View Full Version : Did R.A.B. fake his death?
SnarkologyMajor
19-12-2005, 06:41
I have to point out first that I'm convinced R.A.B. is Regulus Black.:D The writing in his note is very similar to Sirius's, the initial B. matches up in all the different languages HBP is printed in, and I for one believe the only reason J.K.R. mentions Uncle Alphard-is to give us a clue to R.A.B.'s middle name. In her TLC/Mugglenet interview she has this to say about R.A.B. being Regulus Black-
JKR-"Well, I think that would be, um, a fine guess."
MA- And perhaps, being Sirius's brother, he had another mirror-
JKR-(drums fingers on soda can).....
JKR-I have no comment at all on that mirror. That mirror is not on the table.
She also says-
MA- Forgive me if I'm remembering incorrectly, but was Regulus the one who was murdered by Voldemort-
JKR- Well Sirius said he wouldn't have been because he wasn't important enough remember?
MA-But that doesn't have to be true, if R.A.B. is writing Voldemort a personal note.
JKR-That doesn't necessarily show that Voldemort killed him, personally, but Sirius himself suspected that Regulus got in a little too deep. Like Draco. He was attracted to it, but the reality of what it meant was way too much to handle.
Oh, how did you feel about Lupin/Tonks.
OK- to me she practically admitted that R.A.B. was Regulus and then when she realized this-she immediately changed the subject!Also on her website she said that the mirror on one hand will not help Harry as much as you think-but on the other hand it will help more than you think.(Brilliant) I think she means that it won't help Harry w/ Sirius, but it will help Harry w/Regulus.
If you look at the line in his note that says-
"I know I will be dead long before you read this" and "I face death in the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more"
I feel that Jo wants us to think that Regulus knows Voldemort will kill him when he finds out what he has done-but that doesn't make sense, since we know that Voldemort didn't find out Regulus stole his horcrux because the fake one was still in the cave. Also, considering that Regulus did have in his possesion a horcrux-does it make any sense that Voldemort supposedly killed him because he backed out? You would think if that was the case-Regulus would have been swinging the locket in Voldemort's face saying-I don't think you want to do that! Or something along those lines,:D I feel Regulus was planning his faked death and covering all the bases.
Some feel that she wouldn't go down this route again-but we already know that she has used it more than once and since we didn't have a big reveal in Books 5 and 6, I think she's leading up to a huge one. I don't think we can take Sirius's word on this because we have to remember that Voldemort was breaking into Harry's head and could have been listening, also Jo said that Sirius was a little unhinged and had a case of arrested development.
Dumbledore's Kreacher test is very suspicious if we look at these quotes-
US HBP-pg. 29 "They were joined, as you very well know, by half the Order before long!" snarled Bellatrix. "And while we are on the subject of the Order, you still claim you cannot reveal the whereabouts of their headquarters, don't you?"
"I am not the Secret-Keeper; I cannot speak the name of the place...."
This very clearly demonstrates that Bella does not know where headquarters are,and that the fidelius charm still holds!Compare this to-
US HBP-pg. 50 "Well, obviously we would prefer that she didn't get it either," said Dumbledore calmly. "The situation is fraught with complications. We don't know whether the enchantments we ourselves placed upon it, for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that ownership has passed from Sirius's hands. It might be that Bellatrix will arrive on the doorstep at any moment."
Not only does Bella not know as evidenced by what she said to Snape earlier, but Dumbledore completely neglects to mention the most pertinant fact that he is The Secret Keeper. Now I'm speculating here-but I think the real reason for the Kreacher test is that Dumbledore isn't sure if Sirius dying is going to cause Regulus's cover to be blown. We still don't know exactly how the house-elves bondage works and if Regulus faked his death-Kreacher may have found out w/Sirius's death.
The names Sirius and Regulus themselves are very significant and I have alot of that on the R.A.B. thread-but I'd like to repeat a few-
Regulus is another name for Raphael and is listed as on of the "Four Royal Stars" which represent the four highest archangels. Raphael/Regulus is the third horseman of the Apocolypse and he rides a BLACK horse. He is also called "The Heart of the Lion". And some scientists have discovered that Venus and Jupiter aligned with Regulus in 3 B.C. was probably the Star of Bethlehem and that there hasn't been anything that bright in the 2,000 yrs. since.
