Lily: Why Didn't She Have to Die?

[Weasleyfanforever]

"I always value bravery... Yes, boy, your parents were brave.... I killed your father first; and he put up a courageous fight... but your mother needn't have died... she was trying to protect you.... Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to have died in vain."

We all know that when Voldemort killed Lily and James, he told her to get out of the way. There has been much speculation that she was a Death Eater, but that was struck down by JKR. While re-reading PS/SS I ran across this passage. It is Voldemort again saying that Lily didn't have to die. He also specifically says "want her to have died in vain". Again, notice it is her, and not them... It is said that JKR only repeats something when it is important and we need to remember it. So why did Lily not have to die?

[Nagini]

I could just say that Voldemort was just after Harry and that is why he wasn't intending to kill Lily and that he only killed James because he duelled with him. But Voldemort was a mass murder and Lily and James were part of the Order, therefore making them targets for Voldemort and his Death Eaters anyway. Their deaths should have been meaningless and not something that he felt the need to pass onto Harry that his mother needn't have died.

Perhaps Lily knew of this old magic and decided to sacrifice herself willingly for her baby son?

The questions that I would then ask here are 1. How did Lily know? This old magic, it doesn't seem to be something that is widely known, old magic that lies forgotten, known only by those who know of its power. 2. Who told Lily about this old magic? This is perhaps one for the DiE thread. Did Dumbledore knowing the Prophecy tell Lily about the old magic as he needed the Prophecy to be carried out? Did he tell her, mentioning it casually, in passing so that when the moment came, Lily would know what would save her son? Perhaps Dumbledore told both Lily and Alic Longbottom?

There is of course the angle that Lily was working for Voldemort and was still going to be useful to him and that is why he did not wish to kill her. Voldemort never knowing love and never feeling love himself may not have understood that Lily would sacrifice herself for her child.

[catchthesnitch]

Here's some further speculation...

Perhaps there was some relationship -- I'm not saying romantic in the least, mind you -- but something between LV and Lily that LV did not wish for Lily to die. I can't speculate as to what that could have been.

I know JKR said that LV never loved anyone and never had any goodness in him, but I can't help but hear a twinge of regret from LV in that quote -- that Lily needn't have died.

I think that's the only time I've heard/read LV say something like that -- otherwise its death and destruction all around for LV, no matter who gets in the way no matter the cost. Its just odd that LV would say here that someone didn't have to die to further his own cause.

[Tinkerbell]

I can't help but think this may have something to do with Snape?

I think he was there in Godrics Hollow with Voldemort, and perhaps he struck a deal with Snape that he would not kill Lily, and it was therefore not his intention, but because she 'got in the way' he did it anyway, cos he is an evil old beggar!!

[Kingsley]

I think the Snaoe part is a good angle but I still dont see "V" caring about anyone or saying anything with regret--
Maybe its because he made Harry an orphan like he was and he became sentimental :rolleyes:

[Alz]

Looking at the plausible first then ....

James had to die - he wasn't about to let his wife and son be attacked by the most evil wizard of all time - especially since he knew that the baby was a target ...
Voldemort couldn't leave him alive - it would have been to unpredictable to have him laying around ...

Well Harry, there is no need to figure him into this - he was destine to die according to Voldemort - just didn't go to well in the execution ...

So now we are left with Lily ...
My first impressions would have been for Voldemort to leave her alive - to live with the fact her Son and husband were dead - to live through the despair and loneliness of surviving when all she loved died .. that seems very Voldemort especially since they defied him three times ...

I will rest there and let other have a bash - but I will be back :)

[Kingsley]

Voldemorts whole life, he has been uncaring for almost everyone--he killed his own family and countless others--to actually show remorse towards the mother of his prophecized enemy is a big deal--think back to cedric being killed just for being a "spare"

So we have a known member of the order who was protecting Harry her son--why was this anything different?--
We have 3 known facts so far
--JKR says Voldemort never loved anyone
--Voldemort is not a liar and has said that Lily didnt have to die
--Lily felt sorry for Snape

[Nagini]

Voldemorts whole life, he has been uncaring for almost everyone--he killed his own family and countless others--to actually show remorse towards the mother of his prophecized enemy is a big deal--think back to cedric being killed just for being a "spare"

So we have a known member of the order who was protecting Harry her son--why was this anything different?--
We have 3 known facts so far
--JKR says Voldemort never loved anyone
--Voldemort is not a liar and has said that Lily didnt have to die
--Lily felt sorry for Snape

I agree that JKR did say that Voldemort has never loved anyone - so is he therefore not able to understand the bond between mother and child? But still wouldn't explain why Lily was left alive of course.

