View Full Version : The Veil and the Horcrux
I read this in another post, suggested or touched upon by another member - and thought I would take a stab at this in conjuction with the Harry is a Horcrux idea ...
So, we understand the veil kills - no chance of living ... we got this at the end of OoTP from Sir Nick etc.
So let's assume Harry is a Horcrux and has to find a way of removing the soul fragment but also wants to live.
If he passed through the veil - would it just remove the soul fragment and leave Harry and his soul untouched?
It seems like a total death and we certainly dont know enough about the veil apart from it kills - so is it feasible it could be used to remove and kill that sould fragment in Harry and lead to him and his own soul passing via the other side?
Thoughts?
I actually just within the past couple of days read an interesting theory about this on another forum. (I cannot take credit for this idea.) It was suggested that Harry would have to have a means of returning from the Veil alive -- such as passing through the Veil by possessing Voldemort. I really like this idea a lot -- it allows for the tables to be turned on Voldemort, and for the final battle to take place within Harry and/or behind the Veil, two ideas I find really appealing.
I just can't see how Harry could walk into it himself and walk back out minus Voldemort's soul-bit, without this idea of Harry possessing Voldemort. How in the world would he learn how to do this -- unless it was yet another one of those things he'd just "intuit," like all the other things he's intuited, perhaps originating from Voldemort's soul-bit after all.
I actually just within the past couple of days read an interesting theory about this on another forum. (I cannot take credit for this idea.) It was suggested that Harry would have to have a means of returning from the Veil alive -- such as passing through the Veil by possessing Voldemort. I really like this idea a lot -- it allows for the tables to be turned on Voldemort, and for the final battle to take place within Harry and/or behind the Veil, two ideas I find really appealing.
I just can't see how Harry could walk into it himself and walk back out minus Voldemort's soul-bit, without this idea of Harry possessing Voldemort. How in the world would he learn how to do this -- unless it was yet another one of those things he'd just "intuit," like all the other things he's intuited, perhaps originating from Voldemort's soul-bit after all.
It would have to be after all the horcruxes are destroyed and LV is now mortal TR. What would draw them back the MoM? Someone in another forum suggested the room in the DoM. I don't want Harry going through the veil unless he has a way back.:eek:
DumbledoreLives
16-11-2005, 00:28
The veil was in the sort of research section of the Ministry. So theoretically, they could have figured out a way back. If so, then maybe Harry could walk through, but because of his really strong life force and a pulse, be able to walk back. The horcrux within Harry, being small and unable to decide to live on its own could get stuck on the other side. (yes, *darn it* i was recently converted to the Harry is a horcrux persuassion earlier today).
Wasn't Sirius killed by Bellatrix LeStrange and then fell through the veil? This would support the idea that a living person could pass through without being harmed.
Harry's conversation with Sir Nicolas was about why Sirius didn't come back as a ghost. Sir Nick said something like knowing what things could be like as a ghost, most people rightfully stay on the other side of the veil.
Actually, i doubt Harry himself is a Horcrux. For one, we need tro consider why Voldemort was so eager to kill him in the end of Order of the Phoenix. The Dark Lord knows all the locations of the Horcrux, right? So why would he want to destroy one himself? Also Nagina dies so we see that the Horcrux, if put in any living thing, gets very weak
I think Sirius will come back, as will Dumbledore; there is always some new magic discovered in Rowlings books
That is an interesting theory. I do think there is something more to be revealed about the veil and also about Sirius. I just don't think we've heard the last about that.
For me, personally, I doubt Harry himself is a Horcrux. For one, we need tro consider why Voldemort was so eager to kill him in the end of Order of the Phoenix. The Dark Lord knows all the locations of the Horcrux, right? So why would he want to destroy one himself? Also Nagina dies so we see that the Horcrux, if put in any living thing, gets very weak[/QUOTE]
In the HBP, I think Harry will once again be protected, as he was in the Sorcerer's Stone, by his mum's sacrifice. Only this time, Dumbledore's sacrifice will be the enchantmentt o protect him
If JK decides to make Harry a horcrux (and I don't believe he is), I believe it could only have happened by accident. I'm trying to visualize how that might happen, the only thing I can think of is that LV might have cast the AK and followed it right away with the horcrux spell. What might have happened to the horcrux spell if it was hit by the rebounding AK spell? We know the AK doesn't leave a mark on its victims--so how come Harry has a scar? That could be when Harry became a horcrux, though I prefer not to think so. I think instead that's when some of LV's powers were tranferred to Harry.
fawn2388
16-11-2005, 18:52
Thsi is a thought I would like to throw in. Say what you want.