Sirius is a binary star system with the second dwarf star called Sirius 2.
We know from Firenze and the centaurs that the answers are in the stars. At least I think J.K.R. was giving us clues with that. We also have double B's used alot in all 6 books-they could be hints to 2 Blacks. Now I'm not saying for sure that Regulus and Sirius are twins, but we also seem to have alot of twins in the series. In any case I'm making a BIG guess and saying that I think they were swapping places in the books. The best example of why I think this is in GOF
US GOF-pg 521- Sirius was wearing ragged gray robes; the same ones he had been wearing when he left Azkaban.
Why in the world would he even still have those(I would have burned them)
US GOF-pg. 525 "She's got the measure of Crouch better than you have, Ron. If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals"
This sounds nothing like the Sirius we get in OOTP! There are plenty more instances of inconsistencies w/Sirius but this is long enough!(Sorry:o ) Believe it or not I pared this spec down! Hope everyone can trudge though it and tell me what you think!:D
Wow - you just threw it all out there didnt you :D
Nice thread BTW :D
Ok, where to start ... I want to start with the subject matter and title - and yes I think there is evidence that perhaps his death was planned and maybe staged - but in essence it wasnt real ...
His note seems clinical in approach - but also confuses me ...
He states by the time Voldemort reads it - he will already be dead ... but why would he be dead - not like Voldemort suspected that RAB has taken a horcrux right ... because if so he would have the note and the faked Horcrux ...
This suggests that something else was to happen that would point him towards checking that horcrux - but by the time he looked there the person that wrote it would defo be dead right ... but see there has to be a link on a link here - something to force Voldemort to go check the horcrux and to also see a note from someone who knew they would be dead by that time ...
That is why I am unsure of how straight forward this is and also the identity ...
If Voldemort had Regulus killed - on what grounds would it be?
If it was because he suspected he found one of his horcruxes - wouldnt he have gone to check them all and then see the note?
No - the person that wrote this note wanted to die in a manner that would cause Voldemort to go check his horcruxes - like make some kind of clue or hint ...
This is often why I wondered if Longbottom night have done it - DE's torchered them but didnt kill them - this suggested that what they knew couldnt be lost - and the DE's were sent to Longbottoms to find out the whereabouts of Voldemort - maybe RAB or even Regulus might have tipped the DE's off - but then Regulus died before the night of the attack - so maybe RAB tipped them off ... but then I am seriously off-topic ... I'm just trying to work out a way RAB could direct people towards the horcrux so he could revel in the fact when they got there the real one was gone and he was dead so the real location would have also died ...
This throw another question - it isnt helping Harry is RAB cannot be located - he needs that horcrux so you would have hoped that RAB would have it somewhere the good guys could find it ... but why did he never tip them off about it?
Argghhh - so many questions ... let me try and conclude this ...
RAB wanted Voldemort to know he had the Horcrux - Voldemort would have known who RAB was straight away - but RAB would have also been dead ...
RAB couldnt have been working for the good side otherwise the horcrux and story would have been passed to them ...
Someone was suppose to do something that would make Voldemort check that Horcrux so the true manner of that note could be felt ...
Ummm - help :D
SnarkologyMajor
20-12-2005, 03:10
Yes the note is confusing!:confused: J.K.R. is once again playing with language and us:p Not only can you take what he says as planning his own death-but he's also aware that it will be a long time before Voldemort finds it! This suggests time- twiddling once again-but that gives me more of a headache!:eek: The line-I face death in the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more-also suggests that he was aware of the prophecy. The note also shows that R.A.B. is sure that Voldemort is going to go looking for the horcrux. Even though on the surface it appears simple-it's not at all. That's why I feel it's one of the most important clues she gave us-hide in plain sight-yet make it as cryptic as possible. Also the fact that the locket originally belonged to Salazar Slytherin and the cave seeming very ancient, are things that factor in somehow. He also uses the word REAL Horcrux, which of course we assume is because he's left a fake-but is it really?? This is a real puzzle and I think it directly relates to all the things about Sirius that never added up. In addition to some of the ideas I posted-I was wondering if a fidelius charm could be placed on a person? What happens if that person dies-think about it-you would be right in front of someone screaming and they wouldn't see or hear you.
