View Full Version : Why trophy kills?
Another fork from the Trophy Kills threads and raised by gumshoe - why did Voldemort have to create trophy killings to seal his Horcruxes?
IMHO - this was based just like his objects- he saw merit in using such objects to hold his souls pieces - like they were worthy - the same applies to the trophy killings he performed in order to create Horcruxes ...
I think he went for revenge to start with then risk to his power - people that defied him - made him look bad - were well renowned for being worthy opponents of Voldemort.
I think he picked them based on threat and defiance - he used their deaths to who the wizarding world no-one defies his power.
Alz, I'm honored. :)
While I think what you're saying is the likeliest explanation -- special murders for special Horcruxes, I want to take a moment to entertain this delicious idea around the Eye of Horus. If nothing else, it's fun.
In the other thread, something Vestral said had me responding to this angle of the topic of trophy kills, and the possibility that Voldemort had to keep the number of murders finite. However, the last head-count in Vestral's murder list appears to be 8, so we might be able to rule the whole idea of a finite number out right there...unless he's made a new one to replace the diary.
Nonetheless, Vestral speculated that perhaps the soul-bits were made by successively dividing his soul in two. I was forcibly reminded of a book my husband showed me right after we read HBP -- It's called Ancient Egyptian Magic, by Bob Brier. I think I was looking for some Slughorn connection (shamelessly obsessed with that character), because I wanted to research the Eye of Horus ("Horace?"...)
From the text:
"By far, the most numerous of all amulets found in excavations in the Eye-of-Horus. This was the highly stylized eye of the falcon god Horus. According to myth, Horus fought his evil uncle Seth to avenge the death of his father Osiris. In the battle, Horus' eye was torn to pieces, but by magic, Toth, god of writing, assembled the pieces. Each element of the Eye-of-Horus represented a different fraction...[the text then shows the fractions with the pictures depicting each one, 1/2, 1/4 etc] The total of the fractions is 63/64, the missing 1/64 supposedly supplied magically by Toth. The amulet was called "udjat," or "sound eye." Because of its association with the regeneration of Horus' eye, it was worn to ensure good health. The sign of the modern pharmacist, Rx, is a corruption of three portions of the ancient Egyptian Eye-of-Horus: 1/4, 1/32, and 1/64."
It's hard to explain a picture in a text, so here's a link to a blurb on Wikipedia to take a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus
The amulet, a stylized eye, has different segments each representing a fraction, from 1/2 to 1/64.
Interestingly enough, if Voldemort really does halve his soul each time, there's a mathematical discrepancy: (Wikipedia again) "If one were to do the math they would discover that the fractions, when added together, only equal 63/64, and thus, not one as would be expected. This has been attributed to the ancient Egyptians belief in not being able to attain perfection but also the idea that the 1/64 that remains could be a form of magic that one would require to complete themselves." The discrepancy is in adding the following fractions: 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64.
What got me going about this was the connection between the Eye of Horus, everlasting life, and mathematical division. Wikipedia says, "The ancients believed this symbol of indestructibility would assist in rebirth, due to their beliefs about the soul." Perhaps Riddle's travels took him to the pyramids in Egypt, to seek out their magic and secrets -- perhaps that's the whole reason JK writes in the Weasley family vacation and Bill's work taking him there.
As a bit of a side-note, Brier's book describes a man by the name of Thomas Pettigrew (!), a physician who became interested in Egyptology in the early 1800's through an Italian circus-strongman who traveled to Egypt and brought back antiquities for collectors. Pettigrew became a mummy-unwrapping sensation, unwrapping mummies owned by wealthy gentlemen for private audiences. (Brier says, "Despite the theatrics, Pettigrew was a careful observer, and his demonstrations yielded much information on the embalming process.") In an account of one unwrapping, a foot is described as "black and shrivelled," reminiscent of Dumbledore's hand, perhaps?... Anyway, according to Brier: "Perhaps the high point of Pettigrew's career came not in unwrapping a mummy, but in creating one. When Alexander, the tenth Duke of Hamilton, died, he left instructions that his body be mummified in the Egyptian manner...Pettigrew embalmed the duke's body and also served as high-priest at his funeral." I of course am reminded of Wormtail's role in Voldemort's rebirth.
That's a big enough load, friends. Do with it what you will.
gumshoe
WOW...Wonderful theory and info on the Eye of Horus. Notice that the missing 1/64th works if you continue out the math for say 1/128ths...
