Self Destruction?

[Alz]

Ok - this is a side digression but interested in thoughts because it links into other debates we are having ...

Can the person that places his soul into another thing or object also destroy that person/object and thus a piece of his own soul?
I wonder what the effects of the magic used to seal the horcrux would react if the same person tried to destroy it ...

We all know too well what happened that night and that things happened that were not suppose to - I wonder if it is linked to this idea?

[SnarkologyMajor]

I'm not sure what you're driving at Alz, are you suggesting Voldemort may not care if he loses a horcrux by killing Harry?

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I don't know that it would make a difference who destroyed a horcrux. Destroyed is destroyed. I would say that it would if anything be easier for the person who made the horcrux to be the one to destroy it, since they would know how to undo what ever protection may have been enacted. Typicaly, there would be no reason for anyone to want to destroy their own horcrux. Other than the suposition that Harry may be a horcrux of Voldemort's, the only other instance I can immagine why someone would want to destroy their own horcrux is if someone who had created one, had become so tired of living and wished to finaly have a chance to die; such as a terible illness or extreme unrelievable pain. I can't honestly see why there would be any otherwise unforseen reprocutions in destroying your own horcrux.

The question would be for me, could you do it without destroying the bit of soul, and could that bit be replaced elsewhere or rejoined with the orriginal. Then, if destroying the horcrux did indeed mean killing another person in the process, would that killing allow the killer to again divide his soul to creat another horcrux in it's place? I would say only JKR knows for sure!:D

[Alz]

Ok - let me try and clarify.
Killing rips the soul - that isnt normal - but then to take your soul and place it in something else requires a spell - ie magic.
The idea of the spell or whatever that creates a Horcrux is to put part of the soul into something else - thus it is a spell or charm that is designed to keep someone alive.
My question is - could the person that split his/her soul be capable of destroying it - or would the magic used to seal it react in a strange way?
Sure - someone else comes along and destroys it - your bad luck for not keeping it safe - but if you were to destroy a piece of your own soul - what would happen?
I mean - your soul is your essence - but when mixed with magic as well - I just wonder is Voldemort capable of say destroying a horcrux - killing Harry maybe?
I wonder if the reason we got all priori incantem in GoF might have been a reaction to when someone tries to destroy their own soul piece - the same could be said of the fateful night...
The power he knows not ... we all speculate love ... could be a horcrux fragment ...
Any clearer?
Anyone else understand what I mean and can maybe phrase it better?

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I understand what you're saying Alz. When someone other than Voldemort destroyed his horcruxes, Voldemort aparently had no sense of it. He had no "feelings" or "insight" that something tragic had occured. So, how might that change if Voldemort wanted to destroy his own horcrux himself, ie Harry. Although I really don't see why there would be a difference. . .since horcruxes are created to maintain life, I don't think that there would be a safeguard included in the spell to prevent the creator from destroying what he had created. Possibly the only thing I can immagine, would be that it just wouldn't work. like maybe shooting blanks. You cast a spell to destroy something, and nothing happens. The simple solution to that would be to simply get one of your faithful folowers to do the destroying for you. I'm sure someone would hapily oblige.

When the horcrux creating spell was created, I think the thought of what might be equated to suicide wouldn't have even been a consideration to include in the spell, the purpose of creating the spell after all is to sustain life. I suppose if anything, if the original creator had considered the option, it would have been made simpler for the horcrux creator to destroy it himself, if that is what he truly wished.

[SnarkologyMajor]

Well, I wonder what would happen, if say, someone accidentally pushed Harry off the top of a very high cliff(teehee). I think that the prophecy not only means that either must die at the hand of the other, but that neither can die in a conventional sense. We know that Voldemort has attempted to kill Harry at least four times (not including when he was a baby) unsuccessfully, and the whole point of priori incantantum(sp) was to show that they cannot use their wands against each other. Of course Harry was able to destroy the diary horcrux which has me a bit confused, maybe it is like the mirror of erised and you can only destroy it when you are unaware of what it is? Or it is related to the venom of the basilisk? We know that Salazar created the basilisk, so it could be relevant.