Another idea was that Regulus was cursed in some way. I do feel that the entire cave scene was a setup and why do that? To lead Harry to Regulus? I'm making guesses here obviously, but at this point in the game , it may be all we have. We have been given very little about Regulus (on purpose), but considering the note he left-he has way to much information that Harry(and us) need to finish the septology.
You know your first part, taken at face value can only mean on thing - Dumbledore ..
Dumbledore would know the prophecy ...
WAIT - OK, try this - Dumbledore would have known he was going to die - Snape told him about unbreakable vow and Draco had to kill him - Dumbledore would know that his time was up - he would also know the details of the prophecy ...
SO, he goes and takes the real horcrux and then sets the fake in it's place ...
WAAAAIIIIIITTTTTT - I know you are all screaming at your screens now but why the hell would he go back with Harry and try and get a horcrux he knew wasnt real - well check out the Harry Training thread - maybe even the Slughorn and cave thread - it has been suggested that the encounter was faked - seemed clinical and more like giving Harry training than a real horcrux hunt ...
We also know that A and B feature in Dumbledore's name ...
So perhaps you are right - RAB did fake his own death - that is also suggested in other threads - think about it - think about what RAB wrote - think about those who knew Voldemort needed to be made mortal to die ... OMG :eek:
Also - notice it was Dumbledore that 'took' the locket from the basin - Harry never saw it until such time as Dumbledore had died ...
I like another part of the text - -let you know it was I that discovered your secret - - I think Harry will give this note to Voldemort at some point - then Voldemort will know exactly who wrote it and why it would be too late!
Vault713
21-12-2005, 17:31
Why would you think that Harry would give or show that note to Voldemort? I'm just curious. Fascinated by this thread and so glad I stumbled on this site. You guys are great.
Why would you think that Harry would give or show that note to Voldemort? I'm just curious. Fascinated by this thread and so glad I stumbled on this site. You guys are great.
Regarding the note - wouldn't it be divine retribution if Harry hands Voldemort the note - thus letting him know that Harry knows about the Horcruxes and also once he reads it - he will know straight away who RAB was ...
Dumbledore would get the last laugh - Voldemort will know he is in the presence of the one person that is prophesied to kill him and his nearly all his Horcruxes would have been destroyed ... I just think that would be a great bit of writing!
Vault713
22-12-2005, 16:56
Regarding the note - wouldn't it be divine retribution if Harry hands Voldemort the note - thus letting him know that Harry knows about the Horcruxes and also once he reads it - he will know straight away who RAB was ...
I am really chomping at the bit to know if Dumbledore will indeed get the last laugh. I can't stand the suspense! I was listening to HBP today and I picked up that the only known relic of Godric Gryffindor's is the sword, so I don't see what Horcrux could be had from Gryffindor. I wonder if maybe there is something in Godric's Hollow that could be connectd to Gryffindor...is his home there? Is this information ever established? I don't think its a door knocker, because in HBP, Dumbledore says that the only KNOWN piece of Gryffindor's is the sword, which is encased, I believe.
Dumbledore mentioned that Voldemort travlelled extensively, so I wonder if he came across anything in Godric's Hollow? Just some thoughts. You guys are great. Thanks for the thread.
SnarkologyMajor
23-12-2005, 03:16
We can't forget the sorting hat! It's suspicious that Dumbledore left that out:D ....Alz, I'm really seeing your points about Albus/R.A.B.-we know for sure that Dumbledore knew that Voldemort had to be made mortal in order for him to be destroyed just as the note states. We also know that Dumbledore/Harry are certainly looking for Voldemorts horcruxes(the note implies Voldemort will be looking) CONFUSING:confused: The part stating "I will be dead long before" leads me right back to the whole cyclic time/ouroboros thing-though not in a clear way yet! Dumbledore as R.A.B. on one level backs up my idea that the locket horcrux and the unleashing of the first part of the prophecy are connected. I'm also finding clues that make the Regulus/Raphael connection stronger. We have at least 2 clues in HBP that lead directly to him. Tobias(Snape) in the bible was helped by the Archangel Raphael(this instance directly connects Raphael/Regulus)
who taught him about medicine(potions) and exercising demons. He also healed him of blindness. Galatea Merrythought also brings up Raphael-when you google the name Galatea one of the first things is the famous painting by Raphael of Galatea(mermaid). I'm looking for more in the rest of the books.:D
Based on J.K.R.'s statements concerning her beliefs-I'm pretty sure she's following the tradition of Lewis, Tolkien, Carroll etc... One of the most interesting facts I've found are that each of the 4 highest Archangels not only correspond to a star-but they each correspond to earth, air, fire, and water-and she just stated that was how she came up with the four houses. Considering that the heart of the lion-Regulus/Raphael-leads the Legions of Emerald Green Lightning and is the guardian of The Tree of Life-I'm beginning to feel like the Dursley's and their glasses!:D Somehow-I feel that all these different ideas tie together-most signifigantly the eternal battle between good and evil= cyclic TIME:D
Vault713
23-12-2005, 04:28
When you are talking about "cyclic time," are you saying that Regulus is in possession of a time turner and all of these occurences are going to be altered somehow, and Dumbledore won't be dead in Book 7?
