Wonderful and more terrible ...

[Alz]

'You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?' called Voldemort, his scarlet eyes narrowed over the top of the shield. 'Above such brutality, are you?'
'We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom.' Dumbledore said calmly. 'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit – '
'There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!' snarled Voldemort.
'You are quite wrong,' said Dumbledore, still closing in upon Voldemort and speaking as lightly as though they were discussing the matter over drinks. Harry felt scared to see him walking along, undefended, shieldless. He wanted to cry out a warning, but his headless guard kept shunting him backward toward the wall, blocking his every attempt to get out from behind it. 'Indeed your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness –'



There is a room in the Department of Mysteries,' interrupted Dumbledore, `that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you.'

I have discussed this in many ways - I want try and keep this centered on the above and the 2 questions I made below - any debates on the force being love or not etc should take place in a thread that discusses that in more detail ... here (http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77)

Two parts strike me here ...

1. Dumbledore tells Riddle there are worse things than dying - then a little later on he is telling Harry there is a room there that contains a force more terrible than death ... possible link there?

2. It is generally accepted that love is inside that room - but why would that or something similar be both 'wonderful and terrible' ... that is a thing that makes me go ... ummmmmmm

[kashlie]

Hmm...interesting it is...

1. We know Dumbledore has been preparing Harry for his battle with Voldemort his whole life, and by informing him of the room in the DOM is perhaps his subtle way of pointing Harry in the right direction. It may just be that whatever is in the room, is the power Harry has (love or not, it is going to be a kick-bottom gift).

2.
perhaps the size, or amount of what is in there is the terrible part. in small parts, as in its natural state, it may be a wonderful thing. concetrated and studied in great amounts, and who knows what things can be done with it!

Whether it is love, or something just as strong, i have no doubt that it would be harmful in large doses, overwhelming the recipient with it's power.

(Love hurts, as the old saying goes, and for someone who has never loved...infect them with a concentrated dose, and BOOM! consciounce grows, then guilt, then despair...he doesn't die, but then wishes he could...)

[The Frozen North]

I believe that anything can be both wonderful and / or terrible. A few examples: Nuclear technology - power vs bombs; Internet - communication vs internet terrorism or child pornography: Satellite technology - enhanced communication, TV, etc. vs reduced privacy, increased radiation through the radio waves used.

My point is, this force, if it's the most powerfully in the world ( be it love or otherwise) can be either wonderful or terrible. Harry is filled with it whilst Voldermort has none of it. And yes, love can be terrible, look at the atrocious things people do in the name of love, they murder, they steal, they commit suicide, even wars have been fought because of love. I maintain that what ever the "force" is, how it is used is determined, at least in part, by the user and not the force itself.

[SnarkologyMajor]

I agree that anything in excess can be terrible including love, which Slughorn pointed out in HBP-more precisly obsessive love. Love is certainly more powerful than death, or intelligence-since it is based on faith which can't truly be explained.
Another idea though as to what is behind the door could be Truth-Dumbledore said it himself in PS/SS. Truth is Knowledge and it plays into the whole Tree of Life scenario-you know, the truth about Good and Evil. Truth can very much be both wonderful and terrible and it seems this has been an important theme in her story. History isn't necessarily truth-since those in power are the ones who dictate what is remembered:D The MoM are a good example of how those in power try to control what is true and what is not-and The Daily Prophet.

[The Frozen North]

Love is certainly more powerful than death, or intelligence-since it is based on faith which can't truly be explained.

Funny, I thought it was the other way around, that faith was based on love. In terms of religion belief is not the same as faith, faith is to act on your beleifs because of a motivation linked to both hope and love of God.

Regarding "Truth" being the force in the "room", I could go with that except for the fact that Harry is not "filled with truth". I know that this is not a debate on what the force may or may not be but as it was mentioned I thought I'd just answer it - Sorry Alz :p

[Alz]

No problems :p

I suppose I was just drawing upon the links in those texts ...
There was no reason for Dumbledore to have made that comment about the room - once again if JKR never intends Harry to go back there again why even mention it?
I think if she was just looking to explain a force then there was better ways than to reflect back on a room Harry couldnt get access to then Dumbledore semi-explain.
There is always the question of how this force could be represented - but that is in the other discussions :D

As much as I dont really want to get into the exact force (mainly because it will prolly degenerate into a Love debate!) I would be keen to here ideas of a force that could be equal and opposit in approach - love and truth are very good examples because both have been prominant - I would like to think of something to do with choice as well - both can be good and bad - and is always expressed how important choices are.
In with love and truth - what about time - we saw it a few times in DoM and I think that also could be wonderful and more terrible - some people crave more time, others want it to end ... not so much speculating forces but looking at things that can be wonderful and terrible ...

[Boing]

Firstly, in answer to the second question up top, I agree with what everyone else has said - there are a lot of things that can be wonderful and terrible at the same time - and yes, the first that comes to mind is love because it is a wonderful feeling, but can cause you to either do terrible things or to feel complete abandonment or rage or whatever if it leaves you.

In answer to the first, I think that there could be a link between the two things Dumbledore said. I was thinking more along the lines of if the thing in the room is something that can either be instilled in Voldemort or something like that, he would start to feel terrible over what he did (I'm thinking similar to the pain Dumbledore felt in the lake in the cave - perhaps there's a link there?) and that would be worse than death - having to feel compassion or remorse over one's actions.

As for mentioning the room, I definitely think in the seventh book, JKR is going to bring Harry or a friend back to the DoM and we are going to get a lot more answers. There were just too many things introduced in detail for them to get dropped completely, so I don't think it was just mentioned that there was a force in the room and then we are never going to hear about it again. It will be back and we will find out once and for all.

[SnarkologyMajor]

Whatever it is-Harry probably represents the wonderful part of it and Voldemort represents the terrible-due to the choices that have been made.

[Alz]

Interesting concept there - almost like when Dumbledore said Harry's greatest strength was Voldemort's biggest weakness right?
It is possible in the true ying/yang way that the force that makes them whole also represents different sides to each other - almost like in essence divided right?
It would be interesting if indeed Harry had to learn to be selfish, evil and self obsessed in order to make Voldemort loving, compassionate and caring ... :D