Slughorn's eyes

[gumshoe]

This will probably be amongst the most obnoxious points raised on TFH, yet I can't help myself. :) (All quotes Scholastic first editions.)

Why in the world does JK introduce this new and fascinating character, Slughorn, and let us know from the beginning that he has green eyes, if she doesn't want us to consider the possibility that Harry has blood relatives other than Petunia and Dudley?
I posted this on another forum on which it was poorly received. I have no expectations that it will fare better anywhere else, but these points are interesting to think about, at the very least, and if it's decided that it's impossible that Slughorn is related to Harry, then we're still at the beginning wondering why he's got green eyes...

Slughorn's favoritism of Lily and Harry seemed over the top even for his standards -- and I think an adult teacher developing
a crush on a student would contradict canon; nepotism might not be out of the question, however. (All the while I note the possibility that this is just outrageously wild speculation.)

The relation of Slughorn to Lily couldn't be parent, unless he had an
affair with Mrs. Evans or if he had a relationship with Mrs. Evans
before Mr. Evans. Either of these scenarios would make Lily and
Petunia half-sisters. I think it's possible but not as likely as
grandfather.

Great-grandfather or uncle to Lily seems too far removed to be
pertinent to the plot; my hypothesis is grandfather to Lily. If he
was Lily's grandfather, for the bloodline thing to work, he'd have
had a Squib daughter who married either a Muggle or another Squib.
This child could have come from a marriage or indiscretion. I get
the impression that Slughorn didn't know Lily was his granddaughter
but suspected it.

Either the half-sib idea or the grandfather idea work as hypotheses
considering:
"there's more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye;"
the "no, no she's not a squib, but" quote about Petunia;
it allows for the Evanses to die natural Muggle deaths;
keeps Harry alone, if the information has been withheld in one shape
or another (Petunia and Slughorn, not likely Dumbledore);
is in line with the "Harry is a half-blood because of his mother's
grandparents" quote.


Evidence of the possibility of the hypothesis being true:

-- Two of Harry's dorm-mates have a family history that involves
deception/fractured truth: Seamus' mother didn't tell his father she
was a witch; Dean Thomas' father never told his wife he was a
wizard. Seamus' story is canon and Dean's is canon once removed,
being interview. These two backstories allow the possibility of
wizarding genes in Lily's bloodline.

-- JK's website, long quote about half-bloods:
"The expressions 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' have
been coined by people to whom these distinctions matter, and express
their originators' prejudices. As far as somebody like Lucius Malfoy
is concerned, for instance, a Muggle-born is as 'bad' as a Muggle.
Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of
his mother's grandparents.

"If you think this is far-fetched, look at some of the real charts the
Nazis used to show what constituted 'Aryan' or 'Jewish' blood. I saw
one in the Holocaust Museum in Washington when I had already devised
the 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' definitions, and was
chilled to see that the Nazis used precisely the same warped logic as
the Death Eaters. A single Jewish grandparent 'polluted' the blood,
according to their propaganda."

With the juxtaposition of the Nazi "reasoning" paragraph to the
first, the likely inference from this quote is that all it would take
was even one Muggle to "muddy" the bloodline. With Wizarding genes
being "dominant and resiliant" according to JK, the only way for Lily
to be Muggle-born and have Wizarding genes is if one of her birth
parents was a Squib (or if she wasn't actually Muggle-born at all,
which seems the less likely of the two possibilities).

-- It's also possible that the "more to Aunt Petunia than meets the
eye" and "no, no she is not a Squib, but" quotes refer to the fact
that either one of the Evans parents was a Squib or that Petunia and
Lily are half-sisters, because we know that JK has stated that
Petunia is not a Squib and that she is a Muggle. She is not a witch
pretending not to be, as there is no Ministry record of her (OOP,
Harry's hearing).

OOP 38, Harry looking at Petunia:
"She was looking at Harry as she had never looked at him before. And
all of a sudden, for the very first time in his life, Harry fully
appreciated that Aunt Petunia was his mother's sister. He could not
have said why this hit him so very powerfully at this moment. All he
knew was that hew was not the only person in the room who had an
inkling of what Lord Voldemort being back might mean. Aunt Petunia
had never in her life looked at him like that before. Her large,
pale eyes (so unlike her sister's) were not narrowed in dislike or
anger: They were wide and fearful. The furious pretense that Aunt
Petunia had maintained all Harry's life -- that there was no magic
and no world other than the world she inhabited with Uncle Vernon --
seemed to have fallen away."

This suggests that they could be half-sisters, being that their eyes
were so different; conversely, "large, pale eyes" sounds like
Slughorn whose eyes are described, for example, as "large, round"
(65) and "pale gooseberry" or pale green (67) in HBP.

-- The function of Aunt Marge in the plot seems to be to give us more
information about breeding and blood, especially in connection with
Petunia.