Adding up the fractions you get 127/128ths. And suppose you just use 1/2 and 1/4... that adds up to 3/4ths. Applied to Horcruxes (derived from Horus ? Horace ?) perhaps the bit that is "missing" is the piece that remains in you.
Does this make sense ?
On a similar note...
I still stand by my 8 Voldemort murders, or Trophy Kills, but deep down
I think there have really only been 7.
Dorcas Meadowes ? Using the Trophy Kill Theory... why her ?
At first glance another one that seems out of place is Frank Bryce.
But if you think about it, he is indeed tied to the old Riddle Family
and the Riddle House, and if he was used to create the Nagini Horcrux,
that would sort of make sense.
A few things to think about...
Does Voldemort know that Harry/Harry's Scar is a Horcrux ?
Did Voldemort really kill Dorcas Meadowes ?
If so, was there a motive, or just a random killing ?
It doesn't look like he kills at random.
He killed Frank Bryce because I think he intended to use
his murder to create the Nagini Horcrux, but he didn't need to kill
Cedric... he was just "a spare". So why have Wormtail kill him ?
He was obviously capable himself... I think it would have been a
"wasted" murder, and a needless splitting of his soul.
So again I question Dorcas Meadowes because her murder would serve no purpose whereas the other murders fit into the Trophy Kill profile.
I know I just posted, but I found some really great stuff and just had to share !!!
Feel free to move this wherever you need to Blaise. It could go in many topics.
I may even have to adjust my 7 Horcrux theory a bit, but anyhow...
Gumshoe got me thinking (dangerous pasttime) about Horace/Horus and
Horcruxes... Horus+Crux. A crux is the critical or most important point. Put that together with this info on the Eye of Horus and you've got your Horcrux.
The Eye of Horus represents 6 parts ( sound familiar ?)... which correspond to the six senses... touch, taste, hearing, thought, sight, and smell. These senses correspond to fractional representations of the Egyptian unit of measure, the heqat.
Thus you have...
1/64 heqat Touch
1/32 heqat Taste
1/16 heqat Hearing
1/8 heqat Thought
1/4 heqat Sight
1/2 heqat Smell
Also, in the Egyptian system there is the unit of the ro. And by definition 320 ro = 1 heqat. The symbol for the ro is the mouth, it represented one mouthful. Again I am thinking of Dumbledore drinking the potion in the basin, taking a mouthful at a time.
Now if we do the math, and if I am correct, 320 = 5 x 64... so in terms of ro we have 5 ro to register a Touch... 10 ro to register a Taste... 20 ro to register Hearing... 40 ro to register a Thought... 80 ro to register Sight... and 160 ro to register Smell... in that order.
I don't know how this relates to the way Dumbledore reacted in the cave, but drinking the potion by "mouthful" has me wondering.
Also, the Eye of Horus was believed to have tremendous protective power... a lot like a Horcrux, don't you think ?
Wow is all I can say!
That is some very interesting and exciting posts there!
I mean - when I first saw gumshoe's post and she attributed the Eye of Horus to Horace - I actually jumped straight to Horcrux!
And yes yes yes - if you look at the writings you provided - you can see how the theory could equally equate to Horcruxes ... this is very clever stuff!
I liked the original six as stated in the Eye if Horus - because once again that directly relates back to the 6 pieces of Voldemort - plus the missing part that will always be him. I liked the idea of a diminishing soul - each time you ripped the sould you ripped it in half - thus the first and last rip would have different amounts of soul - and also how it fits in with Vestrals thoughts on restricted killings.
I wish I could add more to this - but it is just awesome - I mean you can see the relevance to it all!
Big applause to both of you - another really exiciting, inspiring addition to TFH!!
Oh, for goodness sake...:o
A zillion points to respond to.
Vestral, I asked on the other thread how we might explain Moody's line about Voldemort offing Meadowes himself, if you think it's possible that he didn't.
Do you think it's indisputable that Harry is a Horcrux? Should I traipse over to that thread sometime soon?
Absolutely, the six parts do indeed sound familiar! Also, the Eye of Horus was among other things a funerary amulet and related to the afterlife. I too was blown away by the possible connection to Horcruxes. Seeing the segmentation of it made my head spin.
Dumbledore drinks from the basin 12 times before it's empty. Have no idea if that's valuable information or not!