Lily felt sorry for Snape whilst James and Sirius were picking on him at school. But if he was a Death Eater and she was in the Order then they were enemies and I am guess the sympathy vote would have disapeared long before that night.


So now we are left with Lily ...
My first impressions would have been for Voldemort to leave her alive - to live with the fact her Son and husband were dead - to live through the despair and loneliness of surviving when all she loved died .. that seems very Voldemort especially since they defied him three times ...

Yes, agreed that, that would be crueller than killing her. But then he could have done that with James too - either Lily or James could have tried to track Voldemort down and tried to kill him so it doesn't really explain why he was willing to let her live.

I thought perhaps she had information that he wanted and perhaps he was planning on using Ligimens (sp?) - but that just seems lame.

[Boing]

The only thought I have on Voldemort leaving Lily alive to feel more regret, remorse, depression, etc., is that he has said himself that he can't envision a fate worse than death. So in my mind, he wouldn't have been able to fathom what it would be like for Lily to live without her loved ones as he has never loved himself.

I have to agree with the others that think there was more to the relationship than meets the eye or something about Lily that made him think twice about killing her or made someone else convince him to spare her.

[Alz]

I posted something in Wild Speculation that touches upon this in a great way - Snape Specualtion ....
I know what you are saying about he has never felt love - but still cant but help feel he was being evil as he does so well ... but it is speculative and personal opinion ...

I think James had to die so Voldemort could get in the door - but well from then on it gets hazy .... but plenty of room for speculation!

[Weasleyfanforever]

The only thought I have on Voldemort leaving Lily alive to feel more regret, remorse, depression, etc., is that he has said himself that he can't envision a fate worse than death. So in my mind, he wouldn't have been able to fathom what it would be like for Lily to live without her loved ones as he has never loved himself.

I totally agree here, and think that this was really well said. Voldemort has said before that there is nothing worse than death, so he wouldn't understand how this could be. He wouldn't understand Lily's greif, so I don't see that as being a reason that he would have left her alive. I also agree that Voldemort would never know the kind of pain that she would go through, because he has never loved or been loved. OK, I posted a thread that is kind of related to this one in Wild Speculation if anyone wants to take a look...

[Boing]

Back on to the topic here, which is a very valid and puzzling question: Why didn't Lily have to die?

I have been puzzled about this since re-reading the dementor scenes and trying to make sense of them. At first I thought, what if there was someone else in the room Voldemort was talking to? What if there was a relative or friend or something that was a girl that he told to get out of the way? Then it just seemed like Voldemort thought of her as a silly girl.

But then, Voldemort himself says that she didn't have to die. This absolutely confuses me as it has been mentioned before that he just kills indiscriminately. So, my thoughts are as follows: Perhaps Voldemort had a vague idea about the old magic that would protect Harry. Perhaps he knew that if Lily died while she was trying to protect Harry that something would happen - perhaps not to the extent that it actually did, but something along those lines. I think it plausible - didn't Dumbledore or even Voldemort himself say that Voldemort had underestimated the power of the old magic? So by using the word "underestimate" it would appear that he had actually considered it, however briefly.

Does that make sense?

[Kingsley]

Ok I just thought about this for awhile and it came to me
Voldemort doesnt understand anything worse than death--Lily gave her life for Harry
Well what if Voldemort was not understanding her sacrifice--she didnt have to die because all she had to do was let harry get killed--his life instead of hers---Voldemort would never ever sacrifice his life for anyone's --so a sacrifice seems downright stupid to him
Maybe thats why he was saying she didnt have to die :rolleyes:

[Boing]

Okay, I can see that, but then why doesn't he want to kill her that night? He tells her to step aside. Even then, it just seems weird because Voldemort doesn't leave people around - we even heard that people's families were wiped out all at once. Since he couldn't understand suffering, he wouldn't understand what it would be for her to watch her son killed and then he wouldn't have said she didn't need to die later - he would have just killed her anyway after Harry was dead. I think there's something more to this than him just trying to show that her death was (to him) pointless . . .

[Alz]

You know Kinger made a great point - she didnt have to die because in his mind it was a stupid sacrifice - give up precious life and choose death just to save someone else ... it actually does make a great deal of sense in that context!

