View Full Version : Was it Sectumsempra?
Fortescue
10-01-2006, 13:49
Okay, another thread discussion planted this question in my mind yesterday and I thought I'd put it out there for everyone to ponder.
In HBP, Harry used the curse, Sectumsempra on Malfoy and we know what happened to Malfoy:
'"SECTUMSEMPRA!" bellowed Harry from the floor, waving his wand wildly.
Blood spurted from Malfoy's face and chest as though he had been slashed with an invisible sword.
And he [Snape] slashed at the air: Harry felt a white-hot, whiplike something hit him across the face and was slammed backward into the ground. Spots of light burst in front of his eyes and for a a moment all the breath seemed to have gone from his body...
It seemed that in the first quote, Harry was slightly in a hurry and he didn't do the slashing motion very well, but he did say the incantation. In the second quote, Snape did the slashing motion, but did not speak the word.
Was it the same spell, but with different outcomes because of: who was casting it? The way it was cast, (verbal as apposed to non-verbal)? Maybe a different outcome because Snape is a more talented wizard?
Thoughts?
SnarkologyMajor
10-01-2006, 15:04
Yeah I would say that Snape certainly has learned more control (and I think he's been trying to teach Harry some for a long time:D ) so it would seem as though it was the same spell. I believe though that this ties in w/powers that Harry is unaware he has yet and doesn't particulary control very well;) Trying to put together something on that right now-it may be part of the key to Voldemort's downfall:D
Upon further contemplation (oh no) it seems as though when Harry used the spell it had the effect of a knife and when Snape used it-the effect of a whip. Do you conjure an imaginary weapon then? Makes you wonder what the heck Harry was thinking and seems to further point to his lack of control here. On a side note-I would think students would get expelled for what Harry did(in our world they would probably go to prison) and all Snape did was give him the equivalent of detention.
The Frozen North
11-01-2006, 03:34
it seems as though when Harry used the spell it had the effect of a knife and when Snape used it-the effect of a whip. Do you conjure an imaginary weapon then? Makes you wonder what the heck Harry was thinking and seems to further point to his lack of control here.
I wonder if the effect is consistent with the emotion behind it, as we have discussed with unforgivable curses - desire and intent appear to have a lot to do with the outcome.
On the subject of Harry's detention for sectusempra, maybe he wanted to avoid the possibility of exposing himself for developing a curse that is so "evil". A more severe punishment would have required the involvement of either the headmaster of head of the student's house. This way it was still kept quiet.
I wonder if the effect is consistent with the emotion behind it, as we have discussed with unforgivable curses - desire and intent appear to have a lot to do with the outcome.
On the subject of Harry's detention for sectusempra, maybe he wanted to avoid the possibility of exposing himself for developing a curse that is so "evil". A more severe punishment would have required the involvement of either the headmaster of head of the student's house. This way it was still kept quiet.
Got to admit I think TFN is bang on the money in all aspects there ...
I think it is exactly like the unforgivable curses (I mean look at what it does!) and the more evil and hate you pour into it - the more you really desire and really want to hurt someone - the spell adapts and produces the effects we saw ...
Snape was angry and hateful - but not at Harry - once again it was all about James - enough for him to hurt Harry but not enough to really cut him deep and hurt him ...
Snape wouldnt want to hurt Harry badly - just stop him - keep him away so he could make the getaway he needed to - of course Buckbeak jumped in as well and that sped things up but I think it is well observed by Forte on the spell - and well observed by TFN on the effects and control that set the two attacks apart.
Fortescue
11-01-2006, 15:01
I don't want to go off on the "Snape's a good guy" tirade, but if you think about it, along with what TFN said, what Snape did was he stopped Harry with one spell, and if it was the same one Harry did on Malfoy, Snape had much more control of his emotions at the time. But the entire thing just before he shot the spell would show Snape has to have very strong control over his emotions.
HBP, Flight of the Prince, pg 604.
Harry dived for his wand; Snape shot a hex at it and it flew feet away into the darkness and out of sight.
"Kill me then," panted Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. "Kill me like you killed him, you coward -"
"DON'T -" screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house hehind him - "CALL ME COWARD!"