If Harry Potter is the final horcrux, and a horcrux is a part of soul, than wouldn't Harry also have part of the personality of Voldemort? But, in a way he does have many things alike with Voldemort/Tom Riddle. The way he grew up, the fact that he is half blooded, and some of his traits. This may suggest that Harry is a horcrux, which I strongly disbelieve.
But also, in the books its gives the impression that Voldermort wants to kill Harry, but it does soldemnly state it. So, who says that Voldermort wasn't just trying to get what he needed in Harry. Maybe all Voldermort needs to get is Harry's blood, and drink it, like the unicorns, because Slughorn says that person will always live a half life. If you need clarifying say so.
Sirius Potter Fan
16-11-2005, 21:37
Back to the assumption that Harry IS a horcrux. . .(again something I doubt, but for the sake of discussion) I think it possible that the veil could hold the answer. First question though is, just how far into the veil you must go to be "gone". can you put your finger through? Your arm? All but your hand holding on to something or someone. could that not force a forign bit of soul out of you? something that doesn't anylonger have contact with it's own body outside of the veil? A good possibility I say.
Perhaps then Ron and Hermione could hold on to Harry while he sticks his head in?
Yuck, Helene! That'd give a new meaning to the term "deadhead," wouldn't it? :eek:
I speculated (on the other forum) that perhaps one of Dumbledore's contraptions in his office is a "mini-veil" type thing -- I guess I was trying to make the idea work of Dumbledore destroying the ring Horcrux by passing it through the veil, b/c I can't see him and Snape traipsing down to the Ministry when Dumbledore's life is on the line.
Could Harry if he's a Horcrux, do this without possessing Voldemort? Perhaps by taking some potion that allows him to be temporarily immortal?
You know I think the whole veil thing is interesting anyway. Someone asked (I can't remember if it was this forum or another) if Bella AKd Sirius and he fell through the veil. I always thought that Sirius ducked a spell from Bella and accidently went through the veil, but I haven't got the book with me to check. Isn't the MoM studying the veil because it's so unusual and no one really understands it? If going through the veil means you die, I'd be a little nervous about having something like that laying around (so to speak). Now perhaps since DD's office is very well protected it wouldn't be a concern. But it's certainly an interesting idea about a mini device in DD's office. That would be complicated to access if it stays in there because it's now McG's office -- and Harry is keeping her out of the loop.
The last spell we saw cast on Sirius was red, if memory serves. I got the impression he passed through the Veil alive, but died because of it, not the spell itself.
Yes, wouldn't it stand to reason, a "self-taught" man like Dumbledore would do some research on his own?
DumbledoreLives
18-11-2005, 01:14
I just re-read the related section in OotP and it was definitely Bellatrix that hit Sirius in the chest with a spell. His expression is one of shock, but it is inconclusive as to whether he was dead before he passed through the veil, or died because of falling through it. So it is still unknown as to the effects the veil may have on a living person that passes through it, i. e. Harry. However, when Lupin saw what happened, he tells Harry that Sirius is dead and can't come back. Is the veil a one way ticket to the afterlife? A portal? A spirit keeper, like some sort of cage? WHAT IS IT? :confused: Still, just calling it a 'veil' would suggest it is hiding its true nature.
Oh, you're so right! It's not a curtain, a tapestry, a sheet, a screen...but a veil...
I'd always taken it for granted that it was a "one-way ticket to the afterlife," but now you've got me remembering that taking things at face value with JK doesn't always work, does it? What is the "mystery" about it after all?
I still wonder how much Dumbledore knows about it...
Oh, you're so right! It's not a curtain, a tapestry, a sheet, a screen...but a veil...
I'd always taken it for granted that it was a "one-way ticket to the afterlife," but now you've got me remembering that taking things at face value with JK doesn't always work, does it? What is the "mystery" about it after all?
I still wonder how much Dumbledore knows about it...
And how much the MoM has found out about how it works. Would Arthur be able to assist in finding out about it if Harry needed him to, or would that be going too far beyond the direction from DD to only confide in Ron & Hermione? Perhaps Ron could get some information out of his father without appearing to?