POA 25
"It's one of the basic rules of breeding. You see it all the time
with dogs. If there's something wrong with the bitch, there'll be
something wrong with the pup --"
POA 27
(indicating Harry) "This one's got a mean, runty look about him. You
get that with dogs. I had Coloned Fubster drown one last year.
Ratty little thing it was. Weak. Underbred...It all comes down to
blood, as I was saying the other day. Bad blood will out. Now, I'm
saying nothing against your family, Petunia -- but your sister was a
bad egg. They turn up in the best of families."

OOP 691
"They were all bullying him, Hermione, 'cause he's so
small!...Hermione, I couldn' leave him. See -- he's my brother!"
"Hagrid, when you say 'brother,' do you mean --?"
"Well, half-brother. Turns out me mother took up with another giant
when she left me dad, and she went and had Grawp here."

These quotes make me wonder about Petunia being a "runty" one or
about just the possibility of half-siblings in general.

-- The only humans in the series who have green eyes are Harry, Lily
and Slughorn. JK makes a point of directing us to Slughorn's eyes
repeatedly. (In Slughorn's introductory chapter, they are mentioned
8 times in 10 pages; same in Burial chapter.)

-- Slughorn has a canon history of keeping hidden from Dumbledore
information that he believes will cast him in a bad light. ("...keep
it quiet, what I've told -- that's to say, what we've discussed." 499
HBP -- plus his own withholding of the Horcrux conversation memory.)
It's been established elsewhere that Dumbledore doesn't know
everything. If there was an indiscretion involved in Slughorn being
related to Lily, he'd be inclined to keep it from Dumbledore. If
he'd been involved with a Muggle, he'd likely keep it from everyone,
like Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings. Likewise, if he was
involved with someone outside of marriage, he'd keep it secret.

-- Even if Dumbledore did know, Slughorn would probably be the last
person Harry would be sent to live with. It has been established
that Dumbledore has kept information from Harry and told him partial
truths. Part of Dumbledore's plan in keeping Harry alive was to also
keep him grounded, and isolating Harry from the Wizarding world was
an integral part of it:

PS 15
"These people will never understand him! He'll be famous -- a
legend..." (McG.)
(AD): "Exactly. It would be enough to turn any boy's head. Famous
before he can walk and talk! Famous for something he won't even
remember! Can't you see how much better off he'll be, growing up
away from all that until he's ready to take it?"

OOP 835-7
"Five years ago you arrived at Hogwarts, Harry, safe and whole, as I
had planned and intended. Well -- not quite whole. You had
suffered. I knew you would when I left you on your aunt and uncle's
doorstep. I knew I was condemning you to ten dark and difficult
years...You might ask -- and with good reason -- why it had to be
so. Why could some Wizarding family not have taken you in? Many
would have done so more than gladly, would have been honored and
delighted to raise you as a son. My answer is that my priority was
to keep you alive...Five years ago, then, you arrived at Hogwarts,
neither as happy nor as well nourished as I would have liked,
perhaps, yet alive and healthy. You were not a pampered little
prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the
circumstances."

-- If Slughorn was Harry's great-grandfather, he would likely believe
that concealing the memory from Dumbledore would protect Harry --
that revealing it to Dumbledore would put Harry in tremendous danger,
even more so if he thinks that Dumbledore suspects Harry of being a
Horcrux (when Dumbledore held out the hand with the ring, he was
waving it in the direction of Harry, so when Slughorn looked at the
ring, he'd be taking in Harry with the same glance).

-- Harry asks Slughorn to "be brave, like my mother" and tells him
that giving up the memory would be "a very brave and noble thing to
do." When Harry is looking into Slughorn's eyes at the end of this
Burial chapter, the Felix, unbeknownst to him, has worn off. It is something else that is at work here, not the Felix. I think he's being brave, for Harry's sake, for
Lily's sake.

-- Slughorn being Harry's great-grandfather doesn't negate the
aloneness of Harry.

JKR, Mugglenet/Leaky interview: "As a writer, it was more
interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather
ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I
mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course,
but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory:
Petunia and Lily's parents, normal Muggle death. James's parents were
elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains
the only child, very pampered, had-him-late-in-life-so-he's-an-extra-
treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding
terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. That's
as far as it goes. There's nothing serious or sinister about those
deaths. I just needed them out of the way so I killed them."

She doesn't say that Lily's grandparents have no importance to the
plot, only that all Harry's family has been ruthlessly disposed of.
Lily's parents are dead, they are not massively important to the
plot, but Lily's grandparents could have been disposed of in other
ways and could be important to the plot.

-- Lily could have been a candidate for Slytherin House, like Harry (The Sorting Hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin for a reason; perhaps he's a Horcrux, perhaps because it runs in his family...):
HBP 70-1
"Lily Evans. One of the brightest I ever taught. Vivacious, you
know. Charming girl. I used to tell her she ought to have been in
my House. Very cheeky answers I used to get back too...You'll be in
Griffindor like her, I suppose? Yes, it usually goes in families.
Not always, though...The whole Black family had been in my House, but
Sirius ended up in Griffindor!"