If we are to wonder if the Eye of Horus is at the heart of this mystery, we probably should consider Alz' point about Voldemort making only 6 Horcruxes. I said in the other thread and will reiterate here, there may be a distinction between divisions and actual separations -- perhaps the more he kills, the more divisions he makes, but the separations might be...uh, separate? I'm not finding the words right now...I'm not sure I like this train of thought b/c I'm fascinated by the concept of only a finite number of killings possible, and I don't want to derail it before it's left the station, but it seems important to get more specific about how we interpret the contrast btw only a finite number possible and an infinite number possible (if you're in the business of Horcrux-making) and what seems most logical given the text we've got to go on.
What did you guys think of the parlor exhibitions of unwrapping mummies and Dr. Pettigrew the "High Priest?!"
One more item: How can we discuss his appearance successively becoming less human in terms of this thread topic? And (okay, two more items), if we are to entertain the Eye of Horus idea for awhile, what do we make of the very interesting point that you can't ever separate out ALL of your soul? (Because of the fractions, I mean...)
gumshoe
gumshoe... I found the info on Dr. Pettigrew very interesting... not a common name in the UK, is it ?
I feel, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that Harry(or at least his scar if we want to split hairs) is a Horcrux.
If I were a gambling man, I would bet the farm on this.
I am also waffling back and forth on the number of Horcruxes I think Voldemort has created... 6 or 7.
But I am pretty certain that Voldemort doesn't suspect Harry is a Horcrux just yet, but I'll bet he gets
there before Harry does.
I also think we need not read too much into the details of the Eye of Horus. I'm sure that Jo Rowling
used this info to help her create her Horcruxes, but like other instances, she has added a twist and
made it her own. She isn't fair and doesn't play by the rules... but it's her story darn it !
The second definition of CRUX is... a puzzling or apparently unsolvable problem. That about sums this up, huh ?
One last thing... my current thought of the moment is that there might be something to the 6 senses and the nature
of the 6 Horcruxes... for instance... the Touch Fraction may relate to Harry and the fact that Voldemort couldn't touch him at first, but I can't figure them all out... Diary = Thought ?
I don't know... Jo may have just used the Eye of Horus as a frame work for her Horcruxes and we are, as we say
in the Southern States (Georgia)... chasing rabbits.
I had a little look around and found some more interesting data on the Eye of Horus
The pupil of the Horus Eye had special magical powers for reviving the deceased, to judge from a Pyramid Text Utterance where the priest tells the dead king to “take the pupil which is in the Eye of Horus, for your mouth is split open by means of it.”
The actual color of the pupil is black. Although black could mean regeneration and fertility, as in “the Black Land” which was the ancient Egyptian name of Egypt, black was above all the color of night and death and the netherworld, and a circle filled in with black represented the black hole of non- being in which the world will dissolve at the end of time
The gist of the elaborate Egyptian funerary rites was to deny death by constantly reassuring the deceased that s/he was not dead but alive, and by replacing all allusions to death with euphemisms such as “the good day” for the day of death or "the beautiful house" for the smelly embalming shack.
The unnatural denial of the real color for the pupil is therefore a giveaway clue that the pupil of the Horus Eye was a window to that feared infinite darkness which the replacement of its color with the opposite may have helped to hold at bay.
That the Horus Eye series includes only six components and needs a magically obtained seventh part to make this divine unit complete ...
The magical power of the seventh part to complete a higher and holier unit than the common one composed of six parts ...
Source Here (http://www.recoveredscience.com/const102horuseye.htm)
How many times have we been made aware of Harry's eyes - all the references to them and in fact JKR said there is something important about his eyes ...
It has often been speculated if Harry's eyes were always green ... this could be relevant here ...
The pupils and the references to eyes and that of death, prevention and the likes once again leans towards Voldemort trying to defy death ..
Could a big part of killing Voldemort really come from looking into those muggle born eyes Harry took from his mother?
halliemei
10-11-2005, 17:31
First to respond to Blaise's point about Black being about the color of dead and all, we obviously can't forget the relationship of Sirius BLACK and Osiris (God of the Afterlife in Egypt).
Second, I looked at the site I think Vestral got the info on Eye of Horus and it has some more interesting stuff to explain the six parts. Let's see if we can try to match a horcrux or a death to each, or disprove it as JKR likes to use PARTS of myths rather than the whole thing.
1. Touch 1/64 heqat or 5 ro
This part of the EYE represents planting a stick into the ground. Like planting a stalk that will take root. The Earth represents touch. Planting itself represents physical contact and touching.