As far as the night at Godric's Hollow goes, I can't imagine that Voldemort would have wanted to destroy a horcrux but I think I can follow what your hinting at. Perhaps when Voldemort murdered Lily (not his intention) and then Harry, the magic used to transfer part of his soul had a reverse effect and made things go haywire? I still think there's a possibility that someone could have tampered with whatever object/relic Voldemort intended to use as a horcrux with Harry's murder. I'm just guessing here, but isn't it possible someone could have transfigured it? Used a switching spell? A deflecting spell? The way the house was left in ruins seems to imply any number of spells ricocheting, maybe looking for another place for his horcrux? I hope that made sense! Snape seems like a pretty good candidate if we go by Dumbledore's satement-

US HBP pg. 549 "You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry.
I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned-"

When she cuts something off abruptly like that I always get more alert!

[Alz]

Yah now you are both getting it ...
I think the reason Voldemort is having issues killing Harry is because it would be like killing part of his own soul ...
But even without the Harry is a Horcrux spin - just as a theory it would be like commiting partial suicide ... but the part you are killing is protected to keep you alive - it is almost cyclic once again if you think about it ...
Horcrux is suppose to cheat your own death - if you try and destroy your own piece of soul - that is designed to keep you alive - what would the effect be?
IMHO - I dont think you can destroy your own piece of soul - it just seems to defy all laws of nature and even magic - to destroy something that is part of you that was designed to keep you alive ...

[SnarkologyMajor]

Alz, I think I'm following your train of thought here(maybe?) By creating a horcrux, you create a metaphorical Ouroboros, therefore you would be unable to destroy the very thing which set it into motion. So even if Voldemort realized somehow that he is trapped in a never-ending quest for immortality, would he realize that he actually achieved it but doesn't know it? He creates a loop in which he is immortal but never has knowledge of it, thereby always chasing the unachievable...Wow, that's confusing! What if, because of Harry, the circle is now about destroying his horcruxes, trying to stop the whole thing, but because of the paradox, it's just a different tail to chase?Trying to destroy your own horcrux is kind of an oxymoron. Did that make any sense at all? I may have confused the matter more! What are your thoughts on Harry's ability to end it? Voldemort will be destroyed in the end, I mean, he has to or what is the point?

[Alz]

That is my point exactly!
Voldemort has attained what he wanted but doesnt realise it - the one to defeat him is also going to re-birth him each time. He is hell bent on killing Harry - but doesnt realise what he is dealing with.. sorry this is more H is a H thing ...
But in overall terms and outside of H is a H - I think his horcrux spell would work against him if he tried to commit partial sucide - and by killing a piece of his soul he would be doing just that.
The magic is just that - we know that the properties of it allows you to be immortal but I feel the magic can also work against you if you try and destroy what you created.
Thus I dont think Voldemort is capable of destroying a Horcrux - this means IF as we have speculated, he is going to have a rough time with Harry ... I think that is why there is a prophecy because no-one has ever tried to destroy thier own horcruxes and thus this has spawned a unique situation that means each time he tried strange things happen with magic - like priori incantem ...

[SnarkologyMajor]

Or even Avada Kedavra, say on baby Harry?;)

[Alz]

LOL - yeah kind of ... well Ok exactly!
I'm trying to give some neutral ground on H is a H theory in this debate but of course would not try and cover up the fact it fits in quite nicely as well with that debate ...
I'm trying to piece together why strange things happen when he gets to close to Harry - why magic seems to defy him - and he is someone that does have a very good grasp on it ...
I suppose I wanted to explore why magic would conspire against him and thus the premise was created ... he isnt able to destroy his own soul ... because it has been protected and also extracted by magic to prevent his death ..