-- Slughorn notices something special about Lily; compare what he
says about Tom to what he says about Lily:
"Your mother was Muggle-born, of course. Couldn't believe it when I
found out. Thought she must have been pure-blood, she was so
good...You mustn't think I'm prejudiced! No, no, no! Haven't I just
said your mother was one of my all-time favorite students?" (70-71)

HBP 495
"Nonsense, couldn't be plainer you come from decent Wizarding stock,
abilities like yours. No, you'll go far, Tom, I've never been wrong
about a student yet."

The reason this whole idea came to me was because of the Slughorn/cave theory (another out-there one) -- I wondered if Dumbledore in the cave was Slughorn for a number of reasons, one of which was the eyes that were green in the reflected light from the basin. JK had made this point of telling us in Slughorn's introduction that he has green eyes, but subverting that information by referring to them as "pale gooseberry." She's never even told us Ron's eyecolor outside of an interview, and she's introducing someone and pointing out their eyes right away?! It seems there's a darned good reason in there somewhere, and if this is just too nutty to consider, perhaps there's another reason to discuss.

I'm open to contradiction and would (almost) hope for an alternative explanation, as this does seem to be a bit of a stretch. I trust the posters on this fantastic forum and feel at the very least this wild spec will be safe from rotten tomatoes.

gumshoe

[Alz]

LOL - *hides tomatoes* :D
Wow - you certainly did give it your all there didnt ya - I am impressed!

OK, so let me try looking at this given what you said ...
OK, one thing I do like a lot is the relevance of green eyes and the books - JKR isnt keeping it a secret that eyes have something to do with the series - although most stresses concern Harry's mothers Muggle born eyes.
I, of course, could come up with a thousand and one reasons to argue against it but would rather at least to start with work with what you have written here.
One interesting pickup you made was JKR's comments about his family and that the Grandparents arent important - this could have easily been said like they were dead also but she didnt - and we all know sometimes you have to look at what JKR doesnt say to see the importance!

I think your major strength in this thinking is the colour of the eyes and also pointing out that Dumbledore didnt want Harry growing up a little star in the wizarding world ...
Also - in the big scheme of things perhaps Petunia was a better blood bonder than Slughorn?
Also - given Voldemort's habit of killing whole families - you can maybe see why Slughorn keeps moving around ... if it transpires he is related he would also be a target ... and he wouldnt he in a hurry to let others know he is related.

[Vestral]

Good theory. I don't really think that Sluggy is Harry's grandfather, but you never know... my gut just tells me no.
But this does bring up an interesting tie in to the Eye of Horus again.

Perhaps there is something that wizards can learn... a spell of some sort... that allows them to alter their very own eyes.

What might that be you ask ? And why would you want to ?

I haven't a clue... unless it has something to do with the special powers of the
Eye of Horus... healing, resurrecting powers.

Perhaps Slughorn knows more than just potions and making Horcruxes...
maybe he taught his star pupil (get it... eye... pupil ?), the apple of his eye...
Lily Evans, how to make her own eyes into things of great magic ?
And she used those magical eyes to somehow protect Harry ?

What do you think ?
Again, great theory gumshoe.

[gumshoe]

Thank you, wonderful people, for taking me seriously about something that seems on the outside utterly ridiculous.
This was something that originated with that question -- "why does he have green eyes/is he related to Harry, maybe" -- and when I dropped it into a post elsewhere, someone challenged me to back it up ("Dobby has green eyes -- so is he related to Harry too?"). Really, with a comment like that, how was I to turn down the opportunity to prove my mettle?!

Yeah, good point, Alz -- if Harry was related to Slughorn (let's just go ahead and play as you suggest...), Dumbledore would recognize that Harry living with him would be akin to painting a giant target on Harry -- not what you want to do w/ someone you're hoping will grow up to be the only one who can vanquish the Dark Lord. And it was the pampered little prince passage that got me, too -- why would Dumbledore assume that a nice wizarding family would of necessity raise Harry in this manner? If Harry grew up with the Weasleys, for example, wouldn't he in the end be one of them and not any different?

Vestral, my gut tells me no, too, but it was interesting and surprising to discover I could actually make something of a case for it. I too think the Eye of Horus connection is relevant here whether or not the possibility exists of a familial relationship btw Harry/Lily/Slughorn. It hops out at me in a different way when I consider them being related, especially when I think of the family relationships in the Horus/Osiris myth associated with the Eye of Horus. Perhaps there is some magical quality to their eyes -- JK said once in an interview that Harry's eyes are his vulnerability -- and magic would probably be a more interesting explanation than an undisclosed relative.

Is this the direction we should take in wondering about his green eyes -- that perhaps he taught Lily something -- and is there something more concrete that would directly explain why his own eyes are green that we can discuss simultaneously?

Thanks for the feedback, guys.
gumshoe

[Vestral]

My speculation would be that they are related, but not by blood.
The uniqueness of their eyes is what relates them to each other.
Yes, Lily and Harry are mother and son, but I think Slughorn passed
something special to her, and she passed it to Harry.

