View Full Version : Why did Snape kill Dumbledore?
Fortescue
09-12-2005, 14:17
We have all kinds of threads about Snape and what spell he used, is he good or evil and ideas that Dumbledore sacrificed himself for some unknown to us reason etc.etc.etc.
I want to hear everyone's ideas why did Snape kill Dumbledore. Death is a very radical step to take simply to control the outcome of a certain event.
Why did Snape kill Dumbledore? Be as broad as you like with your answer please! :D
SnarkologyMajor
10-12-2005, 01:55
What a brilliant question:cool:! Seemingly innocent, yet controversial at the same time:D . Well this could cause an uproar, but I don't think Snape killed Dumbledore! Hang on! Let me explain my reasoning (I could be very wrong). My feeling here was that Dumbledore was begging (since when does he beg?) Snape with his very last breath and that by the time Snape used Avada Kedavra Dumbledore was already gone. To me this explains the strange circumstances of the curse itself, there was only Dumbedore's shell left, his soul had already departed. If Dumbledore trusted Snape (which we are told over and over) wouldn't he have expected Snape to try and save him? Yet he didn't give Snape the opportunity to do anything. Even with far too many events conspiring against Dumbledore that night, and even if Snape and Dumbledore had some sort of plan, I still contend that Dumbledore would not want Snape to have his murder on his hands.This flies in the face of everything he stood for! Ultimately, they were both protecting Harry, and I certainly think Snape was aware that Harry was lying a few feet away(Legilimency/Occlumency). Of course this idea is going to irritate Snape haters, and obviously I have concluded that he is one of the good guys(I'll have to look for that thread to explain) and also those who believe Dumbledore faked his own death. I don't believe that Dumbledore needs to be alive in order for Harry to finish what he has to do. :(
dribrats
10-12-2005, 11:33
SnarkologyMajor,
Again I totally agree with you, I have been reading your ideas and theories!
You and I seem to be on the same length.
Your Quote - Ultimately, they were both protecting Harry, and I certainly think Snape was aware that Harry was lying a few feet away(Legilimency/Occlumency). Unquote.
First of all, yes throughout the whole series, there are hints (clues) that HP was in fact aware of the fact the Snape 'seemed' to be reading his mind, 'knew' what he was thinking, etc... and could actually 'know' or 'see' beyond the invisilbilty cloak (as could moody). Yes! Snape knew HP was there and thru Legilemency, he and DD communicated - Severus, your vow! - you know what you must and have to do!
Second of all, I believe there is a connection with the fact that they were both protecting Harry, because of a pact (Vow) that they had committed to years ago. When Snape had realized that he had participated in the death of Lily Potter by giving LV the first part of the prophecy, he went to DD professing his regret and 'vowed' to DD to forever be on the right side. DD, wanting to believe Snape, but leery of his intentions, required an Unbreakable Vow (?). Snape agreed...to always be a member of the Order and to be Harry's protector, no matter his personal feelings (hatred of James). Over and over, everyone has questioned the fact that DD 'trusted' Snape implicitly...
There are numerous instances where one could quote Snape's alligiance to the order and his 'watching out' for HP - protecting him not only for the purpose of fullfilling a vow to DD and ridding the magical world of the evil LV, but also for trying to right a wrong - keeping HP alive - the wish of someone that Snape once loved - Lily Potter.
Sirius Potter Fan
10-12-2005, 19:06
Well, we all seem to be of one mind. . .but here's another log to add to the roaring fire.
Snape indeed was superior when it came to potions. Could the whole cave incident have been a setup. Say, Snape knew just when Draco would be instigating his little plan, (and why should'nt an acomplished legilimens like him know that) say that it was planned all along, to play out just as it had. the potion in the basin was put there by Snape with the fake locket (that DD had already found and realized was a fake since he found the real one at Sirius' house when the order had to vacate) this potion was designed to "imitate" death. as Snape arrived DD was fully under the influence, all Snape had to do was say AK while thinking another spell that he fired at DD. Simple right!
Only. . . much as I like that scenario. . . even if all above were really true, wouldn't the fall from the astronomy tower have killed him?
Now, honestly, I can't say if DD may or may not have been dead already when the AK was fired by Snape. I think I hope, more than know, that somehow Snape wasn't forced to actualy Kill DD, but my gut just seems to say Snape did. I do believe though that if he indeed did. it was on DD's orders, not Voldemort's. I believe that Snape is true to the Order. I agree that Snape's loyalty was based on Lily, I think they had some type of relationship. Can't help puting together the fact that Sluggy kept telling Harry how he was like his mother in potions, when it was Snapes book that he used. . .and Snape and Lily were in school together. . .
sorry, wandered off topic a bit:o So why did he do it? Because DD told him to.
Fortescue
11-12-2005, 02:18
Whenever I think about what happened on top of the tower and what Snape said to Harry afterward, I tend to think that Dumbledore did sacrifice himself for some reason that I can't quite grasp, in order to help Harry. That is until I remember what JKR said that we shouldn't think that Snape is too nice a guy - which throws all of my opinions on the ending right off the tower, so to speak! :)
It seemed that what happened could have been prearranged between the two of them, but how would Dumbledore know that the potion in the stand would do to him what it did, and how would he have gotten that information to Snape if he didn't know before he went to the cave? I think about Snape and potions and wonder if Snape didn't make that potion for Voldemort when he was still loyal to him and Snape was the one who told Dumbledore of its properties and what would happen when he drank it. Dumbledore knew he had to drink it, he couldn't pour it on the ground in order to empty the basin and he knew the potion would kill him simply by what he said to Harry, that he, Dumbledore, wasn't as important as Harry. He had to know that the only way you could get to the bottom of the basin was to drink the potion and that who ever did drink it would eventually die.
When Dumbledore told Harry what happened to his hand, Dumbledore said it was a small price to pay for one-seventh of Voldemort's soul, but if all that I said above is true and Dumbledore knew he would die by drinking the potion, then he died for nothing, and it makes me wonder if Snape didn't possibly know that what was at the bottom of the basin wasn't what Dumbledore was looking for, and it goes back to JKR's words about Snape's character.
All that said, if thoughts passed between Snape and Dumbledore before the curse, I'd say Dumbledore, who couldn't even stand up, was begging Snape to take him out. He was obviously suffering and I would think that if Snape was on Dumbledore's side and still spying on Voldemort, it might have been prearranged that Snape should kill Dumbledore if the need should arise, and if Snape was on Dumbledore's side, I'm sure he knew where Dumbledore and Harry had gone and what condition Dumbledore would be in when he returned.
As for Snape attacking Flitwick; I think he wanted him out of the way so he wouldn't be harmed. Maybe, if he'd had the chance he would have stunned everyone he could in order to keep them safe, but that makes me wonder if he stunned Flitwick to protect him, why did he let Hermione and Luna walk away. It would seem that he would have wanted to protect them too, so that thought doesn't really fly either.
As for SPF's comment that Dumbledore wouldn't ask Snape to kill, I don't think Snape being at Hogwarts was like him being in rehab or anything. He was there to make amends for something we still don't know about - and if he did kill Dumbledore as he requested, I think he felt guilty about it afterwards just by what he said to Harry on the lawn when Harry called him a coward. JKR tried to show Snape's pain at what he'd done, possibly, his firing of the fatal curse was the hardest thing he had ever done, (we don't know that Snape ever personally killed anyone while in Voldemort's service, maybe Dumbledore was his first?) - this taken along with his words to Harry: "DON'T CALL ME A COWARD!" Maybe it was the bravest thing he ever had to do and his perpetual anger toward Harry because of James, could not override his obligation to Dumbledore. Maybe there was enough good in Snape that he could get just far enough past his old feelings of hate toward James that he was actually helping Harry with his words - Keep your mouth shut and mind closed!
As you can tell, I'm still on the fence on this - I have no set in stone view on this and find there is not enough evidence either way for me to make up my mind. JKR left too many dead ends and unanswered questions, as she always does. I could lean more toward Snape killing Dumbledore out of necessity and not because he's an evil traitor, but I can't declare him that good yet. I'm going to read HBP again and see if I can make up my mind!
Sirius Potter Fan
11-12-2005, 11:54
I'm going to read HBP again and see if I can make up my mind!
Good luck! I've been through it 3.5 times, and every time i see something in a different light, and it still goes back and forth. I think of the unbreakable vow, that Shape HAD to take to save face in the DE camp, and know that if Snaper were on the order's side, that he certainly would have told DD, not only about the vow but of Draco's assignment. and we do know that DD knew of that. One time I will look at the "look of revultion" on Snape's face and think he hated DD, the the next time it seems that it was because he hated what he had to do. One thing that I think though, is if Snape were on the DE side, wouldn't he have first encouraged Draco to finish what he had started, and not so quickly done the deed himself. Or. . . was it that he had indeed discussed it with DD and had been asked by DD to do it himself to 1. keep his position close to Voldemort, and 2. Save Draco from becoming a murderer. There of course could have been many other contingency plans as well. I like the idea that Snape made the potion, have thought that likely all along. We are reminded again how good Snape is at potions, not just that he taught it, but he was often asked to make potions for others, and his writings in his book was what the HBP got it's title from!
It is still so hard not to ride the fence on this though. I am leaning to the good side, but haven't found the push I need to get my leg all the way over yet. some of it is because of another quote I heard on an interview once, where JKR was wondering why so many were "attracted" to Snape. since "He's not a very nice person". . . but then again we have Hagrid saying that the world isn't divided into just nice people and Death Eaters. There are "good guys" that aren't all that nice. Just look at Mundungus!
Fortescue
11-12-2005, 17:37
If we break down the possibilities, maybe it will be a bit easier to sort this out, (for me anyway :) )
1. Snape killed Dumbledore simply to keep his vow to Narcissa because Draco obviously wasn't able to kill Dumbledore.
2. Snape killed Dumbledore because he thought he was a dottering old fool, (as I noticed a few times throughout the books that he hinted in that direction.)
3. Dumbledore actually planned his death, time and place in order to set Harry on the right path - Snape killed him unwillingly, but did it out of loyalty to Dumbledore, and to keep Harry going in the right direction.
4. Snape is simply an evil being and has been playing Dumbledore for a fool all these years. Maybe Snape thought that if he could get in close to Dumbledore, he could learn the rest of the prophecy and relay that much desired information to his master. By killing Dumbledore he set himself in a fine place with Voldemort and will now be his most trusted beyond anyone else.
SnarkologyMajor
12-12-2005, 04:57
It is extremely difficult to separate this thread from the Evil/Good Snape thread since one depends on the other. Given the evidence of Dumbledore's memory of Trelawney's prophecy in the pensieve, I can only see 2 options-1 that Snape heard the whole thing or 2-that Snape heard none of the prophecy. Either way-he only told Voldemort the first part, which would mean his goal is to destroy Voldemort. Now I'm not completely ruling out that his ultimate goal is to replace Voldemort himself, but that sure seems to over-complicate an already over-complicated ending. If this were true though, then Fortescue's #2 or #4 could be possible-he's used Dumbledore for everything that he needed and now he's finished with him. Even though I'm keeping this option open-my gut feeling is that Snape is ultimately going to sacrifice himself to the cause. As for #1- wouldn't he have prodded Draco to do the deed as per the Unbreakable Vow like SiriusPotterFan suggested? Since the Vow w/Narcissa was ultimately to protect Draco, then Snape really needed to push Draco, since Voldemort was going to kill him if he failed?(Hope that made sense:) ) # 3-Is very probable, but I think this is almost impossible to figure out the details of without knowing the exact reason Dumbledore trusted Snape to his last breath. My best guess is that the two of them have had a last resort contingency plan in place for a long time (not just Book 6) to do whatever it took to protect Harry until he could destroy Voldemort. In this guess we have to look at everything that conspired against them that night.
1. Dumbledore drank a potion that in all likelyhood would kill him w/o antidote and it seems like a couple of hours had passed-time was running out.
2. Harry was lying frozen a few feet away with Deatheaters likely to step on him and discover him any minute.
3. Snape had the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa, if he didn't follow through, his cover would be blown and he would be killed by Voldemort.
4. The school was overrun with Deatheaters and Snape certainly got them out of there in a hurry!
When you read that final scene with Snape/Harry from this perspective Snape's pain comes through loud and clear. Somehow though he managed to leave Harry with a few more lessons that he is clearly going to have to learn.:D
When it comes to the cave scene, I'm so confused-to put it mildly! There are too many things about this chapter that don't add up, and I'm still trying to sort it out.