SnarkologyMajor
23-12-2005, 06:52
No this is not what I'm referring to and I apologize for being so confusing. In referencing the time-turners-think more of them falling off,breaking, repairing themselves, getting back on the shelves, falling off, breaking...etc..for eternity. Maybe a better example is a phoenix who dies and is reborn from the ashes in an eternal cycle. I'm thinking more of Salazar Slytherin/Voldemort being the same evil entity who by chasing after immortality keeps repeating the same cycle over and over w/ more or less never realizing they have actually achieved immortality. In other words everything that has happened w/Harry had to happen the way it did because the circle had already been set in motion. I know that's about as clear as mud :D but am working on a way to simplify!:eek:
Vault713
23-12-2005, 10:50
I don't think you're confusing at all...I just took it the wrong way. Actually, I am really awed by your thought processes. I thought I was a Potter Freak, but you are into depths of it I didn't even know about. I always knew it was fundamentally good vs. evil, but I never got the Bible references. I understand your context of cyclic time now...Let's face it, we all know R. A. B. is Regulus...but I figure he must've drunk that same green concoction as Dumbledore to get the original Locket out of the font and to placed the imposter in it , so he can't be alive. I don't think many wizards could have the same fortitude as Dumbledore and would not survive such a blow to the body. That's what makes Dumbledore omnipotent, in my opinion.
I know this is another thread entirely, but I have not stopped wondering almost daily since OOP if Sirius is really on the other side of that black curtain. Or was the curtain just a metaphor for death? And I wonder if, as Dumbledore is now in the portrait in his office at Hogwarts sleeping, will he be able to advise Harry, as Nigellas and Dippett have served Dumbledore? Sorry, but this is the first time I have ever been able to pose these questions to anyone who remotely CARES and I just love this forum!~
Actually not to detract - but I am not sure Regulus is RAB .. in fact you gave the most compelling reasons against it above ... no-one could have drunk all that liquid, fought the inferius and then got back to shore safe before fading away ... so in that case we need to look back who found that locket ... Dumbledore ...
We saw the effect on Dumbledore - 12 glasses of that green stuff - and it took Harry to help him with more than half ... and then there was the boat and one magical person etc etc etc ... everyone was saying all along it was look doubtful RAB could have done it alone - I dont think he did it at all - it was the person that claimed to Harry he extracted that locket from the basin and was also found on the body post mortem.
The question of this thread is still valid thou - many feel a certain D isnt dead - that his death may have been faked ... well I begin to wonder based on RAB ...
Harry never had a chance to quiz D on RAB - but the RAB clue & locket fell into Harry's hand rather well no :D
Harry still has a great deal of question - Dumbledore remains the one with the most answers - if he is truely dead - his portrait and maybe his brother will offer the best chances of getting the answers - and I still feel certain that Harry will learn the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape from the man himself - be it a pensive moment, a note left with Aberforth or Snape, answers from a portrait or most of a push - the man himself!
Vault713
23-12-2005, 14:35
Do you think that maybe R. A. B. is an acronym, and maybe the "A" is for "Albus" sort of like Dumbledore's Army (D.A?) I think RAB is Regulus, but when I think of what you're saying it is a very interesting idea.