Maybe that's why Sluggy's are described as being pale ?
Perhaps if you pass on whatever this magical eye quality is, your
eyes begin to fade in color intensity. Did Slughorn's eyes get
described in the pensieve memory ? Maybe they were green there,
and now they are pale gooseberry ?
Maybe he gave this "gift" of his to Lily, and when she gave it to Harry,
her eyes would have faded as well, but she was killed so we never
saw it.

I know it's a reach, but some of the wildest ideas have turned out some really
great ones.

Just stir the pot some more.

[Alz]

Wait - Vestral makes another great point there ...
What if it is what Slughorn taught Lily was that what she employed the night of the attack?
Can you see how that fits - he sets Riddle more steps down the path of Horcruxes - but also helps end it in some respects with teaching Lily something ... not saying he knew Voldemort would attack the Potters - but just would be kinda pretty that he started Voldemort down the path and also halted him ...

Green eyes are important - we know that - so why the heck not wild speculate the hell out of it - nothing wrong with wild spec and the worse that could happen - you could be RIGHT!

Slughorn seems sure that the DE's and Voldemort is after him - why the heck else would he spend his latter part of life moving around so much?
There is a reason he knows Voldemort wants him and I dont think it is just to do with the fact Horace might be the only person that knows Riddle was interested in Horcruxes!

[gumshoe]

Thanks again for the responses!

Slughorn's eyecolor was never noted as anything but "pale gooseberry." I think we'd have a hard time proving that his eyes became paler through some work in magic, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't consider it anyway, of course. My take on the paleness was something far more mundane, actually: Eye color can fade as a result of age.

Alz, your point about poetic justice is really compelling. Slughorn seems almost as culpable as Voldemort, as he's been in possession (for 50 years!) of this bit of information about Voldemort having multiple Horcruxes. However, I should note that since JK likely wouldn't drag in a new character -- only to demonstrate the point of remaining silent is equally evil as perpetrating the evil -- I think it's probable that Slughorn didn't make the connection btw the memory and Voldemort actually making Horcruxes at all until the summer pre-OoP, when Dumbledore figured out V had multiple Horcruxes and sought out Slughorn for memories on V and to try to talk him into coming back to Hogwarts. (Long sentence, sorry.)

Even with the possibility of Slughorn not connecting the dots being true, there still should be (or we would hope for) some poetic justice for the poor soul. He really does seem to me to be a benevolent, if not self-serving, person, someone who unwittingly assisted V in a small but crucial way -- and then didn't realize it.

That line of reasoning is one on which I think we could build more discussion of possible ways Slughorn may have helped Lily -- I know we've discussed elsewhere the possibility that Lily did more than just die 10 seconds before her baby would surely be murdered. And if anybody was in a position to teach her anything special, it'd be Slughorn for sure.

I won't dismiss the familial relationship idea entirely at this point. I've developed a sort of (probably pretty flimsy) story around this idea. Remember in GoF the portraits in the room off the entrance hall, where the champions gather? There was a portrait of a wizard with a walrus moustache, and next to him, whispering in his ear was none other than our pal, Violet. (So I'm thinking Violet, Lily, Petunia...) Just wondering if perhaps Slughorn is the professor we learn was married, perhaps to Violet, and perhaps maybe they had a Squib child, who was Lily's mother. Squint and you can see it. ;)

Oh, yeah, and it does seem there should be more reason for the DE's to be after Slughorn besides the memory -- how would they even know about it? Although I think he is indeed hiding from Dumbledore just as much as he is anyone else. But yeah, if he's related to Harry, might as well be a target painted on him, too, I suppose...Unless this point could be tied back into some special magic he gave Lily.

gumshoe

[Alz]

I suppose a little more weight is the depth and level Slughorn felt regret.
He wasnt responsible for Riddle knowing Horcruxes - just for giving more information on the subject. Yet he does take it all very personally - and as said above, was filling in some blanks enough to make him a great DE target?
The more I think on the more the idea of a link extending past the teacher/fav pupil feed we have been given is possible...

[Zaphod]

This must be one of the best and thoroughest introductions to a thread I have ever read, regardless of how "wildly speculating" it is ;) Gumshoe, you know i like your theories, and Slughorn (well, not nessecarily "Slughorn"), so you get absolutely no rotten tomatoes from me...

Since this is a "wild speculation forum", I think I'll just "wildly speculate" further on your great ideas.

JKR has said, when asked if there was someone else at Godric's Hollow the day Harry's parents were killed: "Well, there's an interesting question..." (or something like that)

What if it was Slughorn? Perhaps, for some reason trapped under an invisability cloke, just like Harry when DD got killed, incapable of doing anything. Fits perfectly to what "DD" says in the cave: "please no, not that etc...

Wild speculation:p

But... I have a feeling Slughorn could have (badly) erased more memories than just the one with Tom Riddle. It can perhaps be compared to an alcoholic who drinks to forget - Slughorn erases the memories he don't feel comfortable with (and he drinks too...) Perhaps his "paleness" in his eyes are sort of a metaphor to that he has been hiding a lot of bad memories for a long time? Or merely that he has erased his memories too often?