I had thought it might have been a setup myself although via the clue that Aberforth has the locket. My daughter pointed out that Dumbledore says he isn't sure which horcrux it is on page 547. All I can think is that if this was a setup-then it was all done in order to lead Harry to Regulus. Of course one has to wonder why the heck they would have to go to all that trouble. That's why I've been trying to tackle the Regulus/Sirius puzzle-I feel that is the missing link.
Oh what a tangled tale she weaves!!:eek: :eek:
Snape killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore asked him to - and as much as he would have struggled with it - he respected Dumbledore and all he did for him too much to not give the man his final wish.
Sure - it was extreme and he commited an act that is unforgivable - but given the situation he was presented with - he knew he had to ...
If he didnt kill Dumbledore then one of the others would have done it - and maybe not have done it quickly - making Dumbledore suffer ...
Snape knew what he had to do - Dumbledore even pushed him when Snape was finally confronted with the deed and had a moment's hesitation - but he did what Dumbledore had asked him to do ...
I have no doubts in my mind that all he did that night was what Dumbledore had told him he must do for the greater good.
Fortescue
12-12-2005, 14:45
All I can think is that if this was a setup-then it was all done in order to lead Harry to Regulus. Of course one has to wonder why the heck they would have to go to all that trouble. That's why I've been trying to tackle the Regulus/Sirius puzzle-I feel that is the missing link.
Oh what a tangled tale she weaves!!:eek: :eek:
I wonder if JKR intended the clue of R.A.B to be easy for us, easy for Harry, (he does tend to be a bit slow on the uptake at times,) or to be a complete trick for everyone?
Something rang in my mind as I read down through everyone's responses again. When Flitwick went to get Snape to tell him the Death Eaters were in the castle, Snape stunned Flitwick, but did not stun Hermione and Luna. But why?
I think he needed them to be witness to what was happening, to tell the rest of the world that Snape was evil and he stunned Flitwick to keep him out of the way, after all, Flitwick is the school expert on Charms. If that was the case and he was setting things in motion to point toward his guilt when he wasn't guilty of anything more then following Dumbledore's orders and setting things up the way Dumbledore wanted. The talk in the hospital wing after Harry told Lupin, the Weasley's and Professor McGonagall that Dumbledore was dead - Lupin and McGonagall both stated that Dumbledore trusted Snape, but you could tell, personally, they both had reservations about his character and purpose at Hogwarts.
I'm trying to sort this out without defending Snape too much, but things keep pointing back to him playing out a game that Dumbledore set in motion. Maybe in the end we will find out that Snape never did really work exclusively for Voldemort, but was a spy for Dumbledore all along, then that definitely would have made his killing of Dumbledore the hardest thing he'd ever done.
Given the evidence of Dumbledore's memory of Trelawney's prophecy in the pensieve, I can only see 2 options-1 that Snape heard the whole thing or 2-that Snape heard none of the prophecy.
You know that's an interesting thought. What if in all reality, Snape heard nothing of the prophecy, but was instructed by Dumbledore to tell Voldemort the first part of it, all but the actual important information so Voldemort would show his hand? Dumbledore could have set it all up, Aberforth was his brother and would attest to anything Dumbledore asked him to-Trelawney is an idiot - Dumbledore could have planted her memory of Snape hearing part of the prophecy at a later time. (Remember the version of the prophecy that Dumbledore showed Harry did not stop half way through and show Snape spying at the door!) Maybe that's why he wanted to keep her at Hogwarts where he could keep an eye on her not only so Voldemort didn't get a hold of her and get the prophecy anyway, but so he wouldn't see the imperfect memory that Dumbledore planted showing Snape getting caught eavesdropping. Dumbledore is a smart man, yet Harry's insinuations about Snape never ruffled him. I think there might be more to their relationship then we've been led to believe, and Snape's words to Harry "Don't call me a coward," was Snape's true regret for what he had to do to Dumbledore.
SnarkologyMajor
13-12-2005, 04:05
When you put the evidence together it makes you realize how dangerous Trelawney really is and why Dumbledore would absolutely not want her to leave Hogwarts! I wonder what is going to happen now with him gone? She's not only a threat to Snape but ultimately I believe to Harry. I was trying to figure out why Dumbledore would make her believe she was interupted halfway through and had to conclude it was a cover for Snape, but if they planted a false memory wouldn't Voldemort see through that? We got a look at what a false memory looked like in HBP. If Voldemort got a hold of Trelawney, Snape's screwed either way-Voldemort would see what really happened and the attempt to cover it up. Therefore, they must have made Trelawney believe she was interupted to convince the other members of the Order of the Phoenix? I have a feeling in the end we're going to be in for alot of suprises when it comes to Severus!:D I'm leaning towards the idea that something Voldemort did to his family when he was growing up was so traumatic that it shaped the rest of his life. Before HBP came out I figured if it turns out that Snape is on Dumbledore's side, then something Voldemort did must have really, really, really made him angry to the depths of his soul. We know he came to school knowing more curses than half the seventh years and taken at face value you lean towards him starting out evil, however if you look at it as he set out to learn everything he could to destroy Voldemort as a child, it sort of makes sense. It also makes sense that Dumbledore would take a boy totally driven by vengeance under his wing to prevent him from doing something stupid. It also explains his hatred towards James and Sirius, can you imagine a teen who is already working toward taking down Voldemort by living a double life, while James and Sirius are smug and conceited about being noble Gryffindors all while acting very immature. Although this is normal teenage angst and not a fair reflection of who they become, it certainly turns the tables when it comes to Snape's point of view. When I read through everything Snape has ever said to Harry without looking at it from Harry's perspective I got the feeling Snape put Harry at arm's length for a reason. This is all speculation, but if Snape knew that Harry's scar is a horcrux, then he certainly wouldn't want Harry in his head! And Harry has been there a few times now. When you consider that Snape is the person who just happened to be the one who told Voldemort the first half of the prophecy, it just so happens that the first thing he ever says to Harry includes a bezoar(which saves Ron's life), it just so happens that Narcissa comes to him with a plan that involves killing Dumbledore-We have to ask ourselves how these could all just be coincidences.I know that J.K.R. made the comment about Snape not being too nice(he's not!) but she also set the record straight about him not being the Prince of Darkness-she can be very tricky!
As for R.A.B. and the locket, even though it seems simple on the surface-it's not!
I'm finding that out the hard way!!:D Just when I think I'm making inroads-SPLAT-hit a brick wall!LOL
IF Dumbledore did ask Snape to pass the start of the prophecy back to Voldemort - then this whole thing is his fault!
Think about it - the prophecy only exists in more than just words because Voldemort made/makes it so - as such Dumbledore gave him the light to spark the fuse ... now we are defo in DiE land!
All I can say is no - either that or you just proved DiE with no effort on my behalf!
Fortescue
13-12-2005, 16:24
IF Dumbledore did ask Snape to pass the start of the prophecy back to Voldemort - then this whole thing is his fault!
Think about it - the prophecy only exists in more than just words because Voldemort made/makes it so - as such Dumbledore gave him the light to spark the fuse ... now we are defo in DiE land!
All I can say is no - either that or you just proved DiE with no effort on my behalf!
I knew you would think that way :o I'll admit, I thought of DiE when I was writing it, but you know how I feel about Dumbledore and would never besmirch the man intentionally. I think the entire mystery behind all of this lies in Dumbledore's relationship with Snape and possibly, a mislaid plan that went awry.
When you put the evidence together it makes you realize how dangerous Trelawney really is and why Dumbledore would absolutely not want her to leave Hogwarts! I wonder what is going to happen now with him gone?
When I look back on how much Dumbledore has protected her - he gave her a job when he didn't like the subject she taught and he knew she was abysmal at Divination, but he kept her on for sixteen years anyway. Then there was the scene with Umbridge trying to throw Trelawney out and Dumbledore ordered her to stay at Hogwarts. He has protected her closely and if you put the fact that the memory he placed in the Pensieve of Trelawney and the prophecy was not interrupted by Snape's being caught eavesdropping. Remember too that the other time we saw Trelawney go into a trance, she didn't know what she had said or what was going on around her. How was it that she could remember Snape being there if she was only half way through the prophecy when Aberforth supposedly found Snape spying and opened the door? It just doesn't add up to what other things JKR has shown us since. Sure, if Dumbledore planted a false memory into Trelawney of what he wanted her to think happened that night, and he set things in motion that didn't turn out the way he had hoped, maybe he does feel guilt, and maybe that's why he paid such close attention to Harry and assured is safety throughout the years, but I believe his intentions were good. And yes, if Voldemort captured Trelawney, that would be devastating for Snape, although, I believe Dumbledore could plant a false memory much better then what Slughorn did with his memory of his conversation with Riddle about Horcruxes. However, the biggest consideration there is now is at the end of HBP, to our knowledge, Trelawney was missing! Could that be an indicator that Voldemort now has her and is finding out things Dumbledore never wanted him to know?
As I said before, I think the relationship between Snape and Dumbledore is much more then we've been lead to believe and it might be the key to everything that's happened so far. Obviously, Dumbledore has acted much the same as Voldemort - he hasn't told all of the Order about why he trusts Snape and it seems he doles out information only when necessary. I guess you could look upon it as the best way to handle security under the circumstance, but it sounds like Snape is the most knowledgeable on both fronts of any other within either organization, and now that Dumbledore's gone, he seems to know more about what's going on then anyone in the Order. I'd say that'a a huge disadvantage to the good guys and if Aberforth doesn't step in as the man with all the answers for Harry, Snape will be a very powerful person.
You know each time you post in here Forte - you seem to be moving more and more towards a DiE concept ... :D
You know that we discussed in another thread the way Dumbledore interacted with Sybil in OoTP - the part you quoted above ... and once again we can all see avenues on that ...
But one of your last points is a real factor in this - Dumbledore has chose to share with none (that we know of) why he trusted Snape - and given all the times he has been confronted over it - you have to ask ... even at the very end if he did agree Snape would kill him - why he never told Harry ...
I think that is a big clue as to what it could be - something that effects Harry and by telling him Harry would respond towards him in a negative manner - moreso than deflecting the question ...
Why did Snape kill Dumbledore could just as easily be answer along with why Dumbledore trusts Snape ... because the thing that ties them seem to be enough that Dumbledore will not pass on the details to anyone - even the most trusted people around him - guessing it is now down to Snape to let us all know
Fortescue
14-12-2005, 16:17
You know each time you post in here Forte - you seem to be moving more and more towards a DiE concept ... :D
I know it might sound that way, but honestly, Dumbledore is my hero and I can't fault him for a few mistakes, now can I? :)
But one of your last points is a real factor in this - Dumbledore has chose to share with none (that we know of) why he trusted Snape - and given all the times he has been confronted over it - you have to ask ... even at the very end if he did agree Snape would kill him - why he never told Harry ...
I think that is a big clue as to what it could be - something that effects Harry and by telling him Harry would respond towards him in a negative manner - moreso than deflecting the question ...
Why did Snape kill Dumbledore could just as easily be answer along with why Dumbledore trusts Snape ... because the thing that ties them seem to be enough that Dumbledore will not pass on the details to anyone - even the most trusted people around him - guessing it is now down to Snape to let us all know
Just think of how powerful that would make Snape though, regardless of whose side he's really on! If it's true that he was Dumbledore's most trusted, and it does turn out that he is evil, that could be devastating for the Order. I tend to lean toward the fact that Dumbledore did possibly beg Snape to kill him, but if other theories are correct, wouldn't that have been dangerous? If all the Death Eaters can use Occlumency, could thoughts being passed between two people be picked up by someone else who knows how to do it? (That's another thread :) )
Anyway, I think Aberforth will be the deciding factor in the final book. He will be the one who has the answers Harry needs, and possibly, if it's true that Snape is not a traitor, it might be Aberforth who enlightens Harry to exactly what has been going on all along. Someone has to tell him, as any confrontation Harry might have with Snape, if he doesn't know the truth, could be extremely dangerous for both of them, especially if Voldemort or one of the Death Eaters witness the fact that Snape didn't kill Harry that night at Hogwarts, and then if they faced each other again and he doesn't kill him again, Snape's cover would be blown. If Snape is still on the side of the Order, he's surely a dead man before book seven is over, either way, something will happen and he won't live to the end, whether someone kills him out of vengance for Dumbledore's death, or Voldemort kills him because he finds out the truth, Snape is a goner!
