Was it Dumbledore who Froze Harry?

[SnarkologyMajor]

Upon reading the Lightning-Struck Tower I immediately was struck(no pun intended:D ) with the feeling that Dumbledore freezing Harry was off the mark. Now I'd like to point out that most of the clues I feel are relevant are very subtle-but I'll start with the more obvious.

1. When Harry is upset and makes assumptions-he's generally wrong.
2. Why would he freeze him when he knew he had on his invisibility cloak and he had just gestured him to retreat-after they heard the footsteps.
3. We have been given way too many incidents of Dumbledore's capability to perform multiple, complex, and non-verbal spells. The idea that freezing Harry cost him his chance to deflect Draco's expelliarmus is a bit preposterous(even if he was incapacitated)
4. On pg. 584 Harry thinks-Expelliarmus was not a Freezing Charm, but then on pg. 608 he thinks-...there was no hope from the moment that the full Body-Bind Curse Dumbledore placed on him lifted. These are two different spells and point to Harry making incorrect assumptions.
5. I feel that Malfoy freezing Harry in Ch. 7 was foreshadowing and Malfoy used Petrificus Totalus.

Now to the subtle-

The overuse of circles, doors, and unseen running footsteps was glaring here and reminded me of OOTP in the DOM.

pg. 584- Harry hurried over to the door leading to the spiral staircase, but his hand had only just closed on the iron ring of the door when he heard running footsteps on the other side. He looked around at Dumbledore...

Although someone hiding behind clues were everywhere in Book 6-they were almost annoying in Chapter 6 Draco's Detour. I counted no less than 58 references to hiding behind, looking behind, in the back of, etc..etc.. I get the feeling she really wanted us to pay attention. :D

Then in Chapter 3 she was definately giving clues foreshadowing The Lightning Struck Tower - she mentions Harry's brass telescope and pair of trainers 4 times -
and you have to match them w/ some of the sentences used together -

pg. 44 Harry jumped up as though he had received an electric shock, knocked over his chair....Harry froze with a brass telescope in one hand and a pair of trainers in the other.....Harry ran down the stairs two at a time.

pg. 47 Harry, still clutching the telescope and trainers, jumped the last few stairs and followed Dumbledore.

pg. 50 Without realizing what he was doing, Harry sprang to his feet; the telescope and trainers in his lap rolled across the floor.

pg. 54 Harry hastily, hurrying to pick up his fallen telescope and trainers.

With all the freezing, falling, stairs, and running it seems to me that she really wants us to focus on the scene where Harry thinks that Dumbledore froze him. The use of pair with all the other 2's in both chapters leads me to think there was someone else on the tower-which coincides with the theory that Dumbledore/Slughorn were working together in the cave and on the tower. I had some suspicions about Hermione since she seemed to be missing for a while and acted quite strange throughout but....

This kind of goes along with the ideas in The Phoenix Lament thread also...missing time...Anyway would love to hear ideas and other clues. :D

[Alz]

Excellent!

OK, now I am seeing those thoughts expanded and great, totally cool!
You know I am amazed at how or what people get from the books - me I like to look at the unwritten and subtle - but I am in awe when people can point out the running themes of grouped words and the likes - as I said - cool!

And given the Dumbledore/Slughorn thoughts this really does take on a new light!
It could also facilitate that the whole scene, from start to end, on that tower was a complete smoke screen by JKR - wouldnt it be sweet if anything that happend on that tower was remotley as it seems!

Another point maybe of note here - Harry had his back to Dumbledore ...
Dumbledore tells Harry to fetch Snape - Harry turns around and hurries over to the door - hears running steps and then turns - Dumbledore gestures to him to retreat and Harry backed away ..
Point is - there is a moment in time Harry doesnt see what is going on behind him but instead it more centered on the things going on behind the door ... this means there is plenty of chances for anyone else to come from the shadows etc and do a swap maybe??? :p
By having that moment where Harry wasnt looking at Dumbledore - having that moment where he is intent on what is going on behind that door - it could have allowed any number of things to happen!

[SnarkologyMajor]

Thanks Alz! Sometimes it's difficult to articulate these clues in a way that's easy to follow-but given how complicated she made them in the first place, I guess that's expected:D I spent so many years trying to follow her red-herrings and getting completely side-tracked that I try to just focus on the more obvious ones(oxymoron)-and these seemed to jump off the pages. I am certainly getting the notion that everything from Dumbledore to Snape to Harry on that tower was a big smokescreen-but for who? Us the readers seems most obvious-but was it a smokescreen meant for Voldemort? Harry? It all had to be for a reason.....

[Sirius Potter Fan]

I love this! I want to bring a few statements from other threads here that may shed some light, but first. . .