SnarkologyMajor
02-01-2006, 03:07
R.A.B. could be an acronym I suppose, but my feeling is that it's Regulus-based on J.K.R.'s statements concerning him. I know some people have guessed that maybe Kreature helped in the cave, but I was thinking that it might have been Sirius. I still find it odd that Sirius had James and Lily switch SecretKeepers at the last minute and all of Sirius's comments about this are contradictory.Could it be that he couldn't be secret-keeper because he was already one? Also the fact that Hagrid said he had to return Sirius's motorbike in Book 1, then in Book 3 he says that Sirius told him to keep it because he didn't need it anymore. It seems that Hagrid still had the motorbike when he came to get Harry in Book 1-when asked by Harry, Hagrid says that he flew but that they would have to take another way back. Where is that motorbike and why haven't we seen it? Anyway my guess here is that it all ties to Regulus-but of course I'm just going with a gut feeling.:D
Vault713
02-01-2006, 04:02
I believe whole-heartedly that R. A. B. is Regulus. I just feel it would be impossible for Regulus to survive the green potion that killed Dumbledore. Who could withstand that, unless they had a Dark Mark, maybe? (Kind of like the barrier charm in the HBP battle in the castle hallways) I just figure JKR has only one more time to tie up loose ends and this would certainly clear a lot up. I don't think there's much more room or time for a lot of theory and "poetic license."
Still think Regulus is too obvious ... IMHO - said it in another thread just a minute ago but I think it is too easy to make that jump - although the most support does jump to him so it isnt just me straight out denying it!
Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore
I can get the A and B - just the R is an issue!
SnarkologyMajor
03-01-2006, 03:41
I understand not wanting to believe that R.A.B. is Regulus from the standpoint that it seems to simple-I thought that myself and that is why I went through every piece of evidence backwards and forwards. I've posted most of the clues already but I would like to reiterate J.K.R.'s statement during TLC/Mugglenet interview again because you have to look at it very closely-
MA-Forgive me if I'm remembering incorrectly, but was Regulus the one who was murdered by Voldemort?
JKR-Well Sirius said he wouldn't have been because he wasn't important enough to-remember?(This was after her comment that Sirius is on the edge, a bit of a loose cannon, has a case of arrested development, etc...)
MA-But that doesn't have to be true ifR.A.B. is writing Voldemort a personal note-
JKR-That doesn't necessarily show that Voldemort killed him personally, but Sirius himself suspected that Regulus got in a little to deep. Like Draco. He was attracted to it, but the reality of what he meant was way too much to handle.
Oh, how do you feel about Lupin/Tonks?
When I examined these comments-it is very clear that Jo herself inadvertantly made the connection between R.A.B. and Regulus and when she realized this she immediately tried to divert attention away from it.:D Also the "like Draco" part seems important since Dumbledore told Draco in the US version that he can't be killed if he's already dead-and that Dumbledore can hide him in ways he can't imagine.
The thing is-even knowing that R.A.B. is in fact Regulus Black-it doesn't make anything simple to figure out at all because we have such vague(and probably questionable information) about Reggie. There does seem to be a clear connection between Albus and R.A.B. though because everything that happened in the cave and on the lightning-struck tower seem to be about getting Harry and R.A.B. together-and there has to be some very complicated issues involved in doing such. Pinpointing the problem is frustrating since we've been given metamorphamagi, the draught of the living dead, animagi, switching spells, shrinking spells, and the fidelius charm. I truly believe that we will be taken by suprise by at least one of these:eek:
See I am of the opinion JKR doesnt make huge, plot specific errors in her interviews - she is very careful what she answers and if you do strike to close to the knuckle she is very honest in saying so - I have seen multiple instances where someone asks her a question which is on the money so to say - and she answers it in a manner than leaves you no doubts that it is important.
I see from the series of questions what you are suggesting - but I actually think she is answering the inital question - you cant tell from the transcript how clearly that second question was asked and if JKR had time to comprehend it ...
I'm not saying Regulus is an instant gimmie - but it didnt take much to come to the conclusion it may be him .. that just seemed very un-JKR like ... there is always a sting in the tale ... dismiss Dumbledore at your peril ;)
Also not sure where it was said - but someone made reference to JKR and horcruxes and easy to guess using Regulus - I think JKR was saying AN OBJECT would be easy to figure out if you read the books ... *cough*HARRY*cough*
SnarkologyMajor
04-01-2006, 16:11
Well I certainly can agree about Harry:D Now I would like to say that we'll have to agree to disagree about R.A.B-except that I think we are both right. I know that is confusing and can't explain it fully right yet:eek: but I'll keep working on it.