Sirius Potter Fan
14-12-2005, 20:07
I hadn't thought about Snape being a goner any way things go, but it does seem likely. . . As things stand, Harry I think would be quite happy to take care of him. I think the truth of Snape won't come out definatively untill right at the end, when he shows his true colors when both forces are at the final battle, he will be forced one way or the other, and likely killed by the one he doesn't choose, but, . .not before he does some significant damage, possibly destroying a horcrux Voldemort has placed in his care???(just a guess) There will be some more back story, and I do think at some point we will learn of the entire reason of Dumbledore's trust. Dumbledore not only trusted his life to Snape, but Harry's and members of the order's as well. He is too wise to risk all that without substantial reason.
He is too wise to risk all that without substantial reason.
I have to agree. If DD had even the slightest bit of doubt about Snape, after everything Harry told him, he wouldn't have continued to trust him so defiantly. I believe that DD trusted Snape with his life, right down to how he should die. I also think that Snape may be the one to help Harry continue DD's work - yes, it would most likely mean he would have to prove Bellatrix right, that he was never really on Voldemort's side, but JK wrote about DD's trust so well, she made Dumbledore a person we as the readers are supposed to trust. (Of course, this could have been a cruel trick on her part). Why exactly he killed DD then and there? Perhaps to stop Malfoy from doing it, or being killed for his failure. We have to remember that had Malfoy let one of the others do the job, Voldemort would have punished him. With it being Snape, I am sure he has some excuse as to why he had to finish the job.
So - in answer to the thread then - the reason he killed him was because he liked, trusted and was in debt to Dumbledore?
Could be sarcastic and say nice repayment - but alas if it really was Dumbledore's wish - would that have been enough?
Fortescue
16-12-2005, 00:19
JKR has portrayed Snape as an evil, foul person throughout the series. Sure, we've always been lead to believe that he is at Hogwarts as some type of repentance for his past actions, but I believe that is just a ruse. I think Snape has been on Dumbledore's side all along and the things that happened when the Potters were killed was simply an excuse for Snape to make Voldemort think he was placed in the perfect position to spy on Dumbledore by taking the teaching job at Hogwarts.
I'm sure that Dumbledore recognized Snape's talents with potions and spells when he was still a student, and he probably noted his anger at the world for his abysmal childhood. The few bits of the younger Snape we saw showed the violence that made up his life. Did he really want that kind of life? It's possible that Dumbledore is the one who taught Snape how to do Occlumency - maybe Snape had private lessons with Dumbledore when he was a student just the same as Harry did!
A close relationship between Dumbledore and Snape would have to be kept quiet by the two of them for security reasons, thus it is understandable why Dumbledore never told anyone why he trusted Snape so. If Snape looked upon Dumbledore as a father figure because his father was worthless in that role, maybe Snape's act of killing Dumbledore was the ultimate sacrifice they both made in order for Harry to progress to the next level of what he had to do. If Dumbledore knew what would happen to him by drinking the potion, then I'd think for Harry's sake, he could have waited to get that Horcrux until he found a few of the others first so he'd be around to help Harry a bit longer.
SnarkologyMajor
16-12-2005, 03:52
I agree Fortescue-I think J.K.R. has helped that ruse along too, with her obscure answers about Snape. She seems determined for us to view Snape from Harry's perspective!(She does that alot:p ) There are many instances when Harry thinks Snape's just being cruel-when in actuality it can be viewed as Snape trying to teach him some things he needs to know. For example-Snape sure seemed anxious for Harry to learn to be prepared for dirty tactics in the dueling club scene from COS-I think the only reason he even volunteered is Harry! Clearly he didn't want to be in the same room w/Lockhart. I also felt he was testing to see if Harry knew parseltongue. There are many more instances but that would take forever...:D All those essays Harry complained about seem to be relevant also. The foe-glass scene from GOF is most compelling and helps w/walking this very fine Dumbledore line;) One thing Jo really excels at is creating multi-faceted characters and getting the point across that people aren't divided into the "good guys and the deatheaters"-all of her characters have faults! As far as why Dumbledore went after this particular horcrux first and left Harry still in the dark about certain things is confusing, and can't help feel it's all part of some much larger plan.
Something I'm trying to sort out is the fact that Snape started teaching about a year after Lily and James were killed and he told Umbridge that he applied for the DADA job(and every yr. since) Now Snape had to have known that the position was cursed-it feels like it was done for his cover but..can't quite figure this out?? It seems important though...I'm also terrible with timelines! Any thoughts on this?:confused:
Fortescue
16-12-2005, 15:45
Something I'm trying to sort out is the fact that Snape started teaching about a year after Lily and James were killed and he told Umbridge that he applied for the DADA job(and every yr. since) Now Snape had to have known that the position was cursed-it feels like it was done for his cover but..can't quite figure this out?? It seems important though...I'm also terrible with timelines! Any thoughts on this?:confused:
Snape actually began teaching at Hogwarts prior to the Potters death. The school year begins in Sept, and he told Umbridge in OotP that he had worked at Hogwarts for fourteen years, so that would have put him there at the beginning of the school year, almost two months before the Potters died.
The fact that Dumbledore knew the DADA job was cursed is interesting! If he knew it was cursed, why then did he give it to Snape that particular year? Was it as an excuse to show what Dumbledore and Snape wanted everyone to think were his true colors? Notice how Harry excelled at DADA every year, even the year that Umbridge taught the class, but only because of the DA and their private lessons. But, he went through an entire year in the class with Snape and couldn't learn to cast spells without saying the incantations??? It seems right along the lines of his not being able to do Occlumency because of the stress Snape created around Harry.
And that goes along with all of Harry's sixth year. Why was it that Dumbledore only taught Harry about Voldemort's past and Horcruxes when he was supposed to be the most powerful Wizard in the world? Then there's the potions book - the most informative potions book there probably ever was with all the notes and spells from the HBP himself - was it really just by chance that Slughorn gave Harry that particular book? First, Dumbledore knew Harry wouldn't buy a potions book because he didn't get the proper grade for Snape's level, so he would of course come to school unprepared for the class and just happen to fit into Slughorn's grade level for NEWT's. Second, would Snape leave his own potions book in the store cupboard where anyone could get it as he seemed awfully upset that Harry was using the spells he had made up. Was that just a stupid oversight on Snape's part, or did it all happen for a reason???
Was Dumbledore's death something the two of them had planned for a long time? Possibly since Harry first came to Hogwarts or before? Look at how many years Harry was at Hogwarts before Dumbledore told him how he truly felt about him? I think Harry's fifth year was Dumbledore's final chance to tell Harry how much he cared, because maybe he knew he wouldn't live to see the end of his sixth year!
Sirius Potter Fan
16-12-2005, 20:43
First Forte, I like the idea of it being Dumbledore teaching Snape Occlumency. That would make perfect sense of why he asked Snape to teach harry, because he had taught him himself, and expected that Snape would teach Harry int he same way.
I don't think Dumbledore's death had been planned for a long time, I think it had been worked out as soon as Snape heard of Draco's job. I think Snape finaly getting the DADA job was just that Dumbledore and Snape knew that since Snape would have to kill DD at some point in the year, That Snape wouldn't be teaching the next year anyway, and it would just seem that the curse continued. It was possibly Dumbledore's belief that tthe position was cursed, that kept him from putting Snape in the position in the first place, he wanted Snape to stay at the school, so he couldn't give him the DADA position untill he knew that he wouldn't be able to return the next year.
OK - last point is the killer point and also explain the answer to many things ...
So - Dumbledore gives Snape the job he so wants - knowing that the curse wont allow Snape to do more than a year ...
Makes perfect sense!
Snape would have come to Dumbledore straight after he made the unbreakable vow - Dumbledore knew that he would have to die at some point - Snape wouldnt be around because he had a large hand in it - so gives him the job as his final tribute to Snape ... might even sweeten the deal which will see Snape have to kill him!
He then sets about making preparations for his death - well organised mind and all he had months to set in month any plans he wanted to make before the fateful moment.
See he knew he was going to have to die - he knew Snape wouldnt be around in a year and might have even been a great test of Voldemort - will Voldemort allow one of his spies to die by the curse he placed on the position - like forcing Voldemort's hand!
The killer point is that before the school year commenced - Dumbledore knew he was going to have to die in order for Snape to live and continue in the quest - all it did was give him time and we know that he was missing for large parts of the year and the explanation was he was Horcrux hunting - I think he was organising things for the next great adventure!
SnarkologyMajor
17-12-2005, 02:54
Yes-this is starting to make sense! I knew you guys would grasp that timing thing better than me-I wasn't even thinking of when the school yr. started:o This does seem like it was planned all yr. that Snape may have to kill Dumbledore in the end. When you consider that Voldemort now knows that there was more to the prophecy than what he heard and Snape was the one who left out the pertinent part that led to his downfall-Why on earth should he trust Snape without question! Snape's great at covering his tracks-but Voldemort is not stupid. What better way to prove his loyalty than by killing Dumbledore?Or by Dumbledore giving him the DADA position he himself cursed?Dumbledore and Snape must have at least made plans when they found out about Voldemort's plan w/Draco. Of course this doesn't really clear up the matter of whether or not Albus's death was faked. On one hand I feel that Dumbledore was well prepared to die for the greater good-he certainly didn't fear death! And if you think about it- Dumbledore's mishandling of young Tom from the beginning sort of created this whole mess! When you see what happens to Dumbledore in the cave-it makes you realize the pain he must feel at carrying that weight. It fits with what he says to Amycus-
pg. 594 "Oh, weaker resistance, slower reflexes, Amycus," said Dumbledore."Old age in short...One day, perhaps, it will happen to you...if you are lucky..."
If by his death he could right some of the wrong-that would be a sacrifice he wouldn't hesitate about.Combined with everything else happening on that tower-I think I just convinced myself that he's really dead:( I still cling to the hope that he was already gone when Snape cast his Avada Kedavra.
Fortescue
17-12-2005, 07:46
When you consider that Voldemort now knows that there was more to the prophecy than what he heard and Snape was the one who left out the pertinent part that led to his downfall-Why on earth should he trust Snape without question!
I don't know if this might mean anything, but remember at the beginning of HBP at Snape's house when Pettigrew was there with him. The two people who had given Voldemort information that lead to his downfall were together!
Snape told him the bit of the prophecy that Voldemort could garner no useful information from, possibly fed to Voldemort directly from Dumbledore.
Pettigrew gave Voldemort the information of where the Potters were hiding and when he went there to kill them, well, you know what happened. (This makes me think of the thread where we discussed other things that might have been done to Harry, 'spells, potions, etc.' in order to assure he lived through any curse Voldemort shot at him!)
Is there a significance to the two of them being together after Voldemort had no need of Pettigrew anymore? I mean, why would the only two people who had given Voldemort incomplete information have been together when all these things came together? Could Wormtail be a bit more involved with all this then we have been lead to believe?
When I think about the sacrifice Dumbledore made to ensure that Harry could go on with his destiny, it makes me wonder if there wasn't a bunch more people who made great personal sacrifices for the same reason! The Potters, Sirius, etc...
Seeker615
27-01-2006, 12:05
I have always loved Snape's character. JK did an amazing job at writing this character and he is always a great read whether youlove or hate the guy.
I personally feel that Snape is on the good side.
Right from the Spinner's End chapter when he was explaining himself the Bellatrix you could see the lies in his story. He tells Bella that Harry has no special powers. Snape knows Harry is gifted. He has seen Harry do some amazing things. Also Snape says Dumbledore was wounded from his last encounter with Voldemort. not true. He was injured getting the horcrux.( Which also has me wondering... Snape could have killed Dumbledore while he was wounded getting that horcrux. It would have looked like an accident)There were a few other stories in that chapter but I don't have my book with me at the moment.
There is the matter of Hagrid overhearing the arguement with Snape and Dumbledore. He was saying he didn't want to do it anymore. Do what? I don't thik he was telling Dumbledore he wanted to stop being on the good side. I think he was trying to back out of a pact he made with Dumbledore. (possibly about having to sacrifice Dumbledore if the time came?)
Now we come to that tower chapter. Do we know for sure that Snape even really stunned Flitwick? Flitwick never said he was stunned. Maybe he was already injured when he went to get Snape and really did collapse in his office. If he was so evil why didn't he just off Flitwick and the girls to get them out of the way. I really can't see any reason for him to stun Flitwick.
Now Snape gets to the tower and sees Draco and the DE's surrounding a helpless Dumbledore. Dumbledore is dying. It is too late to save him. (I think if these events didn't play out Snape would have been able to save him) Now Snape goes to the front of the pack and a moment is exchanged between the two men. Dumbledore utters those words "Severus Please" and Snape kills him. Dumbledore would not plead for his life. He was reminding Snape that he made a promise and for the good of this mission Dumbledore will need to make this sacrifice as well as Snape.
