Sealing the Gryffindor Item?

[Alz]

He was sure that Voldemort's hand had twitched towards his pocket and his wand; but then the moment had passed, Voldemort had turned away, the door was closing, and he was gone.

I had seen it said before about this moment - so figured I would throw it out there for thoughts.
We debated about this episode and why Voldemort went to Dumbledore to make his request - I have to disagree with the general concensus but if you follow it, think on this.
Perhaps his only intention was to get into Dumbledore's office and to many powerful objects, including Gryffindor's sword - he keeps the pretense of applying for a job and then uses the time to perform whatever charm or spell he needed to for sealing a Horcrux right there in Dumbledore's office.
The quote above reads two ways - I can see the arguments coming so will prepare myself ... but just think, if he did seal a Horcrux in that office - how safe would it have been and also think of it from Voldemort's POV - the only person he ever feared keeping a piece of him safe and sound ... and having no idea about it!

Thoughts? :D

[DumbledoreLives]

I think Voldy really wanted to teach. It would have been a great recruiting opportunity. I think too that it could have been Voldy's other intention to seal the Gryffindor horcrux during this 'visit'. However, I think this is mostly like **sorry for the OT reference** Anakin Skywalker wanting to be on the Jedi high counsil: He's talented and has a broad range of experience, but Yoda is suspicious of him much like Dumbledore was always suspicious of Tom Riddle.

I think Dumbledore would have known what Tom was up to, as this ability is proved time and again when he always knows what Harry has done, or is contemplating. His kind of psychic connection to others and to his environment is the reason why I think Dumbledore WILL return in the final book. (crossing fingers, toes and eyes.):D

[The Frozen North]

I had seen it said before about this moment - so figured I would throw it out there for thoughts.
We debated about this episode and why Voldemort went to Dumbledore to make his request - I have to disagree with the general concensus but if you follow it, think on this.
Perhaps his only intention was to get into Dumbledore's office and to many powerful objects, including Gryffindor's sword - he keeps the pretense of applying for a job and then uses the time to perform whatever charm or spell he needed to for sealing a Horcrux right there in Dumbledore's office.
The quote above reads two ways - I can see the arguments coming so will prepare myself ... but just think, if he did seal a Horcrux in that office - how safe would it have been and also think of it from Voldemort's POV - the only person he ever feared keeping a piece of him safe and sound ... and having no idea about it!

Thoughts? :D


Nice thought, not quiite sure what my opinion is yet but I don't think it could have been Gryffindor's sword as unless I'm mistaken (which happens quite frequently if you ask my wife :p ) it was not in DD's office until after Harry had presented it to him at the end of COS

[Vold. E. Mort]

DD would have known he'd done something because "Magic leaves a trace" or whatever it was he told Harry about the chain in the cave. He can't just wiggle his nose like on Bewitched and it's overwith. I think the angle of DD keeping part of the soul would be wonderful though.

[Alz]

OK, I understand the comments ... let me try again ...

Why would JKR have written the above - I mean think about it - it served no real purpose to both story and context if it was just a benign move.
Now consider he did manage to do it - then you might see the reason it was noted and written ...
I just cant think why JKR would go to the trouble of writing that unless it was just a little relevant ...
I mean - if she wanted to show Voldemort annoyed there could have been an angry exchange of words etc - but Voldemort did this and then left - no arguments the whole deal.
I cant get it out of my mind that he made something in that office a horcrux!

With regards to the sword - good point :o ;)
I was sure I read in another book that the sword was in there before Harry produced it from the Hat - but cant find it now :o

[Ana C.B.Rodrigues]

Perhaps his only intention was to get into Dumbledore's office and to many powerful objects, including Gryffindor's sword - he keeps the pretense of applying for a job and then uses the time to perform whatever charm or spell he needed to for sealing a Horcrux right there in Dumbledore's office.
:D


well, The sword wasn't there by that time.... as you may remember Harry got it from the hat...:rolleyes: Therefore I think he couldn't have done it to the sword.
Therefore I don't believe he would do that to the sorting Hat, because otherwise, it wouldn't help Harry to get ride of the Basilisk in Chamber of Secrets.:D

[Ana C.B.Rodrigues]

Maybe Voldemort kicked a missing object from Dumbledore's office...