Let's not forget a veil is used to conceal - that could be important.
Just to back DumbledoreLives up a bit here - Sirius was hit with a spell but it was never concluded to my satisfaction it was AK and he was dead when he hit the veil.
The premise is pretty clear - JKR built up the veil - that means should see it again - now of course that could be a great JKR red herring as well - but if you look at what it does - you have to think some part of Voldemort goes through it - and I would like to think it would be the part he left in Harry - Harry might walk in one side and out the other minus the soul piece.
Perhaps he pushes Voldemort into it and then realises that he is a horcrux and walks in after him - we all assume the worse but he comes out the other side minus the scar and Voldemort fragment ... there was Harry potter - but no scar ... the end ...
Well, that really resonates with the themes of self-sacrifice and purity, but I have a hard time thinking he'd survive the Veil just by the virtue of the Horcrux being the only part of him killed. I'd think anything living walking in there would end up dead, wouldn't it? That was why I liked the discussion I read on the other forum -- Harry possessing Voldemort and forcing him through -- Harry's body would be left outside, his mind would be the only part of him behind the Veil. Of course, this raises the very interesting question of where does the soul reside -- the body or the mind -- a question I've been thinking deeply about for about ten years, actually, outside of the series. I wonder what JK's thoughts on that are.
We should see it again, for sure. I get the impression that Arthur wouldn't have any inside info on it, but the Longbottoms might, although now that JK says they're just utterly wrecked and there's nothing to the wrappers (:mad: ) we can't really expect any direction from them, can we.
I love the distinction that it's a veil and inasmuch is hiding something.
DumbledoreLives
21-11-2005, 23:57
Hiya~
I found some interesting 'veil' references and posted them under the "7 is the Lucky Number" thread. Please read the post and tell me what you think. It deals with the connectiion to the tarot, which was also brought up in the "It's in the Cards" thread. To highlight, the High Priestess card in the tarot is sitting in front of a veil. The veil depicts pomegranates, which link it to a myth about a goddess that by eating the pomegranates was able to pass between the worlds of the living and the dead. So if this is what the VEIL implies, maybe Harry has a chance of going beyond the veil and surviving. I certainly hope so. This veil of the tarot is also known as the veil of truth and the High Priestess, which is so like JKR, is the only one who can divulge the truth. Therefore, if we take the literal meaning, maybe the veil of truth only lets things that are 'real' and 'true' pass between it. Therefore, since the horcrux is some sort of abomination and not a living entiry in and of itself, it shouldn't be part of the living and real world. Therefore, if HP passes through the veil, it would keep the part that is untrue and not himself. Just the bad stuff - the horcrux.
I find these connections to the tarot, even though they are very 'surface' level, are no accident and seem to be too strong to ignore. There's references to a lightening struck tower (similar to where DD supposedly died -although I KNOW he's still alive and out there.) There's also references to the Star card, or Sirius, and the Magician card, which is so like Voldy. I'm not saying I know anything significant about the tarot, but I found the connections so intriguing. I so want to discuss this further. Please check it out. :D
I liked the raise point above - Harry is left with a choice - and as JKR keeps saying it is all about choices. The we had the Dumbledore comment about chosing between what is right and what is easy.
I like the idea that Harry is left at the veil - perhaps he knows at this time he is a horcrux.
What I like it a little side theory - Sirius passed through the veil and never came back out - he wouldnt have wanted to die because of looking atfer Harry.
But then look at Harry - all the people he really loved are all dead - perhaps he finally works out he is a horcrux and he cannot live otherwise Voldemort will - he passes into the veil with no regrets about death - and as such passes through and out the other side - only thing removed would be the soul fragement, the bad part of him that doesnt want to die ... the Voldemort part??
Please tell me no! All right--I'm a sucker for a happy ending; I admit it. I think the series will be ruined if Harry dies. There's plenty of tragedy in his parents' generation. DD managed to defeat a dark lord without dying; I want Harry to be like DD!
Sirius Potter Fan
28-11-2005, 20:38
I like the idea of DD having his own mini version of the veil. Or even if not, possibly some info to be passed on to Harry about it. Enough people knew enought about it to assure Harry that Sirius would not come back, that someone must surely know just what it does and how it works. I am sure also that we will see it again. I just don't see JKR using it just to kill off Sirius, when he had already been hit by a spell. . . wondering. . . we don't know what that spell was. . . what if the spell that hit him before he went through, could have affected how the veil itself acted?