Sticks (maybe Frank's walking stick?) But, it really would have to be something else, I think
2. Taste 1/32 heqat or 10 ro
This part of the EYE represents the sprouting of the wheat or grain from the planted stalk. It is the food we put into our mouth. And so represents taste. Taste is also = Touch + Shape. That is to say, the different tastes we experience come from touching different shapes. So, touch is more a fundamental sense that taste.
First thought is obviously the cup. It COULD be the locket, though, because you had to taste the potion to get to it.
3. Hearing 1/16 heqat or 20 ro
This part of the EYE represents the EAR. The figure points towards the ear on the face. Also, it has the shape of a horn or musical instrument. When we Hear a sound or combination of sounds we find this to be pleasing or unplesant. The sound has a taste for us, causing a preference. Sound requires Touch + Taste and so is a combination of the lower senses.
The only thing that works for me is the "ring".
4. Thought 1/8 heqat or 40 ro
This part of the EYE represents thought. We often use our eyebrows to express our thoughts. And this facial feature is closest to that part of the forehead we associate with thinking. We raise our eyebrows to express surprise, for example. Thought = Touch + Taste + Hearing. If you think :) about it. Thinking is a kind of surpressed sound. The language we think in is like the *touch* of muscle prior to giving voice. And of course, we have a *taste* for different types of thoughts.
I think this would maybe be the diary.
5. Sight 1/4 heqat or 80 ro
This is the pupil of the EYE. And so no more needs to be said. It represents seeing, or the sensation of light.
This could be Harry. He has his mother's eyes, after all. (so perhaps made from his mother's death?)
6. Smell 1/2 heqat or 160 ro
This part of the EYE points to the nose. It even looks like a nose. It represents the sensation of smell.
I can't figure that one out. It would have to be the other of the cup or the locket. Or, I suppose the Ravenclaw artifact.
http://www.aloha.net/~hawmtn/horus.htm
Now, I did a lot of research on Horus, and it doesn't fit here (maybe I'll make a new thread). But, here's a little more on the eye.
I learned that it was believed that looking into Horus' eyes allowed the viewer to see the future. His eyes were bright, brilliant blue.
Now:
In Egyptian mythology the eye of Horus was wounded, wrenched out or eaten by the fearsome god Seth. Later it was restored and made whole, according to spell 17 in the Book of the Dead, by the ibis- headed god Thoth, the originator of mathematics, who ‘did this with his fingers’.
-cut-
They could also have shown that the sum was short of 1 by 1/64. (...) If the Horus - Seth - Thoth story really had a mathematical connotation, it could be that the damaged Horus- eye was magically made whole by the restoration of the missing 1/64.”2
-cut-
This so completed Eye had great symbolic importance. It provided protection in amulets; it guided boats that carried it on their bow; pairs of it painted on coffins allowed the deceased to see in the afterlife; its damage and healing reflected the waning and waxing of the moon; and it stood also for the religious act of offering as well as for an offering itself3.
-cut-
Significantly, the Horus- Eye hieroglyph and its hekat- components always omit the pupil which would have been needed to complete the eye.
The corresponding graphic element, a circle like that for the quarter- hekat iris but smaller, was used to designate whole hekats from one to nine5, so the missing part stood for the entire unit which only it could complete,
http://www.recoveredscience.com/const102horuseye.htm
I did also wonder if each heqat would represent an object in HP and the Horcruxes - but I suppose it was at this point I agreed with I think it was Vestral, when he suggested JKR might have used the premise but added her own spin on it ...
As such she might have used the premise of the eye of Horus - but created Horcruxes as a similarity - but not a direct relation.
Scattered thoughts on this topic and recent posts:
Totally agree, I think she'd use it as a basis and play with it to suit her purposes.
I think I read that the Eye of Horus was usually painted blue or red; if there were two on a coffin, red represented the sun and blue the moon (I could be making things up now, as my book has wandered away). I think the lack of pupil is interesting.
I still wonder, despite the overwhelming seeming-connection with Horcruxes, if there's any reason why Slughorn is named Horace. He's got green eyes, and it'd be quite a twist if he was related to Harry (especially considering the family-feud aspect of the Horus story). This is something I've actually thought about a great deal, and yet I can't decide if I believe it myself. It was just those darn green eyes.
