pass back and forth between worlds. WHOA!!! Does this kinda describe JKR and our veil mystery? JKR seems to like tarot card references - visually and contextually. Maybe the ultimate spoiler would be to read up on the tarot.
Okay, now for my point. 7 is indeed the magical number. But based on how JKR has historically used 7, it all hints at being a bad omen. There are 7 books in the series, representing the 7 years it takes to graduate from Hogwarts. At the end of HBP, it doesn't look like Harry's going to finish his magical education. Voldy wants a total of 7 horcruces. Assuming he was making the 7th on that fateful night at Godrid's Hollow, having 7 horcruces, or 7 of anything for that matter, is the ultimate bad idea. There are 7 Weasley children. Harry loves the 7th. So much for love. There are kind of 7 parental figures in Harry's life: Lily and James, DD, Sirius, Hagrid and Molly and Arthur. Four were already killed... Bets anyone? Maybe if we just count the Weasley MEN, all the Ron, or Percy or Arthur 'death' speculations become easier to believe. Doesn't look good for any grouping of 7, or 7th anything in the HP world..:( but i'm hoping '7' ends up being 'lucky' in the end.
Amazing post there!
I think what I was trying to say here is that 7 is a really powerful, magical number.
As such - if you attain it via natural circumstance - the power if revealed - if you conspire against it magical power or even force it - then you get an opposit reaction.
It is suppose to be good - 7 is magical - but I wonder what would happen if you try and force cirumstance than something else happens?
DumbledoreLives
23-11-2005, 03:14
In support of the preceding post, Voldy's attempt to achieve 7 horcruces (symbolic of some sort of cosmic perfection), reminded of dice. One of the goals is to roll a 7 on the first roll. At any other point during your turn, rolling a 7 is bad, as we speculate is proven when Voldy attempted to make his last horcrux (thus 7th piece). Just what is it with this number.;)
It's one of those mysteries isnt it ...
Like what makes a wizard a wizard - what makes a wizard bear a squib - what makes a muggle magical ... all freaky effects of magic ..
I attribute the same to 7 - it's a lucky omen - bit like felix - it just seems to make people feel there is something magical about it - but if you defy the forces - force the odd's - stack the deck - you cheat it ... and I just wonder if it has a side effect when achieved in a dark manner ... of course I could be full of it :o
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
21-02-2006, 05:49
I think that the seven has nothing to do with what happened to Voldemort.... there was something else beyond the seven. As we were told by Dumbledore it might have been something Harry possesed inside him or his mother's sacrifice.
However now you mention it the Problem to the seven acting against Voldemort may be Harry, as he was born in the Seventh month of the year, so Harry already had that power, so, as Voldemort was trying to get it by atacking someone who had it, instead of killing Harry and Spliting his soul once more he almost provoked his self destruction.
There is something magical with 7 - that is a fact ... or superstition ...
If there really is anything in the power of 7 - is it possible the magic, magical, mysteries power can work to advantage as well as disadvantage ...?
I'm just entertaining the idea that the magical forces of 7 can combine for and against ..
BTW - excellent point about Harry and the 7th month ... perhaps another tenuous link ... 7th act of supreme evil sealed with something magically pure born as the 7th month dies ... :D
Blanche A. McFusty
21-02-2006, 22:52
I teach literature and writing. Among the archetype symbols we study is the number 7. If you study all of the major religions of our world, or read the post by DumbledoreLives, you will find the number 7 to be prevalent regardless of the culture it represents. Seven is used by authors to symbolize completeness. Whether the wholeness or completion is regarded as evil or good depends on the nature of the individual(s) in question. Something was thwarted the night that Harry's parents died. Nevertheless, given the JKR's strict adherence to the proper use of her 7s, completion happened as well. Sevens don't fail.
Something was thwarted the night that Harry's parents died. Nevertheless, given the JKR's strict adherence to the proper use of her 7s, completion happened as well. Sevens don't fail.