DumbledoreLives
29-11-2005, 00:39
In OotP, after everything is said and done, Luna has a moment with Harry and tells him something about Sirius being 'just behind the veil'. She asks Harry, "Didn't you hear them? Whispering" (behind the veil). Yes, HP did hear the whispering. He and Luna were the only ones that did, it seemed. (They were also the only students that saw the Thestrals too.) Thinking DD is also behind the veil, HP will want to try to contact him and Sirius for help. He'll then find a way back into the Department of Mysteries. He'll listen to the voices behind the veil. But, he won't be able to hear DD - "BECAUSE DD'S NOT DEAD"! Instead, the other voices will give him clues or ideas about how to use the veil to destroy the horcrux within him. Or maybe he'll take it with him and throw it over Voldy and all the spirits behind it will attack him.
I do also like the idea that DD's office contains some kind of gadgetry that may be linked to the veil.
Actually - Neville could see the thestrals as can Hagrid ;)
And as far as voices - well there is a little more to that - while Harry and Luna could hear voices - a couple of the others were drawn to it - seems only Hermione and I think Ron didnt seem to get anything from it ... we have a whole debate on that somewhere in here as well :D
It is possible the Veil was one of JKR's best ever diversion tactics but I still want to believe there is a purpose for an object that can kill someone - yet keep them in eternal turmoil - not sure if that would suit Voldemort or not ...
Not sure anything dissapears without a trace - including the things that pass through it ...
Seems the souls are caught in their - but the body discarded ...
Vold. E. Mort
29-11-2005, 05:58
This may have been discussed, but I didn't see it..
re: The ring and DD's dead hand.. Do you think DD could have used the veil to "kill" the ring and sacrificed his own hand to do it? Put on ring, put hand through veil, should do the trick if the veil is that potent a killer.. I think the fact that the ring was cracked tells us that the host for the soul is on a one way ride. If Harry is a horcrux, he MUST die either way. He either dies when LV claims his soul, or he must die to destroy the soul before LV can claim it.. But, JKR has stated she won't kill any of the 3.. ARGH! When is that damn 7th book due out again?
fawn2388
29-11-2005, 07:08
If its true that JKR will not kill any of the 3 (I'm guessing Harry, Ron & Hermoine) Than that just dissappoints me, I've honestly always wante to see Harry die, He is rather annoying.
But with the one way ride to death of being a Horcrux, this may support the fact thtat Harry is a horcrux a little bit. Voldermort wants Harry dead. Plan and simple. But, if he knows that he can keep his hands on him and kill him 'when the time is right' Than, this is supporting the fact that Harry is a Horcrux, but I am still leaning on the side that Harry is not a horcrux
Once again I think it would be prudent to look at the veil and what we know of it.
It has an attraction to some people - others can actually here voices behind it - while others just dont get anything from it.
Also worth looking at Luna - appeared very late in the story - was a little back seated during HBP - but most important can hear the voices the same as Harry.
I know we have looked elsewhere at what could link them - but I feel a clue once again.
I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say the voices they can hear must be the souls of those that passed through it - or otherwise it is a gateway into the next life ... both of whick could be pertinant to the story and how Voldemort will finally bo out.
I still want to believe there is a purpose for an object that can kill someone - yet keep them in eternal turmoil - not sure if that would suit Voldemort or not ...
I hope Harry will do a DD:
OotP, p. 814
“ You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?” . . .
“We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom” . . . “Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit--”
So what can Harry do to LV/Tom that will destroy him but not merely take his life?
If Harry is a horcrux, he MUST die either way. He either dies when LV claims his soul, or he must die to destroy the soul before LV can claim it
Do we know that for sure though? What if someone who created a horcrux wanted to move the soul piece from one object to another? Are we sure it can't be done? If it can, and Harry ends up being a horcrux, perhaps he could remove the soul piece--put it in Tom's school award ;) or some such and then destroy it.
But, JKR has stated she won't kill any of the 3.. Has JK said that? I heard her in an interview once where she was asked why she wasn't planning to write more books after Harry finishes school. JK asked how we know Harry will still be alive.
Also worth looking at Luna - appeared very late in the story - was a little back seated during HBP - but most important can hear the voices the same as Harry.