I believe there might be something to the great grandfather theory. If so, I believe DD knew of Slughorn's relation to Harry, and that this was the reason he could get Slughorn to Hogwarts, by bringing Harry - and that this was the reason he sent Harry to get the memory, as he was the only one who could get it. I think DD knew all along that Slughorn was Harry's great-grandfather, and that Slughorn "remembered" during the year...

As to DD's knowledge of how Merope Gaunt got Tom Riddle Sr. with the lovepotion, and the presentation of this in HBP (and that they got a child together) may allude (don't know if that's the right word) to Violet (the Violet, Lily. Petunia thing is amazing...) using Love potion on Slughorn. Slughorn seems to know quite a lot of the effects of love-potion... (Sorry for all the parantheses:p )

So, that's my wildly speculations on your ideas. What do you say?

Zaphod ;)

[gumshoe]

Hey, Zaphod, welcome to TFH, the best of the best -- thanks for your feedback and the compliment on the introduction -- was it my appropriate use of the word "obnoxious?!" :D

I thought of the possibility he was present at GH too, when my mind first spiraled off into Great-Granddad Slughorn flights-of-fancy. Really, does old Horace need an invisibilty cloak, if he can be an armchair? And I too tried to connect it to the cave speech, but I've got one hang-up about that -- didn't Slughorn seem surprised to hear Harry's story about Lily's death? More discussion on this should come.
BUT -- that aside for now -- IF he was there, he just SAT THERE. Talk about guilt. And just sat there when Voldemort left? Nah, could he have? Could his presence explain how Dumbledore knew what had happened and where to find Harry in the first place? Really, how would Dumbledore be able to direct Hagrid, if neither of them is the secret keeper (and Pettigrew wasn't dead, so the dead secret keeper argument doesn't apply). And -- Dumbledore knew what had happened before Sirius did. And -- how would Slughorn have been there anyway -- would Lily have brought him?
There are several possibilities for who was present, and of course I like looking at it fresh and imagining it's Slughorn, but it doesn't seem as likely as Wormtail, for example, who does end up with Voldemort's wand. Let's not drop this topic, though.

That's interesting that you bring up his pale eyes in conjunction with removal of memories -- Dumbledore's eyes are pale, too, and he's taken a lot out and stored it in the Pensieve -- although I always thought they were pale b/c he's old. Still, keep pushing the wild angle, because it does seem in character for Slughorn to remove memories he'd rather not have.

I think one of the hardest things to swallow for anyone reading this proposed theory is the possibility that Dumbledore would know Harry had a blood relative other than Petunia, and send him there saying she was the only one (a lie). I can see it if he thought it was necessary, however. He's manipulated and planned carefully all sorts of aspects of Harry's life. And I can see if he knew Slughorn was indeed a relation, he'd think Slughorn should be the last person to raise Harry (pampered little prince, target on his head, etc).

Oh boy, did I ever wonder about those "two perfect days." It's hard to imagine JK allowing a "love child" -- Riddle is probably as close to that as I can see her going, and he was born within a marriage, albeit a deceitful one. Violet does seem to like the wizard in the portrait. And since the name matches Lily and Petunia, it might suggest something other than indiscretion. Do you realize I did the math trying to figure out when those "two perfect days" occur in relation to Lily's life? I have notes somewhere in my house, and I couldn't come up with anything I could take into a courtroom (or any forum without a "wild spec" department!) -- but it was an interesting exercise.

To sum up, I think it's possible they're related. Does it "feel" right? On most levels, no. But we're stuck with the green eyes, and I can't see that being simply coincidental. There's another reason if this isn't it.

gumshoe
my next post will be #100

[Zaphod]

Hey Gumshoe :cool:

First, about the portrait: "A wizard with a walrus-mustache". Who else could it be but Slughorn? This must be a hint to him. Must.;) I've read some posts about the women with the flower-referances before, and I even think I saw a question concerning that in an interview with JKR. I think she said that linking Narcissa (Narcissa is a flower?) to Lilly and Petunia would be a mistake - it wasn't her intension. But maybe Violet was her intension? Should like to read that interview again...

What you say about Slughorn being a chair at GH would be more likely for him, yes. Why was he there? Perhaps he knew LV was coming (through his connections?) and wanted to prevent it, but chickened out? Doesn't seem quite right... :confused: By the way, have you tried comparing the description of the ruin of the house in GH (if ther is any) with the description of the mess in the scene of Slughorn's faked death? Could it be that it's a sign that Slughorn was at GH?


About Slughorn's reaction to Lilly's death (Lilly or Lily?): What if he acted? Doesn't it seem like he overacts a little bit?

The two perfect days: I would really like to hear your theory about that!


Zaphod *now preparing to read for my exams*:eek:

[gumshoe]

Zaphod, thanks for your feedback.