[Seeker615]

I thought when he did that twitching movement he cursed the DADA position so no-one would last more than a year at that post.

DD did say that since that night nobody has ever held the Dark arts job for more than a year.

Interesting take though.

[Alz]

well, The sword wasn't there by that time.... as you may remember Harry got it from the hat...:rolleyes: Therefore I think he couldn't have done it to the sword.
Therefore I don't believe he would do that to the sorting Hat, because otherwise, it wouldn't help Harry to get ride of the Basilisk in Chamber of Secrets.:D
Are you really sure about that?
I had the impression it was in Dumbledore's office - Harry pulled it from the hat because he needed it at the time - not sure I can be so certain that it was always hidden in there till Harry pulled it out ...
Dumbledore knew what it was - suggests he had seen it before - I guess I read the situation as Harry needed it and was able to get it - like Fawkes and the Sorting hat - all in Dumbledore's office.

[Ana C.B.Rodrigues]

I thought when he did that twitching movement he cursed the DADA position so no-one would last more than a year at that post.

DD did say that since that night nobody has ever held the Dark arts job for more than a year.

Interesting take though.


Well I think that explains everything... Isupport your Idea... cause I think it would have to be a much more complicated spell to do an Horcrux....;)

[SnarkologyMajor]

JKR might have nixed the Sorting Hat as a horcrux, but I'm not ruling out the Sword-I did get the distinct impression that Voldemort was doing more than cursing the DADA position on that little visit. His applying for a job was a farce since he knew Dumbledore wasn't going to hire him. He was definately there for another purpose and I doubt that it was only to curse the position. Since Harry is in possesion of one of Voldemort's horcruxes-wouldn't the sword still respond to him either way? I mean we have that hint already w/basilisk obeying him. We know that Riddle could move objects w/his mind and have had multiple clues that Harry can do the same, I had a thread on this but can't remember which one right now...anyway I do think it's possible that Gryffindor's Sword is a horcrux and find it delightfully ironic that more and more things that Voldemort relies upon as his protections-are used against him by Harry:D

[Seeker615]

She did say the sorting hat was not a horcrux in one of her interviews.

As far as the sword... It could be but I would think Voldy would have to have had it in his possession in order to make a horcrux out of it.

[Vestral]

Sorry if someone else has posted this, but I seem to think that the twitch toward his pocket and his wand may have only been a threat of violence toward Dumbledore as if to challenge him. Does this make sense ? Sort of like walking into a saloon with a pistol in your pocket and out of nervousness about the other gunslingers around you, your hand twitches toward the pocket with the gun in it.

I don't see Tom walking into DD's office to make a Horcrux... perhaps to stun Dumbledore and steal a Gryffindor heirloom yes. Tom is arrogant enough to think that he could pull it off, but I don't think he would want to reveal his horcrux secret to DD by trying to make one right under his nose.

[Ana C.B.Rodrigues]

Sorry if someone else has posted this, but I seem to think that the twitch toward his pocket and his wand may have only been a threat of violence toward Dumbledore as if to challenge him. Does this make sense ? Sort of like walking into a saloon with a pistol in your pocket and out of nervousness about the other gunslingers around you, your hand twitches toward the pocket with the gun in it.

I don't see Tom walking into DD's office to make a Horcrux... perhaps to stun Dumbledore and steal a Gryffindor heirloom yes. Tom is arrogant enough to think that he could pull it off, but I don't think he would want to reveal his horcrux secret to DD by trying to make one right under his nose.
´

Well I think it seems pretty Voldemort like... He tried to defy Dumbledore... as we know he was mad because Dumbledore said that it was a shame that he couldn't make him feel as scared as he could do when he was in the orphanage...