I was surprised in my most recent reread of the series to find the Lovegoods mentioned in GoF.
Don't you find the Voldemort/Dumbledore exchange noted above as very cold by Dumbledore - 'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me..'
Given the voices and whispers behind that veil - I still feel if that is people caught in between life and death - what would be more satisfying for Dumbledore to do that to a person that is so afraid of death!
Still - it takes a cold person to say that .... I still feel that is a great DiE quote :p
That quote is one of the reasons I believe DD to be much tougher than many people give him credit for being. He's 150 years old--has he never been married? Did he ever have any children? Someone suggested that perhaps what we hear him say in the cave (if it's DD and not a stand in :) ) could be him responding to when his family was killed--perhaps by Grindelwald.
I don't think the voices are from people who are caught between life and death. Isn't that what ghosts are supposed to be? I thought it was the voices of those who have died?
SnarkologyMajor
09-01-2006, 05:15
Since she called it The Veil-it implies something mysterious, and I guess that's why I think it's probably something other than what she wants us to think it is:D
Similar "veils" have been used as doorways between the living and the dead-but they have also been use to separate realities and time. Also in the Bible-the veil separated the people from God(yet they could speak to him there).
Hey how's this for a wild idea?-Harry's stuck in limbo and the people on the other side are the ones in the real world, we do have that hint in the restricted section at the library too...I know-that sounds a bit out there since I'm not sure how it would explain Luna and Neville hearing them?
Would that make Ron, Hermoine and all the others 'not real'??
I think it really has something to do with the Thestrals: Neville, Luna and Harry are the only ones who can see the Thestrals and all 3 can hear whispering. The voices Harry hears could be from Lily and James(and Cedric), that's why he's so attracted to the veil: he feels his parents are there. In Neville's case: he have seen his grandfather die, so that's the voice he is hearing. Same for Luna. Perhaps if Harry ever returns to the DoM, he can speak to his parents, and Sirius, and Dunbledore-if he's dead.
Well what is interesting (and speculated in another thread in here) is that the veil affected people in different ways - Harry, Luna and Neville were attracted to it - but I'm sure the others were drawn to it in a certain or be it different way - the only one that really seemed to stay away was the person that seemed to have a level of comprehension and apprehension - also discussed in another thread ...
As SM was said - a veil is used to hide things - and a horcrux seems to hide a piece of soul - the veil in this case seems to have voices of souls (if I may be as bold) ...
Also - the room was reffered to as the Death Room - it was also presented in a way that allowed the MoM to view things - to study death ...
Given Voldemort's fear of dying and to prevent it ... well you can see where I am going!
Ginny and Neville were "apparently entranced" by the veil. Harry and Luna heard voices through the veil. Ron didn't appear to be bothered by it. But what was it about the veil that made Hermione so nervous?
"She sounded scared, much more scared than she had in the room where the brains swam. . ."
"Harry, let's go, okay?" said Hermione more forcefully. . .
"What do you mean, in there? demanded Hermione, jumping down from the bottom step and sounding much angrier than the occasion warranted. "There isn't any 'in there,' it's just an archway, there's no room for anybody to be there--Harry, stop it, come away--" . . .
"Harry, we are supposed to be here for Sirius!" she said in a high-pitched, strained voice. . .
"I don't know [what it was], but whatever it was, it was dangerous," she said firmly . . .
So what did she sense?
We have a thread on this I really liked a lot - perhaps you can take your thoughts over to there - Hermione Scared (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=684) **
It is kinda relevant to here as well - I that if we can understand how and why people had the reactions they did to the veil it might explain more about what it is and what uses it could be knowing what we know in HBP ... I think we do have some specs on that veil, many comments I think could be reviewed knowing what we know post HBP!
Still very interested where something so old came from - I often get the thought it mught have been a time experiment gone wrong given what we saw in DoM - but still want to know why and how the MoM was observing death!
**Sorry should have added that the thread is in the wild spec forum - use your UserCP/Group Memeberships for access!
Yes. It actually reminded me of the Stargate in the movie by the same name. :) Because, while it's being studied in the DoM, we don't know if the veil was made by wizards.
Hmmm, it won't let me go to the link! What general category is the thread in?