But a great counter point by Boing - he offeredn her to stand aside ... but still I am seeing above!
He really cant see why she would want to loose her life!
But then the killer point is at the end - Voldemort and Death Eaters dont leave witnesses behind ... they kill everyone ...
Still unanswered really :(

[Jenelle]

Is it possible that weither or not Voldemort wanted to kill Lily, her old magic that everyone talks about is the Protego Spell? Its the protection spell...?

[Boing]

You know what I just realized? This is another instance when JKR mentions things multiple times - perhaps to underscore the point that it is important that Voldemort thinks Lily didn't have to die.

I just realized this thread was started with a quote from PS/SS, but doesn't Voldemort mention it again? Perhaps in GoF? I've going to have to go and check, but someone else, if you know the answer, please post it. This could show us that JKR is trying to tell us there is more to this.

[Alz]

In the graveyard part of GoF - Voldemort does recap somewhat ... but it was more emphasising the 'old magic' that he had underestimated - and what cost him is body ... perhaps that is what you meant?
I think I have seen it mentioned elsewhere - just not exactly sure ...

Jenelle, did you want to expand on that some more, I am interested :D

[Jenelle]

Well Blaise, I was looking at some spells that are on this site and that one just caught my interest. The protection spell....it deflects spells off of another person...isnt that what happened to Harry, he got the blunt force but only got a scar and Voldemort got most of it...I think that she did use this spell however, being that Voldemort was so strong Harry did get hurt somewhat...Maybe part of the Protego spell is that you have to sacrafice yourself, maybe thats why James' sacrafice didnt do it, because he didnt do the spell because he didnt have time...I donno this is just my thoughts. I will try and find somemore about it...Do you know who put that spell on the site or where it came from in the books?

[Weasleyfanforever]

Maybe part of the Protego spell is that you have to sacrafice yourself, maybe thats why James' sacrafice didnt do it, because he didnt do the spell because he didnt have time...

Order of the Pheonix is the only time I found "Protego" in the books, and it doesn't seem that the person casting the spell has to give anything of themselves. Harry is never mentioned having to give anything of himself, and in the last instance it is Bellatrix that casts the spell, and I am not sure she would have anything left to give...

Yet he could also see Snape standing in front of him, his eyes fixed on Harry's face, muttering under his breath… and somehow, Snape was growing clearer, and the Dementors were growing fainter…
Harry raised his own wand. 'Protego!'
Snape staggered - his wand flew upwards, away from Harry -and suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his...

The words were hardly out of his mouth when the female Death Eater shrieked: 'Accto proph—'
Harry was just ready for her: he shouted 'Protego!' before she had finished her spell, and though the glass sphere slipped to the tips of his fingers he managed to cling on to it.

She reacted so fast he barely had time to duck. `Protego!'
The jet of red light, his own Stunning Spell, bounced back at him. Harry scrambled back behind the fountain and one of the goblin's ears went flying across the room.

[Jenelle]

Ok I wasnt sure, I have only read that book once, then it was stollen from me :(, I am more familiar with the others, I'll have to get another copy!

[Kingsley]

Ok so there are really 2 points to look at now
Why would he have planned on leaving a witness?
More specifically why would he ASK Lily to stand aside?

I can only speculate on the first point--if Harry was killed, everything is over, the last precaution Voldemort needed to ensure immortality has been accomplished--the prophecy said it is the only way for Voldemort to die is from Harry, Voldemort kills Harry
Then it wouldnt matter if Lily was dead or not-- :cool:

[Alz]

You know this little puppy has been asleep for a little while so I figured I would raise it ....
I personally would love to know why Voldemort asked Lily to step aside - and well even though I kinda convinced myself it was because he wanted to be an evil so and so and leave her alive - I cant help but given all the speculation about 'we will hear something big about Lily' that we may see a side to a Potter that we didnt expect ;)

[Boing]

Yeah, see, I don't believe in the idea that Voldemort could have actually understood that it might be so bad for Lily to live instead of die. And, if he did, he would have said something about it like, "I'm going to kill your husband and only child and leave you here to live a life of mourning and solitude." Well, something like that . . . :p

But, he didn't, he told her to "step aside" and called her a "silly girl". And when he was talking to Harry and the DEs in GoF he specifically said that Lily didn't have to die - he didn't say that he was going to leave her alive, but that she didn't HAVE to die. Like she had a choice.