Looking for the quote about Narcissa and Lily not being related, I found some others that are also interesting. All from JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004.

queenmarion: I noticed in the Black Family tree that everyone is named after a constellation. Is this intentional? Does this have any bearing on the plot?
JK Rowling replies -> It's just one of those family traditions, although Narcissa breaks the trend. I had always thought of her as 'Narcissa' so I decided not to change her to match the others when I came up with their names. There's been a lot of speculation that she is in some way linked to Lily and Petunia, because of the flower theme, but I can put that rumour to rest here: she isn't related to them.

Sussie: Does Harry's eyecolour become important in the future books, like we've heard?
JK Rowling replies -> No comment!

Jami: Is Harry related to Godric Gryffindor?
JK Rowling replies -> People are always wondering who Harry might be related to. Maybe he is ;)

Rita: What happend to Harry's grandparents? Will we ever learn about them?
JK Rowling replies -> They're all dead and not particularly important to the story, although you will find out a little bit more.


I have a feeling that it's probably too far-fetched to guess that Slughorn might have been at Godric's Hollow, but maybe I'm not in the most adventurous mood at the moment?! I like the idea -- I just don't know what would tell us that. And didn't you get the impression that the death-story Harry relates came as a surprise? The only way I could see it is if indeed he was their disguised as something inanimate, and since everything was destroyed (it was everything, right?) I would imagine that would include Slughorn. And maybe even Lily and James' bodies, too? (Makes me think of Alz' article.)

I still think it's interesting to speculate about some magical connection, but it seems there'd have to be more gap-filling with that than with a familial connection. I'd love to hear more about this anyway, despite my hesitation.

Ultimately, I do think it's possible for them to be related by blood, but I wouldn't post it outside of wild spec anywhere, unless I felt like I'd gathered enough canon to stand my ground. If I reread the series, you can bet this will be something I'll be watching for.

gumshoe

[Alz]

Didnt later on in the MN interviews JKR say that Harry wasnt related to GG?
I guess her comments on Grandparents might put to bed if Slughorn was a grandparent ...??

I still get the feeling there was more people present that night in GH that what we are lead to believe.
I wonder if Dumbledore has a selection of people watching the place and maybe Slugorn agreed - perhaps Dumbledore played to Slughorn's feelings for Lily?
Does sound a bit out there mind you - I still feel Snape was the most likely candidate - he would know that Voldemort was going to pounce on his information ... OT I know :rolleyes:

[woznr13]

wow, great stuff gumshoe. i stumbled upon a blog on possible theories on the seventh book, and i must say, while some are far fetched, they definitely have piqued my interest, as your theory has. i can definitely see your reasoning behind your theories, and, while it may be out there, it does make sense in the way you presented it. i must say, i'm reading through goblet of fire (again), and i might just have to pick up HBP again (for the umpteenth time), and maybe i can pick up on some things to be able to make a couple of guesses. again, good stuff gumshoe (and everyone, for that matter), and i'm looking forward to checkin out this board a bit more in depth.

[gumshoe]

woznr13, welcome to TFH, it's a really sharp forum. Perhaps you can direct us to the blog? Sounds interesting.

Alz, it's not OT in my opinion to speculate that there might be a likelier candidate to have been present at GH -- it would help clarify that angle of this discussion, push it in one direction or another. So I welcome comments on that here, if I can be so bold.

I'm familiar with the quote that he's not related to Godric Griffindor. In what context do you bring it up here? I didn't follow you.
It's the business about Harry's grandparents not being relevant that intrigues me, especially when connected up with the explication about "Mudbloods" on her website. This is where I see the wiggle-room to speculate that Slughorn is perhaps Lily's grandfather (not father). And I think it'd be very interesting if Harry's Slytherin connection was by blood. If anybody thinks Harry isn't a Horcrux, there's still this issue to deal with -- the Sorting Hat's inclination to put him in Slytherin and some of his more Slytherin qualities, especially as evinced in Hagrid's hut when he gets the memory (and his unusual connection with Voldemort, of course ;) ).

Also, most of the interview questions we're familiar with deal with the significance of Harry having Lily's eyes, but the one I quoted upthread piqued my interest because it specifically asked about the color.

gumshoe

[Alz]

Sorry - the GG thing was in response to one of the quotes you put above when JKR continued with her Red Herring :p

JKR did say that Harry's Grandparents were dead - as was all his family.
Once again not to OT - but does sound a lot like the Bones, Mckinnons and Prewetts ... :D
But you are right on the observation - they are 'gone' but not out of the picture - ergo we didnt see anything up till and past HBP - so maybe whatever the information is would be too much of a clue to disclose earlier - they may not be important but something is in conjuction with them - enough of a clue to be held right to the end maybe?

[gumshoe]

Alz,
Okay, I see where you were coming from now -- I didn't get it before. I used the quote because of "people are always wondering who he's related to" -- I'm definitely aware he's not related to Godric Griffindor.

I thought she said his grandparents were dead and she'd "rather ruthlessly disposed" of all of his family -- perhaps a minor distinction, but one that could make a difference, especially if she's trying to bury a clue. Is there an interview I'm not aware of that says every person he's related to is actually dead, except for Petunia and Dudley? Because, yes, as you say, if it was important that there was one family member alive, and that information needed to be kept until the end -- she'd subvert it for sure, I'd think. If the COLOR of his eyes is important, it might indicate that looking for a magical quality isn't going to lead us to the answer.