Lastly- When Harry and Snape exchange words in the forest Snape is clearly hurt when harry calls him a coward. I really think that Snape was upset over what he needed to do. He killed a man who gave him respect and trust. Also even though Snape does not like Harry he was in a way teaching him by telling him he needs to learn to close his mind.
Sorry about my rambling...
Fortescue
27-01-2006, 15:28
He then sets about making preparations for his death - well organised mind and all he had months to set in month any plans he wanted to make before the fateful moment.
Okay, I read through all this again and this sort of jumped right out at me. Remember when Dumbledore destroyed the Sorcerer's Stone and told Harry that Flamel had enough elixer left to set his affairs in order. So Dumbledore's partner knew he was going to die and had time to make plans to tie up loose ends before his number was up.
Dumbledore knew he was going to die, and like his partner, made his plans. It makes sense that regardless of how long Dumbledore knew he would die, the fact is that he knew the entire year at least. He didn't just get shot over the edge of the tower by Snape. He knew what was going on. He might not have known of the exact second, or even the exact way he would die, but considering all that was going on, Dumbledore had to know that Voldemort would try and make a major move before the school year was up. With Snape's vow, Dumbledore's burned hand, the supposedly, deadly potion in the basin and the fact that there had been two assasination attempts on Dumbledore's life that year, the man had to know his time was drawing short.
So he planned and schemed. Remember Scrimgeours question to Harry about where Dumbledore was all year and what he was up to.....we were lead to believe that he was only out seeking the location of Horcruxes - but was he?
Both those last posts are excellent - thanks for Seeker and Forte - I think between the both of you, you have captured the essence of the situtation perfectly!
The ultimate answer to this question is simple - why did Snape kill Dumbledore - because he promised Dumbledore he would ... but the real genuis and also the facts so well bought out in this discussion is the really subtle undertones that spins the situation - in natural, uninformed reading it would suggest Snape is evil and kills Dumbledore dead ... it is only understanding what happened to get there that you see the real motivations - great posts Seeker and Forte!
Seeker615
30-01-2006, 07:24
Thanks Alz!
I have been spending a lot of time since HBP came out trying to find out why Snape did what he did. I just know there is so much more to the story then what we initially see.
I keep thinking in the end Snape will be the one to help Harry with the Horcruxes.
Well in support of that last comment - who did Dumbledore call for after his two horcrux endeavours?
Thinking logically - he asked for Snape on both occasions - doesn't this have to be more than magic strength, because I would have Dumbledore above Snape in strength and power - yet he calls for Snape for him hand and also after he consumes the potion.
Is it because of potions - well second time around maybe but why the ring as well?
I think there is a link between Snape, and the Horcrux powers - could lend weight to he knows a little more than most about these things.
Weasleyfanforever
30-01-2006, 21:08
Well, we know that Snape is a potions master, so that might be the reason that Dumbledore called on him the second time, but you guys are right I think about there being a link between Snape and the powers of the Horcruxes. It might have something to do with his apparent skills in the area of Defense against the Dark Arts. In order to defend yourself against the Dark Arts, you have to know them, inside out. I think Snape, whether knowing it at the time or discovering it later, helped Voldemort with the Horcruxes, and I think he told Dumbledore that during the time he was working at Hogwarts. It would make sense that Dumbledore would call on him in that case.
It did seem like Snape really went deep as well - I remember when he is describing them that Harry remarks how much Snape really feels about the subject. I think he saw it as his way to equal the wrongs - he was diminished in school towards the latter years - he was also seen crying as his father screamed at his mother - I think the power and control of the Dark Arts facinated him.
Dumbledore calling on him each time does make me wonder - I mean if he wasnt able to heal himself, if he could have anyone to go to - why Snape?
That trust element runs really deep - if Dumbledore was the slightest in doubt over Snape he wouldnt present himself in a vunerable and weakend state right?
Fortescue
03-03-2006, 14:58
Snape is obviously a very intelligent wizard. Look at how JKR showed him in the Pensieve memory - he was a geeky sort of kid, but very concerned about his grade on the test. Like Hermione, we saw Snape reviewing the questions after the test was over. The point has been stated several times after exams when Ron tells Hermione not to go over each question as it was bad enough the first time. So we see that Snape is smart - he spends all his years at Hogwarts in relative seclusion - we don't even see him with other Slytherins. So, if he were so smart, Dumbledore would have seen that, he would have also seen the loner Snape was and possibly knew about Snape's home life with the small glimpse we saw of Snape and his parents relationship and his lonliness, spending his time alone in his room shooting flies with his wand.
So I think the best senario would seem to be that Snape was a loner and very intelligent, Dumbledore saw that in him and took him under his wing. A bond grew between them and Snape became loyal to the only person who had ever shown an interest in him. He has been loyal to Dumbledore for many years and he was never loyal to Voldemort, but would do anything for Dumbledore and has thoughout the years of their relationship, even going as far as to let Voldemort give him a Dark Mark.
As has been stated before, Dumbledore and Snape made their plans. They both knew what had to happen and Snape was hesitant about fulfilling his part of the pact, thus the discussion that Hagrid overheard. It seems that all the evidence points to the fact that Dumbledore and Snape were in it together up to their necks and they were the only two who knew the true depth of their relationship and that is the reason that no one really knows why Dumbledore trusts Snape. Harry is mistaken in his theory that it's because Snape was the one who overheard the first part of the Prophecy and felt regret that he told Voldemort.
Snape killed Dumbledore because he was fulfilling Dumbledore's wishes as he always had. They both needed to do what they did and Snape was the one who had to be strong and go on with the plans alone after Dumbledore was gone to his next great adventure. The evidence that Snape was still trying to teach Harry by telling him to close his mind etc. etc. is to profound to mean anything else. Snape is not the evil monster we are lead to believe even though he did fire the fatal spell.
Sirius Potter Fan
03-03-2006, 15:49
I like your thinking there Forte. It makes sense when you think about it. The things that have me convinced, are:
the fact that he does the deed imediately after ariving and finding Dumbledore still alive. He does not taunt or torment the injured and dying Dumbledore, he doesn't say to Dumbledore for instance, "you always thought you knew it all, just see how wrong you were!" He doesn't torture him with the crucatious saying "Thats for fifteen years of denying me the DADA job" Snape arives, Avada Kedavra, and leaves. I believe that if he had stayed or waited long enough to "torment" Dumbledore that he may have lost his nerve, hence Dumbledore's "Please", not begging to spare his life but to have the courage (which most Slytherins lack) to do what must be done for the good of all.
The look of disgust on his face. He was not disgusted with Dumbledore, otherwise I think he would have done the above, but he was either disgusted with the job he was forced to do, or possibly with Draco for not doing this deed and thus forcing him to do it himself.
A relationship that "goes way back" just makes more sense as a basis for trust than deep regret at causing the potter's death . . . For one, had he regretted the potter's deaths, he would not have continued to hold a grudge against james after his death, and would instead have wanted to make it up to Harry for the loss of his family.
The bond of a long continuous relationship makes more sense. Good one Forte!
Plus Snape did not act like a man who had just done a great thing for his real boss (LV). He was extremely emotional as he fled the school--and I do not think it was because he was leaving a cushy job. And then Harry calls him a coward--with Snape now on the run from previous collegues, aurors, and always on the edge of discovery by LV.
Now I personally believe there's a good change Snape did not actually kill DD on the tower. But even if DD was successful in faking his death that does not mean Snape was in on it. He certainly didn't act like he did.
I tend to agree that if Snape was in an all out evil killing mood - he would have taken the final moments to tourment Dumbledore - make him look like a trusting fool who just found out that he was really wrong - I didnt get that.
Snape, as pointed out, seemed to falter - to hesitate - then Dumbledore prompted him - at this point he knew there was no way around it and that is where the look on his face come from - he was left with no choice and had to kill off possibly the only person that took a chance on him ...
i think dumbledore had asked him to kill him, i think it's all part of there plan,like snape bein a 2 sided spy,but dumbledore had to die (or fake it i hope) in order for the plan to work,so voldemort thinks snapes on his side, i still dont like snape even if he does turn out good in the end. but it was always wierd why dumbledore trusted him.he will proberly turn out to be pure evil he did give him self a title too
See, this just doesn't sit well with me. I'm trusting that JK is going to explain this in a satisfactory way. First off, I think Snape is DD's man. In another forum, we were discussing the possibility of DD faking his death with a dragon scale shield cloak specially designed by the twins for DD. Poster Filksinger said this:
So, into the middle of this battle between good and evil, where the greatest of good magics and the greatest of evil magics are compared so directly, your theory would give a third great magic: the Weasley Shield Cloak. And the power behind this great magic, equal to loving self-sacrifice and self-serving human sacrifice?
Being really really clever.
Somehow, it just doesn't measure up.
Part of my response:
The nobility of sacrifice coming from an act of murder seemingly forced upon an unwilling perp doesn't resonate for me.
I have a really tough time with the good guy asking another good (I know that term is relative in relation to Snape) guy to murder him.
SnarkologyMajor
15-03-2006, 15:25
I have a tough time with that one too-and I'm not really buying it...I'm convinced that Snape is one of our good guys and I can't see Dumbledore asking Snape to do that. I sense that Dumbledore truly cares about Severus and that to ask him to murder him if all else fails-well that doesn't seem to fit at all. I mentioned in the start of the thread the possibility that Dumbledore was already dead when Snape used Avada Kedavra-that's what Dumbledore was telling Snape w/his very last (literally) breath. I still think this is one possibility-Dumbledore was blasted into the air and we haven't seen that happen before w/Avada Kedavra. Dumbledore's soul may have already departed leaving only a very old and frail body.
Another idea is that Dumbledore was already essentially dead ever since he tried to destroy the ring horcrux. Snape's "stopper in death" is never far from my thoughts and Dumbledore said in Ch. 23-
pg. 503 "The ring, Harry. Marvolo's ring. And a terrible curse there was upon it too. Had it not been for my own prodigious skill, and for Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured,I might not have lived to tell the tale."
How exactly do you put a stopper in death? Is it like putting a cork in a bottle? Is it only a temporary fix? These are questions that I've pondered over and it seems like w/all the references to Dumbledore's blackened and dead hand, and his comment to Harry-Dumbledore was living on borrowed time. Now I don't know if that would mean he had a certain time limit or that the potion he drank did him in, but this is how I'm reading the clues. I could be wrong though as I've been wrong before:eek:
Well, based upon Snape's highly emotional state while fleeing the castle, whatever happened up there, I believe Snape THINKS he killed DD. I've read discussions about the possibility of it really being a mercy killing or that DD died just before the AK hit him. I'm not sure how JK feels about the first, and the second would take excellent timing to spare Snape the tear in his soul. I prefere DD not to have died because of the implications. I would not mind DD pulling a phoenix--at the very least it would fix his hand!
I think you are right - at the very least in all of this - Snape believes he killed Dumbledore - as such that doesnt sound so much like a well executed plan between the two or indeed Snape is a great actor and why the heck would he need to act in this situation?
So - the question once again comes back to why Snape killed him - if it wasnt a plan but I think we agree he isnt all out evil - then why would he have taken that pretty terminal and crucial step?
Is there another reason he had to kill him - could it be tied to the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape?
This is exciting because it opens up the possibilities a lot more as to the motivations of the attack. I am still in the back of my mind a 'Snape killed Dumbledore because that was the plan they hatched' kind of person but looking at the posts above you have to bring that back into question ... of course the sheer emotion of actually carrying out the act you had been building up to could have lead to the emotions we saw as well ... ummm
Fortescue
28-03-2006, 03:19
I think they had a plan, but the plan was one that was flexible as they had to know if the time and opportunity came to show Snape as an evil enemy and not a reformed Death Eater, they would take that opportunity. Thus, the argument Hagrid overheard between Dumbledore and Snape. I think they had it planned, but left the actual final blow open to opportunity, which Snape found on top of the tower. He had all the witnesses he needed with all the Death Eaters there. I doubt that he knew Harry was there, but that was an aid to the plan so that the Order knew what had happened. Everyone would now think he was evil all along, but was that how it was supposed to happen?