I'm really hoping we'll find out more about this and I think we will because JKR has brought it up in a couple of books now without fully explaining it.

[Alz]

Well see what me thinks even more is that there has always been a rumour we will find out something big about Lily - and just the whole stand aside thing just makes me so sure she was some connections to Voldemort in some capacity.
If this was the thrice defied - he would have made sure he made amends and killed her with no chat - but he didnt - he tells her to stand aside .... you have to wonder why someone who seems to like killing whole familes would offer Lily a chance to live ...

[Hermione]

I don't think Voldemort intended to spare Lily to make her live in grief, as he who has never loved doesn't know what it feels like to have loved and lost.

Here is a side question, why is Harry the one? Why is he the one who will be able to slay Voldemort? Harry is, as his parent's child, half of his mother and half of his father. My guess is there is something in this half of his mother, that we will find out about.

Perhaps, and this is wild speculation, Voldemort wants someone to love. Maybe he wanted Lily to bear him a child, an heir to his evil thrown. He would at last have someone to love, someone to pass all his knowledge to. They could conquer the world together...
I'm thinking of Dr. Evil and Mini Me. :p

[Alz]

You know Voldemort is like Mid to late 60's and Lily was early 20's when she died?
That is like really ewwww no matter how you look at it!
There is no chance he fancied her and just wanted her to bear his heir - I think he had much happiness of being the last Decendant of Salazar!
No - that is just plain wrong - that is no way gonna happen - but still will give you credit for the sick nature of that post ;)
There is a reason Voldemort was willing to spare her - because as we know he usually slays whole familes during an attack - and to tell her to stand aside - means he didnt want to kill her - then later he even said she need'nt had died ... very interesting me thinks - looks at whatever link there is - well it is between Lily and Voldemort ...

[Sirius Potter Fan]

OK, I was puzzling this myself, and had started a new thread not knowing about this one. (sorry Blaise! :o I was spelling Lily wrong on the search) anyway, after reading all this, it seems there is still no clue to a real answer.

I am afraid however, that not only do I not have an answer, I fear I have more to add to the confusion as to "why would Voldemort spare Lily?"

Voldemort's whole regime was to purify the wizard blood lines. He hated muggle borns, had even started trying to vanquish them before he left Hogwarts. AND even though he himself is a half blood, he despises them as well. SO now here is another log in this puzzling fire...Lily was a "Mudblood" she was muggleborn. Lily was someone Voldemort would have killed seeing them on the street just for that, let alone that she had thrice defied him, let alone that he destroyed whole families, let alone that he knew of nothing worse than death, let alone that she was in the way of him killing Harry etc. AND by specificaly telling Harry that by killing Harry his mother's death would have been in vain, to me really shows just a hint of regret, that he REALLY did not want to kill her, and, it almost seems that at this point (in PS/SS) Voldemort is reluctant to kill Harry as well. If Harry had handed over the stone, would Voldemort have allowed Harry to live as well?

My only speculation as to a possibility of why Voldemort offered to allow Lily to "step aside" was that if a mother would abandon her child for him to kill perhaps Voldemort thought he could turn, or use her. But that just doesn't seem to float in my opinion. And...Voldemort calls her a "silly girl"...that almost seems "familiar" does it not? It seems almost that he knew, or had known her at some point previously.

Hopefully in 78 days, we will get an answer...or at least a clue! :p

[Alz]

Things we do know is that they arent related - darn JKR - I liked that option till she scuppered it a while ago :rolleyes:

But they have crossed paths before - remember the thrice defied - I think that there holds the biggest clues as to why he might have spared her ...
I think that somewhere along the line she either impressed or scared him - that is why I think he spared her - either that or he was just wanting to be plain mean!
I think I liked the suggestion about the males having to die - i think that although there is no real weight to it as far as prophecy etc - it would seem like he just wanted to kill the boys.

[Boing]

I do think there must be more to this than him just wanting to be mean. Lily is a Muggle-born and therefore, lowest on the food chain in Voldemort's eyes. She's not pure or even half-blood, so it seems he would want her to die. He has shown no mercy that we have ever seen, so it would seem that there was something special about Lily that she didn't have to die.

I think Blaise might be on to something - it could be something that happened during one of (or because of one of) the thrice-defied moments.

[Alz]

You see the logic behind why she should die - but he really never had it in his mind.
He tells her to stand aside the whole lot - he states later on she didnt have to die - he just didnt want to kill her.
For someone who would kill whole families of the target who stood in his way - this just seems so irrational!