Perhaps an unknown family member is a more mundane explanation than magic, but then again, the theme of family -- lineage as well as "made" family, via Harry's associations -- has been critical to the series. People he's related to have treated him like dirt, and friends have accepted him as family. Hagrid's brother is family and thus Hagrid will do anything for him, despite the enormous difficulties inherent -- and we can see the benefit of that choice in that tiny moment Grawp is "onstage" in HBP. Marge talks about breeding and getting rid of the runty ones, when we have a vivid picture of not-so-runty Dudley sitting right there as a counter-point, as well as Petunia, who as a more runty one herself seems to lack the beauty and magical qualities of her sister. The Weasleys have taken Harry in and treated him as one of their own, while Percy has disassociated himself entirely from his family. Ron and Hermione are very nearly Harry's own brother and sister, without any blood relation required.

What would it benefit the series to have Slughorn be a family member to Harry, we might wonder? Perhaps just knowing that it wasn't a fluke that he ended up part of this magical world, or that he came by his Slytherin-ness honestly, by descent (I know it contradicts the Harrycrux theory but I think it's worth a moment's consideration anyway). He'd be an individual who could connect him to his roots in a way that nobody's been able to do before, not Petunia or Dumbledore, both of whom really should have. (Dumbledore's speech in "Will and Won't" is interesting in this regard -- think of the ways he himself has failed Harry.) I don't think I'd foresee any "running through a field of daisies" kind of moment for them, but with Dumbledore gone (whether or not he really died on the tower, I feel certain he must be dead by the end of the series), having someone to act as a connection to his roots would be important, someone who was related to him who treated him like family and like a friend -- and I could see both Harry and Slughorn having a lot to learn in this regard. This is just off the top of my head, so I'm sure it could affect the story -- positively or negatively -- in other ways I haven't thought of.

If she didn't want us to consider the possibility of family, perhaps she'd have chosen "chestnut," or "amber," or "steel blue" as Slughorn's eyecolor, anything instead of "pale gooseberry." Or maybe the whole intent was to nudge us to the cave-switch theory and the eyes that were green from the reflected light of the basin. But why green at all? Would it be reasonable to assume it's a Flint, after she's spent umpteen years with this series? "Oops, maybe I should have used a different color for Slughorn's eyes?" Unless, yes, it's all a red herring, just designed to allow creative, obsessive minds something to chew on for a few years. I wouldn't be surprised -- those gum wrappers occupied a lot of my brainspace, just to turn out to be a dead end.

Anyhoo. If there is an interview where she states that every person he's related to outside of the Dursleys is actually dead, I want to know about it, so I don't spend two years barking up the wrong trees!

gumshoe

[Zaphod]

I don't think there's such an interview, but I,m not 100% certain. But that would be a really good question to ask her: "Has Harry absolutely no living blood-relations except the Dursley's?" Wonder how she would have answered on that.

The importance of Harry's green eyes, I believe could have more meanings than just one, and it would be typical JKR to connect several layers of meaning to a certain name, thing, concept etc... For instance the name Sirius Black, would at first, when he was supposed to be evil, be associated with a "dark" personality. Then, after figuring out that he is innocent, and that he is really a good guy, the name Sirius would be more understandable - as the "light" of Harry, or something. Then, in OOTP, we get to know Sirius a little better, and understand that his personality in fact might be a little bit dark (Black) - but now, not in an "evil" way, but perhaps more in a "depressed" way, both due to his past and his lonelyness at Grimauld's place. Then, it turns out that his name also probably predicted his death - first of all the "black" thing, but also the transitions from "the brightest light in the sky" (Sirius) to abscence of light or darkness (Black) - Life and death.

My interpretations, and maybe a little bit of topic;) , but still perhaps relevant since the name and colour "Black" is seemingly used in different ways. We know Green is a colour actually mostly associated with bad things in the books - The unforgivable curses, the coulour of Slytherin (the bad seeds) - but yet, both Harry and his mother had Green eyes (and Dobby and Slughorn). We know Harry had some of Voldemort's power transmitted to him ("Slytherin-power"), but his eye-colour was inherited from Lily, and she didn't have such power in her (did she?), so the eyecolour can not be connected to Slytherin via the failed AK, it has to be through family bloodline, if there actually is such a connection. My point (I think) is that the eye colour green could be a literary means to show Harry's connection to Voldemort, and the slytherin-powers he transmitted to Harry - but not likely, since Lily also had green eyes. After HBP, however, it seems like one could connect him to Slytherin in another way - through blood-relations (if the grand-father theory is correct)... Hence, there could be several meanings connected to Harry's green eyes, both the goodness and love he got from his mother, but perhaps also the bad things from Slytherin.