Then Snape shot the curse at Harry with the slashing motion and no incantation. The curse definitely stopped Harry and kept him from getting back up, but why would Snape be on the verge of hysteria one moment and then use a very controlled, very dangerous curse on Harry with the most gentle touch the next?
If Sectumsempra works like the Cruciatus Curse, you really have to mean to cause pain/damage, then I agree with TFN, but I still have to wonder how was it that Snape could be in such a towering temper only seconds before he shot the spell at Harry, yet not cause damage the way Harry did to Malfoy? Not to get off subject again, but it makes me wonder if maybe Snape wasn't teaching Harry something again in an off-handed way?
Because Snape is protecting Harry because of something from the past - like guilt!
I mean come on - we must see this by now!
Snape was able to go from irrational to rational because he knows he has to protect Harry and thus is able to control the effects of the spell.
He needed to put Harry down in as much as to protect Harry as well as facilitate his exit - if he let Harry continue there was a risk a DE or someone could take it as Snape loosing control and attack Harry again.
Call it cruel to be kind - he put Harry down and out for his own good and also so he could get away.
I firmly believe as much as Snape dislikes Harry because of the past - he is obligated to keep him fit and healthy because of the past - not James but Lily and probably his own guilt in leaving Harry where he is.
The Frozen North
12-01-2006, 01:12
...but I still have to wonder how was it that Snape could be in such a towering temper only seconds before he shot the spell at Harry, yet not cause damage the way Harry did to Malfoy? Not to get off subject again, but it makes me wonder if maybe Snape wasn't teaching Harry something again in an off-handed way?
Doesn't this just sum up the enigma surrounding Snape that we all love so much? He appears to be able to switch his emotions on and off at the flick of a switch but in reality he always has control. It's kind of like an advanced version of the way a parent reacts to a child, we may be angry with them but if we loose control we may end up doing something we regret and are therefore able to retain control over ourselves in a way that we may not otherwise be able to. If any of you think that a parent should not get angry at a child, in an ideal world I agree but those who think that are obviously not parents. Good parents are able to control their anger but on occasions they still feel it. Snape is an expert at controlling himself despite his feelings, that is why he is both powerful and dangerous!!
SnarkologyMajor
12-01-2006, 04:42
You nailed it TFN-I was pondering this last night and was thinking along the same lines. It's very much like parenting, Sometimes I do get mad at my child (not often :D )but because I love her I can control it. So one could almost say that Snape was operating from a place of love-and that does not equate w/most of the interaction we get through Harry's eyes. This sort of goes along with the idea that Snape was purposefully mean and hateful towards Harry right at the get-go-because he was aware (or at least suspicious) that H has an H and did not want Voldemort tapping into his thoughts. Harry put Severus in danger from the moment he arrived at Hogwarts. He put Harry at arms length and fostered Harry's feeling towards him.
In fact the Snape we see in Spinner's End is probably the only Snape we've seen without the Harry filter on-and he is a very different person here, one who is very much in control of his emotions. It just doesn't make sense that he has no control over a genuine hatred towards Harry.
When I mentioned Snape's punishment being so lenient-I was thinking more about the oddity-Snape seemingly has tried to get Harry expelled from the very beginning and here he is handed a perfect reason to get him expelled and he doesn't take it. One reason could be that he didn't want Dumbledore to know about it-or it could be that all his previous attempts were a fraud.
Regarding your last point SM - it has been speculated that Snape wanted Harry out and away from Hogwarts for his own safety - but also for Harry's safety.
I think we are right to remember that Harry has a window into Hogwarts and all around him from Voldemort - the fact it took so long for both parties to realise it meant it wasnt fully exploited - but could it be the Snape might have suspected this link? It's out there and no so plausible - but possible.
I think Snape has been in and around Harry to help him - he hasnt been a nice person and I dont think he ever will be - he has something else called obligation that makes him want to keep Harry safe ... JKR was once asked if Snape was redeeming - she squirmed on that ... now we can see why!