I am racking my brains to what it could be - because I believe it to be significant and also another part of the septology.

[Fortescue]

I know it's not a very popular theory, but I think it had to do somewhat with the idea that James and Harry are the last descendents of Godric Gryffindor. It makes sense really. Since Lily is not of the Gryffindor bloodline she didn't need to die as Voldemort, being the shallow, one-leveled thinker he is was only thinking of doing away with the Gryffindor blood.

In the World Book Day chat 3/4/04, JKR hinted at Harry's possible relation to Gryffindor:

Jami: Is Harry related to Godric Gryffindor?
JK Rowling replies -> People are always wondering who Harry might be related to. Maybe he is ;)

Always before when someone has speculated if Harry is related to Voldemort, Dumbledore, etc. she squashed the rumor, but this time she did not. Pretty good evidence in my mind.

[jburden]

hmm....Its kind of wierd.

what happens if he was making up the part about him hating muggles just for the purpose of getting followers?

hmm...*hint hint*

I should say Hitler right here. What happens if he wanted to rid of the godric bloodline, so he had to gain supporters. by saying he hated muggles, he would then gain support, therefore was feared. Then by using this fear, he went after the godric decendents, and thinking lily would be no threat. But because everything backlashed, he then as a spirit said. "now i dispise godric AND muggle bloodlines"


yar....what you think?

[Sirius Potter Fan]

No, don't think it floats, Voldemort killed at a whim, just because they were there. He killed Cedric just for being there, and he wasn't a Gryffindor. I think the only answer to this one, is just something that JKR has yet to reveal to us. There are just enough clues to make us curious, but not enough to stand a chance at figuring it out. And, I don't think it is Muggles he hates so much, as muggle born wizards, or half bloods. He only hated his muggle father because he ditched him and his mom. I think if it were muggles he hated in general, he would have already taken care of all of them :eek: I mean, they are unsuspecting, and can't fight back!

[Fortescue]

hmm....Its kind of wierd.

what happens if he was making up the part about him hating muggles just for the purpose of getting followers?

hmm...*hint hint*

I should say Hitler right here. What happens if he wanted to rid of the godric bloodline, so he had to gain supporters. by saying he hated muggles, he would then gain support, therefore was feared. Then by using this fear, he went after the godric decendents, and thinking lily would be no threat. But because everything backlashed, he then as a spirit said. "now i dispise godric AND muggle bloodlines"


yar....what you think?

Being the last descendant of Slytherin, I'm sure Voldemort would despise the last descendant of Gryffindor without having a big reason to, simply because by Salazar Slytherin leaving Hogwarts because he didn't get to bar Muggleborns from entrance, he denied all that followed in his bloodline from being a part of the running of the school. Thus, the reason for the Chamber of Secrets. He had to have a way to leave his mark and influence on the school. Probably any descendants before Tom Riddle were kept from attending the school because all the Slytherin descendants between Salazar and Tom Riddle thought they were to good to associate and learn with those who were not Pure-Bloods. Tom came along and didn’t have any other options if he wanted to learn magic.

Even though Tom was a Muggleborn, he was not considered a Mudblood because he had one parent with magic blood, therefore, he surely thought he was better to an extent than Lily because, to our knowledge, she had no magic blood in her bloodline. If Voldemort tried to not only fulfill the prophecy by attacking the Potters that night, but to rid the Wizarding world of the last of the Gryffindors, then he probably was focusing on that and that alone.

[Alz]

..and so he lets the mother of the child he is about to kill, live, because he is more intent on killing the boy?
Nope - that doesnt fly - he would have known that Lily wasnt about to lay down and let him kill the boy - afterall he had to kill James just to get that close to them both.
Nope - there is a reason she didnt have to die - there is a reason he gave her the chance to live - and there is a connection between them all from the 'thrice defied' - and thus that is why Lily was given the chance to live.
The question we should ask was what born that compassion from Voldemort?
Afterall - he doesnt know love etc - has no real emotions apart from hatred - even then you have to question does he actually feel it ...
She still represented a threat - a mudblood he could have erradicted but he didnt ... well not till he was really pushed ...
Hey I dont have the answers but you really need to look at the evidence at hand and I think the Sly/Gry inheritance isnt a deciding factor in it - because that would have been another reason to erradicate her!

[Sirius Potter Fan]

Just another thought here that has occured to me.