[Fortescue]

I had seen it said before about this moment - so figured I would throw it out there for thoughts.
We debated about this episode and why Voldemort went to Dumbledore to make his request - I have to disagree with the general concensus but if you follow it, think on this.
Perhaps his only intention was to get into Dumbledore's office and to many powerful objects, including Gryffindor's sword - he keeps the pretense of applying for a job and then uses the time to perform whatever charm or spell he needed to for sealing a Horcrux right there in Dumbledore's office.
The quote above reads two ways - I can see the arguments coming so will prepare myself ... but just think, if he did seal a Horcrux in that office - how safe would it have been and also think of it from Voldemort's POV - the only person he ever feared keeping a piece of him safe and sound ... and having no idea about it!

Thoughts? :D

I could go into some wild spec on this one, Alz :)

The quote when Voldemort's hand twitched toward his wand, then he left; could that have been one of your favorite things? Did Voldemort have some type of time-turner, and just like with Slughorn's faulty attempt to cover up the fact he discussed Horcruxes with Riddle, could that have been a shoddy attempt on Voldemort's part to go back in time, or ahead in time, make a Horcrux in Dumbledore's very presence, just in a different time, and the movement we were shown was Voldemort's reappearance in the present as he was actually moving his hand away from the wand he had just put back in his pocket????? Did he make a Horcrux in that manner, without Dumbledore being any the wiser?

The only thing in Dumbledore's office that belonged to Gryffindor was the sword? Do you think that Harry would feel it if a bit of Voldemort's soul was in that sword? he didn't act as if it did in the Chamber, but then he was in the presence of Riddle, so we might not be able to connect the effect. Does anyone recall if he felt anything about the diary? Would he have felt something if he had held the locket in Grimmauld Place, if it does in fact contain a bit of Voldemort's soul?

[SnarkologyMajor]

Well that's a cool theory Forte!:D JKR gave just enough of a hint there to get wild didn't she? I certainly believe Riddle was up to something more than meets the eye and it adds up that it would be related to Gryffindor's sword-did he use time-travel? We haven't had other hints of him using a time-turner(I don't think?), but I do feel that Riddle has a strong connection w/time manuipulation via horcruxes. Hora means time and crux means cross=time/cross, so technically we do have canon for him defeating the bounderies of time. If diary teenager Tom would have succeeded in his plan-another teenage Tom would have been alive and kicking, 50 years later-in effect time traveling. If Voldemort wouldn't have had horcruxes then he wouldn't have been able to get another body 13 yrs. after being vanquished by Harry (which ties w/idea that Peter used a horcrux in order to acheive that body), once again in effect time-traveling. Everyone knows I have a theory that Voldemort is Salazar is The Dark Lord-through Merope's use of Salazar's locket, so if I can get that wild w/a theory, then I can see the validity of Tom using time manipulation in order to seal a horcrux in Dumbledore's office.

Can't get to my books right now(but will since this seems important) but I seem to recall that Harry was definately attracted to the diary horcrux. And conveniently JKR did not have Harry touch the locket at Grimmauld Place:rolleyes: My feeling is that Jo has given us clues that Voldemort's horcruxes are attracted to each other though as witnessed by Harry's scar/horcrux-In GOF Harry "visit's" Voldemort at the Riddle House,In OOTP Harry "visits" Voldemort in front of an age cracked mirror, to name a few. These "visits" have supposedly been explained by legilimency and Harry's "connection" (scar is horcrux) to Voldemort, but also seem to imply a natural attraction between pieces of Voldemort's soul. So even if Gryffindor's sword was Voldemort's horcrux, it would still answer to Harry because he has another piece of Voldemort's soul. Pretty wild eh?:D

[Fortescue]

I believe that particular scene with Voldemort and Dumbledore fits perfectly with my theory the more I ponder on it. If Voldemort went into the future, something we haven't seen done, (maybe for a reason,) then he came back to the present replacing his other self, what Harry saw with Voldemort's slight movement could have been simply a trick of the eye when he reappeared in Dumbledore's memory. Maybe the future Voldemort snuck in behind Dumbledore and made the Horcrux while the present Voldemort kept Dumbledore's attention. If Dumbledore didn't actually see the second Voldemort, it would not have been a part of his memory Harry saw in the Pensieve.

[Blanche A. McFusty]

That's an interesting theory that Voldemort actually was venturing into the future. Can a time turner do that? My instincts tell me that it doesn't. JKR does use the prophecies to delve into the future, though.