The Frozen North
12-01-2006, 12:30
I more or less agree with Alz's last point. I don't think that love is Snape's motivation to protect Harry but a sense of duty, duty to Dumbledore and to the wizarding world in general.
halliemei
12-01-2006, 15:59
I guess this is as good a place as any to throw in something I've thought about on this, too. I wonder (and I think a couple of you have seen this) that perhaps the way Snape has treated Harry has resulted in what has to happen at the end of Prince. Basically, Harry cannot learn from Snape. There is a block there, that Harry has put up. Harry learned tons from the Prince, because he didn't know it was Snape. He couldn't learn Occlumency basically because he refuses to. Snape needs Harry to learn non-verbal spells and such, and that he is teaching Harry the right things, but Harry WILL NOT learn them. Snape had to go so that Harry would keep growing.
Sounds kinda lame just stated like that, but I think that the "emotional" block Harry has put up when it comes to Snape is damaging to him and that Snape had to sacrifice to make it happen.
The Frozen North
13-01-2006, 09:08
Totally agree, you can not learn from someone you don't respect (you don't have to like), this is generally agreed on by psychologists and educationalists alike!!
SnarkologyMajor
13-01-2006, 11:13
Yes-that's a great observation:D Harry has always been so completely baised when comes to Snape(Snape's fault) that it's made it impossible to learn very well. It sure makes sense to get Severus out of the picture for a bit and for Harry to learn some things before they meet again:D You know Snape did sound a bit disgruntled when he said "Funny, I never had the impression that I managed to teach Potter anything"(pg. 319) Do you think it's possible that it took Snape awhile to figure this out?
I umm and ahh on that comment - I think Snape has taught Harry a few things and continues to do so - maybe not lessons and the like but has certainly helped keep the celebrity status Harry could have achieved at Hogwarts under wraps.
Harry remembered bezor because of Snape - some things do make it in there and they are important things!
I think the unique way Snape is around Harry has taught him more than we know - because Harry always remembers Snape and his lessons ... whereas all the other that like him or treat him as a student dont always make the best impact on his education.
Harry is kinda hopeless at potions prior to and starting in HBP - until he made aquaintance with the Prince - but I think what Snape was teaching Harry expanded beyond the class and context of it ...
halliemei
13-01-2006, 13:26
Alz, that's my point, I think. But, he remembered the Bezoar from the Prince, not "Snape" -- he didn't realize that it's one in the same. Snape's taught Harry TONS of stuff -- just not with Harry realizing it (or getting credit for knowing ANYTHING).
Second, another thing . . . I wonder if the spell used on Hr in the DoM is Sectumsempra? We know there was a slashing motion and that the DE was "silenced". There was (apparently) no blood and a lot of pain involved, and it required lots of ointments to fix it. The spell used on her is MUCH more like the one Snape used on Harry in HBP in outcome, but it certainly begs the question that perhaps it is because of the control/experience of the caster.
The Frozen North
13-01-2006, 13:27
I do agree with what you say here Alz but I was referring to teaching in terms of imparting knowledge, not life lessons which we generally learn through experience, of which Snape have given Harry plenty. These are the type of lessons that you are describing.
Alz, that's my point, I think. But, he remembered the Bezoar from the Prince, not "Snape" -- he didn't realize that it's one in the same.
Read PS/SS and the very first time Harry and Snape share a class .... you will see what I meant :D
Fortescue
13-01-2006, 13:58
I think some of the comments has brought out a point that I never thought of before - I guess the animosity between Snape and Harry has caused him to block a few things, and made his learning of other things a much slower process. JKR has made this a big point throughout the story in regards to Harry's potions lessons, Occlumency lessons, and then in his sixth year, his ability to learn the unspoken spell.
The example of Sectumsempra that started this thread could be another one of those things. We have come to the conclusion that, even to the end of HBP, Snape is still trying to teach Harry and give him direction, in his own sweet and loving way of course. We all root for Harry and know he's not perfect by any means, but he is the good guy and is supposed to win out in the end. I wonder if the Sectumsempra example was another thing JKR wanted to put out there to show Harry's biggest fallibility - he's so stubborn when it comes to Snape and learning from him. Maybe that will cause Harry a good bit of trouble as we go into the final book and he does something stupid simply because of his feelings for Snape and his determination to not learn from him.
halliemei
13-01-2006, 14:58
Read PS/SS and the very first time Harry and Snape share a class .... you will see what I meant :D
I do remember that scene, but I don't think Harry remembers this lesson when he thinks of an option in class or to save Ron. He knows it from the book. But, we fans certainly remember that from PS/SS.