See that is what I am talking about :p
I think that the power of 7 might have been misunderstood by Voldemort - perhaps 7 should never be used in such evil ways ... perhaps 7 is magical for the better of magic ...
It is so hard to explain what I was trying to say - a number cant be magical in itself - it's the reaction it causes when it comes into effect during an event or circumstance ... it is a force maybe ... it really is something that is magical in the right occurrence ...
It does remind me a lot of superstition and just the general feeling that 7 is lucky ... like a three leaf clover versus crossing a black cat ... Heck not even sure what I meant now I think about it .... :o
Blanche A. McFusty
22-02-2006, 22:58
Well, I was thinking, maybe there was another set of sevens at work that we aren't aware of or haven't pieced together yet. We know that Voldemort was working on his horcruxes. Maybe the Order was working on their own 7 quest and Harry was the culmination of that.
DumbledoreLives wrote, "There are kind of 7 parental figures in Harry's life: Lily and James, DD, Sirius, Hagrid and Molly and Arthur. Four were already killed... Bets anyone?"
So did these 7, or another combination, (I just noticed the omission of Lupin), have their own 7 quest?
Interesting perspective there BAM ... not sure you can or would mind expanding that ... even if it is somewhat speculative?
I think that would fit in with my disturbed thoughts ... another force of 7 used for the good of magical combating the destructive and evil way it was being applied by Voldemort ... I like it :p
Blanche A. McFusty
23-02-2006, 21:53
Yes, this is total conjecture. Your posts on the subject birthed the idea. I will try to expand. I'm not sure I've convinced myself.
This is what set me off. Alz wrote, "a number cant be magical in itself - it's the reaction it causes when it comes into effect during an event or circumstance ..." That reminded me instantly of my two favorite Dumbledore quotes. In CoS DD tells "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
And, at the culmination of Goblet of Fire, Dumbledore assuages Harry's grief and guilt over Cedric's death by saying, "Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort."
Harry's concern in Chamber of Secrets is that he is accruing evidence that he is manifesting attributes that indicate that he is more appropriately a Slytherin. Dumbledores assures him that Gryffindor is the better house for him because he actually chose it. The sorting hat has also told us that Gryffindor and Slytherin were once famous friends. They were bound tightly, and that bond seems to reside in Harry. In later books we are reminded again and again that Harry has a bond with Voldemort. He has knowledge of the Dark Lord's emotions and thoughts. Dumbledore, again speculates that Voldemort left part of himself inside of Harry when he left that scar on his forehead so many years ago. This created a bond.
Well, if that is so, why isn't Harry in Slytherin? Why isn't he aspiring to become a DE? It is because of his choices. Now, I figure that if someone has the ability to resist the inclinations of the Dark Lord then there is obviously a stronger force counteracting it for it to be so successful.
There is a lot of talk about love being important. DD reiterates this for us quite a bit. While I agree sentimentally that love is incredibly powerful, is that enough? The love of Harry's mother? Well, what if that magnanimous love extended beyond Harry and applied to the wizarding world? What if the Order conspired to act out of love for the good of mankind. Now that is a prodigious ideal. Now...
This is a big what if. There is the scar. Lightening. An electrical charge. Lightening occurs when two opposing forces converge in the same locality and ignites a reaction. We have learned about Voldemort's desire to garner his horcruxes to complete his set of 7. What created that scar? What was the opposing force? Was it the love of Lily for Harry, her son? I'm a mother and I know what that means. I'm not belittling it in the least. To counteract the Dark Lord, though... I mean, if he succeeds, all of the wizarding world and the muggle world will spiral. What if the Order agreed to create a force to oppose Voldemort and Lily knew that it meant Harry was the target. Can you imagine the magnitude of such a sacrifice? That would be a suitable opposing force, and it would explain why the thematic emphasis on choice is so prevalent in the books.
I'm almost afraid to proofread what I just wrote.
Wow, you touched upon so many things we have speculated in there it is really exciting to see them combined in such a way it is gains a whole new and different plausibility!
Your last couple of lines set my mind racing ... could it be that the Order conspired to create the very events we are now seeing?