Sorry - the link is in the Wild Speculation package - you can request access if you go to the top here and click UserCP/Group Memberships and select 'Wild Speculation Package' ... we have some extra forums that are hidden away for Graduates who can request access via the above procedure :p
I was looking for some JKR quotes and she said in one of them that the Ministry were using the veil for investigations into death and it was never used for executions ... seems a rather weird thing to investigate to me - and to stage it in a manner like an amphitheatre - just seems kinda funny ...
Given only Dumbledore and RAB were the only ones that suspected Voldemort was using Horcruxes - I would hesitate the MoM weren't investigating that - so if the veil and horcrux are to cross - it would be as a means of introducing a horcrux to the veil and possible effects ...
You know, I keep wondering if Lily or James could have had something to do with this department. I'm listening to the series again on tape, and I'm on PoA. It reminded me when I got to the part where Vernon tells Marge that James didn't have a job that JK has been very careful not to say what James and/or Lily did to support themselves. We know they were in the Order, but not what they did for a day job. I find that very curious and wonder if it could eventually lead back to the DoM.
JKR did say they both had jobs - and I am racking brains to see if she later said they were both Auror's like Frank Longbottom ...
But yeah - I can see them being aurors but can also see them working in and around the DoM - maybe they found something to do with Voldemort and death or at least 'other' steps he took long ago to prevent it ... perhaps even Frank found something as an auror and then called in th Potters to help him look given their Unspeakable/DoM roles - could tie in with thrice defied no ...
Yes, and Lily and James did not necessarily have to work at the same place. Age is an issue, too, for them to be Aurors since it requires an additional 3 years training. I think I read somewhere (please correct me if my memory is wrong) that Sirius was about 19 or 20 when he went to Azkaban.
I think they were early 20's - I used to think around 23/24 but I think I was argued back closer to 21/22 maybe?
All I know is that the Potters in the films look much, much older!
Whoa, I agree with you there. I read that Lily and James got married right out of school. They were very young when they died. So, perhaps you can go to school (Auror?) part time and work part time? Or school full time and work part time? That might account for some of it.
Well I was listening to OoTP today and Neville's Grandma says that Neville's parents were auror's ... and I am sure they were all at school together and maybe same year - if so then the Longbottoms made it to Auror's before being attacked.
Fortescue
14-01-2006, 16:09
Okay, so I'm way behind on this thread so I'll put my two cents in.
Going back on something Alz said about the Potters and JKR saying they both had jobs; I don't remember reading anything like that. I know I haven't read her old interviews much lately, but I believe it has just been assumed that they were well off enough that the subject of their work never really came up. Looking at the load of money they were able to leave Harry, I'd say they didn't have to worry about much financially.
As for the timeline - the Potters were born in or around 1960. Harry was born in 1980, they were murdered in 1981 so I'd say they were both around 21 when they died. Sirius would have been about the same age when he went to Azkaban, although we are never given any kind of a feeling for how long it took from the time he was captured until he was sentenced. I think Crouch probably weighed his sentence immediately, so Sirius was 21.
If we look at the timeline, and figure they all graduated from Hogwarts when they were seventeen, they would have just completed Auror training around the time the Prophecy was made. I really doubt the Potters were Aurors, but in a romantic kind of way, I could see Sirius going into Auror training just so he could catch his brother and rub his mother's nose in it.
The veil has probably been in the DoM for way longer then any of the characters have been in the story, so I really can't think of any type of link to the Potters or the Longbottoms. I don't think Aurors have any ties to Unspeakables, so I'm not sure there would be a connection between the two different groups of Ministry employees and the veil.
What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive?
Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both Harry's parents later.
You can read that both ways I suppose - but I think there is enough there to suggest they were working.
The fact that both the Longbottoms and the Potters thrice defied the Dark Lord suggests to me a link - it could simply be the OoTP work but I think there is more to it - I think at least one of these occasions happened when both sets of parents were together.
As far as age you have to allow for a year because like when I was at school with my step sister - my birthday is in July - her's in November - she was just under a year older than me but we were both in the same year - ergo at certain parts of the year she was a year older on paper.
Hence the 21/22 :)
SnarkologyMajor
15-01-2006, 04:25
J.K.R. says on her FAQ questions that Sirius was around 22:D Curiously-Frank is the only one mentioned as an Auror in the pensieve trial and by Dumbledore, Moody doesn't mention one or the other, Neville's gran says they were both Aurors, and J.K.R. says they were both famous aurors on FAQ's. I'd say Jo's word is the last-still a bit curious? Since she does mention that they are famous-I would guess that they were probably older than James and Lily. One question I've been wondering is why would Mrs. Longbottom have been unable to do what Lily did?