There are just so many things about the note itself, J.K.R.'s clues pertaining to Regulus, and Albus's involvement, that are adding up in a way that equals 1+1=3:( Even discounting Jo's statements and the intial B. translating to same intial as Black-I feel that the word Black itself running rampant throughout Book 6, the double B's, the handwriting being so similar to Sirius's, and most signifigantly the importance of the name Regulus itself-These are difficult for me to discount. After all Sirius the dogstar really was a dog along w/numerous other similarities w/the mythology surrounding his name and not only is Regulus one of the Four Royal Stars dating to 3000 B.C. he is the highest of the four.:D The really intriguing part is that both Sirius and Regulus tie to cyclical time(the Sphinx, the pyramids, the 12,000 yr. cycle of the sun, and clocks themselves) more than any other stars in mythology. However-Albus' behavior throughout HBP has me questioning some things, especially concerning the cave(I definately got the sense he had been there before/or Slughorn had, there is no way you could find that entrance otherwise!) , the potion, the fact that he retrieved the "fake locket" , and numerous other things that just don't add up! I feel that I may have to start hitting the books w/omnioculars again before I get a migraine:D
I think RAB did literally fake his death because he was there at the cave before switching with Slughorn for the time Harry visited ... at which point Slughorn masquerading as RAB was able to give his instructional and make it look like he was dying - finishing off with the big tower trick - and that is the point RAB died ...
Please, re-read what RAB says in the note and you will see that this person knows about the prophecy, he knew about the horcruxes and he knew he would be dead by the time Voldemort found out that his horcrux was gone - by being confronted with the person RAB setup, prepared, trained and presented to Voldemort - the person capable of killing him and for him to be in a position to die (I'm guessing Harry will make it to Voldemort thinking he has to kill Nagini and then Voldemort - we know that isn't right ;) ) ... the last part of the note screams 'nah nah, nanah na' to Voldemort and I am sure when it all plays out Voldemort will say 'Dumbledore' - for he knew that it was all his handy work!
It's really interesting:) .
But I do believe R.A.B. is Regulus: When I was reading the English version of HBP I was wondering how they would translate RAB into Dutch. They made it R.A.Z.! Black(the name) has been translated into Zwarts(since book 1). Regulus remains the same.
So you see: R.A.B. = Regulus A. Black. And R.A.Z. = Regulus A. Zwarts.
It all fits!
Vault713
06-01-2006, 17:56
Also the "like Draco" part seems important since Dumbledore told Draco in the US version that he can't be killed if he's already dead-and that Dumbledore can hide him in ways he can't imagine.
:eek:
I am curious - what did she write in non-US versions? I didn't realize she changed text as well as titles. Thanks!
Vault713, the discrepancies are on the Lexicon. http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/books/hbp/differences-hbp.html The Lexicon doensn't allow copy/paste, sorry.
Before I forget, I want to suggest that an unknown relic of Griffindor could be the first golden snitch -- wasn't it invented in Godric's Hollow?
RAB -- Stubby Boardman? (Has this been discussed? I read through, albeit only briefly). I don't think it's Dumbledore.
I read the Sirius thread and find it curious how much he knows about Peter (year of spying) -- would he really have gotten this information from Regulus if they weren't close? I might assume that they were close, secretly, except Sirius left home at 16 to live with James and his parents. Is it possible that the eavesdropper did overhear only half the prophecy, and it was Peter (did you suggest this, SM?) -- and the struggle we learn of from Trelawney was Aberforth mistaking Snape's action as eavesdropping, when he was trying to apprehend one? (Okay, sounding confusing now...)
I'd be perfectly happy to assume RAB is Regulus and that he faked his death, but I'm 99.9% positive that JK said (paraphrased) in an interview that Regulus isn't talking too much these days b/c he's dead.