Lily didn't have to die ... but the order planned her to die ... because with her willing to sacrifice her life she could leave a child that would grow up with the tools to do the real job ... kill Voldemort ...
That would have been a real, hard and powerful moment - her laying down her life, leaving the baby to grow up on his own ...
Gosh it even fits in with the ever cropping up 'she needn't have died' - it has been said over and over ... gosh what is she really did consent to this from the outset ... what if the plan Dumbledore talks of is the plan of the order ... and the Order all know that to keep Harry true he must never know that it was all staged ...
Voldemort didn't care about killing her - he was only after the boy - yet she knew she had to die in order to set Harry on the path ..
Urgh I am so sorry if I misread what you are saying but when I read it - it just seemed to come to me ... heck the order might have even known about horcruxes (from RAB or second person) and knew that Voldemort was set to create the 7th - I wonder if Lily's planned death played into another great wild spec that Harry was unwittingly sealed by the contrived events - and one cannot destroy their own horcruxes ... thus creating and then in the same event trying to destroy your own horcrux means you get your own back ...
I am so sorry if I just killed what you were trying to say there ... it just struck something in my head :o
Blanche A. McFusty
24-02-2006, 19:40
Well, yes. I think that's close to what I was thinking. I am not understanding your last paragraph, though. Would you explain that again?
Bringing it all around to the sevens. I was thinking this morning that if there was a plan then there has to be conspirators in the Order to formulate. So, who was involved in the events the night Harry lost his parents?
1. Dumbledore arranged for Harry to live with the Dursleys.
2. Hagrid delivered him.
3. James would have been involved.
4. Lily, of course.
5. Sirius, he was a secret keeper. It explains the motorcycle.
6. Harry, of course. Or would it be someone else I'm not remembering?
7. :-) Snape.
Was the plan for Snape to tell Voldemort - on purpose? Is that why Dumbledore so readily forgave him? Is that why DD could not tell anyone _why_ he had faith in Snape?
SnarkologyMajor
25-02-2006, 03:56
Well I am of the belief that the first part of the prophecy was told to Voldemort with a plan in mind-and that the horcrux RAB stole was part of that plan. It just makes sense when you look at the timing of all of the events that took place, starting with the prophecy and ending w/Voldemort's downfall. I realize this is controversial, but still I'm convinced this is part of the mystery surrounding what happened the night of Godric's Hollow and why Harry's scar ended up a horcrux.
I think most are aware that 6 is Satan's number, but would like to add that the number 7 is God's perfect number. If Voldemort was truly trying to create a 7th horcrux w/Harry's death, yet the 7th resides in Harry while Voldemort still only has 6-it completely fits into Christian allegory that I believe she's writing. Lily sacrificing herself out of pure love also fits with the greatest power JKR keeps alluding to. Another commonality of 7 that I threw into a different thread fits here too. Merope is the name of the 7th Pleiade(who hides her face in shame), while Ginny is the seventh child in the Weasley's family-and both young ladies had in their possession a horcrux-one belonged to Salazar and one belonged to Voldemort, which I believe are the same Dark Lord;)
ThirdProphecy
26-02-2006, 03:35
hello all,
Maybe it's just off topic or another (too) wild speculation, but given the prophecy that could have fitted either for Neville or Harry I saw this:
3 times the Longbottoms defied Voldemort.
3 times the Potters defied Voldemort.
The seventh time Voldemort attacked one of the two "Prophecy"-families, the AK curse backfired...
Another hint or just too far fetched? Let me know what you think!
cu around
TP :)
hello all,
Maybe it's just off topic or another (too) wild speculation, but given the prophecy that could have fitted either for Neville or Harry I saw this:
3 times the Longbottoms defied Voldemort.
3 times the Potters defied Voldemort.
The seventh time Voldemort attacked one of the two "Prophecy"-families, the AK curse backfired...
Another hint or just too far fetched? Let me know what you think!
cu around
TP :)
Inspired!