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I get what you are saying Alz, but there have been other reasons for the "luck" harry has had. in SS/PS it was that Voldemort/Quirrel couldn't touch him, in CoS, it was just the young riddle's egotism that caused him to make a mistake in drawing Harry there before he had "become" in GoF, again his ego got in his way. He was so sure of himself that he wanted to toy with Harry. He could have easily finished it while Harry was tied up, but wanted to "show" the DE's that he could defeat the boy who lived, and even then, did he fire the AK first. . . NO! He "played" with him, teasing him. then yes "luck" stepped in and made a way for Harry's escape, but pure chance is all that was. OotP, Harry had DD's protection placing the statue head in front of him, otherwise V would have had him then. Just as Harry said when they wanted him to lead the DA, his encounters that he has survived weren't from skill (although he does seem to be exceptional in DADA) He just got lucky.

I don't think that Voldemort's soul in him could cause that type of luck. I think if that were the case, Voldemort would actualy have to have a spell hit Harry before the "reaction" would be effective. . . possibly, (but I'm not admiting to anything) the initial incident when the AK bounced off, is the only circumstance that has reacted as a horcrux might that is being attacked by its maker. But, that circumstance has been explained in the books as being because of Lily's sacrifice.

I still can't get past the belief that it would be easier for a horcruxe's maker to destroy it than any other, because the reason would stand that if the creator wished to destroy his own soul, that that wold be his own choice.

[Alz]

Umm - but once again you need to look at this as magic - magic causes the effect that Voldemort wants - ergo the magic is controlling the transaction. The premise of the magical transaction is to sustain life outside of the normal realms ... it would suggest to me the magic is in control once Voldemort utters the words or swings his wand ...
I'm just saying (badly) that in order for Voldemort to undo what he did - is there another spell that rids the object of the horcrux?
It took magic to create it - can that magic be undone by the caster?

[gumshoe]

First off, forgive the fuzzy writing of my response; I promise I did read the whole thread -- it's just such a tricky topic!

And am I correct in assuming that the premise here is not that Voldemort would WANT to destroy his Horcrux(es), per se, but rather a discussion of what might happen if he tried to destroy one (without realizing what he was doing)? There was the point (from SnarkologyMajor) that speculated he might wish to stop the cycle, but I don't see it as being with the intent to destroy himself...

Anyway. Perhaps there's a parallel here to the Unbreakable Vow. The Vow, once it's sealed, has authority over the situation. If the same is true of a Horcrux, it would stand to reason there'd be an internal paradox with destroying your own Horcrux: If the purpose of a Horcrux is to keep you alive, how CAN you destroy it? So, I think I'm following the Ouroboros connection here, yes?

I also think that if Voldemort made a Horcrux of Harry, he wouldn't want to destroy it; that if it happened, it must have been inadvertent, and he must not have realized it until the MoM battle in OoP.

[SnarkologyMajor]

Yes, I'm pretty convinced that Voldemort was unaware that Harry is in possesion of one of his horcruxes until the MoM battle. Isn't it ironic that everytime the cycle is repeated, everytime Voldemort tries to kill Harry (destroy part of himself too), he seems to get weaker while Harry gets stronger...I mean he keeps handing Harry the weapons he needs. Maybe that's part of the key?

[Alz]

Like the thinking gumshoe - I think it is possible it acts like the UV - once you enter into it, cannot be broken without concequence ... and this I think applies to someone trying to attack or destroy their own horcruxes.
Also like Snark's comments about each time Voldemort attacks Harry he is indeed weakening himself and also making Harry stronger - I think this just goes to show the beauty of the situation ... once again like a phoenix rising from the ashes

[Sirius Potter Fan]

:confused: So. . .then. . . All Harry would need to do is to sit and let Voldemort attack him a few more times, then Voldemort would be so weak that Harry can just easily push him over????

[Alz]

Umm - I suppose simplified yes!
Voldemort unaware in H is a H theory will keep trying to attack his own soul fragment/horcrux - in doing so he is experiencing strange phenomenon and also making Harry/ his own horcrux more powerful.
Even if Harry isn't a Horcrux - I still wonder the same principle - what is the physical ramifications when you try and commit partial suicide and destroy a magic enable object that tries to save you?

[Alz]

OK - just wanted to add another view or thought on this ... something I read while interview hunting ...