When Voldemort went to Dumbledore's office he had to know that there was no way he was going to be offered a job. He was so accustomed to finding ways to manipulate muggles and wizards, though, that he may have begun to adopt the hubris that seems to be his downfall in subsequent scenes. He may have thought that he really could persuade Dumbledore, through magic or rhetoric, that he was the right candidate for the DADA job.

Voldemort went there to make a horcrux, maybe, but I think he truly was into the DADA position. The sword is the quintessential Gryffindor item to become a horcrux. It couldn't have possibly have become one, though, because of Harry's ability to use it to defy Voldemort. I think Voldemort was in that office for a dual purpose. Nab a job and make a horcrux out of the sword. Both failed. The hand gesture was a reactionary effort to jinx the DADA position. I always felt that that movement was magic that he used to make sure no one ever succesfully held the position.

So, what is the Gryffindor item? I don't think there is one. I think it irritates Voldemort that there isn't, but I really don't think any exists.

[Alz]

I actually wondered if Fawkes was the target of Voldemort's horcux?
Think about it - something that always lives - I just wonder in the death sequence it would kill the soul fragement - yet we know phoenixes dont die ... so game on ..
And then to add to this - the phoenix supplied Voldemort's wand - and one other ... Harry's ...
I am thinking that the moment he twitched he sealed a horcrux right there - JKR made this comment am I pretty sure she was showing the use of his wand - bearing in mind Dumbledore was unaware of Riddle and Horcruxes back then - the thought probably didnt occur to him what was going on yet Harry saw it - I wonder if that is relevant??

[SnarkologyMajor]

Awesome idea Alz-and a little eerie, I've been pondering those 2 feathers in relation to H is an H and feel on the cusp of something. I think it is possible that Voldemort had Fawkes in mind and plays into the Basilisk and the Phoenix that I feel is central to the series....We already know the battle between the 2 in COS, and can't help but relate Fawkes to Godric Gryffindor and Basilisk to Slytherin. Keeping the cyclic time/ourobouros in mind-the final book seems like it is leading at least symbolically to the final battle between the two. I'm slightly frustrated, because I can't quite piece the clues together yet-but is Harry himself actually the Gryffindor "relic" that Tom wanted to make his final one with? If Fawkes the Phoenix ties directly to Godric Gryffindor then the fact that he only "gave"(did he do this w/intelligence and w/purpose?) 2 feathers and they are in Voldemort's and Harry's wand-has to be even bigger than explaining H is an H and priori incantatum. I'm going to try to put together canon on everything Fawkes has ever done-because he certainly doesn't behave as any animal(even magical) does he? Is there a possiblity that Voldemort's wandcore itself is what he turned into a horcrux-I mean JKR definately was giving a clue by drawing attention to Voldemort's wand. Like I said-I can't quite make this all fit yet, but what do you guys think? Maybe I'm just confunded:D lol

[Fortescue]

I actually wondered if Fawkes was the target of Voldemort's horcux?
Think about it - something that always lives - I just wonder in the death sequence it would kill the soul fragement - yet we know phoenixes dont die ... so game on ..
And then to add to this - the phoenix supplied Voldemort's wand - and one other ... Harry's ...
I am thinking that the moment he twitched he sealed a horcrux right there - JKR made this comment am I pretty sure she was showing the use of his wand - bearing in mind Dumbledore was unaware of Riddle and Horcruxes back then - the thought probably didnt occur to him what was going on yet Harry saw it - I wonder if that is relevant??

That would be another twist to the story and problem for Harry. Think about it, when Dumbledore died, Fawkes hit the road. Where did the Phoenix go? Could there be a bit of Voldemort's soul flying off into the sunset somewhere and now Harry has to go find that too?