This idea really meshes with Voldemort's pattern in so many ways. Limited number of deaths, extensive travels seeking the magic mysteries of evading death, the divisions of the soul with Horcruxes -- and yes, there's that alarming connection to Harry's eyes, his vulnerability as JK has said. Let's hope Harry doesn't lose one in the next book -- although...if he did, maybe there's a Potterverse character who's a parallel to the Egyptian god of writing, Toth (who reassembled Horus' eye after the fight with his evil uncle): Dumbledore anyone?
(This might be a good moment to turn myself into an armchair...)
JKR did say Harry had no living relatives - this was after people insisted going on that Harry and Dumbledore were related - she said if he had any relatives other than Petunia he wouldnt have been sent there :p
Today I added an article back I was very fond of called Ouroboros and the Dark Lord (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2303) which kind of touched upon another reason we have all the snake references :p
I read the Ouroboros article -- interesting -- are you mentioning it here in relation to the point I made about Voldemort symbolism and also his pursuit of eternal life? Are you connecting it to the Eye of Horus in some way -- is this an Egyptian mythology symbol?
I dont really want to stray too far from the course but yeah - I could see a great deal of equal symbolism between Ouroborus and the Eye of Horus ... both talk about preventing death but what I liked the most about Ouroborus was the snake eating it's own tail - almost like a Horcrux is made from him and it sustains his life, prevents death and ensures he is always going to be around.
We know how important snakes are to Slytherin and Harry Potter - idk - I just liked this premise and wrote that article back in September last year after milling around the premise of Ouroborus in my mind for a lot longer :p
Sorry - sounded a little self indulgent there :o
DumbledoreLives
15-11-2005, 19:25
:eek: Wowie-wow-wow. That was the most fascinating HP thread. It makes me want to tear through all of the books again looking for this symbolism that totally blows me away.
And here I was, just taking the snake symbolism at face value:
snake - evil - yucky - bad man.
But with the Ouroborus, it makes the symbolism so elegant. It says the snake, or Ouroborus is a symbol of continuous renewal, of resurrection. It eats its own tail to sustain its life.
(*jaw dropping*slapping forehead*) Isn't the Ouroborus the entrance to the Chamber of Secrets too?
and suddenly, i see the pink elephant standing in the room.
You are all brilliant!! I've got to go read now. I feel so unworthy.:o
You know what - I missed the symbol on CoS door - just checked the film and you are right :o :D
I suppose to take another stab at this - it would add a level of control to have Dumbledore performing only trophey kills in order to seal Horcruxes that the mass killings he is accused of.
Who knows - the guy might be misunderstood and have a rep he doesnt deserve ... yeah I was being sarcastic :D
I like the notion that you would restrict yourself - save yourself to make kills based on importance rather than just mass murder - it seems almost poetic ...
halliemei
03-07-2006, 19:13
"Poetic" is a good word for it. I think it's well within the personality of VM to have restricted himself to killings that were "important". He would consider muggle killing (usually) "beneath him." He uses his Death Eaters for that kind of stuff. To answer about the reputation he's amassed -- he is quite responsible for those deaths if he commanded/instructed/encouraged them. And, it certainly adds to people's fear of him to think that he did all those killings himself. He wouldn't want people to fear say Bella more than him!
Doesn't it also look more controlled and calculated that you choose who you want to kill and then send the willing servants after the others?
It was remarked a few times in the series about which deaths Voldemort was suspected of performing himself and others he contracted out - it just seems to add to the fear of him that if your card is marked by him - it is just a matter of time till it happens and the only bonus you have is if you annoyed him more than most - he would show up to do the deed!
It also reduced his exposure to control the killings he performed - he knew that the MoM and the Order were after him - by using his servants to take out the minor annoyances then the deaths he performed would be on a bigger scale - be more public and more infamous - would make him once again unique!
What is the point of just killing and killing - heck anyone can do that - he wanted to make sure there was a relevance when he stepped up to that plate and did his own dispatching ...
I just love the idea that Voldemort would be that manipulative and controlling that even when it came to killings and death - he was out there, on his own - unique - deserving of him and his attentions!
secret seeker
27-10-2006, 21:00
Knowing how j.k.r. adds twists like that I would'nt be surprised, Jo might have assumed that someone would make the connection to the eye of horus, and as a precautionary measure didnt use the egyptian method/numeracy. She may have simplified it for storytelling purposes or added something which only she would know, something nobody could find.
Gumshoe & Thestral : I envy your brilliance, you must be well educated, I never would have seen this and now believe it to have relevance in some way, didnt Jo register some egyptian themed name possibilities for book 7?. as dumbledore said " very astute".
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