If a person commited suicide, would they be able to seal a horcrux with their death?
Is there another charm of spell you can do that requires killing or death but instead of keeping you alive - you create an almost transplanted horcrux for someone else?
i.e. your death helps keep someone else alive, you still seal your soul in an object but not for the means of keeping you alive but keeping them alive?

[SnarkologyMajor]

I think you're hinting at Lily?:D That seems like a good idea and even though I think Slughorn said "kill" not "murder"-the act of splitting your soul is Dark Magic and doesn't seem like something you could/would do out of an act of Love. Of course suicide wouldn't be an act of love would it? I'm confused! Can you place a whole soul in an object? Or is that a stupid question..:o

[Alz]

The act of killing someone just so you can live longer is evil - what if the motivation was to try all you could to keep someone alive?
Even outside the obvious links I was making to Lily - is the premise still sound?
Could a suicide be used to seal soul?
As far as Lily - she had no idea what she did would do what it did - but I just wonder of the principles of death and soul protection extend outside of just horcruxes.

[secret seeker]

Like to confuse us simpletons dont you.
Would a person be able to kill themselves if they hated themselves enough to want to die, pointed their own wand at themselves and did avada kedvra?.
The person who created a horcrux would be able to destroy it, because how would you stop the soul fragment from being " earth-bound "?. If the piece of soul is in a horcrux, and it gets destroyed, it couldnt possibly go back to the person who made it, it would transcend? surely.
Or am I just confused with you Rocket scientists?.
I think the only reason "priori incantatem" worked was not just because of the wands, but because the two SPELLS connected, when Riddle did "crucio" on Harry that worked just fine, didnt it?.

[Alz]

I speculated the reason Voldemort had it all blow up in his face was because maybe if you try and attack your own horcrux - it backfires ...
After all - why would you attack and destroy something that is suppose to remain safe and keep you alive ... it would almost be like a paradox once again right?
If something is suppose to keep you alive, if you kill it, will you not be killing yourself?

[secret seeker]

I suppose, yes, you would be. More like destroying a tool that aids your life, unless it was a sole Horcrux, in which case if you did destroy your only Horcrux you still wouldnt die because you would have life inside you.
I guess the real question is; if you destroy a piece of your own soul, ( Horcrux encased or not ) would you class it as suicide?.
I would.

[Alz]

See I speculate that could be a reason we had the wierd effects we are lead to believe happened that night.
It just appeared an interesting thought - could the bearer of a soul portion destroy his own horcrux - since in effect the horcrux sustains life.
It is akin to committing suicide in some respects - you try and take your own life - but the effects of a horcrux is to sustain your life - so what would the effect be?
Could it cause a backfire on an AK?

[cagedcactus]

Bingo.... :)
You probably got it right in your last statement ALZ.....
I think you surely could destroy your own horcrux, if you destroyed the vessel that carried it. Granted that you didnt use AK.
I think that anyone could destroy it just like Voldemort. The reason all these horcruxes are tough to destroy is because not only they contain Voldemort's souls, but also his protective curses.
I also agree with you when you say that on that fateful night, Voldemort could have been blasted off, because he tried to AK his own unintentional Horcrux. How unintentional? Lily could explain...... couldnt she? :eek:

[secret seeker]

Yeah, but I thought it was Lilys sacrifice that sustained Harrys life?
If Voldemort did un-intentionly destroy his own horcrux, what a paradox that would be!.:confused:
P.S. thanks for the rep point, whoever you are?!.

[Alz]

I think Lily's sacrifice gave Harry powers that were sealed when Dumbledore placed him with Petunia ...
It is 'thought' that the sacrifice she made was what caused the backfired spell - well once again that is still debatable - but we do know the protection she gave Harry was sealed later at Petunia's ...

See it is paradoxical in nature this question - to destroy something that you have created to sustain life - what would be the side effect - if any?
That is my theory - and maybe account for what we saw happen that night - heck swiss cheese like all theories I know - but stil worthy of thoughts?
I do wonder thou - always say you should never participate in your own suicide!