Maybe it wasn't supposed to happen that way and Snape was supposed to still be thought of as a spy for the Order. Maybe part of the plan had not worked out the way Snape and Dumbledore wanted. Whatever had been preplanned between the two, by Harry's witnessing Dumbledore's death, unless there was someone else in the Order who was aware of the plan, that door is now closed to Snape. I'm pretty sure that anyone in the Order would have the kill-on-sight mentality upon seeing Snape again. If Harry had not been on the tower and Snape had not left with the Death Eaters, Snape's position in the Order would have remained the same, yet the Death Eaters would know, (or think they knew) that Snape was loyal to only Voldemort.
Another thought occured to me. Snape's actions on the tower would show his loyalty to Voldemort. What about Bellatrix? She wasn't there on one of Voldemort's most important nights - his biggest enemy was dead and Snape killed him. What will happen to Bellatrix since she wasn't there, and I guess I'd want to know why she wasn't there since it was her nephews assignment to do what Snape had to do for him? Where was Bellatrix during all this and what will happen to her possition as Voldemort's most trusted when he finds out Dumbledore is dead and she wasn't there at Hogwarts with the others?
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
28-03-2006, 07:35
Well we have several options...
1- the unbreakable vow
2-his "loyalty" to Voldemort
3- The fact that he is so ambitious the he would lure anyone to get what he wants...
personally I was always suspicious of Snape...
See Forte made a great point there and something that was playing on my mind - why wasnt Bellatrix there?
This is what makes me still think that the removal of Dumbledore and the DE's fighting the Order in Hogwarts was just a smokescreen and in the Background the 'A' team of Voldemort and Bellatrix etc was up to something else ... her absense makes me wonder!
Of course - by having Snape kill in the view of all DE's it would have put to bed any nagging doubts Voldemort or any of the DE's were having over him - perhaps move him that step closer to Voldemort - perhaps it is enough for Voldemort to finally have trust in one of his servants ... perhaps that was Dumbledore final plan?
Of course on the flip side - as much as Harry now wants Snape - so do the Order - by having him enemy number one it seems certain that the Order or Harry will give finding and locating him the higest attentions - so once again it was a smart move by Dumbledore ...
Lupin is inside the circle somewhat with Greyback - it is possible he might learn of the location of Snape, Draco and finally Voldemort ... and could lead Harry and the order to the final showdown?
Selfless act of Dumbledore's life still provided so much opportunity for Harry and the order - i'm not discounting Dumbledore felt he was more useful in death that staying around!
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
28-03-2006, 13:27
Still I don't think he planned anything... Snape acted unexpectedly... and... Dumbledore was badly injured... he couldn't react properly and died... we must face it... Snape is evil... as we have seen the reasons Dumbledore trusted Snape ar way too far from those I would... such behaviour shown by Snape would make me at least send Him of to Azkaban...
;)
Fortescue
28-03-2006, 15:02
Selfless act of Dumbledore's life still provided so much opportunity for Harry and the order - i'm not discounting Dumbledore felt he was more useful in death that staying around!
That part alone makes me know that Dumbledore did sacrifice himself. You could tell by the things he said to Harry when they were alone, like your blood is more important then mine.... stuff like that made me know something was going to happen to Dumbledore. He made the greatest sacrifice so that Harry could succeed and I'm sure that however it came about, whether he and Snape had it planned since Snape made the Unbreakable Vow, or if it maybe happened a little earlier then that, I believe they planned it as closely as they could. Dumbledore knew that with the damage to his hand, the vow Snape took that couldn't be broken and the two attempts on Dumbledore's life that year, he knew he would have to give it up before the end of the school year. It was obvious, Hogwarts had been breached by the enemy and Dumbledore's final act of caring for Harry was to give up his life. :( I still don't like it much!!!
Blanche A. McFusty
29-03-2006, 23:14
Don't you think it was so incredibly odd that Dumbledore kept insisting that Harry go "get Snape" when they were returning to the tower? As Fortescue has stated, DD kept insinuating to Harry that he was so much more important than he was. Even as I read through the HBP the first time I realized that Dumbledore was headed to his doom. Why insist to get Snape and Snape ends his life?
I think it was part of the plan. I also prefer the possibility that DD faked his death and Snape did not know it. I have a real problem with DD (the epitome of good) requiring Snape to murder him (even if DD was already dying and you believe in mercy killing, it's a pretty low thing to trick someone into doing it for you.) Especially since Snape is on the run from all the good guys, even if LV is defeated, who will speak for Snape?
This could be another choice Harry has to make - what is right and what is easy - it would be very easy for him to kill Snape on sight now - whereas to listen to him, understand him and maybe even realise that he isnt the all out bad person JKR has made him out to be ... Harry is like Dumbledore in respect of giving people another chance and this would be symbolic in itself and something that shows a great deal of respect to Dumbledore and his lasting memory, Harry grew up to be like him!
Yes, I don't want Harry to kill anyone--even LV. No 17-year-old needs that.
Seeker615
30-03-2006, 13:04
I think Snape will be HUGE in the destroying of the horcruxes.
It's been established that he knows how to counteract curses. In the end Harry will have to work with Snape for the greater good. (At least I think that is how it will play out)
SnarkologyMajor
30-03-2006, 15:56
Well the reason that Dumbledore trusted Snape will be one of the huge bombshells in Book 7-everything that we don't know about Snape yet is what is going to tie alot of these mysteries up! At least that is what my gut says, I won't repeat all the hidden clues JKR gave us that show Snape is not the evil cuss that one sees on the surface(we've covered most bases on that one haven't we?) But would like to point out again that Snape doing what he did-got the deatheaters out of Hogwarts and right quickly at that. As good as an occlumens that Snape was-I'm positive that he knew Harry was lying there invisible. I really don't think that Dumbledore would give up and die (and have Snape kill him) except for one reason-to protect Harry.
Blanche A. McFusty
30-03-2006, 21:07
Well, if Snape knew that Harry was there it might explain why he acted so decisively and quickly. It doesn't explain the chase across the grounds, though.
Well, if Snape knew that Harry was there it might explain why he acted so decisively and quickly. It doesn't explain the chase across the grounds, though.
Well it still does in some respect - he wasn't going to get a word in edgeways with Harry after Harry see's him kill Dumbledore - this is the big thing now is that Harry wants to kill Snape maybe even more that Voldemort - Voldemort gave Harry his past - Snape made Harry's current life a living hell and to have been part responsible for his parents death - given him such a hard time during his school life and then to kill the one last remaining person Harry had a closeness to - tell ya Harry is going to be filled with hate and loathing when he finally meets Snape again but I think Snape will get to make his peace with Harry - not sure he will live to see the series out because Voldemort is going to be really PO when he finds out that Snape was batting for both sides all that time under his nose...
Still, isn't it great that something so conclusive and defining in the series still has us all guessing as to what exactly transpired on that roof top that night!
I am torn 7 ways from hell on it - but my gut says that Snape and Dumbledore were in cahoots about what was to be done and that explains the outwards emotional Snape we see in the dying chapters of book 6.
And Harry can't afford to be filled with hate if his real strength is love.
Fortescue
31-03-2006, 13:57
Well it still does in some respect - he wasn't going to get a word in edgeways with Harry after Harry see's him kill Dumbledore - this is the big thing now is that Harry wants to kill Snape maybe even more that Voldemort - Voldemort gave Harry his past - Snape made Harry's current life a living hell and to have been part responsible for his parents death - given him such a hard time during his school life and then to kill the one last remaining person Harry had a closeness to - tell ya Harry is going to be filled with hate and loathing when he finally meets Snape again but I think Snape will get to make his peace with Harry - not sure he will live to see the series out because Voldemort is going to be really PO when he finds out that Snape was batting for both sides all that time under his nose...
I think that's an important thing JKR was trying to do in HBP. She showed a huge closeness grow between Harry and Dumbledore right from the beginning of the book. Harry waited for a long time for Dumbledore to show up at the Dursley's, he even fell asleep sitting up in a chair.
The end of OotP was important, as I've said about a bazillion times, because we saw Dumbledore express his deepest feelings for Harry and his situation. Then we start out HBP with Harry patiently waiting for Dumbledore to show up at the Dursley's, (as I knew he would) and we saw them together throughout the entire book. All the important things that happened to Harry in book six involved Dumbledore in some way, (except the thing with Ginny.) JKR made a big deal out of the fact that the two of them shared so much. Then Dumbledore is killed by Snape right in front of Harry, (I still don't believe that Snape knew Harry was there.) We heard Trelawney tell Harry about the night at the Hog's Head when Snape was caught eavesdropping and Harry came to the conclusion that's why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much because he was sorry for what happened after he told the part of the Prophecy he heard to Voldemort.
She set us up good to see Harry's anger and what he would be going through into the final book. His determination to finish the job of finding the Horcruxes and Snape, and as much as he loved Hogwarts, Harry was determined to finish finding the Horcruxes before he finished his education in magic. At the end of the book we saw a bit of Harry's anger toward Snape, but how much will that anger grow and fester as Harry dwells on all that has happened between him and Snape since the first potions lesson when he specifically targeted Harry with the questions about Bezors - and how much more will that grow as Harry has time to absorb the fact that Dumbedore is really gone?
If Snape and Dumbledore planned for this to happen, I wonder if Dumbledore took into consideration all the implications of Snape's actions and how dangerous that might be for Snape should Harry find him before he realizes what happened at the top of the tower was actually Dumbledore's idea?
I don't think Harry will be ready to face Snape very soon. As Snape said, in a duel with a wizard you better be good at closing your mind, or your opponent will read you like a book.
SnarkologyMajor
01-04-2006, 01:33
Yeah, that's another piece of evidence that shows Snape's true loyalties:D Even after being called a coward and completely losing his cool, he still gave Harry a last parting lesson! Agree-it will probably take a bit for Harry to listen.
JKR says that Harry will never learn to close his mind - he is too openly emotional and that it what prevents him from being able to master this skill - isn't that all too obvious when you look at the master of closing one's mind and his temperament - one Severus Snape ...
Snape was always been cold, closed, calculated and almost subversive - Harry openly passionate, warm, friendly and caring ... that is the clear difference in the ability to master closing your mind ....
The fact we finally saw Snape loose that veil of ice is the most telling point of this whole discussion - something got under his skin and very deeply - more so than anything else before ... that goes to show you what he was feeling after killing Dumbledore ....
That shows you that Snape is human and caring under that cold exterior and shows he does care about something ...
Fortescue
02-04-2006, 07:08
I don't think Harry will be ready to face Snape very soon. As Snape said, in a duel with a wizard you better be good at closing your mind, or your opponent will read you like a book.
We have had debate before in another thread about how Harry's greatest strength is his ability to love, but it could be that his ability to hate will bring out certain powers in him that we have not yet seen. Or maybe the things he has been taught, but not yet mastered, like Occlumency and nonverbal spells will suddenly become easy for him as he enters into a total state of hate and a quest for retribution. Maybe he has to be a bit more like Voldemort in order to face him in the end?!!??!
Maybe Dumbledore knows this and that is why the sudden closeness between Dumbledore and Harry and then Dumbledore's death. It's possible that Harry needs that anger and hate to be a match for Voldemort and Dumbledore and Snape did what they had to in order to prepare Harry for the final meeting with the Dark Lord!
Of course it could be a natural evolution that the 'thing' (aka as Horcrux piece!) inside Harry that the Sorting hat saw, the mannerisms that reflect the Dark Arts and links to Slytherin and the 'looking similar to Riddle Jnr' ... the parts of the Dark Lord he took that night will come through and make him equal and better than his foe - because after all he can love where as foe can not ...
comonsenze
21-04-2006, 13:32
Perhaps Snape only killed Dumbledore because he was afraid to die. Therefore, when Harry called him a coward, Snape got upset and yelled at Harry, telling him not to call him a coward.
Snape knew he had to either carry out Malfoy's failed job in killing Dumbledore or die by not keeping his promise to do so. So he turned chicken and killed Dumbledore.:mad:
Fortescue
29-04-2006, 16:04
Unfortunately, I still don't believe Snape killed Dumbledore for any other reason then because Dumbledore wanted him to do it. We were shown too many times Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore. I specifically remember a time in GoF, when Harry had come back from the graveyard and Moody had just turned back into Crouch JR. Snape knew all along that Voldemort was getting stronger from the appearance of his Dark Mark. Yet, he followed Dumbledore's every command without question, even after he knew without a doubt that Voldemort had returned to his body.
You have to remember JKR had played Snape on a very thin line - his action and attitude can easy be adapted to both parties and his allegiance also - that is what JKR was trying to do - leave everyone with a large amount of uncertainty on what Snape's true motivations really are ...