Some feel that Voldemort was offering to spare Lily on Snape's request. But for what ever reason, he did indeed offer her to stand aside (of course what mother would?) but when she refused, why kill her? Why not stun her, or otherwise incompacitate her so he could leave her alive yet still get to Harry? Since he did it that way, it causes me to second guess on whether he was offering to spare her on someone elses request but for some other reason we haven't figured out yet.

Then again, Voldemort speaks of it being her sacrifice that saves Harry, but he hadn't thought of that (obviously or he would have just stunned her.) But, had someone else thought of that? someone close to him that he would trust, but that was actualy on the other side. someone that might have remembered that "old magic" and would have known that even given the oportunity to step aside, Lily would have sacrificed herself to save her son, and thus give him the protection he would need to eventualy come back and destroy Voldemort for good?

So, perhaps, it was indeed at someone's request that Voldemort offered to spare her, but not asked in order to save Lily, but with the intention of saving Harry.

[secret seeker]

Voldemort didn't want to split his soul more than was neccesary, but that would mean he has / had an 8 part soul, because he also murdered Frank Bryce in the Riddle manor, wouldn't it? ...
The books state that Voldemort killed Frank, whereas Dumbledore believed Nagini did it.
The " killing " rips the soul, not the Horcrux construction.

SiriusPotterFan, just read your previous post, and it is excellent, and does make perfect sense, to me at least. Sounds just like a J.K.R. twist.

I don't think Voldemort wanted to spare her life, he just didn't want to kill her. Similar to Harry and Wormtail in the Shrieking shack in P.o.A. .

[Sir Cadogan]

I don't think Voldemort wanted to spare her life, he just didn't want to kill her. Similar to Harry and Wormtail in the Shrieking shack in P.o.A. .

"Similar to Harry and Wormtail"? You can't be serious.


Wormtail deserved punishment - Lily hadn't done anything wrong.
It wasn't Harry who was going to kill Wormtail, but Harry stopped his friends.
Harry didn't want Wormtail killed, but punished by law. Voldemort despises such things as "law" or "justice".
Harry felt that his father wouldn't have wanted his best friends to become killers, even if it was in revenge of his death. Voldemort didn't "feel" any such concern for anybody, for all we know.

[secret seeker]

You misunderstand me, Sir cadogan.
Harry wasn't bothered if Wormtail died, he just didn't want his friends to become murderers as you said, but, Harry didn't want to spare Wormtails life FOR Wormtail, but for his friends, and to prove Sirius's innocence.
I'm not saying all the circumstances are IDENTICAL, but SIMILAR. Doh!.
You say Lily hadn't done anything wrong, but, you are just seeing it from the perspective J.K.R. wants you to see!. Ask Voldemort if she had done anything wrong and he would say " She gave birth to my future doom ".
So, from Voldemorts point of view, she had done wrong, hadn't she?.
Try to stay open-minded, please.

[Sir Cadogan]

You misunderstand me, Sir cadogan.
Harry wasn't bothered if Wormtail died, he just didn't want his friends to become murderers as you said, but, Harry didn't want to spare Wormtails life FOR Wormtail, but for his friends, and to prove Sirius's innocence.
I'm not saying all the circumstances are IDENTICAL, but SIMILAR. Doh!.
You're right - but still: Harry *thinks* about whether Wormtail's life should be taken, whereas LV doesn't care in the least.
You say Lily hadn't done anything wrong, but, you are just seeing it from the perspective J.K.R. wants you to see!. Ask Voldemort if she had done anything wrong and he would say " She gave birth to my future doom ".
So, from Voldemorts point of view, she had done wrong, hadn't she?.
Try to stay open-minded, please.
I beg to differ. Being open-minded does not mean accepting evil arguments at the same value as reasonable arguments. Additionally, LV did not act against Lily to punish her for "doing wrong", but in order to defend himself in his usual, ruthless manner. LV doesn't know any "right" or "wrong", he just distinguishes between what suits his purposes and what doesn't.
There is a fundamental difference between people with moral principles and people without. To call LV's contempt for human values *his* morals is inappropriate and hasn't got anything to do with open-mindedness.

No offence meant, secret seeker - I'm not attacking you personally, I just don't agree with your views here (if I understood you correctly).

[secret seeker]

Thankyou for pointing that out, Sir cadogan, and I am man enough to admit when I am wrong.
You make a valid point and manage to systematicaly tear my argument apart, at the same time. Well done.
There is no point me even trying to argue any furthur, because it would be il-logical.
I have been bested Noble sir, but live to fight another day! ...