[gumshoe]

Zaphod,
First I have to say that it's dawned on me, reading your post, that perhaps the Harry as a Horcrux theory is a red herring. I hate to say that, because I've read some really persuasive arguments on that and feel mostly convinced it must be so. But it's possible that she's set us up to be concluding it, only to discover the reason Harry's so "Slytherinish" is his mother's blood. Interesting idea, anyway, even if it turns out to be false.
And yes, much in the series that's associated with green has been bad -- except green eyes, of course. I read a fun discussion on another forum on the colors and the possibilities regarding foreshadowing.
There's also the Alchemy theory, if you're familiar with that. Sirius being Black is the precursor to the death of Dumbledore (Albus, being "white") and suggests that Rubeus Hagrid perhaps is next. There's lots more on that, more I'm not really familiar with, although I did read the Alchemical Wedding a year or two ago, surprisingly enough.

Finally, one thing that I must say in defense of the possibility that Slughorn might have been the one at Godric's Hollow: I was reading on another forum today and a tiny question in a bigger post caught my eye. The poster wondered how did Dumbledore know how to find Harry, something I've wondered as perhaps many of us have, but then he also wondered how did Dumbledore know Lily died to save Harry...Really, how DID he know THAT part? I've always thought the likeliest explanation for the person who was there was Wormtail -- but he wouldn't have had an opportunity to relate that story to Dumbledore, would he? Unles it was Snape, and that's why Dumbledore trusts him -- he saw the murder...? So do you think Slughorn could fit after all? Does that support the familial relationship line of questioning or is it tangental? Something to think about, at least.

gumshoe

[Zaphod]

Rubeus being derived from rubeo, meaning red? I think I read something like that somewhere - first black, then white, then red, is a following order in Alchymi or something. Well, that would be sad. If Hagrid was to die, I would be less optimistic about him coming back, since he is so bad at magic. Besides, remember the "flight of the Prince"? Harry thaught: "Oh no, not Hagrid too..." Foreshadowing? Sad:(

Anyway... I would guess Snape being at GH and telling Dumbledore what happened would be a good reason for DD to trust Snape. But I somehow have a feeling that it was something else (not the prophecy either...). I guess DD could have figured it out by himself, as the cleverer-than-most man he is. Maybe he thaught; "Hmmm... Harry survived, and Voldemort is gone... What might have happened here? Is there perhaps some ancient magic in use?";) But still, the details: How did he know that James died before Lily? And how did he know that James's death wasn't the protective one? (Isn't love from fathers as powerful as love from mothers?) Maybe there are some rules about the love-protection we don't know about... Still, if there was someone else present at GH who told DD what happened, I would agree that the most likely persons would be Snape or Slughorn.

By the way -- do you think Snape made the potion in the cave?

Zaphod:cool:

[gumshoe]

Yes, you got the Alchemy stuff right, Zaphod. I'm no expert, though. It's a really interesting concept and one I wouldn't be surprised she was using, especially when one considers the Philosopher's Stone/Elixir of Life launches the series. Still, that doesn't bode well for the Dumbledore isn't dead theorizing, nor for Hagrid, does it.

Here's an odd one I just ran across, and I don't recall seeing it here: Someone on another forum speculated that Snape is Voldemort's son? (Illegitimate maybe? Their post wasn't clear.) If that line of reasoning seemed provable, I suppose it would make more sense to think Snape wouldn't have to be the one at GH and would leave room for Slughorn to have been. Ultimately, I don't think Slughorn would have had to have been at GH to have been related.

My time's run out before I'm done -- more later.
gumshoe

[Alz]

Not to digress on eyes - but I always found it strange that both Hagrid and Snape both have black eyes ... yet I cannot see a family link there :p
The question of how such detail emerged from the fateful night is the most compelling evidence someone else was there ... and yeah people have argued and debated that one a great deal!
I'm sure someone once asked if Harry's eyes have always been green - not sure if that was in a forum or to JKR - but that would be a good question for her I think.
There is something more to the green eyes - especially between Lily and Harry if all else fails ... but still is very compelling that Slughorn also share them.
Given as noted that green in the books associates Slytherin and the darker side of magic - you cant help but feel there is a blatent clue to this!

[gumshoe]

The question of Slughorn's eyes has been addressed in another forum in a new way. A poster doubted that they were green, suggesting they were grey. I did some poking around on the internet, looking up "gooseberry eyed," whereas before, several months ago, all I'd looked up was "gooseberry." While I disagree with that poster that his eyecolor is intended to be grey, I did find some interesting stuff.

Apparently, the term "gooseberry-eyed" is a reference to someone who is recognizable as having poor eyesight -- there's a book I'd love to read once I get back to the stack on my bedside table: It's called "The Moonstone," by Wilkie Collins (remember Wilkie Twycross?) -- in it, there's a character nicknamed "Gooseberry," because of his eyes, but the explanation as to how that applies isn't clear. I read several vague references in online thesaurus entries that include "gooseberry-eyed" under poor eyesight, but can't get more specific than that.

However, it does add some doubt to my certainty that he's got green eyes. Darn it. I'll not toss in the towel just yet, but I must admit, "The Moonstone" seems it could almost be a more relevant connection than green eyes.

gumshoe