I do remember that scene, but I don't think Harry remembers this lesson when he thinks of an option in class or to save Ron. He knows it from the book. But, we fans certainly remember that from PS/SS.
I think this is case and point in what I was trying to say - Snape had a power on Harry to make Harry remember things because he was so dreadful to him - as such I think his mind did wash back to that when he heard the word and I think there are going to be other cases and situations where Snape was worse than normal just to get Harry to remember it ...
SnarkologyMajor
14-01-2006, 02:25
halliemei-That spell that was cast at Hermione in the MoM reminded me of sectumsempra also since it seemed to cause internal damage, the only thing is that there was a streak of purple light and when both Harry and Snape used it there didn't seem to be any streak of light. If it was sectumsempra that would mean that Snape taught the deatheaters the spell and I really think Snape is one of our good guys. I know this digresses-but I thought that either Hermione used a nonverbal in that scenario or that she would have died if not for Harry's ability to heal:D
Snape has used extreme animositiy to get Harry to learn things and Harry just hasn't comprehended this-but it's definately in there retained somewhere! Somehow in Snape's thought process he seemed to think this was the best way to get Harry to remember certain things-unusual teaching method but....I think I posted before about the dueling club scene in CoS-that the only reason Snape was even there was because of Harry(he didn't care to be anywhere near Lockhart). The reasons seem to be to teach Harry a valuable lesson-and to see if Harry was a parseltongue. Now I'm thinking it also had to do w/Harry's ability to control animals;)
One thing that I've been wondering about is that Potions book-is it like the marauders map or the diary or the pensieve? Did Snape want Harry to have his book so he could teach him w/o Harry knowing it's him? If this was the case-then on the surface it would seem that teaching him sectumsempra back-fired...
The Frozen North
14-01-2006, 02:28
Sorry Alz but I have to go with Halliemei on this one, I don't think that Harry's use of the Bezoar had anythink to do with his first lesson with Snape in PS but was related directly to what he learned from the HBP. I would go as far as to say that it was so obvious that this was the case in HBP that suggesting anything else is overanylization. Just my humble opinion.
I would go as far as to say that it was so obvious that this was the case in HBP that suggesting anything else is overanylization. Just my humble opinion.
Guilty as charged and no apology or regret!
We are all guilty of that just by being here and breaking outside of written text and speculating and the likes and I for one have no shame!
Things happen for a reason and coincidence has always matter in Harry Potter - I stand by the fact, and I am sure even Harry mentions it, that first meeting with Snape and the things he said sat in Harry's mind - JKR did that for a reason and delivered it in HBP ... so nope, I dont feel it was obvious this was the case ... I think this was something JKR had been planning since she wrote that part in PS/SS!
As for us 'over-analysers' and all ... what do you think to this ...
But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering his robes with blood.
Sounds like Snape cast Sectumsempra back there at James - once again as he was humiliated and angry :p
The Frozen North
16-01-2006, 13:28
Yup, sounds like it but I wouldn't say that was over-anylization, just good observation and a logical, inteligent conclusion.
LOL - sorry I was being a smart ass :D
Kinda small things like that could have set us on the mindset that Snape was the HBP before the end of the book ... although making the link an be kinda hard with such small, minute details ...
The Frozen North
17-01-2006, 01:01
Got to be honest, I don't thnk that I would have picked Snape as the HBP in a million years from such small detail but as you say, it does fit nicely and shows that, despite JKR admitting herself, she often contradicts herself in the small and inconsequetial details, when it's important to charater she has a great memory for the small things. That's what fills the charaters out and makes them so, either loveable or loathable - makes them real!!
You know this is a little OT I know - but can you see the scale of the task in getting JKR's clue - and why sometimes we can be guilty of over-analysis?
I was listening to OoTP again, having just listened to all of the books start to finish and the clues we got during the series were all there - but the hope of stringing them together would have been a real master class!
Take the hand of glory - not overly mentioned etc - proved to be important - vanishing cabinet breaks in CoS - we hear of it in the merest of passing comments about Sly prefect being thrown in there by the Weasley twins - we have Voldemort's comments on defying death etc ... I mean even the most obvious thing such as the diary still would never have lead to horcruxes ...