Sorry for missing the subtler nuances of the conversation, I'm a bit rusty. My essay took up all my spare time, but it's done now.
gumshoe
SnarkologyMajor
07-01-2006, 07:45
I like the golden snitch idea gumshoe:D Harry as the seeker chasing the little golden snitch(truth) has always seemed like the perfect metaphor for his life! Only thing is-it wouldn't relate back to the founders(as far as we know;) )because I think Bowman Wright was the inventor, but he did live at Godric's Hollow so it's a possibilty. I had thought that either Voldemort had taken an object (to encase the horcrux he planned on creating that night w/Harry's death) with him to Godric's Hollow or James and Lily already had an object that he wanted to use.
As for the eavesdropper-we know it was Snape and as per the Trelawney pensieve scene(which was not interupted) that he heard either all of it or none of it. However, I think it is possible that the rat could of been there unbeknownst to anyone, including us the readers.
I still say that Jo's comment-"Well he's dead-so he's pretty quiet these days" borders on sarcastic and flippant(which she's not)- that it is exactly what I would expect if she was obfuscating about his death being faked. I mean from her point of view-if she wrote a character who's death is a sham, that she as the author is trying to keep secret-what would you answer? I think if he did fake his death, her answer is quite humerous:D instead of disrespectful of the dead. In conjuction w/her other statements (further back on the thread a bit ) this seems like strong supporting evidence that R.A.B. is Regulus.
ThankYou M.A.H.:D -for mentioning the initials matching in all the non-English versions....some have said that maybe all the different editors just assumed that R.A.B. meant Regulus Black-Well that would sure be alot of assumptions to assume:D I guess we need confirmation that the editors all had inside info.!
For my part, even though there seems to be alot of evidence pointing to R.A.B. as Regulus Alphard(?) Black-the clincher was the name Regulus itself. She doesn't pull names out of a hat- they are very important clues. She gave us three other clues in HBP that lead to the name Raphael and Regulus/Raphael is the most important star of the "Four Royal Stars" which marked the solstices for the ancients 5,000 yrs, ago-seems pretty darn important:D
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
02-03-2006, 08:37
Interesting theory. But personally I'm much into believe that RAB is dead. Otherwise he would have gone for the other horcruxes, wouldn't he?
well it's just my opinion.
SnarkologyMajor
04-03-2006, 01:23
Good point Ana! The only thing is-was anyone even contemplating Voldemort making more than one horcrux (other than Slughorn)? Dumbledore said that Riddle would have known of another wizard splitting his soul once...and given the mystery of how R.A.B. discovered Voldemort's secret about the horcrux in the cave, it makes it more difficult to figure out how he would have discovered Voldemort's secret about several horcruxes. His note said- "I have discovered your "secret" not "I have discovered your "secrets", this is part of the reason why I posed a theory about the locket horcrux being used as part of a plan at Godric's Hollow. If the idea was to use it against Voldemort-then it backfired because Voldemort had more than one. I feel this could explain how Harry's scar ended up as a horcrux....
Interesting - first time I heard that but I like it ... the part about Order feeling smug they had removed the horcrux from Voldemort and let him go attack the Potters ... mind you without his Horcrux he still would have been formidable and we know that James died rather quickly and Lily sacrificed herself ... so not like he was walking into that much of a well executed plan by the order!
Since we dont know how RAB found out about the horcrux he found - there is only assumption that says if he was still alive he would have carried on looking for others ... I think how he got the info for the one he took was a flook and not sure Voldemort would have been that loose lipped about all of them ...
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
07-03-2006, 13:55
Good point Ana! The only thing is-was anyone even contemplating Voldemort making more than one horcrux (other than Slughorn)? Dumbledore said that Riddle would have known of another wizard splitting his soul once...and given the mystery of how R.A.B. discovered Voldemort's secret about the horcrux in the cave, it makes it more difficult to figure out how he would have discovered Voldemort's secret about several horcruxes. His note said- "I have discovered your "secret" not "I have discovered your "secrets", this is part of the reason why I posed a theory about the locket horcrux being used as part of a plan at Godric's Hollow. If the idea was to use it against Voldemort-then it backfired because Voldemort had more than one. I feel this could explain how Harry's scar ended up as a horcrux....