The "smoke screen" I would say was either for Voldemort/Draco, or perhaps for Harry's benifit. . . I was one of the first to say that it would be Dumbledore that died in the book. Not because I had secret information (or that I knew Gambon would never play the role right so that would at least be one movie he couldn't ruin) , but that it just seemed obvious to me that Harry had to learn to stand on his own feet and never would if he always had Dumbledore to fall back on. Now he knows it's in his hands, he cannot have the luxury of making the "wrong assumptions" I'm not saying that Harry hasn't taken things seriously, but he has always depended on Dumbledore. Dumbledore knows from the prophesy that it has to be Harry that takes care of things in the end, and if he (DD) is around Harry will will have a false sense of security in trusting that DD will help him.

OK,

1. Someone pointed out in another thread DD saying "I do not need a cloak to become invisible"

2. There is a thread discussing transfiguration, specificaly of non living objects into living creatures.

the rest are things that have already been mentioned here, now. . .

My guess is, DD was really there on the tower, but himself invisible. Perhaps a transfigured "Dummy" being operated by the invisible Dumbledore as a marionette. That way, it was able to talk to Malfoy just as DD would have, but not be harmed no matter what the outcome. . .

and. . .just occured to me. . . the dark mark above the tower. . .Would DD have taken Harry to an obviously dangerous situation that the mark signified, if DD didn't already have plans in place? I don't think DD would risk Harry's safety. He may have left him first in Aberforth's care or at Hagrid's. I think DD would look to Harry's safety first.

[kashlie]

Okay, let me just throw in a little 'against' here - Dumbledore froze Harry so he wouldn't try and help and get himself killed. Dumbledore knew who would come through that door, and seeing as Harry had already cast the Sectumsempra on Malfoy, I doubt he would have hesitated to do it again, but this time there were DE to back Malfoy up.

Now, whether it was the real Dumbledore or someone in disguise, is another matter.
Also, with the brooms. I know there are two because Harry is there, but Malfoy asks the all important question - 'Who else is here'.
Dumbledore obviously isn't going to answer that question, but now it has us all wondering!
(a smart move too, not to have Harry take his own broom. easily recognisable)

and a little side track question - how could Dumbeldore know what Harry was doing when he had the cloak on, and where he was to cast the spell?

[Aquaphile]

I agree with the idea that what happened on the Astronomy Tower was a set up. The idea that somehow Dumbeldore somehow survived I think is credible, especially since he was encased in that marble crypt which seems rather odd given it is rare that tombstones are mentioned for wizards and witches. Dumbeldore usually gives others only the information they need, and I am doubtful that he trusted Slughorn enough to confide in him. Therefore, I think the idea of Dumbeldore manipulating a dummy is most credible and freezing Harry from another location on the tower.

[SnarkologyMajor]

SiriusPotterFan-I totally agree that Harry has to go forward w/o Dumbledore-even though it seems like he left Harry in the dark about alot of things, J.K.R. said that Harry knows alot more than he realizes(something like that). It seems pretty clear that he has to figure out the rest on his own-I figure it must be so traumatic that there isn't any other way.
Although I feel that there were unseen forces on the astronomy tower-I haven't puzzled out who(or what) definitively yet. I'm inclined to think that it has something to do with Slughorn/Dumbledore working together-I keep thinking about Slug dabbing his sweating brow when he finally showed up in the headmasters office. As per gumshoe's thread-he was no where to be found before this-and I keep seeing the image of them back- to- back using identical sweeping motions and the whole mirror image of them.
Your guess is good also-and one I hadn't even thought of! Yikes-so many possibilities to ponder once again:eek: You are right on the money about the Dark Mark and it is an answer to kashlie's following question-if Dumbledore really wanted to protect Harry-he wouldn't have taken him in the first place. Also I think we should remember what Dumbledore says to Harry on -
US HBP pg. 578-"I am not worried, Harry," said Dumbledore, his voice a little stronger despite the freezing water. "I am with you."
Not only is Harry far more powerful than he realizes-but we have seen throughout the books that he is awfully difficult to kill! :D This is an understatement on my part since I believe when Voldemort set the prophecy in motion-Harry is impossible to kill-except by Voldemort himself. For either must die at the hand of the other.
Also-we have had clues that Dumbledore isn't prohibited from seeing Harry while wearing his invisibilty cloak starting in Book 1-
SS/PS pg. 212-"So-back again, Harry?"...."I-I didn't see you, sir."..."Strange how nearsighted being invisible can make you" said Dumbledore.
Dumbledore is an exceptional legilimens too, so he would be able to sense where Harry was.
Given all this- I have to say I'm still on the fence about Dumbledore being dead-this mostly has to do with a gut feeling that he is. However all the clues point the other way-Holy Crap what a conundrum! :D
Now I'm really going to go out on a limb and say that I have a niggling feeling that Harry's telekentic ability(unbeknownst to him yet) factors in here somehow?Like I said though-it's just a feeling and could be very wrong:(