I personally still feel Snape is only interested in Snape, going to Voldemort from the start served his own purposes, probably so he could get his own back on the majority of the wizarding world that mocked him but when he realised it wasn't for him, he then used Dumbledore to escape Azkaban and serve him ... now that Voldemort is back he will be very keen to keep both Voldemort and Dumbledore feeling he is their most trusted but in essence Snape is only interested in himself ... although I do still feel that Dumbledore got to him and that is where his defining moment is being built from, he was this selfish person who cared about no-one because no-one cared for him, then Dumbledore came along and gave him a chance and showed faith in him ... that has messed up his own plan ...
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
12-05-2006, 10:38
To me there is no way Snape will turn out to be a good character. Think What was the Half Blood Prince about? No one got it... Snape always dreamt of becoming powerfull all he wanted was power. he has only defined the side he would be loyal to when he evaluated the chances of getting successfull... when he found out he has Dumbledore in his hands he destroyed him... it's like during the roman empire, and other empires... whenever someone needed to reach the power he would first attack the part he thinks that can be destroyed, joining the other side.. then, after destroying that side (I think that he believes that he has done that by killing that side's leader)... after destroying that side he'll try to destroy Voldemort and get the power to himself... that's why he didn't killed Harry... he believes he can use Harry to kill Voldemort and get the power himself.^^ well i think I've gone too far in my thoughts...
And you could be absolutely right on that Ana. However, I'm inclined to think that DD's trust was NOT misplaced. I like the theory that the books form an arc. Books 1 & 7 are linked, 2 & 6 (just think of all the things first mentioned in CoS that become major things in HBP), 3 & 5, and 4 stands alone. If that ends up being the case, then there are many hints in SS that Snape is really DD's man--the foremost being that through most of the book we think Snape is evil and are proved wrong. I won't be a bit surprised to find this plays out in Book 7 as well.
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
12-05-2006, 11:30
Yeah but don't forget that the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape was totally ridiculous... think a little bit ... trusting Snape because he has said he wasn't willing to give Voldemort the oportunity to kill his Enemy James Potter?... and even so Snape is an excellent occlumens... plus he hasn't done much for the order neither... and when he made the unbreakable vow he knew already the mission that was given to Malfoy... he could have said thar he couldn't do that because it wasn't his mission... instead he has done something the dark Lord hasn't ordred him to... and Voldemort likes everything to be done the way he wants to... he would need Snape to spy the order... and he has lost one of his most important spies...as before he has killed Dumbledore Snape was one of the most internal members of the Order. Now he will be almost useless beacaus all of the magic world is searching for him.
Well, I'm one of those people that believe Dumbledore isn't really dead... so, I dont think Snape killed Dumbledore. We never really heard what the unbreakable vow was... I would believe that the exact wording would be very important... like clauses in a contract.
And I really do think that Dumbledore is a great wizard, and it has certainly been told to us by JKR that he is one of the greatest wizards of time.. how could he be so easily fooled? I fail to see how Snape could blind Dumbledore so easily. Dumbledore has said over and over again that he trusts Snape, I'm sure he had his reasons, and I'm sure it would take more to fool Dumbledore.
Snape and Dumbledore staged Dumbledore death.
There was no murder.
You have to mean it to kill with the Killing Curse... so if Snape was on Dumbledore's side, he wouldn't have meant it.. and so he wouldn't have killed him... not even the slightest of nosebleeds....
JKR has spent so much of the series trying to make Snape look evil and vindictive but the subtle clues contra to this are in there and not always hidden away.
Snape is the enigma in the series - the series has become more about Harry and Snape than Harry and Voldemort - in fact it has reached the point where the series is pinned on Harry and Snape.
Because of this, to have Snape plain old evil would just not make sense in any way, shape or form!
If Snape was evil, he would have let Dumbledore die when he came to see him mortally wounded. No-one would have know what happened because Dumbledore was not letting anyone know what he was doing.
Snape would have not tried to save Harry in PS/SS - another clue.
Film clue - look at what happened in PoA when Lupin transformed into a werewolf and then walked towards the kids ...
Sorry I am not even entertaining the idea Snape is all out evil, because there is too much to contradict that - I am not saying he isn't selfish, misguided and a nasty git - I am just saying he is definitely not all out and out evil and killing Dumbledore out of enjoyment - that trust they shared is powerful ... and once revealed will really show the extent to what Snape has been trying to make up for setting Voldemort on his path that lead to the fateful night.
Sirius Potter Fan
13-05-2006, 12:45
Ana C.B.RodriguesYeah but don't forget that the reason Dumbledore (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?p=26403#) trusted Snape (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?p=26403#) was totally ridiculous... think a little bit ... trusting Snape (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?p=26403#) because he has said he wasn't willing to give Voldemort the oportunity to kill his Enemy James Potter?...
Everyone looks at that part, and at the end of HBP Harry brings that up himself . . . but . . . Harry had more than one parent . . . there was Lilly. I honestly believe that Snape had some real feelings for Lily. IT hit me most when Sluggy kept commenting on how Harry was just as gifted with potions as his mother . . . when Harry was using the hints from the Half Blood Prince, which was Snape . . . Why wouldn't Sluggy compare Harry's "genious" to Snape? that would seem more plausable since Snape had also been Harry's teacher in potions previously. I think Lily gave Snape clues and hints as she worked them out and he wrote them down, perhaps she was a sort of tutor. It just seems to fit. Snape would have been devastated at Lily's death, but not James'.
That is exactly the point SPF - people who think Snape is a Potter hater always base it on James - and there is no doubt that there was hatred between the two - but there was also Lily.
Considering Snape was at school at the exact same time - and Lily was noted by Sluggy for her potions expertise - it cant help but shove you in the direction of Snape and Lily sharing a cauldron maybe?
We know that you have to have partners in Potion - Hermione and Ron sit with Harry - I don't think it is wild to assume that Lily and Snape might have shared a table and a lot of time together.
Another consideration is that Lily jumped to Snape's defence in the pensive flashback - another indicator there was Lily and James were around Harry's age - at that time James was still not going out with Lily and she even still considered him a show off etc - so they were not together at that point.
But if you want a real key reason Snape would loath James even more - imagine if Snape and Lily used to be an item when they were younger - I'm not talking true love or anything just a young crush kind of thing - imagine how Snape would feel a few years later if Lily hooked up with his school bully?
This is all rather a digression I know - but the manner of Snape isn't an open and shut case - that is why this thread keep going and going!
Sirius Potter Fan
14-05-2006, 10:38
Thanks Alz, nice to know we agree on something LOL! It just seemed too cooincidental that Sluggy was praising Harry being like his mom, when it was Snape's notes he was using. . . You know I think there's another thread in this . . . comming soon . . . did Snape help Lily, or did Lily help Snape?
DumbledoresArmy
14-06-2006, 16:36
Im sure this is somthing that has been mulled over already, and a point that is more obviouse than many of those found elsewhere on the site, however I am a much more recent Potter fan, and this site is turning me into a Potter Freak!! I just read all 6 books in about 7 weeks, I recently finished HBP, and was wondering how you felt about DD "pleading" with Snape, in a moment where no words were exchanged, and DD still seemingly still trusted Snape whole heartedly, why was he SO quick to "plead?" I dont see DD pleading ever.....why here and why so quick!? I guess the short answer is there was much more to that memory that we know so far. did DD know of Snape's betrayal long before he let on? Is it possible he was USING snape rather than trusting him?
Hi DA - felt this kind of belonged in here - so hope you don't mind the merge!
Most of tend to agree that the pleading was from Dumbledore to Snape to get on and kill him - as they discussed as part of the plan - the look Snape gives as he does it suggests evil vindictiveness but many of us saw through that and what the expression was for was Snape loathing himself for what he was about to do - what he had to do - and what they had planned all along to do.
If you flick back through this thread you will see some interesting thoughts on the subject!
And don't forget that the words used to describe Snape are almost the exact same words used to describe Harry as he forcefed the potion to DD. Surely no coincidence!
Fortescue
15-06-2006, 14:06
I wonder though about that bit from the book. We know that both Dumbledore and Snape were superb Occlumens. Could it be that Dumbledore's pleading with Snape was all for show, for those others in attendance on the tower at that time. Snape and Dumbledore would neither one need to say anything, they could speak to each other through their minds.
It would seem that Dumbledore's pleading was a ruse for us as well!
SnarkologyMajor
15-06-2006, 15:19
Ditto that Forte! Snape and Dumbledore are such excellent occlumens/legilimens(Snape is probably the better occlumens though)-that whole exchange had to be purely display.
Why did Snape kill Dumbledore? I don't know, but it still makes me want to cry!!
Having listened to half of HBP now, I have had some points refreshed in my mind, and over the last 8 pages of this thread, it has probably been covered.
I now believe that Snape killed Dumbledore because he was asked to, by DD himself, and it all has to do with the Unbreakable Vow. Remember Snape telling DD he didn't want to do it anymore? I absolutely believe they were talking about the UV, and how Snape would have to kill DD when it came to it. Dumbledore's pleading was for Snape to finish him, and not force Malfoy to, or one of the others. DD did not want Snape to die, I believe, because he is Dumbledore's successor.
Dumbledore trusts Snape, for what reason we really don't know yet, but I think over the past 16 years, it has been leading up to Snape taking over Dumbledore's work, with the advantage of being a double agent. There will come a time in the next book when Harry will have to accept Snape, and learn to trust him, for the good of the wizarding world.
Do I make sense? Basically i think Snape killed Dumbledore because of the UV, on Dumbledore's order, with the plan being to continue DD's work, and Dumbledore had to plead with Snape to do it, because Snape did not feel ready at that time.
Sirius Potter Fan
17-06-2006, 06:58
Ditto that Forte! Snape (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?p=27036#) and Dumbledore (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?p=27036#) are such excellent occlumens/legilimens(Snape is probably the better occlumens though)-that whole exchange had to be purely display.
I like the idea, and don't take my question wrong, but, if the pleading were all for show, why? Certainly not to "look good", because most all of us agree that Dumbledore would never "plead" for his life. I believe though that with his legillimens, at that moment had Snape been evil DD would have seen it and we would have been told of a look of shock on DD's face and that was never there, you know it would have been if DD hadn't been expecting it.
I think I'm pinning my ribbon on SM for this one - there was no need for him to beg to Snape for public show - he would have done that via occlumancy etc ..
The beg was genuine - do the job we discussed Snape - please ...
That is the only way and reason Dumbledore would have used his last words to beg in my mind - there was no merit in humiliating himself - Snape will score the biggest respect with Voldemort just by doing the job - the fact he was begging wouldn't matter given the overall result!
Sirius Potter Fan
18-06-2006, 11:02
Just a small tad of an addition here . . . There may have even been a plan for Snape to take the time to pretend to "gloat" over the chance to kill DD. But I think circumstances were a little more dire at the key moment than they had anticipated. Dumbledore was near death as it was from the potion. I think the pleading may have been a cue to Snape (possibly non verbaly as well) that he better get it done now or he was going to die anyway, and they would have lost any "show" for the surrounding DE's to strengthen Snapes position with Voldemort. I think that someone else in the order may have been informed of the arrangement between DD and Snape, and that will likely come out at some point early in book 7 to put Harry right . . . but . . . he may likely still reject it. Harry will likely find out when perhaps Moody (suspiciously absent in HBP) gives Harry some info on Voldemort's plans and must explain where the info is coming from . . . OK straying off topic here LOL.
Once again I agree - I think that he was most certainly going to die anyways - maybe longer and drawn out than the quick dispatch Snape was offering - and indeed by being witness as the person that killed Dumbledore for his master, Snape has elevated himself in usefulness to both Dumbledore and the Order - Snape will be rewarded above all others for what he did that night - Voldemort believed that Harry without Dumbledore was a Harry he could triumph over - and that is why he didn’t go after Harry in book 6 - he removed what he considered to be his greatest chance of stopping him succeed!
I think there is enough there to show that this wasn’t just a random act of Snape getting his revenge on Dumbledore ... that is the way JKR was looking to have us think and on first reading she scored that - but when you look at it on reflection of the events leading up to that moment and what happens just after - you see the real story behind the killing.
Fortescue
24-06-2006, 01:03
I still believe JKRs little hint that we shouldn't think Snape too nice of a guy was to sidetrack us. Maybe she got nervous when someone figured out who Aberforth was and didn't want anyone to see too deeply into her planned plot regarding Snape. After all the anomosity Snape has shown toward Harry, maybe she thought that it would lessen the impact of her final bang if everyone thought Snape was actually on Harry and Dumbledore's side the entire time, yet she had to leave his character open so the doubt would remain there in our minds for what she really has in store for us.