Yeah - now that is worthy of thought isn't it - the 7th attack to seal a horcrux and also fits in with the wording of the prophecy.
And SM - once again shivers with that as well - it kind of eludes back to what I was saying about 7 not being able to be used in a negative/evil way - whatever make the 7 the most magical must exercise something ... otherwise it is just superstition right?
Blanche A. McFusty
28-02-2006, 23:03
Interesting! Two sets of holy threes followed by a final to make 7 that fails. Interesting, indeed. Thrice defied, though. Does that mean that Voldemort was not able to create his horcruxes? That would seem to be the case if he was defied. Or was Voldemort defied regarding other endeavors?
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
02-03-2006, 07:42
See that is what I am talking about :p
I think that the power of 7 might have been misunderstood by Voldemort - perhaps 7 should never be used in such evil ways ... perhaps 7 is magical for the better of magic ...
It is so hard to explain what I was trying to say - a number cant be magical in itself - it's the reaction it causes when it comes into effect during an event or circumstance ... it is a force maybe ... it really is something that is magical in the right occurrence ...
It does remind me a lot of superstition and just the general feeling that 7 is lucky ... like a three leaf clover versus crossing a black cat ... Heck not even sure what I meant now I think about it .... :o
Yeah I also believe that.
In fact there's another thing that can be related to the seven( it's my favourite number)
An it's that It is said that the greek god Apolo was born the seventh day of Bysios, acording to the ancient greece calendar.
As most shall know he was the god related to seers (Delfos temple were built to honour him).
It is said that Cresus (I cant spell it properly). ASked there What would happen if he attacked the persian.
He was said that a great empire would be destroied.
He atacked and, as predicted a great empire was ruined, so by this we can connect this to Voldemort.
He thought he could destroy the only one with the power to vanquish him, but instead, it worked against him.
So I belive that as Voldemort was trying to defi too much the state of things, powerfull things, he was almost vanquished, but than again it's just speculation.
That kind of fits in - do you think JKR had that in mind when she wrote this?
Are we all happy that 7 is just the magical number the same as 13 is unlucky?
I mean superstition does count for a great deal in most people's life and I wonder if at the end of this 7 is just a fav number of JKR?
I am of the opinion still that whatever made JKR say it was the most magical number was said because it does hold powers - as you have all shown there are so many repeats of 7 and in conjunction with other parallels.
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
07-03-2006, 13:53
Plus we must remember that The Philosopher's stone....which was one of the struggles between Voldemort was Located in 713 Gringots... well reversing it we Have Harry's birthdate, and now I think about what you say Alz 31 is the opposite of 13.
That would explain lots of things... remember the Potter's were attacked the 31st october...:D
SnarkologyMajor
08-03-2006, 03:26
The symbolism of that is breathtaking isn't it? Wasn't Sirius's vault located right next to 713-have to look it up, makes you wonder what Harry will discover there. By the way, isn't everyone else a little irked that Harry hasn't gone back to his own vault to have a closer look around-Jeez Harry:rolleyes:
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
08-03-2006, 10:23
Yeah it's really breathtaking... and also imagining the way JKRowling plotted all this to make us think about it.
I think there is a quirk in US versus UK Philosophers Stone versus Sourcerers Stone - and it pertains to the numbers of the vaults ... I cant remember but the US numbers are different I believe?
Interesting - I knew that the vault was Harry Birthday but interesting the 13 v 31st thing! Well spotted!
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
15-03-2006, 14:31
Thanks.... anyway there's a thing I dont understand and it's that in one of the books she says his parents were murdred the very night of his 1s birthday, but then we are told tha they were murdred on the halloween that's confusing....
Blanche A. McFusty
15-03-2006, 21:16
I apologize straight out for not looking it up myself, but when do we learn about each of these incidents? That's fascinating! Which book contradicts?
The attack of the Potters took place on Halloween, that much is certain and Harry was born in July - so he was just over a year and certainly wasnt attacked the night of his first birthday.
I would be interested to see where it says otherwise because I missed it each time I have read the books :o
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