I love this site!!!!;)

[Sir Cadogan]

Oh-ho, secret seeker: such nobleness shining through, sir ;-)
I'm looking forward to our fight "another day" :-))

[Rory]

I can only think of one reason why Lily didn't HAVE to die.
Lily alive was worth more to Voldemort than Lily dead.
So what, or who, would Lily alive gain him, that Lily dead would not?
Or what would killing Lily lose him, that Lily alive would not?
And why might that be?

[Arwan]

This is a hard one! I think that someone would have had to beg Voldemort and promise him something else in return that he wanted more, in order to spare Lily. We know he wouldn't do it selflessly only to gain something and when Lily refused he simply killed her to get her out of the way of his goal. of course this theory only adds more questions like who begged and what would Voldemort want that he couldn't get for himself.

[Glumbumble]

Lily had to have the choice because that invoked the protection for Harry. After the event both the Diary Tom Riddle and the reborn Voldemort remember this as a Countercurse and as Old Magic respectively. My guess is that Dumbledore also knew this and somehow, probably through Snape but possibly through Wormtail, got Voldemort to offer to spare Lily in return for the information that they gave him.
Lily was never going to stand aside, as no mother would, so Dumbledore could be sure that once Voldemort had made the offer of life Lily would turn it down.

[serophis]

As far as Lily not having to die...if you remember, Voldemort does not always go around killing every single person in existence. At the end of book 5 when he tried to get the prophecy, you didn't see him go out on a determined quest to kill every single member of the Ministry that was there; when Voldemort is on a mission, he goes for just that.

I think that, had Lily stepped aside, Voldemort would have killed Harry and then left, and that would have been the end of it. I don't think any mother would consider doing this of course, but it definitely set up the scenario where she did not have to die, but made a willing choice to stand in front of Harry and defend him.

I think that love is not the only power that Voldemort is defeated by: Choice is another: Lily's choice to die for Harry, Harry's choice to fight Voldemort. It was choice that caused Harry to participate in the prophecy, and I believe choice that will bring Voldemort down in the end.

I don't think that there was any special reason why Voldemort would have let Lily live...I just don't think that he had a real motivation to kill her at the time. Dumbledore, on the other hand, knew that James and Lily would choose to fight, and as a result acted to hide them in Godric's Hollow.

[Alz]

Voldemort didn't want to split his soul more than was neccesary, but that would mean he has / had an 8 part soul, because he also murdered Frank Bryce in the Riddle manor, wouldn't it? ...
The books state that Voldemort killed Frank, whereas Dumbledore believed Nagini did it.
The " killing " rips the soul, not the Horcrux construction.

SiriusPotterFan, just read your previous post, and it is excellent, and does make perfect sense, to me at least. Sounds just like a J.K.R. twist.

I don't think Voldemort wanted to spare her life, he just didn't want to kill her. Similar to Harry and Wormtail in the Shrieking shack in P.o.A. .

Actually this come back to a thread I discussed restricted killing.
Given all the people he killed - you have to assume that the only time a horcrux becomes a horcrux is when he does what he has to do seal it. The killings taking place in between just serve to rip his soul many time but the act of creating the horcrux is what makes the difference.
What I mean to say - he may use a specific killing to seal a horcrux - but I think he didnt just kill 5 times before the thwarted attempt on Harry.
We know he killed James and Lily - so that would not become a 1 to 1 relationship between killing and horcruxes.
Phew - does that make any sense?

[Sirius Potter Fan]

Curious idea here though Alz (welcome back btw) Killing rips the soul . . . every time you kill . . . but deciding to make and seal a Horcrux, does it use just the last bit from the last killing? can you choose which bit? or does it just take all the torn bits present? My guess is just the last bit. I think that over time, if the bit's aren't used to make a horcrux they rejoin and the soul can become whole again. Otherwise you could have a DE running around who doesn't know about Horcruxes with his soul in 15 pieces floating around inside . . . but . . . hmmmm . . . that doesn't quite float in my mind. It makes more sense now that I think about it, that the torn bit if unused dies. That is why those who kill again and again seem "souless".