I think there is more evidence there that Snape is indeed a good guy. Maybe it's just easier for me to deal with Dumbledore's death to think that he willingly sacrificed himself to help the cause then to think that he was murdered by one of Voldemort's henchmen!
You see it could also be a sweet double, double twist though right?
She makes him look bad, then good and then bad - so we scramble towards him being good overall given all the badness surrounding him - only for her to be as good as her word and he was an evil little toe rag!
I still remember one of the interviews going way back when someone asked JKR if Snape was redeeming - she was shocked when she replied and caught off foot - I think that is telling in this little debate!
I guess the real class of JKR comes in the fact it isnt black and white - but still great arguments from both sides of the fence ... personally I think he is good and killing Dumbledore was all part of the bigger plans!
AMRMedic
02-07-2006, 18:31
I just re-read HBP.
Did anyone pick up on the fact that Snape actually gave hints to Harry as he was running away with Draco and Harry was attacking him? He told Harry to use non-verbal incantations? Could this be a jab at Harrys' wizarding ability or a hint for Harry? Also, Snape was telling Harry no, to stop following and attacking. It was written to seem like Snape was not being mean, but was trying to tell Harry that there was more going on than he knew? Snape prevented the other DE's from killing Harry. Also, did Dumbledore really know about the attacks? Why did he not stop them? He knew that other students would get hurt by them, but did not stop Draco. Why?
Also, what part does Fawkes fit inot this?
A Phoenix dies only to be reborn. And at the funeral, Harry saw a phoenix rise from Dumbledores body. Maybe Dumbledore will rise again?
And finally will Harrys' need/want of revenge be his downfall? In many novels besdies Harry Potter, revenge has been the motive and ended up causing the downfall of the hero.
Some thoughts. I know I went off topi a little.
Sorry.
Wow - some good questions there ..
First one I want to pick up on because it made me go umm - Did Dumbledore know what was going to happen?
If so - is he guessed or even knew Draco was planning to get DE's into the school - he was remarkably blasé about the safety of the students inside.
This would suggest even he didn't know that Draco planned to get DE's into the school - he knew he was Draco's target but don't think he knew how Draco planned to do it in the end ... so could this be a strike against Snape?
No, because he also wasn't fully aware - when he tried to push Draco for details around Christmas time - Draco stormed out ... so this then come to did Voldemort know of the plan Draco was hatching - and if so why did he not tell Snape?
Just a few off the bat thought - relevant in so much as we all assume Dumbledore and Snape were in cahoots over this whole deal - well seems like something broke down somewhere!
To try and tackle a few of the other points ...
Fawkes - Fawkes is most important because it is widely speculated he provided the feathers for the brother wands ...
JKR seemed to write it such that Fawkes left Hogwarts for good after he lamented and then disappeared end of HBP ... now not sure I believe we will never see Fawkes again but that is the drift JKR seemed to be eluding to.
As far as Snape trying to help Harry - once again no issues from here - it has been said over and over that Snape is trying to help Harry and this would tend to follow that same pattern - help in a way Harry never really understands but instead almost looks sneaky and underhand - concealed almost by JKR ...
The last point - I think that could almost be a thread on it's own to do it justice if you could oblige - but I think you could be right - Harry hates Snape equally if not more than Voldemort now - I think he knows if he finds Snape now he will find Voldemort - the question is will Harry keep Snape alive enough to really find out what this is all about - because as a few people have pointed out the series seems to have flipped somewhat and it is more about Harry and Snape than anything else - how woven into the tapestry is Snape ... he is like the main running thread ... he is around and in the middle of all major events in Harry's life!
greenwitch
08-10-2006, 22:26
I agree partly with Snarkologymajor and Dribrats re: the reason Snape killed Dumbledore. Dumblebore was close to death and would have died in a couple of minutes even without any help from Snape and the Death Eaters. But I believe people are too obsessed with Harry Potter. THis is not about saving Harry Potter it is about saving Draco Malfoy - remember that Dumbledore called him an innocent? If Snape had not killed Dumbledore or pretended to, the Death Eaters would have forced Draco to do it or they would have killed Draco and Dumbledore on You-Know-Who's orders. I believe, Dumbledore explained the fact that he was dying to Snape (they are both mind readers) and begged him to finish him off. There is no doubt that Snape was furious at having to do this - after all it meant sacrificing his comfortable life as a DADA teacher for the life of a fugitive! I also agree that Snape probably had feelings for Lily Potter and secretly renounced his allegiance to LV because of that.
I think Draco was certainly a part of what happened, but I don't think he was all of it. I still have issues with DD letting a wannabe killer running around the school and endangering the students. I think he would have been hard pressed to explain to the Bells or the Weasleys that Draco's life of was more valuable than Katie's or Ron's (or anyone who had the misfortune to get in the way). DD had to have other reasons for letting Draco continue--like finding out the way Draco had he thought would get DEs into the school, when ALL the students would have been in danger.
Fawkes - Fawkes is most important because it is widely speculated he provided the feathers for the brother wands ...
JKR seemed to write it such that Fawkes left Hogwarts for good after he lamented and then disappeared end of HBP ... now not sure I believe we will never see Fawkes again but that is the drift JKR seemed to be eluding to.
I vote for Fawkes transferring his alliegiance to Harry now that DD is dead.
Fawkes and Harry have worked together in the past, and with Harry's strong ties to DD I could see Harry being able to "call" Fawkes again.
It would be an incredible bonus to have Fawkes on your side- think DD in the fight with Voldy in OotP- Fawkes pops out of the air to swallow a curse saving DD...
This would be another reason for DD to allow Snape to kill him- to transfer Fawkes' loyalty to Harry for Harry's protection.
Sirius Potter Fan
11-10-2006, 13:51
Very interesting ideas there tobias . . . I hadn't thought of the possibilities of Fawkes intervening in a duel of two wands both containing his own feathers . . . I can see it making sense that he could absorb any spell cast from either wand . . . giving Harry a definate advantage. And, Fawkes doesn't have to return to Hogwarts to help Harry, since Harry has planned to leave Hogwarts on his quest. (still hoping he will return however) However . . . I don't see it entirely being necessary for DD to be dead in order for Fawkes to become loyal to Harry; we have already seen him coming to Harry's aid while DD lived.
I'm still riding the fence on whether DD lives/died. I don't believe that Fawkes lament proves DD's death. It could have been planned for him to do that so all others would be convinced of the death. (but . . . I could be wrong!:rolleyes: )
foreshadower
11-10-2006, 15:11
Snape killed dumbledore because he had to, in order to keep Voldemort's trust. Snape is the best occulemens, thats why Voldemort has to put his trust in him, he cannot hack into his mind, because snape's too good at concealing it.:) Snape is good. he is just a good guy pretending to be bad. Voldemort thinks that Snape is a bad guy pretending to be good. (bad being voldemort follower, good being harry follower);) . Snape knew that he had to kill dumbledore, because if he did not, voldemort would not trust him, and kill him. Snape also knows the dark arts better than anyone else. He can teach harry the best. Dumbledore was trying to tell Snape to save harry, he was NOT BEGGING FOR HIS LIFE AS IT SEEMED IN THE SIXTH BOOK!! :mad: DUMBLEDORE WOULD NEVER BEG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: This is why snape killed dumbledore and just for future reference remember this: SNAPE IS GOOD, HE HAS NEVER DONE ANYTHING BAD THAT HE DID NOT HAVE TO DO:eek:
I vote for Fawkes transferring his alliegiance to Harry now that DD is dead.
Fawkes and Harry have worked together in the past, and with Harry's strong ties to DD I could see Harry being able to "call" Fawkes again.
It would be an incredible bonus to have Fawkes on your side- think DD in the fight with Voldy in OotP- Fawkes pops out of the air to swallow a curse saving DD...
This would be another reason for DD to allow Snape to kill him- to transfer Fawkes' loyalty to Harry for Harry's protection.
But see this is where I to and fro on the idea of seeing Fawkes again - Harry mentions that as Fawkes stopped his lament he knew at that time he would never see Fawkes or Dumbledore again ... why is that?
I mean, do we take it as literal because JKR made him say that - I mean it seemed like a wierd thing to say right?
Ravenclaw
14-10-2006, 20:24
I think that there is the slightest possibility that Snape did not kill Dumbledore at all. I have held on to a theory that Snape needed to do something drastic to maintain Voldemore's trust in him. Narcissa and Beletrix (and a lot of other Death Eaters) seem to all have distrusted Snape at least a little bit.
Snape is perhaps one of the best legilimens in the world, he would certainly have known of Malfoys plan after an entire school year. I think Snape plays "dumb" with Draco so that Draco won't have reason to think that Snape might interfere.
I think that Snape knows of Draco's plan to let the Death Eaters into Hogwarts and try to kill Dumbledore. I think that Snape and Dumbledore worked together to #1 Remove Harry from the Castle that night so that Harry wouldn't be harmed or interfere with the plan. Second, Snape doesn't "kill" Dumbledore until there are acouple of other Death Eaters there to see it. I think that Dumbledore's death is a ruse. Dumbledore (knowing that he is being hunted) is removing himself from the School to protect the kids and also this gives him unfettered time to search for and destroy the horcruxes.
This ruse would give Snape the credibility he needs with the other Death Eaters and would certainly make him gain Voldemore's trust (Snape is also a very good occlumens). Snape returns to Voldemore with the other Death Eaters as a hero but I think that he may just be the ultimate tripple agent.
Think about it. No kids are killed or injured in the invasion of the school, this is quite lucky isn't it? Members of the Order are there pretty quick, ones who wouldn't have normally been in Hogsmead. Sort of interesting that Snape doesn't kill Harry as Harry chases him across the lawn...Sure, Bill got bitten by Graback but not much else of significance happened other than everyone thinking that Dumbledore is dead.
Fortescue
15-10-2006, 08:25
I think I'm pinning my ribbon on SM for this one - there was no need for him to beg to Snape for public show - he would have done that via occlumancy etc ..
The beg was genuine - do the job we discussed Snape - please ...
That is the only way and reason Dumbledore would have used his last words to beg in my mind - there was no merit in humiliating himself - Snape will score the biggest respect with Voldemort just by doing the job - the fact he was begging wouldn't matter given the overall result!
Okay, so I spent a very long time rereading this entire thread! Shoo!!! :rolleyes:
I blew the dust off this comment as I still feel that something more then Dumbledore's verbal pleading passed between him and Snape just before Snape shot the fatal spell.
HBP - The Lightningstruck Tower pg. 595
"Severus . . . "
The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading.
Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way. The three Death Eaters fell back without a word. Even the werewolf seemed cowed.
Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.
"Severus . . . please . . ."
Again, we see things through Harry's eyes. He took Dumbledore's verbal words as pleading, but there was a pause there when the two of them only looked at each other. We see that Harry perceived Snape's look as one of revulsion and hatred, but has JKR once said throughout the entire series that Snape ever smiled? I don't think so! He sneared quite often, but I don't think he ever once smiled!
If during that moment of silence, Dumbledore was communicating with Snape the fact that he had to do the deed, thus the look on Snape's face. We see it through Harry's eyes, but we know how Harry has always felt about Snape.
It was all a set up! I believe the set up went on all year, thus Dumbledore's words to Harry that he was to always have his invisibility cloak on him wherever he went all year. It was quite fortunate that he had it on at the time that Draco came to the tower.
Also, remember how Snape went up on the tower. Hermione and Luna were watching Snape's office, but we never actually found out that he harmed anyone in order to get on the tower, other then Stupefying Flitwick. He didn't even seem know the Death Eaters were in the castle until McGonagall sent Flitwick down to get him.
When it was over, Snape went down from the tower after the other Death Eaters and ran out of the castle. Of course, the other teachers would not shoot at Snape unless he did something before them like shoot a spell at someone. They thought Snape was chasing the Death Eaters. Hagrid even commented on that. But to our knowledge, until Snape faced Harry on the grounds, he did nothing like that. He simply ran down from the tower and out of the castle behind Draco and the Death Eaters.
I think that moment of silence as Snape stared at Dumbledore was a time for Dumbledore to give Snape his final instructions and possibly a bit of encouragement to do what he needed to do!
Ravenclaw
16-10-2006, 09:32
Fortescue -
I agree with you100% -
Snape could have killed or injured kids or teachers if he wanted to, If he DID kill Dumbledore, he did it on Dumbledore's order. It will be interesteing to see how this plays out in book 7. I think Snape may actually come to Harry's aid in the end.