[Blanche A. McFusty]

Awesome idea Alz-and a little eerie, I've been pondering those 2 feathers in relation to H is an H and feel on the cusp of something. I think it is possible that Voldemort had Fawkes in mind and plays into the Basilisk and the Phoenix that I feel is central to the series....We already know the battle between the 2 in COS, and can't help but relate Fawkes to Godric Gryffindor and Basilisk to Slytherin. Keeping the cyclic time/ourobouros in mind-the final book seems like it is leading at least symbolically to the final battle between the two. I'm slightly frustrated, because I can't quite piece the clues together yet-but is Harry himself actually the Gryffindor "relic" that Tom wanted to make his final one with? If Fawkes the Phoenix ties directly to Godric Gryffindor then the fact that he only "gave"(did he do this w/intelligence and w/purpose?) 2 feathers and they are in Voldemort's and Harry's wand-has to be even bigger than explaining H is an H and priori incantatum. I'm going to try to put together canon on everything Fawkes has ever done-because he certainly doesn't behave as any animal(even magical) does he? Is there a possiblity that Voldemort's wandcore itself is what he turned into a horcrux-I mean JKR definately was giving a clue by drawing attention to Voldemort's wand. Like I said-I can't quite make this all fit yet, but what do you guys think? Maybe I'm just confunded:D lol

I sure like this idea (the wand core) better than Fawkes, the phoenix, being the horcrux. When Fawkes showed up to "save" Harry in CoS Tom Riddle scoffs that the bird had come to his rescue. If Fawkes was one of his horcruxes I am sure there would have been a different reaction.

SM, you wrote that Fawkes was different from all of the other animals, including magical ones. I think that alludes to Fawkes' representation of the use of time and destiny in the books.

What I find myself questioning is whether the wand core would qualify as a Gryffindor item. I suppose if we knew more about Fawkes that might help answer that question.

[Fortescue]

Dumbledore said that the last Gryffindor item was the sword, but in reality, the Sorting Hat is also a Gryffindor item because it was Godric Gryffindor's hat. Gryffindor himself enchanted it to do the job of sorting, so I'd think that there are actually two bits of Gryffindor memorabilia left at Hogwarts. The sorting hat was a thousand years old and destined to sort students for the rest of Hogwarts existence. Voldemort might find that a handy and safe item to use as a Horcrux.

JKR said that Fawkes was Dumbledore's pet. No mention was ever made that the bird was at Hogwarts before Dumbledore, but I think I remember JKR stating that the bird was a new pet to Dumbledore, so I'd assume Dumbledore got the Phoenix from some place else. Also, the memory Harry saw in the Pensieve of Voldemort's visit to Dumbledore ten years after he left Hogwarts does not show that Fawkes was at there at Hogwarts at the time. No mention was made of a perch or the Phoenix. It would be nice to know exactly when Dumbledore acquired Fawkes. I think that answer alone will be very revealing. Maybe the bird once belonged to Grindelwald!!! :)

[Ana C.B.Rodrigues]

Yeah good poin ...where did Fawkes came from? That would be an interesting subject to discuss.
Anyway I don't think that Voldemort succeeded in transforming a Gryffindor item into an Horcrux... anyway Hogwarts Is really big, has large fields... we can suppose that the founders might have left much more in it than the several objects that are kept on Dumbledore's , Mcgonagall's Office...;)

[Alz]

I suppose it would fit the bill that Voldemort wanted to stretch that extra mile and go for one item from each house - cup (Huff), Locket (Sly) something for Ravenclaw and something of Gryffindor - heck if it was a flat choice I am pretty sure he would have felt more prestige sealing a Gryffindor item than Ravenclaw - bravery etc versus brains ... but then JKR did say the Ravenclaw's would have their day ... ummm

I still think that the little move towards the wand was significant - each time I hear or read it, just seems to leap at me .. of course for parity it could be that he thought for a second of challenging Dumbledore but figured better of it - that works but I think Dumbledore was sure the only relic of Gryffindor was in his office and that was the sword ... but then again we have heard argument that the sword wasnt there and wasnt around till Harry pulled it - so we continue the merry-go-round :D

[Ana C.B.Rodrigues]

The author left us in an empty land... we must try to find the diamonds by ourselves... the question is if we ar able to distinguish between true diamonds and false ones, between fool's gold(pirite) and gold itself...
That is... there must be a clue somewhere... any other object or artfact we forgot about. I think we are talking about objects that will have another job in the upcoming book.