[Glumbumble]

I have proposed before, maybe even in this thread, that that when the soul fragment is not encapsulated there is some form of reunion of the two fragments, otherwise you are right SPF, there would be many Death Eaters, in addition to Voldemort, wandering around with 10's, if not 100's or 1000's of soul fragments floating all over the place.
The only logical process is a reuniting of the soul, and I think that this explains why the Aurors, and Dumbledore himself, do not have fragmented souls. They may well have damaged souls even if they believed that the killing they committed was just.

[serophis]

I have a question that this thread's title inspired: how long was it in between the time James died that Lily died? In other words, JKR said that Harry was sitting in a cot when his parents died. It had been a week since they'd gone into hiding at least (see book 3: the discussion about the Fidelius curse with Rosemerta, macgonagall, hagrid, etc.)...why was Harry in a cot instead of in a crib or basonet?

We know from Book 3 as well (see the dementor attack on Harry when he hears his father telling his wife to hurry because LV was coming) that they saw LV coming...what if they knew he was on his way, James went hunting LV to catch him before he came near Godric's Hollow, he was killed, Dumbledore found his body, took the invisibility cloak, and arrived at the Potters' location just a bit too late.

I know, I know, seems a bit farfetched. But think about it: You had a multitude of spies working for LV, and the Fidelius charm was used to ensure that only one person knew the whereabouts of the Potters...but Hagrid, DD and Sirius all happen upon the exploded house where they are located?

Personally, I theorize that the Potters were taken to a hidden location different from the Hollow. They found out that Wormtail had gone bad somehow, and escaped to Godric's Hollow hoping they could send an owl to DD from there alerting him of their need. LV had already been to the Hollow, and destroyed the house in his frustration. James realized that LV was coming and attacked lv under cover of the Cloak so as to be able to better dodge the AK curse, but eventually was overpowered. His body was then found by DD, who took his body back to the Hollow where he found Lily dead and the house exploded. This would of course explain how DD came across James' cloak...he quite possibly pocketed it to keep it from being stolen by the onlookers at the Hollow.

Now you see why my wife normally takes the computer away after midnight...I get just a bit too loopy and start seeing more conspiracies than Moody when the sun goes down :P . But before you refute all of it, I bet nobody else can tell me how when only one Secret Keeper existed, DD, Hagrid and Sirius all happened upon the place where the Potters were hiding within minutes or hours after their death?

Edit: Oh yeah, forgot...notice how surprised Lupin was that James' voice was heard by Harry? Perhaps someone else was there as a protector, and James had already been killed earlier? We know he didn't murder anyone else between the two due to the priori incantatem scene, but it certainly does change the scene just a little bit.

[Rory]

why was Harry in a cot instead of in a crib or basonet?

"Cot" is used in the UK , as "Crib" is used in the US. A small bed with high bars around the sides.

[serophis]

I did a bit of research before I went to sleep last night and found that as well. It still doesn't disprove it, though.

It's just that...well JKR has made it pretty clear that there's something she hadn't told us about the Potters' death; when she talks about why his mom's sacrifice saved him, not his dad's, she says it is because of his mindset...but she also says that this is only part of the answer.

There *has* to be something here we're not seeing. Could his father have been killed already and an auror or someone else been sent to help protect her? We don't know for sure that the male voice Harry heard was James; could have been anyone he hasn't met yet (or even someone he has met before but that might sound different now). Could DD have been there, somehow got disarmed early, and tried to get Lily to run, and that is why he said what he did when he drank the potion? Could it have been Wormtail, who according to the third book has a kinda weird voice since he hasn't spoken in awhile? Could it have been Snape? A younger Moody or Lupin?

[happy_hannah]

this had been speculated in another forum, but it is my belief that voldemort gave lily the opportunity to live (even for a few minutes) just to see if she would give up her son, as his mum had given up on him, so he probably wondered if all mothers were like his

[peanutgal1]

Ok I just thought about this for awhile and it came to me
Voldemort doesnt understand anything worse than death--Lily gave her life for Harry
Well what if Voldemort was not understanding her sacrifice--she didnt have to die because all she had to do was let harry get killed--his life instead of hers---Voldemort would never ever sacrifice his life for anyone's --so a sacrifice seems downright stupid to him
Maybe thats why he was saying she didnt have to die :rolleyes:

For that matter, James didn't have to die. He stayed at the door while yelling that Lily should get Harry and run. Therefore, he also sacrificed himself.

[Rory]

JKR has said that LV was planning on killing both James and Harry. That's why James death didn't protect Harry. Because he had todie anyway. LV offered Lilly the chance to live, but she chose to shield Harry. That's why her death protected him.