I believe Mrs. Longbottom could have done the same thing for Neville that Lily did for Harry--if and only if she was not a target. The key here is that Lily didn't have to die and that is why her sacrifice gave Harry the protection. For some reason, when LV went to GH, he was going to kill James and then Harry--but let Lily go. If LV had intended to kill Lily, Harry would have died.
Ok, I'm still curious about this veil, it's funny how topics can shift. . . lol.
I don't think jkr would have introduced something that powerful to the series without intending it for a pourpose greater than merely killing off one of the characters.
I read a really good spec on another website, so I can't take credit for it but he said that in the seventh book Harry would go to Godrics Hollow, where he would find an old diary, his mothers diary, and being the crafty charm worker Lilly was, she will have enchanted it "for my eyes olny" Harry ofcourse having his mothers eyes, would be able to read it. . .
This could be a huge help to Harry if Lilly had any ties to the MoM, or the DoM. Or maybe even 1 or 2 of Voldy's weaknesses, the Potters did escape him 3 times.
I don't know, I just thought that this whole veil Idea actually has a decent foundation. I'd like to hear more. I especially liked ALZ theory: It wont kill you if you don't fear death.
Even if Harry isn't a horcrux, it still might play a part in Voldemorts demise.
Yes, and Harry has been willing to face death bravely several times already. So does that mean Sirius feared death?
Yes - I think he did ...
I think he really wanted to be with Harry - be there for Harry, he was his godfather!
We saw in OoTP the too and fro of Sirius as he scrambled to be the godfather and also responsible ... I think if it wasnt for Harry he would have gladly died.
The thought of him being innocent was what was suppose to have kept him sane in Akzaban - I cant help but feel the thought he might be able to get to Harry would have also been a large part.
Also never forget who much JKR invested to bring him into the series only to kill him off a couple of books later - there is something more to that story as well ;)
Harry has lost so much - and continues to even now - I think he is realising death and destruction follow him wherever he goes based on Voldemort's belief in the prophecy ... I think there will come a point when Harry really does believe that he is better off dead ... I mean he came really close to it in GoF when he finally faced off Voldemort and then we saw what happens ...
Side point but can anyone confirm or have any evidence to the age of the Longbottoms ...
Still interested as to why the MoM was conducting tests on death and who or what they were using to put in there!
I think I can see Sirius wanting to die if he thought his entire future was likely to be what it was at the end--trapped in that house he'd worked so hard to escape. I would have thought the pull to be there for Harry--like the pull to get Peter--would have been stronger, though. We think Harry's life is tragic, but I really think Sirius's is more so. All that potential--locked in that horrible prison, betrayed by a friend, having been instrumental (accidental though it was) in that friend's betrayal, believed to be a murderer by everyone--including friends and family, almost being exonerated, and Snape poking at him at every opportunity . . . Now my personality is my own, I realize, but those things would make me want to live more--just to prove everyone they were wrong.
While Harry realizes there is death and destruction following him, I think he knows it's not his fault. I don't believe he has a death wish as others have suggested--that somehow he's in a hurry to join his dead loved ones. They will still be there for him after he's lived a long, fulfilling life with the kind of home for his children that he never had. Ginny and the rest of the Weasleys would be great for that. I want Harry to be a survivor and not just another one of LV's victims.
I love the idea that having inherited Lily's eyes could play a part in things--especially if she was one of the unspeakables at the DoM. I agree that the veil must play a part in Book 7, because it's just begging to be. There's too much potential there.
Professor Sprout
27-05-2006, 04:23
How's this for an idea - the veil was erected as an experiment partly in response to Voldy (and other Dark Wizards) making Horcruxes. Could it be a way for Horcruxes to be destroyed? I liked the idea that Dumbledore might have used it to pass his hand through and destroy the ring Horcrux, but why not just throw the ring through?
I think that Hermione was scared because she had read about the veil somewhere in her studies. Perhaps one of the classes she took when she used the time-turner (one that Harry and Ron didn't attend). I like the idea the Harry, Hermione and Ron have to destroy Voldy all together... Harry's determination to revenge all those deaths, Hermione's brains and Ron's.... Ron's loyalty? Family? ...