These are all small, well concealed and not overly emphasised things that proved to be so key later on - yet anything less that micro analysis wouldn't have picked it up ...
That is why I love this place - you will see in older threads and even in the Chapter by Chapter stuff in the Articles section - people were getting these things but not being able to link them ... over-analysis at it's best :D
SnarkologyMajor
19-01-2006, 02:44
She has so many literary tricks up her sleeve-you almost can't overanylize. My daughter's English teacher admits that J.K.R. may be the best there has ever been and will probably be used as a literature model for many yrs. to come:D That's saying something when you look at the portmanteau words that Lewis Carroll used in the Hunting of the Snark. I find new clues everytime I look at what J.K.R. has written:D Almost everything Snape has ever said to Harry is pretty important and will probably play out in the end...
Blanche A. McFusty
13-04-2006, 23:19
There's a unique correlation to Snape's name and the sectum sempra spell.
Sectum is Latin, as it would seem to be. Meaning: to cut, hurt, wound, amputate, divide, part. (I used a Latin dictionary.) Sempra doesn't exist in the dictionary, but semper does, and that means: ever, always. So, sectumsempra is to cut (hurt) forever? Like "Severus"?
Fortescue
16-04-2006, 03:48
I wonder if the quote Alz included above, the one from Snape's Worst Memory, is another clue. Apparently, when Snape was in school and was the HBP, we are under the assumption that he made up the spells written in the advanced potions book. Taking that into consideration and the fact that he also mentioned that others used the spells - remember the other bit of that memory where James and Sirius turned Snape upside down and showed the world his underwear. Then Harry did the same thing in the dorm room, using the spell he got from the HBP book.
Did someone else have access to Snape's book where he had written all his made up spells, or had he been the type of nasty kid who went around shooting spells at the other students all the time and James and Sirius picked those spells up from Snape using them on the Marauders?
If Snape used Sectumsempra on James that day in the memory, did James too know that spell, since he used Snape's own spell on him in the memory? Also notice that they had just sat their O.W.L exams, (fifth year) yet both sides of the frey used unspoken spells, something that wasn't introduced to Harry, Ron and Hermione until their sixth year. Curious, very curious!! :)
Lupin talked about hexes and the likes coming in and out of fashion - I just wonder if Snape actually created it or just researched it and decided to make it fashion again?
Lupin seemed to be trying to dismiss Harry's conclusions that it was created by The Half Blood Prince ... so it could be like Riddle and horcruxes - the information is out there and you have to dig?
I'm sure it said levicorpus was NVBL or something to that effect - and Harry mused how he was not able to do it propely yet - as such seems to point towards it being a non verbal spell ... as such perhaps James really did see the contents of Severus book - that would have been a real glimpse into Snape's mind and may add the weight that he knew Snape was being seduced by dark arts and his hatred of Snape - it was said James disliked Snape because of his facinations of the Dark Arts ...
Seeker615
28-04-2006, 07:51
Sirius also menmtioned that Snape knew many hexes and curses than a lot of kids entering Hogwarts. I wonder if he was taught by his mom or self taught
Ms Prince seemed more proficient in Potions than hex's if HBP is to be believed.
It was said that Snape had a fascination for the Dark Arts - one of the reasons James hated him so much - I suppose a question would be what drove him that way - seems like maybe Snape was always picked on and he grew up with this hatred and so the Dark Arts would seem to fit the bill ...
Fortescue
28-04-2006, 13:19
If you compare the young Snape to the young Tom Riddle, they were a lot alike. Tom was alone in the world and practiced his magic alone. He discovered his talent by accident and worked on it before Dumbledore ever went to give him his Hogwarts lettter. Our only image of Snape as a child showed him zapping flies with his wand alone in his room. We know his parents didn't get alone and they probably didn't treat him very well. Both Snape and Tom had a lot of time on their hands to think up spells and such. Considering what bit we saw of Snape's childhood, his skill with coming up with spells was probably all he had and he tried to perfect that one thing that he was good at, even if it all leaned toward the Dark Arts. It could be why Dumbledore took an interest in both boys, that is, as much as Tom would allow.
If Snape did come up with Sectumsempra and the other spells in the HBP potions book on his own, that only shows his intelligence, something that Dumbledore would have been very interested in.
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