Snape loved Lilly and he see's her in Harry's eyes. He won't hurt Harry. He dislikes Harry because of James' actions toward him but I believe that this internal battle will play out in #7 - Harry's eyes are significant.
But see this is where I to and fro on the idea of seeing Fawkes again - Harry mentions that as Fawkes stopped his lament he knew at that time he would never see Fawkes or Dumbledore again ... why is that?
I mean, do we take it as literal because JKR made him say that - I mean it seemed like a wierd thing to say right?
Harry is in grief and is saying goodbye to a mentor, and the closest thing to a father he has known. Fawkes has always been associated with Dumbledore (always at the side of DD, always there when Harry shows loyalty to DD, always an extension of DD's protection of Harry...) and since he has seen Dumbledore the last time he naturally thinks "I am hearing Fawkes for the last time".
It is tempting to hold Harry's perception of events up as fact but I am constantly reminded of Harry's perceptions as being biased when I see Snape through Harry's eyes. JKR uses the "Harry thinks it so it must be true" line to distract her readers all the time. It is an excellent plot device.
Of course, it could be that I just like the idea of an eternal bird finding a new person to protect and befriend when the old one dies. Fawkes is a handy friend: able to cure wounds, able to strengthen, able to pop out of the air to protect (unsummoned as well). But one benefit to Snape's killing Dumbledore is that now that powerful friend is not tied to Dumbledore and maybe he is now tied to Harry.
The maybe in the last sentence being the sticking point in the whole arguement...
But one benefit to Snape's killing Dumbledore is that now that powerful friend is not tied to Dumbledore and maybe he is now tied to Harry.
The maybe in the last sentence being the sticking point in the whole arguement...
Yep - I am with you on that one - Snape is now down to the last denomintor - the one he has been trying to help in the background - hiding in the wings so to speak - now he has no-one to hide behind and thus Harry will discover to his horror that Snape has been helping him all along ... a mind trip for Harry considering his mindset now states that Snape must die on sight!
nymphadora
18-10-2006, 18:58
I think it would be interesting to see Fawkes come back as an ally to Harry, although I am not entirely convinced that he will. I believed that Fawkes died with Dumbledore. And after reading many of your arguments, I am more on the fence about why Snape killed Dumbledore than ever. I would like to believe that he is evil, but more and more I am becoming convinced that he is good because of his advice to Harry as he was running out of the grounds (Close your mind!) and also the fact as some of you have pointed out, that he did not harm any of the students or Order members as he was leaving (or was that just because he didn't want to take time away from his escape?).
Even if Harry does discover that Snape has been trying to help him the whole time, I don't believe that it will change Harry's opinion of him. There is way too much history and hatred between the two. Quite possibly Harry still might want to kill Snape if he turns out to be good.
Urg. This is so difficult! I'm currently reading HBP and will come back to this when I have it all fresh in my mind.
at the time of Snape's escape, none of the order knew that he had killed DD, therefore they let him run through without getting in his way. they would have believed he was doing something DD had asked him to.
I suspect that if any of them had tried to stop Snape, he would have attacked them - however, JK couldn't do that, because Snape would have had to have chosen between the killing curse, or something just as awful, or a curse that would just harm the members but cause no lasting damage - depending who's side he was on, and that would have been too much of a giveaway ;)
nymphadora
19-10-2006, 04:58
Exactly, and he probably felt bad enough already, just having killed Dumbledore (whether he wanted to or not) because unless you are truely evil, like Voldemort, you will likely always have some guilt about killing another person, and he is fairly close with the other order members so he probably didn't want to harm them and make himself feel even worse. Well, that argument makes it seem that I feel he's good, but I really don't know. Maybe deep down I want him to be good, but I think on the surface I want him to be evil.
I still believe the way JKR wrote Snape is the biggest clue as to his true intentions .. because she wrote him to be evil, nasty and outwards a twisted little guy but in there lies the true man - on the outside he is all of those things but on the inside it is very different ...
I still believe the way JKR wrote Snape is the biggest clue as to his true intentions .. because she wrote him to be evil, nasty and outwards a twisted little guy but in there lies the true man - on the outside he is all of those things but on the inside it is very different ...
i am undecided regarding this way of looking at Snape. I would like to believe it to be true, but you know what they say - if it looks like a monkey, and it sounds like a monkey and if it smells like a monkey...then it is a monkey.
but of course, the monkey isn't trying to disguise itself and pass as both good and bad at the same time :rolleyes:
Padma Patil
22-10-2006, 07:56
i am undecided regarding this way of looking at Snape. I would like to believe it to be true, but you know what they say - if it looks like a monkey, and it sounds like a monkey and if it smells like a monkey...then it is a monkey.
but of course, the monkey isn't trying to disguise itself and pass as both good and bad at the same time :rolleyes:
Silly monkeys! lol...
Anyway, I'm not sure what to think of Snape. My theory as of right now is that he really is a good guy on the inside, but he has a hard time showing it on the outside because of his upbringing. His parents and friends were supporters of Voldemort. Actually we don't know much about his parents, just that they used to argue a lot.
I think that he is going to come back in book seven and try to tell The Order his side of the story. I'm still undecided as to how The Order will respond though.
Oh, and I found a humourous explanation as to why Snape killed Dumbledore. Its in my sig. :D
secret seeker
25-10-2006, 21:01
Snapes works for voldemort. Snape isnt loyal to the order, dumbledore didnt expect to be killed, wormtails debt will come into play, demetors kiss voldemort. the end.
whether snape is gd or bad is impossible to ascertain due to the way his character has been written. its had been said over and over again tht dumbledore trusts snape so i can believe this to be true. i have started to believe that snape is on dumbledores side.but i believe dumbledore is against harry and voldemort......he has controlled both harry and tom from before they knew they were wizards so has amazing control over both.
Sevstrueluve
04-02-2007, 16:58
In HBP, Hagrid overheard part of a conversation between the Headmaster and the Potions Master. He heard Severus Snape say that he was tired and maybe he didn't want to do it anymore. The Headmaster told him he had to.
I believe that conversation was about the night on the lightening struck tower. After Severus made the UV (unbreakable vow) with Narcissa he probably went and told the Headmaster everything, after all Severus is a double agent. So, therefore, Albus Dumbledore, knowing that he was expendable and that Severus wasn't, planned out the scene on the tower. Joanna has already stated that the Headmaster is most certainly dead. But, the plan was for Severus to kill him when Draco couldn't. No one really believed Draco capable of murder. But, Severus killed Albus to keep his role as DE (death eater) secure. A very convenient place for Severus. One where he can still help Harry defeat the Dark Idiot.
In my opinion Snape made the vow with sissy because bella was challenging his loyalty to LV and either good or bad he couldnt back down to that challenge. I dont think that he cares about what happens to draco or harry atleast at this point because of the pressure. Also did LV know about the vow because if he did then wouldnt he be mad at sissy and bella? and if he didnt then wouldnt he be mad at both snape and draco? I donno I think that snape killed DD partly because of the vow/like greyback wanted to mutilate DD so he did it for the greater good of DD and draco. or. he did it because he knew it was his butt if he didnt and he didnt ever really care about anyone but himself. Still someone is going to be in trouble when the dark lord finds out what happened. Maybe this should go on another thread but what if snape and draco didnt disapperate back to LV? what if they went somewhere else? we know that draco was leaning back to the good side at the end and if its true about snape being good maybe they left just to save their tookis' and then explain it all to the order later. I donno I'm on the fence as well let me know what you think about my post.
Maybe Snape killed Dumbledore because he wants to rule the magical world, he would need Dumbledore and Voldermort out of the way for that to happen.
Big question here. How do we know that he didn't already have Voldermort out of the way, or atleast greatly diminished during this book?
We know that Dumbledore destroyed the Slytherin Ring Horcrux. We do not know what effect that might have had on Voldermort, we do not know whether or not Draco and Bellatrix, or anyone else other than Snape and Wormtail saw or heard from Voldermort after that horcrux was destroyed.
We do know that Harry did not have the Voldermort intrusions into his mind, we do know that while his Death Eaters were storming Hogwarts, there was no mention of Voldermort being around. We know that Wormtail was at Snape's house, the two of them together could have sure pulled together to conceal any diminishment of Voldermort from the rest of the Death Eaters, remember Wormtail owes Harry a life debt. We know Bellatrix complained that the Dark Lord would not confide in her the same way, easily she could have been seeing either Wormtail or Snape impersonating Voldermort with polyjuice potion for instance.
It's all something to think on anyway:)
serophis
09-02-2007, 13:35
I've always thought that the plan was for Snape to kill Dumbledore so that Snape could be Harry's secret ally at the final showdown in DH. Remember, when they're telling the story after the attack, someone says to Harry that Snape had just awoken; that they thought he apparently didn't know of the attack.
I think that Snape expected an attack from outside, rather than within, and that they had expected Dumbledore to die a lot later on than this; but since they had just come down to it, Dumbledore ordered Severus to proceed as planned, albeit early. Remember, both are accomplished Legimens; to me it seems as if they were obviously conversing on the tower, and that Dumbledore's pleading "Severus..." was his vocal expression of his silent pleads for Snape to go ahead and do him in.
As far as Snape wanting to control the magical world; I think that he has actually turned to good; but that he is merely very, very bitter because he is so often misunderstood (similar to Karakaroff; remember that Sirius suspected him, and that it is said that you never stop being a DE). I think that Snape doesn't want to rule the world; but that he has separated himself from it out of his hatred for his own treatment.
Secret Seeker: I think that may bring up a very valid point I never saw before... We know that because of Voldy's horcruxes, he is able to anchor his soul on the earth. So what happens if dementors kiss him? Would they be able to keep his soul trapped for all eternity?
Also, if not, would Harry at least be able to use their efforts to remove the soul from a particularly difficult Horcrux, thus knocking yet another off the list?
jimbo716
09-02-2007, 22:59
I think it can all be boiled down into much simpler terms:
The most underlying theme throughout the entire story is Things aren't always, if ever, what they seem.
Snape is good. DD had been dead for at least most of HBP, probably all of it. Living dead seems to be a recurrng theme thru the entire book. The Weasley's are evil. There's too much evidence for that theroy to get into here, but it's easy enough to find in other posts.
This obvious question may have already been answered, it may be that I am being dense - but having just re-read HBP the question popped into my head:
"Why was draco sent to kill Dumbledore and not Harry"???
I realise that LV knew Dumbledore was after the Horcruxes because they fought over one of them at the beginning of the book, but throughout all of the books LV has been hell bent on killing Harry as a solution to all his problems.
Why wasn't Draco also ordered to kill Harry as well, that makes more sence.
I believe Snape did kill DD but it was all pre-planned. We may never know how or why, but DD is dead and Snape has had to flee and is now stuck on the wrong side. He must be very scared.
I can't figure that out either, why he wasn't sent to kill Harry.
And I can't figure out why Voldemort would have wanted Dumbledore dead, when in the prior book he had been in such a tizzy to get the prophecy, and Dumbledore is the one that heard it. Of course I think the Death Eaters snatched Professor Trelawny, but that isn't a guarenttee of learning anything.
OOh , I had forgotten about Trelawney! I remember thinking as Harry ran to get his cloak after seeing Dumbledore that he had left her standing in the hall by the Room Of Requirment. He told her to stay there, and then never returned !! Maybe that's where the story will go - they took Trelawney!!
Anybody elae think it's wierd that DD was the target and not Harry??
Well no one really thought Draco could do it, did they?
horcruxfinder
10-03-2007, 10:55
Draco was ordered to kill Dumbledore to get him out of the way. He has been protecting Harry for years and LV wants a clear shot at killing Harry. I have wondered why send someone to kill one of the two most powerful wizards when you must be nearly sure that he will not be able to do the job. This must have something to do with revenge for Lucius' failure in the dept of mysteries.
Yeh, that's true. I did think LV naver realy expected Draco to kill DD and that's where Snape comes in to do the job (which DD knew all about and was willing to go along with that's why he and Snape argues - Snape didn't really want to kill DD hence the look of hatred and revultion on his face when he did it) But why then did LV not also say "Oh yeh and by the way - do Harry in while ur at it" ??
I think LV wants to kill Harry himself - but surely this was the best chance he's ever had , why didn't he make an appearance himself?
Snape killed DD beacuse either he or DD had read Dracos mind (or his mother's at Spinner's End) and knew LV whole plan and DD knew he had to sacrafice himself to somehow help Harry.
vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.