Over and out,
Sprout
:D
The subject of Horcruxes isnt a common one - I mean if we take Dumbledore at his word he only recently worked out that Voldemort was using Horcruxes and I dont think the Ministry suspected it either ... Fudge was sure Voldemort had not and would not return.
I did have this thought that the Veil was found and then taken from Voldemort hideout post mortem by the Unspeakables and Ministry ... I also had the thought Voldemort was using it in the making of his horcruxes - but then in book 7 Sluggy reckons a Horcrux is sealed using a spell ...
SnarkologyMajor
29-05-2006, 02:43
JKR did say the the Veil has been there for a very long time-
TLC/Mugglenet interview-"The Veil's been there as long as the Ministry of Magic has been there and the Ministry of Magic has been there, not as long as Hogwarts, but a very long time. We're talking hundreds of years."
She went on to say that they didn't use it for anything other than studying-they study the mind, death, the universe...of course these are things that Voldemort must have studied extensively in order to create multiple horcruxes.
Well - I did dismiss my idea when Sluggy said there was a spell.
So - veil was there less time than Hogwarts - don't suppose there is any relevance to that then - if so I think it is probably a minor digression.
I can see the Unspeakables studying death - Nick says as much end of OoTP ... but more relevant you would have thought would be Voldemort interested in what they were up to ... a good question for JKR would be 'In OoTP - was that Voldemort first ever jaunt into the MoM since he became Voldemort?' ... might unleash some snippets of information!
Make you wonder what their studying entails? Do they have people who come and sit in the little mini auditorium and contemplate the veil? Surely they must do something.
I think we were covering that in another thread - in my mind it reminds me of the old medical schools when you had the doctor and operating table in the middle of the room and the students watched him/her perform an operation ...
This 'Death Room' was setup for wider viewing ... audience if you like!
SnarkologyMajor
03-06-2006, 00:55
Came across an interesting quote from 2000 that is applicable here-
Question-"What makes some witches/wizards become ghosts when they die and some not?"
JKR-"You don't really find that out until Book VII, but I can say that the happiest people do not become ghosts."
Perhaps this is what the veil was being used to study? And can we see a connection w/horcruxes?
..I'm sure tied in with that statement there is another that says we find out more about Myrtle as well ... that could simply be because it will explain how departed people become ghosts.
I kinda thought JKR took a stab at it in OoTP with Nearly Headless Nick - it seems like it is people that feel they had been removed from the world prematurely - maybe unfinished business - or maybe just fear of death means they wont pass over?
Dumbledore's quote about death being the next big adventure seems to make sense - if you don't fear death - you have no reason to stick around if you are killed ..
Those whispers behind the veil seem to be one of the things I struggle over - especially the fact not everyone in that room heard them ... this could be relevant if HiaH and the fact this device is used pretty much as a means to kill someone!
SnarkologyMajor
04-06-2006, 02:06
Yeah I thought she took a stab at it too-yet even Nick's explanation at the end, when compared to horcruxes is just plain weird! The two sound eerily similiar in circumstance don't they? It sure seems like that veil is the door to the other side-yet having it be death's door feels too simple, I don't know-I tend to go around in circles on that one, because maybe it should be that simple:D When JKR says we will see Sirius again-I feel like it will either be because Harry passes on the other side (and hopefully comes back) or because Harry goes back in time....
When JKR says we will see Sirius again-I feel like it will either be because Harry passes on the other side (and hopefully comes back) or because Harry goes back in time....
And there you have motive to re-visit MoM because Hermione does not have a time-turner any more he will go in search of one.
Well it was claimed all the Ministry time turners were destroyed the night Harry and co were in the DoM ... but if you are going to find any surviving ones then that is a good place to start!
I often thought Harry would re-live the final night events in third person - be it pensive or timeturner - I did wonder when he goes back to Godric's Hollow if that would spark a flashback ... popular theory that!
I still think if Harry has to rid himself of a soul fragment or just that connection to Voldemort then the veil does represent a good trigger for it - heck who knows perhaps Harry will see Sirius back there and he will force him back ..
One thing I noticed about the veil is it attracts people to it - you walk in there because you want to - not forced to - so if Sirius was forced in there - does that upset the dynamic of the device?
It is more of a sacrifice than and killing machine - I think you choose to walk in there rather than pushed - heck that sounds like Harry at the end of the chapter Horcruxes - the difference between walking into the arena of being forced!
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