Well I think that when He says he's found the real Horcrux he means he knows about the existence of other Horcruxes...(that one would be the first he has ever done.... that means it was the one who contained the biggest portion of his soul, therefore the real one!):)
SnarkologyMajor
08-03-2006, 03:07
The "Real Horcrux" plays into the Cyclic Time Salazar/Voldemort theory-so I'm loving that, but I don't think it matters whether you destroy the first horcrux does it? I mean we've been told that all of the horcruxes have to be destroyed in order to finally destroy Voldemort. I know there could be a time travel theory in this somewhere-but I'm not loving the notion of Harry going back and stopping the so-called birth of Voldemort-it just wouldn't be satisfying. That would make me think-"What's the point?" of the whole series, so I'll just forget that train of thought.....:eek:
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
08-03-2006, 10:34
I just posted it as this is the fact that makes me feel RAB knew about other Horcruxes existence, therefore he wouldn't fake is death, he would have gone for the other Horcruxes... and I think he has gone for the strongest one to make sure that if he died before getting the other Horcruxes, he would take the strongest one to make Voldemort weaker than he is...
SnarkologyMajor
11-03-2006, 02:29
JKR wanted us to think that Regulus is dead-because Voldemort found out what he did. This doesn't add up for a couple of reasons-1. The fake locket w/the note was still in the basin meant to be found by Voldemort(I think he would notice the real one is gone) and the real horcrux was probably the locket at Grimmauld Place 2. If Regulus had a piece of Voldemort's soul-he would not be easy to kill-if I was him I would have hidden it and/or used it as leverage against Voldemort.
I can see the idea that RAB faked his death - but as ACBR is saying - being considered dead and underground - fixed with this knowledge you would think he would have continued looking right?
But then again - we also have to assume that RAB might not have subscribed to the theory of multiple horcruxes - afterall knowing what a Horcrux is and what it does to you - most normal people wouldnt do it more than once as Dumbledore said.
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
15-03-2006, 14:44
What if RAB was a good occlumens or.... well he may have been spying Voldemort...
Or ... Well maybe... as you can remember Slughorn's memory was changed... what if It was RAB?
SnarkologyMajor
15-03-2006, 16:46
Well Severus Snape is probably the best occlumens there is-and Severus and Regulus were deatheaters together. R.A.B. knew about the prophecy-Severus was "the evesdropper"(although I'm convinced he heard all of it or none of it). Orion-Regulus's dad was killed the same yr. as his younger son-I'm beginning to see a picture here! I may have to start a wild thread...:D Does anyone have any ideas on why Regulus put the note in a locket? Why not just leave a note, or leave it an envelope, or a box? Harry recognized that the locket was not the same one as Slytherin's right away-so was Reg. really trying to fool Voldemort? I think not-if Harry knew it, Voldemort would definately know it. It seems like that fake locket is important for some reason.
RAB left the note so that Voldemort would find it - another question is did RAB know that Voldemort would go looking or was he investing in the future?
Thing is, the locket was taken by him no - so why would he think that the locket would be found and read by Voldemort?
This suggests that he may have been aware that someone was going to shop him and also lends weight to the two people theory does it not?
RAB wanted Voldemort to read that note - was addressed specifically at him - so we should be asking if RAB stole it why was he sure that Voldemort would get it back to read the note?
Just a possible thought that RAB knew what was coming ... and maybe planned?
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
28-03-2006, 07:31
Good Theory.... that makes me wonder wether RAB was trying to get Voldemort's place...I mean otherwise he would keep secret the fact that he was the one behind the Locket replacement....
Well see, it just seems to me that placing the note would indicate he knew that his game was up and it was just a matter of when and not if Voldemort would come looking for him.
Of course the flip side is he thought ahead and realised at some point Voldemort would go check his horcruxes and then discover that the locket was gone - get the fake horcrux and open it - that is of course 100% possible also.
I just think he wanted the fake horcrux found the same way in what Riddle wanted his diary read - it is playing with fire given the risks associated but I should imagine RAB was just as proud and maybe arrogant as Riddle was - by having his fake horcrux discovered it would give him the final fingers up to Voldemort but would also seal his own death - but he died before Voldemort could find it ... so I wonder on what fact or basis RAB was working to that Voldemort would read it?
Ana C.B.Rodrigues
28-03-2006, 13:32
Or maybe (I would believe that If I hadn't read about the presence of "the" locket at number 12 Grimmauld Place... that It could also be Voldemort Himself trying to get people away from the real Horcrux... but I believe it's the grimmauld Place's one the real Locket!
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